Simon's Dad by JLin

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Simon's Dad

POSTED BY: JLIN
UPDATED: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:59
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6526
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Saturday, December 23, 2006 6:01 AM

I've always been confused as to why Simon's dad wasn't more concerned about River. Simon gave pretty good evidence to him that something was not right at the academy and he totally ignored him. Do you think that he knew what was going on with River, maybe from the time she entered the Academy? I wonder if the Alliance threatened him to keep him away and since it seems that status if more important to him than family, he was easily kept quiet.

Thank Universal for airing Firefly in HD at
http://universalhd.com/Firefly/

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:24 AM

BAGHEERA

Simon's Dad is a citizen of the Alliance, and every good citizen knows that the Alliance is making the worlds a better place, and have only our best interests at heart, and would NEVER do anything to harm us.

And even IF he saw incontrovertible proof that the Alliance was harming his daughter, I think he'd be more worried about "what the smith's would think if they knew River had done something to deserve that kind of punishment" and less on doubting the sanctity of the Alliance.

Hmm... i'm kinda reminded of the middle ages and excommunication, or Rome and the threat of exile from civilized lands... the threats of those sorts of punishment were usually enough to cow most objectors into submission, and qualm the worries of most before they even became objections.

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 7:40 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Um, what "pretty good evidence"?

All we have seen Simon show his parents is the letters. Which, as his mother pointed out, was probably one of Rivers games. Just because you know the truth, doesn't mean that it is at all obvious to someone in that situation at that time i.e. Hindsight is 20/20.

I imagine that they could have wrote off, at first, the long period of hearing nothing from River as she's just become so engrossed in her studies, that she's forgetting to write. After that, when the /probably/ tried to contact her unsuccessfully, they /probably/ got the idea that they weren't going to see her again. That the Alliance had taken her for whatever reason.

Then it /probably/ became a, I hope that they don't come after us type thing. So, let's just play the role of the good Alliance citizen and not stir the s**t.

But, one must also point out all the times in which I *had* to say "probably." We basically know nothing about this. We don't know the mother and father characters *at all*. So, we wouldn't know there motivations. One of them /might/ have been being threatened.

But, if you're interested, this has been discussed at length on several occasions. Search the archives:

http://fireflylabs.ca/misc/fffsearch.html

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 8:47 AM

REGINAROADIE

Ah yes, the eternal debate about Gabriel and Regan Tam. To me, this is the juciest unresolved sub-plot of the series and movie. I could care less about what the Alliance's perogatives were towards River. I'm more interested in the elder Tams.

There are many different camps of belief when it comes to Simon and River's parents. I know the ususal belief around here is that they knew what they were doing to River and that they didn't want to disturb their cushy lifestyle, therefore EVIL!!! But personally, I never bought that. I'm more in the camp of "They have no idea what happpened, and if they did, at least one of them would do something." I mean, c'mon. THey're their parents. They created and raised the two of them for so many years and know them far better than the crew. You're telling me they're suddenly just going to go "Ah, fuck em." I don't think so.

In the three scenes Gabriel was in, the first scene has him being very warm and affectionate towards the two. He clearly want the best for them. And in my story YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN (which is really my 170 plus page answer to your question), I turn this characteristic into the fatal flaw that turns him into, and deservedly so, a tragic character.

I get so sick and tired of reading him as an evil character, since it's a bit of a cliche. One of the things that I actually DON'T like about Joss is how in all his works, he so obviously hates biological fathers. Every character's dad, with the exception of Fred's dad in ANGEL, are either absent of a let-down or a complete shit. And I think with Gabriel, there's a chance to tell a really great tragic story, which in my story, he's still a shit, but you realize that he's being a shit to cover up the slow suicide of his guilt-fuelled alcoholism.

So to answer your question, I think there's a lot more going on than what we say, and not necessarily for the worse. That's the short answer. The long answer is my story YOU CAN'T GO HOME AGAIN, which should have a new chapter up soon.

**************************************************
"Wait a minute, you're not Santa! You're not even robots!! How dare you lie in front of Jesus!!!"

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 12:41 PM

JLIN

This is what I was thinking, even a little bit of evidence (the code Simon refers to River using) would be enough for any father to check into the safety of their child. I remember Simon stating that the code said something about "They are hurting us". Perhaps after a call to the academy the dad knew something wasn't right but focused his efforts on protecting Simon after that??

Thank you all for the discussion!!!

Thank Universal for airing Firefly in HD at
http://universalhd.com/Firefly/

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Saturday, December 23, 2006 1:31 PM

NBZ

In an earlier draft of Safe, it was hinted at that his dad knew, but felt powerless to act.

