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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:
In the Vis Comp, but it's not with me now.

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Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.
It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.

As I understand, Shadow was made uninhabitable early in the war, very early.

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Originally posted by nbz:

There is every chance the high command gave the stand down order after hearing of Shadow's destruction - the price was suddenly too high. A bit like Japan after they got nuked in WW2.

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Originally posted by chrisisall:

Is it wrong that the title of this thread made me think it was about the old series UFO?

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Originally posted by nbz:


PS they did not use up the earth - it could no longer support the numbers. Big distinction.

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PPS What about Mal in DU Khang (The Message)? Still reeling from an earlier loss of a homeworld? Possible, but not how I see things.

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.

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It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.

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Originally posted by asarian:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.

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With this I agree.

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Originally posted by Chrisk:

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Originally posted by asarian:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.

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With this I agree.

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Maybe, but... if Mal wasn't already a volunteer before the bombing, then how did he survive the attack? Were there rescues or time for refugee ships to escape the planet? Was he off-world for some other reason?

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Originally posted by mal4prez:


Personally, I don't go with the scenario where Shadow was destroyed before Mal joined, or that he knew about it before Serenity Valley. He's just so happy in those war flashbacks, so ready to laugh even in the middle of a firefight. I don't see the weight of a destroyed homeworld on him. In fact, I think he does appear happy and hopeful. He's certain that they'll win - he absolutely believes! That's what's so poignant, that he loses that belief.

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As for what motivated him to fight - I don't see a desperate hatred in him, a need for revenge.

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Yeah, he just seemed to be fighting to preserve, rather than fighting to avenge.

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They're not so purely evil, just misguided and careless. My fanfictional take is that Shadow was destroyed shortly before Serenity Valley in an accident, kind of collateral damage of the war.

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

NVG: When did the RPG become canon?

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Originally posted by asarian:
Well, that argument can go both ways. I could ask: Why would losing that battle be so utterly devastating to Mal, unless it meant he now had nothing left?

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In War Stories, when we meet the real 'me', Mal didn't take revenge on Niska, either (nor, in the BDM, on the Operative, for that matter).

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But preserve what? His homeworld? Or the knowledge that after the loss Serenity Valley all would be lost?

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But it's hard to imagine them being so careless as to bomb an entirely planet by mistake. "Oh, SIHNON! I thought you said Shadow! Oops." :)

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Originally posted by mal4prez:


Actually, I do agree with you that Mal is not at all a vengeful person. But I just don't see the "homeworld already dead" despair in him in the war flashbacks. I don't! You can see it all you want, but I can't! Sorry. I don't mean to be a brat, really. Just telling my take.

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Originally posted by nvghostrider:
Funny how the workings really make sense when someone has another take. Seems my own writtings might take a strange turn from misinformation.

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Originally posted by asarian:

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.

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With this I agree.

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It was a pre-emptive move on the part of the Alliance. They didn't want it to be available to the Independents. Alliance assumed the response would be nil, not inciting rabid volunteerism.

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With this, not so much. You don't just level an entire planet when you "assumed the response would be nil." Otherwise, what would be the point of doing so? That would be silliness. Besides, speaking of nil, I reckon the strategic importance of Shadow was precisely that: nil. Instead, I adhere to the RPG story:

"Shadow was a prairie planet that took well to terraforming. It was known for its farms and ranches. The planet was almost entirely rural: no cities and only a few towns dotted the surface. The people of Shadow were hard workers and independent-minded. It was one of the first to stand against the Alliance. Most of the planet's young people volunteered to fight for Independence.

Shadow was aggressively bombed during the war in an attempt to break the Browncoats and teach them a lesson; it had the opposite effect."

That's why "No one lives there. No one can."


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Originally posted by jewelstaitefan:

Where was this info? I spent some time looking for this data, and did not find it. Had seen it before, but couldn't find it now.

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Mal volunteered as a result of the bombing of Shadow.

