Simon's character journey by MerryK

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Simon's character journey

POSTED BY: MERRYK
UPDATED: Thursday, November 8, 2007 23:27
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VIEWED: 5810
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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:16 AM

I was just thinking about the importance of episodes, when thinking about what episodes are okay to skip for newbies, and saw something new about the episode Safe. It may not seem obvious, but this episode is essential to how we view Simon. Well yeah, I hear you say, it shows his good qualities. True, but it does much more than that: it frames how we expect to see him change.

What do we know about Simon and River before coming on Serenity except for this episode? Well, Simon’s speech—while subjective, the music and framing imply that he is not totally making things up—which shows that he cares for his sister, and also that she was smarter than him and was a brat about it when they were younger. He’s very protective and defensive when it comes to her, and expresses this urgent need to keep her safe. This relationship with River makes it difficult for him to develop any other relationship—River needs all the time that he might have to become involved with Kaylee, for instance. He eventually includes others to some extent among those who he also protects, but when it comes to a choice in the BDM, he feels like he has to choose River. And lastly, his little speeches at the end of the BDM. He expresses regret that he was never with Kaylee, that he just had to keep River safe. And then he apologizes to River.

Now, no character ever remains static: they always have a journey to go on. Without the episode Safe, however, we have no idea what Simon’s journey will be. What does Safe show us that is so important? It shows us that River and Simon have always been close to each other. Since that is the status quo, Simon must obviously move away from that somehow on his journey as a character. Without Safe, though, we might easily come to the conclusion that Simon was not close to his sister, maybe even did not care about the credentials of the school she was going to, and so feels responsible for everything that happened to her. If we had seen a dysfunctional sibling relationship between the siblings in Safe, Simon’s journey would more ikely involve him and River coming closer together through their hardships. But since we know otherwise, his journey must now be to move beyond just being close to River.

Incidentally, when thinking about Simon’s journey as a character, I realized that this is why I think Kaylee and Simon would have eventually come together. Simon starts off with River and River only as his priority, and then starts adding others...Mal in War Stories, Kaylee in Objects in Space, everyone in the BDM. I think we would have seen even more movement in this area, until he eventually gave up total responsibility for River. Not all responsibility, just the idea that he is her sole protector. That means he can start to "do what he wants to do, be with the people he wants to be with".

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:35 AM

REGINAROADIE

That's a really interesting theory about where Simon would have gone in the series.

Simon was the one character on the show that I could identify with personally, so I was always thinking about where his character would have gone and how he would have developed, which I explore somewhat in my fanfic writings.

I think Simon individually would have eventually had some sort of breakdown. It's just common sense that someone whose nature is to keep everything buttoned down and repressed would at one point just snap like a compression coil. Maybe it's a particularly bad day or maybe confronting violence head on and actually killing someone up close (see SHOTGUN TAM as an example as to where it would have gone). I just think that the formal Simon would just break and psychologically explode.

In terms of him and River, yes they would have gotten closer, but I think by the end of the series, when River is more coherent and can take care of herself, I actually think she would leave him. That after spending her teenage years as a lab rat/fugitive/programed assassin, that she'd want some independence and go on her own personal journey to discover who she is. And that Simon would have to learn how to live his life without her. The whole line in "Safe" with Gabriel saying that he needs her more than she needs him would come back to haunt him.

That's just my theory.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:36 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

It's a good point, and something I would love to see in any post-BDM story that gets written whenever. I think Simon may find it pretty tough to let go of his role as protector of River, especially since she is, to a conventional medical mind, crazy and not responsible for her actions.

I imagine that after the events of the movie, River would become much more independent, and Simon would have a difficult time with that as he would assume that River couldn't make decisions for herself, that she'd still need help. It could make for a very interesting source of tension, which of course is the cornerstone of good drama

Especially since you just know Kaylee's going to wade right in there and give Simon a piece of her mind. Not to mention River's own reaction!

As well as showing the responsibility Simon felt for River, Safe also showed how important he had become to the crew in such a short space of time. Space is a lot more dangerous if you have to travel a long distance to try and get medical help.