He more or less asked Simon what he expected him to do.

But it was replaced in the end with the current scenes.

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Tuesday, December 26, 2006 2:44 PM

ASARIAN

I don't think Gabriel and Regan Tam are evil; nor even if they knew about what was happening to River, or suspected it, but didn't wanna disturb their cushy lifestyle. Rather, as it is often the case in real life, I think when people are confronted with a difficult situation like this, they choose denial first. After all, admitting something is a-foul, to yourself, puts a responsibility on you to do something about it. And that reality can be hard to swallow. Especially when the one you're supposed to act against is the Alliance. Denial then easily becomes the first and most convenient choice.

Also, I think the newly found datapad, with River's birth date on it, seems to suggest there's no reason to assume the Tam folks knew, upfront, what would happen to River at the Academy. It reads:

"In 2515, her family sent her to the Osiris school for the gifed, where she was recruited for project Oracle."

Protective parents? Yeah, but I’m looking at some fair compelling evidence says they aren't. :) What we see of Gabriel Tam, in the Safe flashback to their youth, is primarily a parent with a vested interest in seeing Simon's career go well and do the family proud:

Gabriel: "You will repay me by becoming a brilliant doctor. That's the deal. Dedicated source box, brilliant doctor." And he's quite dismissive towards River:

Young River: When do I...?
Gabriel: Many years.

Not saying Gabriel has no love for his children; because I believe he does. But social status is of great importance to him. And when Simon is caught in a blackout zone, the fabric of the Tam family appears a mite thinner than even Simon expected:

Gabriel: Are you trying to destroy this family?
Simon: I didn't realize it would be so easy.
...
Simon: Meaning what?
Gabriel: I won't come for you again. You end up here, or get mixed-up in something worse, you're on your own.

Wouldn't know about suddenly, but that sounds awfully close to "Ah, fuck em!" to me. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, December 30, 2006 6:37 PM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

I always kinda figured it was just 'cause they were so loyal to the Alliance. He couldn't believe that they would lie to their citizens, or that they would cause them harm, especially since the Tams were probably a very well-to-do family with a lot of influence in their society. I suppose he would deny that River was in danger, even if it was obvious, and he would've put his social position above the welfare of his family.

---------
Love keeps her in the air when she outta fall down, tells you she's hurting before she keels. Makes her a home.

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 4:47 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Then it /probably/ became a, I hope that they don't come after us type thing. So, let's just play the role of the good Alliance citizen and not stir the s**t.

But, one must also point out all the times in which I *had* to say "probably." We basically know nothing about this. We don't know the mother and father characters *at all*. So, we wouldn't know there motivations. One of them /might/ have been being threatened.

I just found an even earlier shooting script, and it's quite revealing:

--------------------
SIMON
Dad! Forget my record! River is in
trouble!
GABRIEL
River isn't here!

Simon looks like he's been slapped across the face. Stunned.

GABRIEL (cont'd)
We are. And we have to be very
careful what we do. This is a
government school, Simon. People in
our position... it's important that
we show support for this government.
SIMON
You're talking about politics? This
is about your daughter!

GABRIEL
This is about our lives.

Simon stares at them both for a beat, taking this in. He leaves the room, exits to --

EXT. TAM ESTATE / ENTRYWAY - NIGHT

Simon steps out into the rain. Gabriel follows.

GABRIEL
Where are you going?
SIMON
To get her out.

GABRIEL
This isn't something you want to do.

SIMON
You're right. This isn't something
I want to do. But if I don't, then
no one will. So I'll do it. I'll
take care of her. Just like I always
have.

Simon moves out into the RAIN. Gabriel takes a step after him --

GABRIEL
That's < bullcrap >. We gave both of
our children everything they could
possibly want.
Simon turns back, rain beating down on him.

SIMON
But you never gave us anything we
needed.
GABRIEL
How can you say that? Look around
you! Look at this life!

SIMON
You had rooms to fill. That's all.
You used us like furniture.
--------------------

P.S. Remember the BDM? River: "You take care of me, Simon. You've always taken care of me." In this shooting script we suddenly learn it was actually a reference to this earlier draft of Safe, where Simon says: "I'll take care of her. Just like I always have."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 12:03 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I just found an even earlier shooting script, and it's quite revealing:

And b/c you post it here it must be true, right?

Also, by the mere fact that this is a EARLIER shooting script (of questionable authenticity for that matter, but let's assume that it is authentic for the /moment/), means that this is NOT what Joss decided to say in the end. For that matter, how do you even know that this is what Joss wanted to go on /after the change/?