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Originally posted by asarian:
Actually, I'm beginning to agree with you. Try not to faint. :)

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Originally posted by mal4prez:

OK, I revived myself, and after thinking for a day I'm beginning to agree with you LOL! About the bombing, anyway.

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Here's another scenario that occurred to me this morning:

Mal was so surprised when the Independent leadership gave up in Serenity Valley. He expected support, he thought the fight might be won. So why exactly did they give up? Perhaps there really was a chance that they'd pull off a win and extend the war, so the Alliance did a Hiroshima thing to Shadow.

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Of course, this totally goes against my previous argument about the Alliance not being evil enough to bomb a planet. Oops. But then, the US bombed Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and I don't think we're entirely evil (though we do get closer everyday.) It's culturally acceptable for us to take extreme measures to end a war, right? To stop terrorists? So...

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OK, I'll try to stay off the RWED topic since I'm never going there again and don't want those people following me here LOL! *shudder*

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Originally posted by asarian:
Seems to me like, if it happened that way, he would have mentioned their version of Hiroshima in there somewhere, wouldn't he?

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Also, one keeps wondering, what's with BOTH sides leaving them stranded in Serenity Valley for two weeks after the Independence's High Commander had surrendered? Did perhaps some other cataclysmic event take place which had them all distracted, like your Hiroshima thing?

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I once made a pretty cogent case -- if I dare say so myself -- showing the Alliance is not an inherently Evil Empire. But war is dirty business; and killing a couple of thousand settlers on a rural planet near the Core, to make a point, so to speak, I wouldn't put it past them.

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You go to RWED, you're signing up to be a banquet! :)

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Originally posted by traveler:

Is it made clear that Shadow is uninhabitable?

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The term destruction does not mean that Shadow can not be repopulated. Both Hiroshima and Nagasaki still exist after the United States destroyed the fabric of the cities. These cities were both rebuilt.

If Shadow was mainly rural population then it would not take the entire destruction of the planet to wipe out a few small towns and some homesteaders.

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As for Mal lose of faith, I get the opinion that he lost his faith after the surrender at Serenity Valley because no one came to care for the wounded or bring supplies to the survivors. Both the Browncoats and the Aliance left their troops to suffer for a long period of time after the surrender. This is what I understand to cause the great number of casualties on both sides.

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Mal understood the casualties in combat, but to witness troops dieing of their wounds and of starvation was a new experience that shattered his faith in both God and I would assume the cause.

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Originally posted by nbz:
Anyone say negotiations? No? Why not?

Such things take time.

Independents: "We Surrender..."
Alliance: "Jolly Good. W-"
Independents: "... But..."
Alliance (Mumbling): "there is a but."
Alliance(Louder with impatience): "Well what is it? Spit it out. We got a victory celebration to uhm... celebrate."
Independents: "There is still an issue of YOUR PEOPLE STILL TRYING TO KILL MY PEOPLE!"
Alliance: "Oops my bad. Oh and none of this 'my people' talk. That won't go down too well now will it?"
Independents: "Ok, we'll just go collect THE troops and then we will get the final terms sorted out."
Alliance: "You can't do that - you quit! And why are you sending you sending down reinforcements?"
Independents: "Reinforcements? They are just empty ships to pick up the troops"
Alliance: "Riiight. That is what you call it? No."
Independents: "No? 'No' what?"
Alliance: "Do you see us for fools? You WILL NOT reinforce your lines! now just let us get our troops and we will start the shindig already"
Independents: "hang on a minute... I smell a rat"
Alliance: "What? A rat? Where?"
Independents: "If you send your people, we'll also send ours."
Alliance: "But I thought you quit!"
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[Two weeks later]
Independents: "Oh hell with it, you collect your people, and ours!"
Alliance: "Quitter! oh... uhm... ok."

@HistoryPhil: In Bushwacked, the commander guy doing the interviewing also hinted that the War did not end right there. It was seen as a major loss from which the Independents did not recover.

Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

From my understanding, none of these worlds are part of the "rim" but were gateway planets - not core, but not out there close to the vasty nothingness either. Well off, thriving worlds. Up to the war anyway.

There could have been substantial loss of life.

or not if you go by some stories - Virtual Firefly have a tale where there is a different sort of destruction. (You may wanna read it - episode 2x17 on stillflying.net)

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Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

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Originally posted by NBZ:


Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

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Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

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Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

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Originally posted by asarian:

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Originally posted by HawkMoth:

I believed from the very beginning of the show, based on the theme song, and something Joss said in an early interview, that Mal's home world (before we knew it was named Shadow) had been destroyed/rendered uninhabitable at some point in the war. Along with his quest to be free from Alliance control, he went "into the black" because he had no home to return to once the war was over.

(...)

I'd have to look around, but there were subsequent interviews in which Joss did make it clear that Shadow was no more.

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Thank you, HawkMoth! I consider this to be vital information. Can't recall the interviews my own self, but If he really did say that, then I think we're very close to elevating the total destruction of Shadow to the level of canon.

Yes, there' s the theme song, of course:

"Take my land. Take me where I cannot stand. I don't care, I'm still free. You can't take the sky from me."

Especially "where I cannot stand" seems to construe, I must admit, with RPG's: "No one lives there. No one can."

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Originally posted by NBZ:


Also: why does Shadow have to be a small sparsely populated world? The way it is phrased in the memo by Joss, it does not sound like that to me. "Planets such as Hera, Persephone and Shadow mustered up forces - more than half volunteers - to stop..."

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Good question. :) Short answer: it doesn't HAVE to be sparsely populated. Longer answer. I postulate the following:

The likeliness of the Alliance wiping out all life on Shadow is inversely proportional to the size of its population.

As argued by Mal4prez and NBZ, it's rather unlikely for the Alliance to obliterate a population the size of Persephone. Bombing on a planetary scale that affects millions, if not tens or hundreds of millions, just seems a mite too evil. Which is why I suggested a rural place like that, with no major cities, could be not millions died, but 'just' a few thousand. Just to pull it into the realm of "more likely" events. Also, second postulation:

The more folks died on Shadow, the more likely we'd have heard about it.

You'd think there be some mention of it in Simon's PDA thingy, or that Harken would have mentioned such a major event. Or anyone, for that matter (yes, millions died on Miranda too, whereas none of of us "knowed" that; but Miranda was located on the far rim, unlike Shadow, positioned so near the Core). So, this got me to think that maybe Shadow weren't as densely populated as, say, Persephone. None of this, btw, should be considered proof of any kind. Just see it as me thinking out-loud on what might have been.

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Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

In the bar scene at the beginning of the Train Job (I think) the Alliance man says that Serenity Valley is when the Browncoats lost the war. He does not say that is when all fighting stopped. If there was still fighting going on elsewhere it is possible that neither side had the ships available to help the troops in the Valley.

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Earlier I quoted Harken as saying:

"Independents suffered a pretty crushing defeat there. Some say that after Serenity, the Browncoats were through. That the war ended in that valley."

I'd say there's an almost 100% consensus among the Browncoats here that the war did not end in Serenity Valley, but that Serenity Valley was the beginning of the end. So, no argument there.

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Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

Of course, it is always more emotionally satisfying to attribute evil intent to the other side.

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Or, we're just trying to find a proper timeslot for the destruction of Shadow.


--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Originally posted by HistoryPhil:

I have heard the Battle of Serenity Valley compared to the Battle of Gettysburg in the American Civil War. They were both turning points where hope for victory was lost. The Battle of Gettysburg was in July of 1863 but the Confederate surrender at Appomattox Courthouse was not until April of 1865 not quite two years later. In between was (among other battles) Sherman’s March to the Sea, a swath of destruction 300 miles wide.

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I guess we need to know how long was it between Serenity Valley and the formal surrender of the Independents?

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