Beginning of BDM by Lawman

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Beginning of BDM

POSTED BY: LAWMAN
UPDATED: Monday, January 28, 2008 22:54
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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:50 PM

I'm sure this question has been asked and answered. I still don't know the answer.
In the beginning of BDM, the segment where Simon is getting River out of Alliance facility; is this part before Serenity first double episode where Simon first brings River on board Serenity? or after the last series episode, did River get caught by Alliance, and somehow Simon and Mal and crew rescue River in opening sequence of BDM? I'm thinking that the rescue scene is how Simon first rescued River and then froze her and brought her on board Serenity.
I need to know and be confirmed.

Just believe in something

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:00 PM

NBZ

Most likely before the series. This is implied (as it is to get newcomers up to speed), but I don't think there is any proclamation about this.

The ship that rescues them is not Serenity.

(On the other hand... if it is after recapture... it could make more sense for the "8 Months!" remark...)

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:20 PM

THEONETRUEBIX

It's a pre-series sequence of River's original rescue. Joss stated that long ago.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 1:58 PM

SIGMANUNKI

Obviously pre-series. But, this is a point of contention in the community. Some of us view this as a discontinuity to what Simon said in the pilot ep and Joss's "explanation" as trite.

If you feel like knowing why, please search the archives before asking questions:

http://fireflylabs.ca/misc/fffsearch.html

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 2:56 PM

LAWMAN

ah, civil til the last.

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 3:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I didn't buy it either, but the movie had to start some how.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, July 25, 2007 6:36 PM

THEONETRUEBIX

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Obviously pre-series. But, this is a point of contention in the community. Some of us view this as a discontinuity to what Simon said in the pilot ep and Joss's "explanation" as trite.

Joss' explanation isn't "trite" just because some people choose not to agree with it.

The explanation, for those not caught up on this long-standing issue yet, is that for the movie the rescue didn't work if we were watching some random people we'd never see again performing the rescue. So Joss wrote it was Simon himself.

After the fact, Joss adopted the same fanwank many of us out here used to address the inconsistency between the "Simon paid people to get River out" of the series and "Simon got her out" of the movie:

When Simon told the crew, in the series pilot, the story of River and her rescue, he didn't tell them the whole truth, because he was standing in a room full of criminals and strangers, and figured better to withhold some information from them so he himself didn't seem like a threat to them.

Fanwank, yes. But it's also, like it or not, canon.

Well, sort of. "He lied to the crew" is canon now. Why he did it isn't canon, because the last thing Joss said on the mater was that he hadn't figured out why he lied, yet.

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Tuesday, August 14, 2007 2:06 PM

WYTCHCROFT

I always suspected that Simon knew more than he was telling - his vague talk of an underground - himself being 'gifted' etc... but of course joss was just laying ground work - i bet there's many a red herring in Buffy S1 - but he got 7 years to work it through.

i wouldn't probably try to write it but i suspect some of the river / simon issues are being worked out by joss through the Fray and HER brother relationship in the Fray comics. And that is a dark one - a lotta F.F. fans shy from the potentials that joss would probaly excavate.

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:51 PM

FREELANCERTEX

Whoa wait, what is BDM? I keep seeing it and I'm confused.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, August 15, 2007 4:54 PM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
Whoa wait, what is BDM? I keep seeing it and I'm confused.

Big Damn Movie. Staring our Big Damn Heroes.

David

"Looks like we got here just in the nick of time."

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:06 AM

FREELANCERTEX

LOL I like it XD Thanks for the clarification.

__________________________
Have you ever wondered why in a dream you can touch a falling sky?
Or fly to the heavens that watch over you?

"I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar."

A man is least himself when he speaks in his own person. Give him a mask and he will show you his true self.

You can't take the sky from me...

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 9:20 AM

DAVESHAYNE

Quote:
Originally posted by freelancertex:
LOL I like it XD Thanks for the clarification.

You're welcome. That really should be part of a faq somewhere but I'm not sure where it would be. Anyway it's not like we get tired of answering questions around here so maybe a faq ain't necessary.

David

"Looks like we got here just in the nick of time."

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 11:11 AM

THEONETRUEBIX

For whatever it's worth (just to run back for a moment to the original issue), the movie itself provides evidence that the rescue depicted indeed is River's original rescue.

During the conversation between The Operative and Dr. Mathias, The Operative states that Simon "spent his entire fortune developing the contacts to infiltrate this place", to which Mathias adds "gave up a promising career in medicine too".

Those statements only apply in the event that the rescue was the original rescue, and not some later re-rescue -- since, in the event of a later re-rescue, Simon would have already long since lost his fortune and his career.

-----

"I beat up a couple of false b!Xes earlier."
-- Joss, 28 June 2007

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 12:48 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Great mention of it being the original and not a re-rescue. Obviously a problem for those of us who interpret it and write it in our fics as a re-rescue.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Thursday, August 16, 2007 1:08 PM

WYTCHCROFT

having re-watched SAFE (coz of this thread)
i have to say that whole damn family is sinister!

