Where the crew stands on a couple of things post-BDM by UndaFiya

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Originally posted by wytchcroft:
yes:) - MUCH fan fiction here ponders the post-BDM future of our heroes. Dig into the BSR and you'll be rewarded:)

Similarly - trawl the archives here and you will stumble on some amazing posts lasting CONSIDERABLE lengths of time dealing with almost every possible contingency and character action/trait/habit etc.

There is even an entire site http://www.stillflying.net dedicated to producing scripts for continuing adventures (and it's a great site to boot!).

Great, yeah i looked over the stillflying.net website briefly and i really liked what i read. Didn't see it go post-BDM but i can still dig it.

I've been reading lots of stuff on this site's board and there definitely is a ton of great discussion going on exploring the characters and all sorts of what-ifs. Best i've ever found on this stuff in fact, this truly is an outstanding site.

I haven't checked much of the BSR out but thanks for the recommendation i'll head there right now!

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Thursday, January 1, 2009 6:47 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
yes:) - MUCH fan fiction here ponders the post-BDM future of our heroes. Dig into the BSR and you'll be rewarded:)

Similarly - trawl the archives here and you will stumble on some amazing posts lasting CONSIDERABLE lengths of time dealing with almost every possible contingency and character action/trait/habit etc.

There is even an entire site http://www.stillflying.net dedicated to producing scripts for continuing adventures (and it's a great site to boot!).

Wytchcroft pretty much hits it on the head. Those are all questions fan fics deal with, and pretty much every variation, pro or con or in combination, has been the basis for stories. I don't think the fans agree very much about any of 'em.

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Thursday, January 1, 2009 11:38 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by UndaFiya:
There's a couple of things that don't seem to get discussed much that i've always wondered about as to where the crew stands after the movie, and i'm curious to hear what you guys think.

Let me say that first off there is a plethora of fiction that deals with this. Some good, some bad, some canon, some really not. I'm going to try to address all questions with hypothetical answers via my own fiction and how I approach it.

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1. Is Simon still a fugitive? The Operative did say that he told the Alliance "They're not a threat anymore", but even he said himself he can't guarantee they'll listen. But even if not, more important is the fact that he's still going to have to eventually contact or go back to his parents temporarily to explain to them ....
And when he explains to them what he does on Serenity, (since they're going to want to know, considering it will become his life) how's he going to tell them "Yeah i'm going to be a criminal for the rest of my life \m/" I guess he could sort of lie about it and say that they do legitimate jobs, but even for him, imagine that, he's choosing to now become a criminal for the rest of his life. I'd be interested to know how he feels about that, because it's different than reluctantly being the doctor for criminals because he had to, now he's choosing to.

Simon does not go back to Osiris. Though the Alliance has deemed him and his sister no longer wanted as they are no longer a threat nor apart of the sudden and much bigger problem (riots, insurrection, outrage, vandalism, talk of planets pulling out of the parlament, whisperings of the browncoats returning, boycotts, economical woes, ect due to the Miranda video) he will not risk the peace they have to go back. River is safe, they are not being pursued, and above all he now questions if he would still belong amongst the privledged. His views have change, he himself has changed, adapted, and while he still may be proper he's found himself a home as well as a cute little mechanic he's in love with. Madly too, he was too focused on River at first to know it, and then too flustered because Kaylee's customs were nearly the opposite of his own. But he's figured it out (Everyone thinks it took him long enough), and he loves her, and he would't trade her and her greasy teddybear coveralls for all the frippery in the world. It hurts him though to not go back to Osiris, because he had a very close relationship with his father that was ultimately ruined when he decided that River was in peril. He wishes he could go home and explain face to face, but a letter at Yuletide with no return address is all that he can suffice. As for what he chooses, my arc takes the crew out of the black, and his choice to stay with them leads him into having to further adapt to the rim. He does mention it in his letter, honestly, but tells his family how rewarding he has found it to be.

