Subtle yet interesting show observations -- post yours by AnimalM0ther

Quote:
Originally posted by darthvider:
Please don't tell me Microsoft is alive and well 500 years in the future!

After an unprecedented merger with Coca-Cola in the year 2272, they changed their name... to Blue Sun.

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Friday, March 3, 2006 10:27 AM

DARTHVIDER

Oh right. Damnit!

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 5:00 PM

In "Trash" when the shuttle lands on the floating island, you can see an SR-71 Blackbird flying by in the background.

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Sunday, March 5, 2006 10:35 PM

JYNNANTONNYX

In regards to the scene at the end of the BDM with Inara and Mal, I would have to say Inara looks her most beautiful here. She's just so vulnerable when she looks at him yet still strong. And do you notice, they don't fight!

It would have to be one of the only interactions when they don't. That scene gave me such girly grins, teehee

Also love watching Jayne in the backgrounds of scenes. Adam really did a great job of bringing Jayne to life. His obsession with smelling and touching everything entertains me to no end. And the sweet touches of him watching over Kaylee and braiding the whore's hair - so sweet

"It's just an object. It doesn't mean what you think."

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Monday, March 6, 2006 12:16 AM

DINKY

Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:
In "Trash" when the shuttle lands on the floating island, you can see an SR-71 Blackbird flying by in the background.

WHAT!?

"Th3re !s n0 spo0Ne." -The Matricks

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Monday, March 6, 2006 10:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Dinky:
WHAT!?

I'll get a picture of it when I'm at home tonight. Anything else anyone would want me to get a picture of?

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Monday, March 6, 2006 11:59 AM

CAPERCAILLIE

In War Stories, after Wash and Zoe have left the dining room, Mal and Jayne walk towards the food on the table. Jayne backhands Mal on his recently-tortured chest and keeps moving towards the food while Mal gasps in pain, but funny pain!

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Monday, March 6, 2006 12:27 PM

TAMSIBLING

Quote:
Originally posted by IThas2Bme:
So subtle they didn't even mention it in the commentary...

The Message: Han Solo encased in carbonite quietly watching over Kaylee as she listens to the message on the ipod-thingy from the "dead" Tracey.

OH. MY. GOD.

I did not even catch that even though I've seen "The Message" a bunch of times! That is freakin' awesome!

I am a huge "Star Wars" buff, so I'm a little *chagrined* that I missed it! Thanks for pointing it out!

***

This must be what going insane feels like.

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 6:25 AM

DUTCHBOY

I've seen this on some other sites, but it hasn't been mentioned in this thread so far, so:

In the BDM, when Simon and River are supposed to get off Serenity (on Bellerophon? I'm not sure), you can see Jayne getting off the boat.. wearing his orange wool cap.

I just thought that was so funny!

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Tuesday, March 7, 2006 6:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:
I'll get a picture of it when I'm at home tonight. Anything else anyone would want me to get a picture of?

Or maybe I won't, for some reason my computer is having trouble reading the DVD.

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Thursday, March 9, 2006 11:01 AM

J6NGO1977

Took me about 3 watches to notice that the dancing girl at the start of 'Train Job' slips a piece of paper into Mals hand. Before I noticed that I thought 'where did they get the job from?'

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Friday, March 10, 2006 10:42 AM

ASARIAN

I was just thinking about River's highly quoted "No power in the 'verse can stop me." And I know a lot of folks take this to be cute, witty statement, in which River refers to what they tend to call her unstoppable, "kick-ass" abilities, along the line of Schwarzenegger's "I'll be back" bit or something. But, lest we forget, it was Kaylee who initially said it, when chasing River for an apple (and finally capturing it). And it was River, who, out of her friendship with Kaylee, uses that line on Kaylee after she popped those three bad guys.

From a River perspective (the one I usually take), it's actually really quite a touching moment. River, rather innocently naive about the whole situation, turns to Kaylee, with a sweet smile on her face, and playfully says it, to mean something like: "And see, this is what I can do." But really NOT in a boastful way. That was the beauty of the whole scene; she kinda ranks it with Kaylee taking that apple away from her. To River, it's all pretty much a game (Kaylee even refers to that in OiS).