Even the littlest Joss chicks are absolutely kickass
Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 1:24 PM

PLATONIST

Simon is a brilliant dedicated hard working doctor,
"He saves people", like Kaylee, says. He certainly saves his sister (with Mal's help) from the Alliance's grip. And in return River affords him the opportunity to show us this in Ariel, when he saves a patient in the ICU.

I think Simon has a good sense of who his is throughout the series and movie. He protects his sister (it's love), even when it means taking a bullet or standing up to Mal.

I don't really see a significant character arc for him in the movie, because he already makes good choices and decisions. He is our everyday hero. When he realizes that River may be getting better and that they are all going to DIE, he makes an overture of regret to Kaylee. And it's sexual in nature? which for the life of me I can't figure out why? This time she wasn't righteously offended. What kind of pronouncement is that? I didn't get to f**k you, like you wanted and now I feel so bad about it? Or, I'm speaking your language, now...I get it, sex equals meaningful relationship to you. Did I say it right? How insulting to her and not so much with the character growth for him.

Then when he goes to retrieve his med bag (Doctor again) and gets shot he apologizes to River? A "heart felt" monologue that even brought tears to my eyes.

And at the end, we get the sex, but no words, and River's watching. LOL... again she is in the room, literally.

Sorry, I've just never bought into the fuss over Kaylee and Simon. I never feel the "love vibe" from him, even after the declaration of intent for sex. He may be more open to a relationship at the end of the movie, but he still won't put Kaylee first, and she needs and deserves that. If it is not River, or his service to medicine, it will be something else.

They are young and will make mistakes. It will be painful and sad, especially if Joss writes them.
"Doomed", is what he called it.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 2:15 PM

WYTCHCROFT

well there is a very interesting article on Simon with an arc and as a hero in Serenity Found - the piece is by Shanna Swendson... which follows a similar line to Merry's.

I don't consider such an argument iron clad - but few character speculations are... or can be. The argument about Inara in the Unpopular Opinions thread while genuinely well thought out and articulated also seems ultimately down to the viewers base opinion of a character.

As for Safe... yes it says a lot about Simon and River - it shows the sibling relationship and a real lack of jealousy on young Simon's part (which would have been the usual tv cliche) - what i believe is subjective is his view of the Tam parents. After all, Simon is still YOUNG and a child's view of its parents is always subjective. Simon is the hero of his own tale.

(of course his genuine heroism is bourne out by the rescue sequence in the movie - but there are questions there too).

Post BDM...
i can see a few differing ways he might go... at some point for definite the question of River's independance would have to be faced. Simon would finally have to learn to know and love the REAL River - not the wounded child he has cared for... he may struggle to SEE the new adult River... he may not.

A lot depends how clear headed River is and just what her abilities are and the uses to which they may be put. in one fic i tried to show the potential moral issues Simon might face if he used River's abilities to track an academy torturer. The road to hell being paved with good intentions and all.

My current thinking is that gradually (and as the new Mr Universe) Simon would move from caring DIRECTLY for River to expanding his underground contacts to rescue any others LIKE HER - or at least similarly victimised by Alliance/Blue Sun Covert projects.

Would this be 'deflection' psychologically speaking? Possibly - since again it would mean failing to open up to LIFE ITSELF... in favour of duty etc... he would in some respect simply be obsessively re-rescuing River...

But that would be only one view - and - Simon's passion and feeling for those who may have suffered under the Alliance would be genuine and real.

Either way - his LOVE is for River. Kaylee and he would drift apart - even as he gains a little insight into the reality of a three dimensional flawed yet wonderful young woman... perhaps a first step on his long road to thawing.

Kaylee would move on. I'm sure of that.

As for a breakdown - well after all the crew have been through -- hell they all deserve a BREAK! LOL! But Simon... Yes he is very tense and bottled up - but i think his punching Mal was outburst enough. He can be allowed to thaw naturally, i feel.

I must emphasise that many fic writers in the BSR have fleshed alternate visions of Simon - and been very convincing too. I have personally enjoyed virtually every Simon focused fic.

Finally (long post - i know, i know!) Platonist makes a valid point about Simon's medical skills... it nags me - but i can't myself see a clear way they could be allowed to progress or develop aboard Serenity and his highly specialized medical skills WOULD need to be refreshed or fade to an extent - at least my medical frends tell me that! - i envision a compromise vocational form of caring as a result... (but i could be fudging there P).