(i'd forgotten how freaky they are with the letters.. mind you - Simon could be playing them in that scene -)

i'm sure there's more than meets the eye all around.

if you see a gap in the 'verse - Fics it!

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Monday, August 27, 2007 11:01 AM

EMMAZULE

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
I always suspected that Simon knew more than he was telling - his vague talk of an underground - himself being 'gifted' etc... but of course joss was just laying ground work - i bet there's many a red herring in Buffy S1 - but he got 7 years to work it through.

i wouldn't probably try to write it but i suspect some of the river / simon issues are being worked out by joss through the Fray and HER brother relationship in the Fray comics. And that is a dark one - a lotta F.F. fans shy from the potentials that joss would probaly excavate.

...

Are you serious? Um, WHAT?

First of all, spoiler-tag that. Not everybody's gotten to read it yet (I have, but I'm a slight Buffy addict)

Second:

Select to view spoiler:

Melaka and her brother are twins, not older and younger siblings, and her brother's an evil vampiric psycho messiah with a thing for Slayers who got all Melaka's prophetic past-vision things, while Melaka is the Slayer, and will eventually have to take him down. As in, kill him. Even if you think of it with the gender roles reversed, how come "Simon" now gets superpowers and is a risk-taker, and "River" is psycho, but not psychotic, and how come "Simon's" probably going to have to kill "River", despite the fact that in the original Firefly/Serenityverse, River is getting better? Not to mention Melaka has seemingly accepted the idea that she'll have to slay him. Simon seems incredibly adverse to letting River come to harm. And the fact that Melaka? Her twin's not even her only sibling, either! The dynamic is completely different. I have no idea where you're getting this from, really, except for them being siblings that were (once) close - which is also explored in a different way with Dawn and Buffy, and I swear to God if you try to put THAT pairing image in my head, I will kill you with my brain. :P

So yeah. I suspect you suspect wrong. o.O

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Monday, August 27, 2007 12:07 PM

DUKUSUKKER

I guess because i saw the movie first, it really wasn't an issue for me. Though after many ("i'm going with...hundreds") of rewatches in the "correct" order, i wondered about Simon's hesitation to acknowledge River's psychic abilities. He's told outright by the alliance doctor in that scene that she is "not just a psyhic...she is a creature of incredible grace." It could be that he is just trying to protect her by concealing that information, but sometimes (depending on my moods when i'm watching) he truly appears to not believe it.

I just found that very interesting. Sorry if that was completely off topic and if it was discussed before. I'm new...and still catching up. Thanks all....

dukusukker
---------------------

"noah's ark is a problem..."

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Monday, August 27, 2007 12:26 PM

CRYSTALKEI

ha! that makes sense...he doesn't really seem to believe RIver's psychic, but maybe he didn't really believe it from dr. mathias when he chatted with him at the beginning either.

of course, this whole thing doesn't bother me, i understand that in order to bring people in, joss had to tweak the canon a bit. so what? it just makes it a better movie for a new-comer.

Jayne Cobb, the Dick Casablancas of Firefly

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Monday, August 27, 2007 1:14 PM

NBZ

There is also the fact that when the people in Safe found out they were going to burn her at a stake.

I could see the dread in his face when River was saying "...cannot talk. Her voice got scared away..." to that teacher person.

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Friday, September 28, 2007 8:23 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I've been seeing versions of this topic around here. I really don't see too much conflict.
Joss does not deny that River was being transported in a cryo box on the tube, and yet was not yet so in the BDM. Seperate stages of the escape/evade plan. And to have the craft at the top of the elevator shaft likely took gobs of credit and "a way to get them out of there" like Simon said in the pilot.
The BDM was not current-time, it was all on that archive recording, in the archive vaults, from (what was it, 8 months?) back before the Pilot.
On tube, the pursuers were the Alliance law, Police/military officials, etc.
On silver screen, the Operative was a new ingredient, and Book explained there would be no warrants, nothing official about him, closed files, nothing like Mal has ever seen before. The Operative just has the cops/military working under his direct.

The triggering event, differentiating the series and BDM, is apparently the eventual discovery by somebody in the ?Senate? ?Parliament? body (whom the Operative works for) that the Dr. had exposed members of the Cousular body to this mind reader, and then she'd escaped. They'd learned this from the Dr. saying so on the recording - the Operative stated that his sin was Pride, and exposing a top official to the mind reader River. This discovery changed River from a mere escapee to the-mind-reader-that-knows-our-biggest-Alliance-secrets (like Miranda) is-on-the-loose-and-must-be-reigned-in-or-stopped-NOW.
Thus the Operative is set into play, and fortunately River's new meds (and shoot-Mal-now gun) allow her to be coherent enough to lay it out for Serenity before the Operative gets to them. River kept saying that the Miranda memory was not hers. She got the Miranda memory from a top official of the Alliance, who had been in the Dr's lab with River.
That's why the Operative says at the coda "I told them the secret is broadwaved, no more point to terminate her" - but he doubts that will stop them.

In the series, Simon is always holding back info, waiting for trust. He starts off as a single passenger with crates, for gorrams sake. He always only tells them what he thinks is the minimal info he can get away with.