I'm not even sure why I felt the need to post this here. I guess because I feel this line has been "de-subtelized" somehow; and I believe it deserves a short moment of my time to remember that the original meaning was much more beautiful and tender.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, March 10, 2006 11:00 AM

That moment was both touching and terrifying. The bond between River and Kaylee is special, was tough to see Kaylee afraid of her, although that made it that much nicer to see them playing again at the end of OiS.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:25 AM

STUBBS

just a small observation about Serenity, or more specifically the ending credits. I let them run through the other day after watching Serenity, and was amazed to hear that the very last tune played at the end of the credits is a reworked version of the Firefly theme (minus the words). I think its a great touch, and a very symbolic reminder of the reason why the film exists in the first place.

Stubbs

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Stubbs:
the very last tune played at the end of the credits is a reworked version of the Firefly theme

I really like that version, anyone have a tab for it?

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:01 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

This one follows on from SHAMBLEAU's post earlier. In the pilot, we see Mal losing all his faith as his friends are shot around him and he realises that help isn't coming. In the next scene, as Shambleau pointed out, he's drifting and weightless in space. But there's more than that. He's upside down. I've always seen that as a metaphore for how deeply he's changed. His entire world is now upside down, and he's the polar opposite of what he was before.

Something that's not my observation but that comes from the Shindig commentary. The costume designer mentioned that the leather string Zoe always wears around her neck is a symbol of her marraige bond to Wash. Such a subtle touch, and somehow much deeper than if she'd worn a ring - which in the rougher places she always ends up would be a target for thieves.

One last one, something I know others must have noticed. Inara is angry at Mal when he "hides" in her shuttle to get away from Saffron, but did anyone else notice how she snapped completely when he started talking about children? Even though she mentioned it first, it seems to send her over the edge. I don't know why, but that little exchange alone is enough to convince me that either she had a child she was forced to give up, or she can't have children at all.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
One last one, something I know others must have noticed. Inara is angry at Mal when he "hides" in her shuttle to get away from Saffron, but did anyone else notice how she snapped completely when he started talking about children? Even though she mentioned it first, it seems to send her over the edge. I don't know why, but that little exchange alone is enough to convince me that either she had a child she was forced to give up, or she can't have children at all.

Maybe, but I think she just couldn't stand the thought of him with another woman. Then again there are supposed to be a lot of hints about her past, so who knows.

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:27 PM

EVILDINOSAUR

Quote:
In the Serenity movie... the entire opening with Mal walking through the ship from the cockpit to the cargo hold is shot in one take. No cuts. Not quite subtle, but really amazing when you realize it.

Actually, if you watch with commentary, you learn that it's not all in one take. Which I think makes the shot even cooler. Joss hides a cut in a turn as Mal and Simon are going from the upper hall to the infirmary.

The way the set is built, the 2 floors of the ship are not on top of eachother, so the actors can't walk from the lower level of the ship (cargo bay, infirmary, etc.) to the upper level (mess hall, engine room, bridge) and vice versa.

So as Mal and Simon were going to the infirmary, the camera does a quick turn to follow them, and in there is a cut hidden in that turn to allow the scene to continue on the lower level set, making it seem that it's one continuous shot

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 12:45 PM

COPILOT

At the end of the BDM Inara's dress is slightly shorter than usual and her stance kind of makes her look younger and unsure of her future. I think it's the first time her dress had shown her ankles outside of her bedroom attire. I really enjoyed the effect I never noticed she wasn't wearing any make up but I'll look for it when I watch it next.

An I carried such a torch

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Tuesday, March 14, 2006 1:22 PM

LADYSINGS

Quote:
Originally posted by EvilDinosaur:
Quote:
In the Serenity movie... the entire opening with Mal walking through the ship from the cockpit to the cargo hold is shot in one take. No cuts. Not quite subtle, but really amazing when you realize it.