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 3:36 PM

MERRYK

Now see, I think there's a lot more to Simon than you're giving him credit for, Platonist and Wytchcroft. Being a doctor is his defining identity, but not just because he's knowledgeable about medical issues, but because he cares about people. It's a discredit to him to write him off as River's brother, the doctor. It's like writing Mal as only ship's captain, bitter ex-soldier. It maybe his main identity, but it doesn't address his other sides and how he might change. I see Simon's profession as merely an extension of his big heart. We usually see it open towards River, but Simon is loving and emotional, if guarded too often. He's no Vulcan—his emotions lead him far from logic and into danger often. A calmly logical person would have stayed far back with Kaylee during the attack on Niska's skyplex, knowing his skills were not in that area. A calmly logical person would not start to help Kaylee after getting shot in the pilot, as she's one of the people wanting to turn him in.

So why is it so unlikely that he could have a relationship with Kaylee? It's not like he's cold-hearted, and he also appreciates Kaylee. I think you're misreading his quote to her in the BDM...Simon doesn't talk about sex, Kaylee does, and I think his comment was meant in a more gentlemanly way (you have to admit that it's pretty vague). When she says "You mean to say...as in sex", he gives a sheepish looking smile that always said to me "That's not exactly what I meant...but yeah, that too." He does comment on her looks in Jaynestown, but in The Message his natural compliments are all about her character. He gives her a special dose of respect and attention, something he only shows to River otherwise, like when he pulls out a chair for her, offers to help her with the dishes, holds the flashlight for her in Bushwacked and War Stories, etc. I also see plenty of chemistry...why else is he almost always near her, no matter what is going on, more so than when he's near to River? Why else are they always having little casual conversations and half-dates? Kaylee's pretty forward in their relationship, but not that much. If he didn't feel something for her, he would be pushing her away like he does with the rest of the crew.

I could agree with the idea that Kaylee would move on...except I don't see anywhere for her to move to. I see a different end for Simon after the BDM. With River wanting to be the pilot, a budding relationship with Kaylee (even if doomed), and the shortage of crew members, I can't see him not agreeing to stay on Serenity temporarily. At least six months. Without Wash and Book, I think Mal will have to start letting Simon in more on the jobs, and also making him more a part of "the family", which of course would make it even harder for Simon to leave. As the end of Serenity showed, and as character logic would say, the crew will have to become more solidified to survive after their losses and experiences on Miranda. Also, Simon obviously needs family, and by the end of the BDM, the crew, especially Mal and even Jayne who were the only obstacles before, seem ready to let him into theirs. From what we've seen, I don't think Simon could leave Serenity at this point. So unless Kaylee leaves the ship, I think she and Simon are going to be forced to make a decision about their relationship. They're compatible people aware of and willing to overcome their flaws, attracted to each other, and with a common purpose: staying alive and with their family. Yeah, it'll take a lot of work to actually make progress with those flaws, but it's certainly not impossible.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:34 PM

PLATONIST

A highly skilled trained surgeon staying on to help Mal with petty jobs, on a boat he hates? And, in his spare time he stacks dishes and holds flashlights for Kaylee. Is this the "Cabin Boy Simon” that I personally would love to hire?

You know, I'm only being sarcastic, MerryK, and I do agree with you that Simon would stay for a period of time out of his indebtness to Mal, but really, unless they were involved in more altruistic endeavors, such as an Army Medic Unit or doing Medical Espionage for the Independents, I don't see Simon wanting that kind of life for him or River.

River may choose to stay, as she is the pilot, but Simon is way to service orientated to be satisfied. Eventually he would be offered opportunities to leave. Good trained doctor are in short supply and in great need, anytime, anywhere.

After, River, I see this as Kaylee and Simon's greatest obstacle. And if given the chance to return to the core, with no strings attached, and resume his position, he most likely would take it and possibly bring Kaylee along.

But, by that time, I think Kaylee would realize that Simon is dedicated to his work. Surgeons are work-a-holics by nature, with a high divorce rate.
Hospitals are their homes, like Simon says, and families tend to be secondary. And, I never got that Simon was seeking family, safety for River and himself, yes, but not family. Kaylee may give it a try, but I have to agree with wytchcroft, she would probably move on.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 4:56 PM

MERRYK

LOL! No, definitely not Simon the Cabin Boy. As I said, those are just small ways he shows that he cares, not his whole purpose.