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2. If Inara does get with Mal, will she remain a companion? We're obviously supposed to assume that the two of them get together, and as a good observation i read in one of the "Subtle observations" threads said, when she isn't wearing any makeup in the final scene of BDM it shows she is sort of in "home" mode instead of companion-mode, so we can kind of assume she's done being a companion. But then what would her role be on the ship?

After the events of the Miranda video, Inara was called back to the Sihnon Guildhouse for an Evaluation due to the fact that she was apart of the group the released said video. After much deliberation, the Guild took away her registration and stripped her of her title, leaving her jobless. With chin held high she didn't tell the crew, nor Mal, but moved in permanently and began a very awkward, often heated relationship with Captain Reynolds. They had been hot and cold for so long, they struggled to find a comfortable medium. It didn't help that Mal had been hurt before, and Inara had never been in a real relationship.
Serenity was also infamous from the video, and that was not a good thing for a band of brigands that already had problems finding work. No one knowing she had lost her title, Inara went to 'work' for a few old and loyal clients, but not under the same working name. It made her relationship with Mal strained, he didn't like her working to begin with, and on top of that she was keeping the reality of it a secret, until it finally came out in an argument and bitter confession.
They're stronger now, more truthsome. Inara runs the household, something she would scoff at in the past, but does with great pride and efficiency (because it's harder than it looks). She's also helped on a hiest, and serves as Mal's rock (as well occasional moral compass and one to smack sense into him) and a motherly center for the group. Their relationship is still sometimes heated, though more playfully so, and Inara has further shown her mothering side by adopting a baby girl River found abandoned at a Skyplex orbiting Shadow. The little one's named Meilin, and Inara's bond with her is deep as well as helping her overcome some feelings she's had due to her own mother. Mal didn't like the idea, yet he's warmed up to it, and they're quite the family unit. Overall Inara's happy, though a recent trip to Sihnon (Mal and Meilin in tow) to see Zaira Serra, Ibnah of the Line of Saud (her mother), ended with her severing all ties to the matriarch.

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3. Assuming the broadcast that Mal got out about the Reavers becomes a legendary well known thing throughout the 'Verse, what does that do for the Serenity crew's status? Will they become known for it? I guess the only person who really knows that they were the ones responsible for it is The Operative and any of the troops who pursued them, but i wonder how the crew would embrace it. Would they embrace it? Or would they do a sort of secret identity don't-tell-anyone-it-was-us thing. If they did tell people they'd probably become living legends, but i don't know how they'd be able to prove it was them to people.

The broadcast was legendary, and sent the Alliance into a state of turmoil and unsurity. People now fear that their world may be the next Miranda, or that the government is hiding other more horrid things. It also caught Serenity in the spotlight long enough to the point of others in the theiving circuit refuse to do business with them. There's was a rough patch, nearly on the drift, a job with Badger left them in worse shape than before when he took advantage of the situation. But Mal landed the crew on his home planet, at his ma's old ranch....