Hope that makes sense to you all like it does to me. I just don't see any inherent contradiction.

I always attributed the 8-month delay from River's escape to the Operative's involvement to bureaucratic red tape, and the Dr trying to disguise the severity of what/who had escaped.

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Friday, September 28, 2007 8:57 AM

PACHELBEL

Quote:

I always attributed the 8-month delay from River's escape to the Operative's involvement to bureaucratic red tape, and the Dr trying to disguise the severity of what/who had escaped.

I thought the warrant for Simon's and River's arrest went out immediately after the escape. The Operative isn't called in until normal channels, the blue hand guys and Early, turn up empty. Hence, ~8 months pass from the time Simon and River board Serenity in the original pilot for the TV show to the time River is triggered in the BDM.

So, how long ago was the escape? I've never heard any mention of that, but greater than 8 months prior to River being triggered.

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Friday, September 28, 2007 10:33 AM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

The warrant was for the series, the normal channels.
But the Operative wasn't working with warrants, his was a much more urgent assignment, and wouldn't be included in any files, she would be removed by "sideways" means, as Book said.

If the facts from the beginning of the BDM had surfaced form the get-go, the Dr would have been terminated immediately and the Operative sent out pronto. The potential exposure of the Miranda secret was vastly more urgent than some mere lab escapee.
I thought 8 months was the period mentioned by Mal, like at the end of the BDM? The escape and pilot occurred 6 years after the Battle of Serenity Valley, how much more time elapsed from the escape/pilot until the Operative came on scene at the start of BDM and chased down our BDH?

"My turn"

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:02 PM

WYTCHCROFT

the delay in the warrant being isseued
and between the feds - blue sun - and operative, (urgent assigmnent maybe - but it took till TLB to send him)
leaves room for further exploration by comics, dvds, fan fics etc...

i wonder about Sion's access fake id (or p'raps not) which is discussed in another thread:
http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=12&t=30410

and whether this had any bearing on the time scale...

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
the delay in the warrant being isseued
and between the feds - blue sun - and operative, (urgent assigmnent maybe - but it took till TLB to send him)
leaves room for further exploration by comics, dvds, fan fics etc...

i wonder about Sion's access fake id (or p'raps not) which is discussed in another thread:
http://fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=12&t=30410

and whether this had any bearing on the time scale...

What's TLB? I think they sent him AS SOON AS they discovered the Miranda secret was compromised. Thus beginning the BDM.

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Friday, September 28, 2007 12:30 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

What's TLB? I think they sent him AS SOON AS they discovered the Miranda secret was compromised. Thus beginning the BDM.

my bad, TLB - Those Left Behind. Set a while before the BDM.

Still how LONG a gap there is between Serenity the pilot and Serenity the movie ... i.e. between breakout and operative - it's open to debate...

keep flyin:)

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Monday, October 15, 2007 8:23 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

What's TLB? I think they sent him AS SOON AS they discovered the Miranda secret was compromised. Thus beginning the BDM.

Still how LONG a gap there is between Serenity the pilot and Serenity the movie ... i.e. between breakout and operative - it's open to debate...

keep flyin:)

Mal states in BDM after River's triggered from Fruity Oaty Bars that she's been on board for 8 months. Is there other conflicting info? This was in the "safe word" explanation scene.

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Tuesday, December 18, 2007 11:16 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

From the Official Companions of Firefly Vol 1&2 and Serenity:
in Pilot Serenity River is 17 when she comes out of the box.
in opening scene of BDM River is 16, and in the rest of BDM River is 17.

Conclusions, assuming these do not conflict, would be that River's birthday was in the days between Simon rescuing her and her arrival on Serenity (in Pilot), and she has been onboard less than a year (Mal states 8 months in BDM, but there is discussion about that statement).

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Sunday, January 27, 2008 11:55 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

After reviewing this thread, further comments about the timeline.

1. Opening of BDM script, Operative at Institute tells Dr Mathias that River escaped 8 months ago.

2. At end of Those Left Behind, the Operative is given the River Tam assignment.

3. When the Operative reviews the recordings at the Institute, he finds the Dr's sin, and kills him for exposing reader River to leading members of Parliament.

4. After killing Dr Mathias, Operative has subliminal trigger sent out in Fruity Oaty Bar commercials, after a few weeks (stated by Mr Universe), River enters the Maidenhead and is triggered. This is when Mal says River has been aboard 8 months.

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Monday, January 28, 2008 4:57 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

After reviewing this thread, further comments about the timeline.

1. Opening of BDM, Operative at Institute tells Dr Mathias that River escaped 8 months ago.

I thought you were gonna watch the BDM again to verify I was right about the Operative actually NOT saying that? :)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=31980&m=575019

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Monday, January 28, 2008 10:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by asarian:
Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

After reviewing this thread, further comments about the timeline.

1. Opening of BDM, Operative at Institute tells Dr Mathias that River escaped 8 months ago.

I thought you were gonna watch the BDM again to verify I was right about the Operative actually NOT saying that? :)

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=4&t=31980&m=575019

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

Thanks, that is one on my list of things to check. Modified the above post to specify script.

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