Perhaps I read too much into what Joss said, but wasn't faith the whole theme of the BDM? It seemed pretty explicit to me, in any case. I think it goes for all the characters, but most definitely Mal. By the end of the movie, he's not just a petty thief. That's not something that was only for Miranda, it was a change that would continue beyond the movie. I think his future jobs will be more altruistic in nature, though all still paying. I can see him "lending" Simon out at a price to Border worlds...cause really, they need doctors! Mal gets good money, and Simon gets to practice what he loves. I don't have such a depressing view of doctor's relationships in general (

), and in Simon's case I think he definitely has a chance, if he wants one. And I think he does. He's never shown himself to be self-sufficient in physical or emotional matters...he may not have been actively seeking a family, but his responses to the situation on Serenity clearly show a need for emotional belonging in my opinion. He has certainly shown that family comes before career in his book, and once he decides that he wants Kaylee to be part of his family, and once River has moved beyond his circle of protection (as I think we saw the beginnings of in the BDM), I think Kaylee will be first in his priorities, even if doctoring is a very close second.

Also, as the Operative says, the Parliament is damaged by the Miranda report, but not gone. I think that over the next couple of years, though, that will be the catalyst of people being more critical of the Alliance. Eventually, I think there will be a movement for government reform. Once that begins, I can see Mal and crew becoming a part of it, underground at least.

It's all opinion at this point, and I certainly don't begrudge you yours if you differ.

Just out of curiosity, how can you see Kaylee "moving on"? That argument has never been explained to me, and I simply find it impossible to see. Do you mean she will stop caring for Simon? That she will find someone else to be the object of her affection?

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:35 PM

PLATONIST

Good question, MeeryK, yeah... I would have to say that she would feel the need to move on emotionally. From what I've seen, Kaylee is not only lacking in sex, but male attention and as she matures she will demand not only attention, but intimacy beyond the sexual.

I just don't know if Simon is the right kind of guy for her, as his attention seems to be divided, like there is always something, beyond her... River, work, River, work and so on.

But like you said and Joss says, Miranda changed everything for everyone on that ship. The verse is going to be different and we just don't know what could happen in the future. And I have to be honest, I've only read a few fanfics from a few authors that are able to mesh both the series and the events in the BDM, stay within canon, and take it to a logical conclusion without me, as a reader, blowing the plotless or mischaracter whistle.

OK... I'm going to the gym now, message me if you want to continue, love to hear from ya!

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 5:47 PM

MERRYK

Ah, I see. I guess I'd have to say that that view is a bit idealistic for me to adopt...I can't think of anyone, not to mention any man, who doesn't have more than one interest. Perhaps Simon might be more baggage-loaded than the average man, but no matter who she ends up with, Kaylee's going to have to learn that she can't always be the center of attention. She may "deserve" that, but in no realistic way would she be able to get it. I see Simon giving lots of attention to those he loves, and I think Kaylee could be satisfied with that. YMMV, of course.

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 7:56 PM

REGINAROADIE

wytchcroft - Him punching Mal is more of a byproduct of being incredibly pissed. I'm talking about a completely unexpected, out of the blue act that gets everyone's attention that shows Simon at the breaking point. There's a difference between punching Mal and, say, grabbing a knife off the table, slamming Jayne to the ground and threatening to take his eye out. Read my fanfic THE REPERCUSSIONS OF SHOTGUN TAM. Thats the kind of thing I'm theorizing.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 9:59 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

River was captive in the academy from 14 to 16. Very formative years for humans. Although she is intellectually advanced, emotional growth follows physical maturity rates rather than intellectual. She thought Simon wouldn't come for her. Her parents never did. She must have given up hope during most of those 24 months. I don't see her throwing Simon off like a blanket. She'll stick by him for a long time, even if she does get all better in the head.

Safe is filmed as the 4th episode after Pilot, which was not aired yet. But it was further pushed back from being the 4th episode for viewers to see, to become the 7th episode for viewers to see.

KayLee would be capable of moving on, but would she? She carries such a torch for Simon.