Actually, if you watch with commentary, you learn that it's not all in one take. Which I think makes the shot even cooler. Joss hides a cut in a turn as Mal and Simon are going from the upper hall to the infirmary.

The way the set is built, the 2 floors of the ship are not on top of eachother, so the actors can't walk from the lower level of the ship (cargo bay, infirmary, etc.) to the upper level (mess hall, engine room, bridge) and vice versa.

So as Mal and Simon were going to the infirmary, the camera does a quick turn to follow them, and in there is a cut hidden in that turn to allow the scene to continue on the lower level set, making it seem that it's one continuous shot

If I remember right, in the DVD commentary Joss talks about using a "memory head" for this cut. I believe they used this same technique in OoG. (Man, listening to the DVD commentaries has taught me a lot about filmmaking! lol)

"Well ya know, we studied bludgeoning in the academy first year but by the time you graduate, you just forget everything. I'm a bad cop." ----Lawrence Dobson

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Thursday, March 16, 2006 8:31 AM

TEALCANDTRIP

Quote:
Originally posted by mattcoz:
Quote:
Originally posted by Stubbs:
the very last tune played at the end of the credits is a reworked version of the Firefly theme
I really like that version, anyone have a tab for it?

This thread has a lot music from firefly: http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=13&t=3751. The threads pretty long, so be patient while it loads.

The music is captured from the episodes (lot of dialog on top) so I still suggest buying the soundtrack, but it doesn't include the end title.

About halfway down the page (look for a lot of yellow), you'll see all the mp3s. Here's your specific mp3: http://www.nightsoft.net/sneaker98/FireflyEnd.mp3

"I also hear that there's something called Firefly, which is either a canceled science-fiction television show or a new religion, I'm not clear on that. Either way, prayers for the resurrection are involved." – Lore Sjoberg

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 6:57 AM

NATEM

Quote:
I was just thinking about River's highly quoted "No power in the 'verse can stop me." And I know a lot of folks take this to be cute, witty statement, in which River refers to what they tend to call her unstoppable, "kick-ass" abilities, along the line of Schwarzenegger's "I'll be back" bit or something. But, lest we forget, it was Kaylee who initially said it, when chasing River for an apple (and finally capturing it).

Actually Mal uses the line to describe Kaylee at the start of the first pilot after talking to Jayne about duct-taping her and throwing her in the hold. I think his line was "No power in the 'verse can stop her from being cheerful."

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:32 AM

NATEM

I also really liked the recurring theme of being lost in the woods. A couple characters say that a bunch of times through the series and I thought it linked them all together.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 11:50 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by NateM:

Quote:
I was just thinking about River's highly quoted "No power in the 'verse can stop me." And I know a lot of folks take this to be cute, witty statement, in which River refers to what they tend to call her unstoppable, "kick-ass" abilities, along the line of Schwarzenegger's "I'll be back" bit or something. But, lest we forget, it was Kaylee who initially said it, when chasing River for an apple (and finally capturing it).

Actually Mal uses the line to describe Kaylee at the start of the first pilot after talking to Jayne about duct-taping her and throwing her in the hold. I think his line was "No power in the 'verse can stop her from being cheerful."

But it was Kaylee who said the exact words: "No power in the 'verse can stop me." And River reciprocated that line to Kaylee, not to Mal.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 12:11 PM

NATEM

I guess it's just another recurring thing throughout the series, we might be able to find another instance where one of the characters says it.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 1:44 PM

GFUNK

I just noticed that this evening when i was watching Our Mrs. Reynolds width a friend.

When Kaylee takes Saffron into her arms, telling her that the Cap is a monster. Jayne strokes Saffrons shoulder.
Looks hilarious.

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Tuesday, March 21, 2006 10:18 PM

GARIM

Hi! Pretty new here...

Here's something very subtle which haven't been mentioned yet. I was rewatching 'Safe' yesterday with my sons, and it was my elder son that spotted this, and we rewinded and watched it again, and had a good laugh all of us.