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

P.S. Remember the BDM? River: "You take care of me, Simon. You've always taken care of me." In this shooting script we suddenly learn it was actually a reference to this earlier draft of Safe, where Simon says: "I'll take care of her. Just like I always have."

Or we can reference something from Simon's dad, /that actually made it into the series/. To paraphrase:

"I always thought that it was River that is lost without her brother. Perhaps its the other way around."

Which "suddenly" means that this is just a reference to a kind older brother that cared enough about his little sister to take care of her. Enough that the parents thought that River would be lost without her brother.

As a comment to you, you're really going to have to stop making references that did NOT make into FF canon. Reference the series (in context please) for things to defend what you believe to be true, but stop this sophistry of bringing in things that didn't actually make into the series/movie.

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 1:26 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

I just found an even earlier shooting script, and it's quite revealing:

And b/c you post it here it must be true, right?

Also, by the mere fact that this is a EARLIER shooting script (of questionable authenticity for that matter, but let's assume that it is authentic for the /moment/), means that this is NOT what Joss decided to say in the end. For that matter, how do you even know that this is what Joss wanted to go on /after the change/?

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:

P.S. Remember the BDM? River: "You take care of me, Simon. You've always taken care of me." In this shooting script we suddenly learn it was actually a reference to this earlier draft of Safe, where Simon says: "I'll take care of her. Just like I always have."

Or we can reference something from Simon's dad, /that actually made it into the series/. To paraphrase:

"I always thought that it was River that is lost without her brother. Perhaps its the other way around."

Which "suddenly" means that this is just a reference to a kind older brother that cared enough about his little sister to take care of her. Enough that the parents thought that River would be lost without her brother.

As a comment to you, you're really going to have to stop making references that did NOT make into FF canon. Reference the series (in context please) for things to defend what you believe to be true, but stop this sophistry of bringing in things that didn't actually make into the series/movie.

Firefly is a great series. People, myself included, inevitably will want to explore every facet of it, including the occasional scrutiny of shooting scripts. If you mistake a shooting script for canon, or think others do, well, that's squarely your problem, really. I, for one, assume people know what a shooting script is, and can themselves place it in its relative context. Or, should they perchance be unclear about what it really is, that they'll have a civil enough tongue to ask.

Shooting scripts often offer a unique insight to things that, eventually, for one reason or another, never made it into the series. The content of River's letters from Safe, for instance, where she talks about having gone to a lake last summer, can be related, linea recta, to an earlier shooting script. People like me find such finds fascinating. I consider it a form of archeology: you dig up pieces of a puzzle, that may give you some clues as to things that otherwise (as they are no longer referenced in canon) may have stayed unclear.

As to the shooting script in question, it's interesting in that we, indeed, suddenly realize that a well know line in the BDM appears to be an echo from something that, eventually, never made it to canon in the episode. It also provides a deeper insight into how fragile the relationship between the Tam siblings and their parents really was. We learnt a bit of that in the canon version of Safe, where Simon says, "I didn't think it would be that easy." (in reference to how easy it was to break up the family). This shooting script adds to that, and shows more clearly where the Gabriel's priorities lie. Or, rather, since this is a shooting script, it provides some additional clues as to what sort of characters Joss originally had in mind for them.

A shooting script, especially when compared to canon, is a treasure all unto itself. Because it allows you, the viewer, a peek into the history making process of the series. For instance, the whole story of the Tams having been at the lake last year, and then seeing that, in the end, that whole story line is dropped, and been replaced with Simon asking his parents whether they had a good time at the D'arbanville's ball this year, that's cute. Because maybe Joss thought that the lake story was not fancy enough for the Tams, and that a ball would be more up to the standards of their outings. Who knows.

Reading shooting scripts also make, me at least, feel more connected to the authors, because you realize they're not infallible. Whilst recognizing their genius, you also see how they progressed from earlier drafts, to the product we finally saw aired; that they dropped certain scenes, or plot lines, in favor of other things. And we can learn from that, if we're into fanfic writing, for instance, or just enjoy to see the master at work when we're not. And sometimes a shooting script, as in the example I gave, suddenly provides a "parent" for a previously "orphaned" quote. Your typical Aha Erlebnis.

I, for one, like I said, find all this exploration fascinating. I reckon there's some disappointment ahead for you, in the very near future, as I am, of course, not gonna forego on these quests just because you can't tell the difference between a shooting script and canon -- or think others can't.