Although Simon's surgical talents are a perishable skill, he already knew from the moment he freed River that all of that life was over.
I would also point out how inimpressive these skills are. This is 500 years in the future, and Bones McCoy would (only a few hundred years in the future) clearly consider Simon's medical practices to be barbaric and rudimentary. The real world already has some of the Star Trek gadgets, only 30-40 years after predicting them, and this verse seems to have only "progressed" in the field of pharmacology. Scenes of Simon pulling out bullets seem to fit more in MASH from the Korean War.

I do find Simon's work in Ariel to be interesting in how he balances all the needs and skills of all the crew to plan for what he wants to do with River.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 10:53 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:

A highly skilled trained surgeon staying on to help Mal with petty jobs, on a boat he hates? And, in his spare time he stacks dishes and holds flashlights for Kaylee. Is this the "Cabin Boy Simon” that I personally would love to hire?

LOL!

though he seems to like - or be warming to the family kitchen on serenity (in FF -- post BDM, maybe not) ... no, i don't see it.
he would do dishes with River maybe - because then they wuld be playing a game.

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Now see, I think there's a lot more to Simon than you're giving him credit for, Platonist and Wytchcroft. Being a doctor is his defining identity, but not just because he's knowledgeable about medical issues, but because he cares about people. It's a discredit to him to write him off as River's brother, the doctor.

no no i agree there is much more to Simon -- i have tried to stres myself how much cares for river and for the suffering of others. i think you maybe missed that in my hummungus post.

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
wytchcroft - Him punching Mal is more of a byproduct of being incredibly pissed. I'm talking about a completely unexpected,

LOL! when i saw the BDM at the movies the whole cinema errupted when Mal got hit (didn't see it coming) - and the article in serenity founds points out that this punch closes the arc from the pilot when mal punches simon.

i've read your fics:)

Quote:
Originally posted by MerryK:
Ah, I see. I guess I'd have to say that that view is a bit idealistic for me to adopt...I can't think of anyone, not to mention any man, who doesn't have more than one interest. Perhaps Simon might be more baggage-loaded than the average man, but no matter who she ends up with, Kaylee's going to have to learn that she can't always be the center of attention.

a difficult lesson for her - she misreads people in relation to what she wants sometimes.

I believe this is Simon's first relationship (nnot necessarily his first experience) - and they often fail. Desppite his good heart Simon is still fairly callow and Kaylee's interest is primarily built on a class dazzled crush. Yes they have moments of real tenderness, i know. but work and river are the priority - Simon woouldn't know how to end a relationship (cause hurt) it would be down to kaylee.

Quote:
I see Simon giving lots of attention to those he loves,

that would be River then.

Simon's class and background are a big issue here - but deserve a seperate thread mebbe.

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Wednesday, November 7, 2007 11:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I read above where it was suggested Simon's attention would be divided and he wouldn't be able to spend enough time on KayLee. Hate to be the one to break the bubble here, but ALL women think that their men don't give them enough attention. As just mentioned, KayLee will have to get used to it. Even if some people might want this to be some big driving plot direction, it's not likely to happen realistically.

I always found KayLee's proximity to Simon to be KayLee's effort mostly.

Simon isn't dumb, and has lost his illusion of how great the Alliance was supposed to be. Would he really trust them enough to return to the Core as a doctor, regardless of what they promised? A promise is only as valid and worthy as those who offer it, or those who could cancel it with prejudice.

The outer worlds are a bit more harsh, rustic, and tho he might find doctor work there, would he really be sure he wouldn't be lynched such as in Safe? Perhaps the most secure place for him really is Serenity, and not only because of River. He probably thinks he can trust them - and he's got the Jayne thing worked out, apparently.

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 4:43 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
Hate to be the one to break the bubble here, but ALL women think that their men don't give them enough attention. As just mentioned, KayLee will have to get used to it.

but would she want to??? i rarely compare firefly to other whedon shows but the cordy / wesley flame on then flop romance is a good analogy here.

Quote:
Even if some people might want this to be some big driving plot direction,

no/one i know - seems a pretty minor plot point.

Quote:
I always found KayLee's proximity to Simon to be KayLee's effort mostly.