It's at the very end of the episode, when the crew is sitting around the dinner table. A bread basket is going around, and Jayne is taking a piece of bread and putting it on his plate before passing the basket on to Book (I think). Right when Jayne is giving the basket away, River "steals" the bread from Jayne's plate. Jayne notices it. Shrugs (sort of) and reaches for another bread across the table.

We laughed real good at this, as it shows River's mischevious nature well :)

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Wednesday, March 22, 2006 4:08 AM

SAB39

Going back to Trash and the significance of the fact that the crew are all in on it, here's one.

When Jayne repeats the exact question that YoSaffBridge suggested Wash was going to ask - "if you've got all the access codes why don't you just do it yourself" - you naturally assume he's just being dumb and that he thinks he thought of this himself, not realizing that in fact he thought of it because YoSaffBridge said it not 30 seconds ago.

But knowing that in fact the whole conversation is staged and the crew had planned it, perhaps that wasn't it at all - perhaps it was another "we applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural response from either patient" bit. Perhaps Jayne knows what role he was supposed to play in the conversation, and he's going to damn well play it, whether reality agrees or not...

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 2:45 AM

Wash's funny opening dialogue with the Dinosaurs appears to be a warped recount of the foundation of China. I don't know if this intentional, but it could show the America/China new world thing...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 7:47 AM

ACRAZYIVAN

So, throughout the whole BDM, the Operative is always very neatly dressed and groomed. Even fighting with Mal at the training house, he never loses composure. The fight with Mal over the generator, he clearly loses that composue (going so far as to call Mal "Mal" as someone pointed out earlier). I noticed today that at the very end when he's speaking with Mal outside the loading doors, he's wearing something like cargo pants, which are too big for him. The cuffs go down to the ground around his heels. His shirt is unbuttoned at the top and wrinkled. He seems to have lost not only his belief in the perfect world, but also his crisp, clean personality. He's even soaking wet.

Keep on flyin'

"We've gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero."

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 8:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreatBlackthorn:
Wash's funny opening dialogue with the Dinosaurs appears to be a warped recount of the foundation of China. I don't know if this intentional, but it could show the America/China new world thing...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

That is really cool...but I guess I don't really know how China was founded. Maybe you could explain in a nutshell?

I'll add my own observation too - I was rewatching OoG yesterday (Which was written by Tim Minear - it's the same ep where he says that Inara's line, "I don't want to die at all," is significant. I'm not sure but I think the whole Inara storyline is kind-of his baby.) Anyway, back to my observation, when Simon injects Zoe with adrenaline to restart her heart, Inara cries out and whirls around to hide her face.

Now, aside from the debate over whether Simon's procedure is medically feasible, I think Inara's reaction is relevant to her story. Up until yesterday, I believed that Inara was trying to keep herself looking younger by injecting herself with some kind of youth serum. But if she's so afraid of needles, how could that be? One little detail has made me start looking for a new conspiracy theory...

Julia

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Thursday, March 23, 2006 6:57 PM

TEALCANDTRIP

There is a 'big' difference between the huge needle being shoved directly into someone's chest and a small needle (or Inara's needle) being gently and correctly inserted into an arm vein.

We often see Simon injecting people with needles in the arm. Why? Cause it's an easy effect and people immidiately associate it with healing (if administered by a doc). I have no problem with that.

But I can't stand to watch Mal inject himself with the Adrenaline... and he's doing it a lot less forcefully than Simon on Zoe.

"I also hear that there's something called Firefly, which is either a canceled science-fiction television show or a new religion, I'm not clear on that. Either way, prayers for the resurrection are involved." – Lore Sjoberg

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Friday, March 24, 2006 4:18 AM

ELOISA

Quote:
Originally posted by tealcandtrip:
But I can't stand to watch Mal inject himself with the Adrenaline... and he's doing it a lot less forcefully than Simon on Zoe.

At that point I always close my eyes and stick my fingers into my ears till it goes away....