I was, my own self, disappointed in the hostile tone of your reply. But that's something I cannot change, either; only you can.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:18 PM

ORANGEHAT

Power to ya!
I totally agree. I find things like that amazingly interesting. Just because it never made it into the series doesn't mean it was completely forgotten, or that it won't come up later or influence the turns the series takes!
I found whatever was said against you(asarian) bringing up these little tidbits insulting and horribly rude! If you (SigmaNunki) don't want to discuss all aspects of firefly then you don't have to read the forums. Who died and made you king of the 'verse? Everyone has the right to post what they think may apply to the conversation at hand.

***I like the idea of the Tam parents being too afraid to stand up to their government, it has a very historical ring to it.

That nerdy hat

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Sunday, January 21, 2007 5:47 PM

DOCTROID

A bit of devil's advocacy here: How do we know River's parents were NOT trying to get their daughter out?

I think the scenes as shot can be interpreted as depicting a father who's very conscious of his and his family's status in the community, and who is at least partly driven by a desire to maintain that status. I believe that could explain his failure to accept the evidence of River's letters. Ever met someone who's come from childhood poverty or at least disadvantage and achieved financial and social success? Sometimes terror of losing that can blind and/or paralyze them.

But I think it's at least interesting to consider the possibility (Occam's razor be damned) that River's parents were aware of what's happening and were actively trying to rescue her. Gabriel's first scene depicts him as an intelligent, loving, dynamic man; maybe he's not as blind or uncaring as one might think he is in the later scenes. Out of genuine concern for his son's safety and career he doesn't let Simon in on what he's doing, he denies the evidence of the letters and forbids Simon to act. Perhaps also out of concern that Simon's actions might call attention to his own! That Simon was the one who succeeded doesn't prove his parents didn't try.

What, I wonder, happened to Gabriel and Regan after River's escape? Did they come under Alliance suspicion? Were they interrogated, imprisoned? Did they disappear too?

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Monday, January 22, 2007 9:52 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

Then it /probably/ became a, I hope that they don't come after us type thing. So, let's just play the role of the good Alliance citizen and not stir the s**t.

But, one must also point out all the times in which I *had* to say "probably." We basically know nothing about this. We don't know the mother and father characters *at all*. So, we wouldn't know there motivations. One of them /might/ have been being threatened.

I just found an even earlier shooting script, and it's quite revealing:

--------------------
SIMON
Dad! Forget my record! River is in
trouble!
GABRIEL
River isn't here!

Simon looks like he's been slapped across the face. Stunned.

GABRIEL (cont'd)
We are. And we have to be very
careful what we do. This is a
government school, Simon. People in
our position... it's important that
we show support for this government.
SIMON
You're talking about politics? This
is about your daughter!

GABRIEL
This is about our lives.

"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

Well, my impression of that exchange is that SigmaNunki was right: Regan was trying to save his remaining son.

You will notice that Simon has never said anything about journalists, telling his story to the press etc. The Alliance does not seem to be the kind of country where you appear on a talk show, telling the world how silenced you are.

In the Alliance, you shut up, or you are shut up.

The Alliance was demonstrably prepared to kidnap the child of an apparently important family, and apparently expected no effective response.

It managed to keep secret the fact that it had wiped out one of its own colonies by accident.

If it can do that, the disappearance of the Tam family could not have been difficult, if they were given a motive to disappear them.

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:10 PM

LEIASKY

Asarian, very eloquently said. I agree completely.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:16 PM

LEIASKY

I didn't read something mentioning this possibility, but its possible I overlooked it.

We don't know how close together the scene with the letter and the scene in the holding area are. Simon said it took him years to get to River. During that time, (from when Simon produced the letters to when he wwas arrested) Gabriel and Regan could have made inquieries and been satisfied by the response they received, where Simon was not.

I wish we'd been given more insight into the Tam family and maybe, someday, we will. Until then, everything really is speculation.

"A government is a body of people usually notably ungoverned."

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 1:23 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I think it's no accident that the first thing we see when we meet the Tams in 'Safe' is the barrier around their house. The world Simon's parents live in is much smaller than Simon's and River's.

Simon's parents are concerned with what goes on within their circles - what people will think of them, the status their children can earn, what a good family they are. Everything outside their narrow world is fenced off - unknown, dangerous and nothing they want to get involved with. It's clear that Simon had a bit of a fight to get what seems to be the 'verse version of the internet installed in the house. And even though he was just a kid, his father was already telling him that he had to become 'a brilliant surgeon' to earn it. Everything about those first scenes shows what a closed off, regulated world the Tams lived in.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, January 23, 2007 2:52 PM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
I think it's no accident that the first thing we see when we meet the Tams in 'Safe' is the barrier around their house. The world Simon's parents live in is much smaller than Simon's and River's.