EXACTLY! and sooner or later that effort will diminish. I'm not some Simon bashing kaylee hater. i just don't see the relationship is workable long term. some shiny new character could sweep kaylee off her feet... in fact i can imagine a rugged new pilot... and all of a sudden mal's gettin jealous now! HE likes the attention too! aint just women.

Quote:
Perhaps the most secure place for him really is Serenity, and not only because of River. He probably thinks he can trust them - and he's got the Jayne thing worked out, apparently.

i agree - Simon would view Serenity as the secure option - this would keep him connected to the 'family' - it's just that for him it's a slow process.

One question i have pondered without answer is - Why didn't Simon take River to Haven - THAT was supposedly SAFE. Only the BDM showed otherwise.

final point - the idea of Simon as Hero is a given - the 9 are all Big Damn Heroes - but he is often positted as a shadow to Mal - doubling being common in poular (myth) shows.
And so it's possible -
but that kind of logic would lead inexorably i fear to season two and a new Anti-River nemesis -
Rockette 'she kicks ass too!' etc gah.

My instinct is to see Saffron as the next shadow to Mal - her arc might follow a line (not unlike Simon's) from suspicion to heroism - but maybe not. I see a lot of common ground in Mal and Saff - which is what draws me to her as a character.

scattered thoughts ahoy!

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 6:27 AM

MERRYK

I'm still confused as to why Simon can only love one person, his sister...whether or not the relationship would work out long term, I know for a fact that it is possible to have at least two very strong healthy relationships at the same time. River is an obstacle because of how Simon feels about his responsibility to her, but he doesn't have to stop loving his sister to love Kaylee equally.

Simon and Kaylee are effectively "together" at the end of the BDM, even if it's just in the most simple sense of the word. Simon's going to have to stay on for a little, to get his bearings and decide what he wants to do. Kaylee's still going strong about him, and he's paying attention to her, so I don't see a breakup in the near future. I see more difficult troubles for the crew in the future, culminating in an eventual civil war with the Alliance, and in those circumstances, I just don't see Kaylee becoming distracted by some new handsome face. Unless Simon does something very horrible (in her eyes at least), he's going to be her rock in troubled times.

That's the thing they have going for each other, I think: Kaylee needs attention of all kinds, and Simon will give it to her, even if it's just protective. He might have drifted off to do medical stuff away from the crew if no war ever happened, but during a vast upheaval, I don't see either of them moving along. There's plenty of historical evidence to support that even dysfunctional families (which Serenity isn't post-BDM) often draw closer during times of trouble, and realize not to take things for granted. I think both Kaylee and Simon would realize in a crisis that the other person is not someone you find everyday...assuming Simon lets go of some of his responsibility to River, he will be the sort of person Kaylee wants/needs. You might counter with the "he's too attached to his work, Kaylee needs more", but that's hardly something unique to Simon, and also is part of his greatest asset to a S/K relationship. I think Kaylee needs stability, and someone she knows will never run out on her...it's Simon's dedication to everything he cares about that attracts him to her once she's looked past the pretty face, and it's something that I think is enough to keep them going for a long while. Who knows what would happen after the war, but for as long as it lasts, I see Simon and Kaylee as a couple.

Just from a purely stylistic point of view, though, Joss said the couple were "doomed" because they were young and in love. However, he doesn't just break up couples for no purpose, so there would have had to be some asset to the plot in a Simon/Kaylee breakup...that's why I started this thread, to discuss Simon's journey as a character. So I can see them being broken up by events dragging them in different directions, and they never end up back with each other. I can see one of them dying during a war. I just can't see them breaking up because Kaylee wants to "move on".

--
"My way of being polite, or however...well, it's the only way I have of showing you that I like you. Of showing respect." Simon Tam, Jaynestown

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Thursday, November 8, 2007 11:27 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I meant KayLee WAS the dominant force of proximity - in the series.
After Ariel, Simon gets the meds figured out for River, just gotta smooth out the rough spots.
Joss states in BDM that River becomes OK after vomiting on Miranda.
So River is mostly OK.
Simon will now have more time with KayLee, and River can watch more.
Hmm. How long did it take River to get from peeper to copilot in BDM? Hmm.

Anyhow, unless KayLee finds Simon a lousy lay and untrainable, I don't see a problem with them staying together. With her natural intuitiveness and his scholarly intelligence, their kids could be wicked smart.

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