***
http://forums.ffonline.com/forumdisplay.php?f=19
Creative Writing

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Friday, March 24, 2006 5:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by pingjing:

That is really cool...but I guess I don't really know how China was founded. Maybe you could explain in a nutshell?

Julia

Some big emperor guy defeats the 3-4 different parts of China (not then called China), unifies it and names it "This Land" (China), then some other guy betrays him and takes over. A bit sketchy, I know, but it's all I can remember from the TV...

A new observation of my own:

In the episode "Safe", one of the three yokels that spots Serenity skins a rabbit, this could be similar to the Reaver's habit of skinning things, showing the gradual developement of people in desolate environments into savages.

-GB

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

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Friday, March 24, 2006 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by tealcandtrip:
There is a 'big' difference between the huge needle being shoved directly into someone's chest and a small needle (or Inara's needle) being gently and correctly inserted into an arm vein.

We often see Simon injecting people with needles in the arm. Why? Cause it's an easy effect and people immidiately associate it with healing (if administered by a doc). I have no problem with that.

But I can't stand to watch Mal inject himself with the Adrenaline... and he's doing it a lot less forcefully than Simon on Zoe.

Ok, so I may be given to exaggeration. But you have to admit, it's interesting that they chose Inara to portray that reaction.

Julia

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Friday, March 24, 2006 10:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreatBlackthorn:
Quote:
Some big emperor guy defeats the 3-4 different parts of China (not then called China), unifies it and names it "This Land" (China), then some other guy betrays him and takes over. A bit sketchy, I know, but it's all I can remember from the TV...

Thanks! You learn something new everyday...

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Friday, March 24, 2006 10:29 AM

NOSADSEVEN

Quote:
Originally posted by GreatBlackthorn:
A new observation of my own:

In the episode "Safe", one of the three yokels that spots Serenity skins a rabbit, this could be similar to the Reaver's habit of skinning things, showing the gradual developement of people in desolate environments into savages.

-GB

I dare say there's nothing particularly savage about skinning an animal to wear its fur and eat its meat. There's really not another way to do it. It's the whole wearing the skin and eating the meat of people that's the freaky savage part.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
Ain't. We. Just.

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Friday, March 24, 2006 12:17 PM

But you could see it as a start, remember imagery does not necessarily have purpose in the real world, but it simply used for effect. I dunno if you like to see rabbits being skinned, but I'm pretty sure it zoomed in on it for a reason. Nothing is put in for no reason...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

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Friday, March 24, 2006 12:23 PM

DISKA

a little bit that i like ...

In the pilot 'Serenity' when Inara is talking to her client at the very beginning of the episode about home and where she has come from there is a shot of her looking away mournfully while her dialogue continues to show her inner feelings, that she's conflicted and not truely believing what she's saying. it sums up Inara beautfully.

"Dear diary: Today I was pompous and my sister was crazy. Today we were kidnapped by hill folk, never to be seen again. It was the best day ever."

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Friday, March 24, 2006 12:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Nandifan:
In the very last scene with Inara, when she tells Mal she doesn't know if she wants to leave, she has absolutely no makeup on. I have to go back through the shows, but I think that is the first time she has ever been on with no makeup. It was like she was giving up being a Companion. Again, I have to double check, and if I am wrong, please let me know.

Quote:
Is it really that clear when a girl is or isn't wearing makeup? Half the time I can't tell. Then again most women I know personally make a point to apply makeup in subtle ways so it doesn't really look like they've applied anything.

In theatrical parlance, that's called "basic corrective". A little foundation here, a little concealer there, maybe a hint of blush and powderpowderpowder. You look "natural" but you've been... made better.

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Friday, March 24, 2006 12:43 PM

Quote:
Some big emperor guy defeats the 3-4 different parts of China (not then called China), unifies it and names it "This Land" (China), then some other guy betrays him and takes over. A bit sketchy, I know, but it's all I can remember from the TV...