Simon's parents are concerned with what goes on within their circles - what people will think of them, the status their children can earn, what a good family they are. Everything outside their narrow world is fenced off - unknown, dangerous and nothing they want to get involved with. It's clear that Simon had a bit of a fight to get what seems to be the 'verse version of the internet installed in the house. And even though he was just a kid, his father was already telling him that he had to become 'a brilliant surgeon' to earn it. Everything about those first scenes shows what a closed off, regulated world the Tams lived in.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

I agree with you DTH. Nothing that the writers and directors and Joss did with the scenes in Firefly or Serenity were done without layers of meaning in them.

Asarian...keep digging.. it's fun and insightful and lends itself to engaging conversations about the 'verse. It's nice frankly to see discussions about the show we all love here. So much of the 'Verse is caught up with other things now. Thank you everyone for an interesting thread.

I had the pleasure of reading a speech given at a writer's seminar by Tim Minear... I'm paraphrasing here, as I don't have the entire speech at hand, but I remember there was discussion in it and amongst the students there that there were many instances where what was written for a script was suddenly changed by input from some other writer, or a new idea that would pop into someone's head... then the former thing written might be used later, maybe whole, sometimes altered.

We have evidence for that right here on the site, as the script for the last ep that was never filmed was filched from for The Message and another ep.

Not canon perhaps... but fun and instant fodder for conversation... and that's what we're all here for.. conversation about the show we love.

And hopefully it's pleasant conversation.

Go to www.whitenoisethelight.net for more info!

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Wednesday, January 24, 2007 10:46 PM

WANWEITRIP

I think the parents were written as an example of "All that is required for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing."

They are not inherently evil but by not acting (for whatever reason - fear or uncertainty) they have allowed bad to happen. They have stood by (as many of us do) and said "It is not up to me. Things will be worse if I rock the boat."

In that sense it is better that they were left a little ambiguous and unclear, that we don't know all about them.

We are made to feel about them, as they feel about River's situation - uncertain.

Genius!

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots... SHUT UP!!!

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 9:25 AM

FOLLOWMAL

Quote:
Originally posted by WanWeiTrip:

Genius!

Ah, the pitter patter of tiny feet in huge combat boots... SHUT UP!!!

Ahhh, that's our Joss. Genius indeed!

Oh, and Tim and all the others!!

Go to www.whitenoisethelight.net for more info!

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Thursday, January 25, 2007 12:56 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by WanWeiTrip:

I think the parents were written as an example of "All that is required for evil to succeed is for the good to stand by and do nothing."

They are not inherently evil but by not acting (for whatever reason - fear or uncertainty) they have allowed bad to happen. They have stood by (as many of us do) and said "It is not up to me. Things will be worse if I rock the boat."

In that sense it is better that they were left a little ambiguous and unclear, that we don't know all about them.

We are made to feel about them, as they feel about River's situation - uncertain.

Genius!

I think you hit the nail right on the head; it's all about subtlety. Personally, I can imagine that this whole convo between Simon and Gabriel I quoted, from that early shooting script, was, in the end, probably deemed too spelled-out. Whereas, as you say, the genious is really in having the viewer be uncertain: it could be this, but it could very well be something else. Take the example of this shooting script bit, for instance, for OoG:

----------------------
BESTER
Mal. Whaddya need two mechanics for?
MAL
I really don't. Pack your things.
(then)
She got a name?

INT. SERENITY ENGINE ROOM

MAL
Kaylee!
----------------------

As we all know, in the actually aired episode, Mal just says: "I really don't." Period. The "Pack your things." is implied. Much better this way. I 'spose a lot of this has been Joss and Tim fine-tuning the scripts. The final product is a veritable stream of subtleties, making near the entire gorram show quotable. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:38 PM

WYTCHCROFT

bump for comparison:)

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:54 PM

RIVERFLAN

I absolutely agree with you, WWT

I've already posted in a thread very much like this one, so I won't repeat myself; here's the link if you want my opinion http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=12&t=30663&m=543169#543169

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Remember to vote!
http://www.richlabonte.net/tvvote/index.html
~~~~~
My favorite quotes:

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Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:59 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by RiverFlan:

here's the link

LOL! thanks shiny River person

- i had no idea i'd forgotten to put the link in the bump, D'oh!

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