In the English-dubbed version of the movie Hero, it's shown as "Our Land". However, the actual translation is "All Under Heaven." Either way, the name is meant to connote unity.

So... it doesn't really correlate to Firefly.

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Friday, March 24, 2006 1:32 PM

My very good, reliable and CHINESE friend told me it's "This Land"...May I add that fact he is Chinese...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreatBlackthorn:
My very good, reliable and CHINESE friend told me it's "This Land"...May I add that fact he is Chinese...

We're both wrong. (Not about the weird translation in Hero- that happened, but I mistook the term "all under heaven" for the actual name.)

From http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/China_-_Terminology/id/1299954

"China - Zhongguo. China is called Zhongguo in Mandarin Chinese (Simplified: 中国, Traditional: 中國; also romanized as Jhongguo or Chung-kuo), which is usually translated as "Middle Kingdom", but could also be translated as "Central State" or "Central Country". Zhong (中) means "middle" or "center" while guo (国 or 國) means "country," "kingdom," "state," or "land", referring to the claim that China stood at the centre of that society's "known world""

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 4:02 PM

...I'm gonna slap Ping next time I see him...

(his name really is Ping, don't be mocking now)

Are you sure it can't be viewed in different ways? Chinese words are very open to interpretation...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

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Saturday, March 25, 2006 8:34 PM

FLORALBUNNY

Whome:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"China - Zhongguo. China is called Zhongguo in Mandarin Chinese (Simplified: 中国, Traditional: 中國; also romanized as Jhongguo or Chung-kuo), which is usually translated as "Middle Kingdom", but could also be translated as "Central State" or "Central Country". Zhong (中) means "middle" or "center" while guo (国 or 國) means "country," "kingdom," "state," or "land", referring to the claim that China stood at the centre of that society's "known world""
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Does this mean it could be translated loosely as "Middle Earth?"

(*ducks out of the way*)

I've been waiting for someone to correct Mistressahara about her confusing the Captain's pull-down toilet with his pull-down desk, but it hasn't happened in about a mile of thread, so here's my oar stuck in...

Love these observations in general, and have been sent back to my DVDs (oh, sheesh, do I have to watch this AGAIN?) several times to look for SR-71s and so on.

Anybody ever do a blooper thread here? I'm interested in why the Captain's cut-off ear switches sides in one shot -- can't see a reason why they'd have needed to flip the picture.

bun
-- bastards singed my turtle --
----- why's the rum gone? -----

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Monday, March 27, 2006 10:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GreatBlackthorn:
...I'm gonna slap Ping next time I see him...

(his name really is Ping, don't be mocking now)

Are you sure it can't be viewed in different ways? Chinese words are very open to interpretation...

She'll turn you in before you can say "Don't turn me in...lady..."

Slap...ping... hee hee. You did that on purpose!

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Monday, March 27, 2006 11:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WhoMe:
Quote:

"China - Zhongguo. China is called Zhongguo in Mandarin Chinese (Simplified: 中国, Traditional: 中國; also romanized as Jhongguo or Chung-kuo), which is usually translated as "Middle Kingdom", but could also be translated as "Central State" or "Central Country". Zhong (中) means "middle" or "center" while guo (国 or 國) means "country," "kingdom," "state," or "land", referring to the claim that China stood at the centre of that society's "known world""

Ping might actually still be right... I remember hearing China referred to as the Middle Kingdom, but the word China means something different, doesn't it? As far as I know, our name for the country comes from the first dynasty to unite China, which someone already mentioned, the Qin dynasty. So maybe Ping was talking about the Western name for China, rather than the Chinese version.

Another observation to add to the mix:
I was thinking about Wash's death today, and I realized that Mal has twice saved Zoey's life. Once in the beginning of the pilot, when he tackled her to get them both out of the range of the Alliance plane careening towards them. And once towards the end of the BDM, when he grabbed her away from Wash so that the Reavers wouldn't impale her too. There's a nice circularity to that.

Julia

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Tuesday, March 28, 2006 1:54 AM