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The talk that Shadow itself had been completely destroyed had only been rumor. Shadow had been bombed heavily during the war, as it was home to people of an independent spirit. People who pulled themselves up by their bootstraps, who didn't take government handouts, who didn't like some Alliance moving in. Yet the Alliance had only destroyed half of the planet. From space, it was easy to see, the divide was a straight line between the western and eastern hemispheres, making Shadow like Ying and Yang. To the west was green grasslands, rippling great lakes and a brawny spine of snowcapped mountains. On the ground life flourished. The bison didn't heed man, and the wolves sang their own ballads as the cattle got fat on premium grass. Yet to the east was grey and pallid, pockmarked with black craters. One large black scar that once used to be the rodeo capital of the system and the capital of Shadow, Blue Rock, was particularly visible from space. There, in the grey area, there was nothing but bleached bones and rusted metal, the land poisoned with radiation. Horror stories of the devastation however had been misconstrued as total obliteration, and the government didn't clear up the confusion, in fact they held it over the heads of would be rebels to instill 'patriotism'.
Yet for the most part the feds had cleared out of Shadow. The economy had been devastated after the war, along with morale, so uprisings were not feared. The eastern hemisphere had held the capital, and all of the larger if not commercial ranches. Western Shadow had been left to pick up the pieces of their trade with a mere a fifth of the population left, and it had only been but two years since the effort of recreating what was lost was visible. Two years ago a small government effort had been made to reach out to Western Shadow due to the demand for beef and leather goods on the core planets. The Alliance funded the building of New Calgary and Horus so beef could be mass marketed and shipped, yet tensions had remained high with the people, so for the most part the government itself only kept within those city limits. It made Malcolm's Shadow near the town of Pryor ideally safe for his little crew, for though Simon and River were exonerated, they were all unfortunately infamous which was what killed their career criminal status....

They scraped together cashy money and bought the place, some cattle, and named it New Haven Ranch. Life's tough, some of the more refined members of the crew have had to roll up their sleeves. Simon had to learn to be a cowboy (and eventually skin a pistol... and hit something... intentionally...) besides being the town doctor, but it's just brought him more down to earth and closer to Kaylee. Mal runs the operation, glad to be back home but still wanting the sky. If you ask Inara, Mal runs the ranch, but that house is hers (and she is not shy when a certain Captain needs reminding). Kaylee is the town's local mechanic, and she and her sweetie have struck up quite a friendship with the locals since she mends their engines and he mends their bodies. Zoe's quiet, loyal to Mal, but Wash still hangs heavy in her heart. Jayne's made some friends, found himself a few squeezes. Of course their's life beyond the ranch. Other troubles, a few misadventures that call Serenity back up into the sky. Other pirate crews, other readers. Life, death, friends, enemies, people in between, something about Jayne becoming the sachem of an indian tribe. Heists gone bad, heists gone good, right, wrong, just plain life itself....
And then something about the growth and destiny of some little wide eyed reader...

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If there's any fanfic out there that takes place after the movie dealing with any of this stuff that anyone knows of, i'd love to read it. :)

All of this comes from my New Haven arc. It starts with a fic with the same name and goes to the present (which at the moment is Retribution). Dunno about quality and where I rate amongst the other writers, I'm not Mal4Prez or ScrewTheAlliance or stillflying.net but I work hard at keeping it canon and capturing the BDMs voices.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Friday, January 2, 2009 8:08 AM

Excellent post man, thanks.

One question though,

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It also caught Serenity in the spotlight long enough to the point of others in the theiving circuit refuse to do business with them.

So in your fic it actually hurt their reputation? I would think that most people would look up to Serenity as heroes for it, or maybe they still do, it's just that it makes them wanted more than ever and therefore people don't want to get involved with one of, if not the most wanted crew in the universe?

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Friday, January 2, 2009 8:33 AM

I figure, in regards to whether people would know who perpetrated the broadcast, that the crew would know better than to tell anyone. Alliance government would probably consider their actions in the BDM terrorism, and people knowing would make their lives and the lives of their contacts a little too interesting.

But there'd be plenty who could figure it out, wouldn't be hard.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 9:20 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Way I see it, the Alliance isn't *actively* searching for Simon and River - or anyone who bore any part of getting the word out about Miranda and the Pax - but they're not exactly NOT worrying about them, either. As FMF said, Alliance ain't exactly forgiving. They might not make a fuss, but they'd dearly love to get even. Can't unring a bell, but you can make whomever rang it damned sorry they did.

As for whether any of the crew would be trying to take credit for The Signal: Only one of them would. Jayne. He'd be trading tales of the adventure all over the 'verse for drinks and "companionship" - and it would cause the rest of the crew no end of trouble.

As for riots and revolutions, don't bet on it. The Alliance is going to be quick to downplay the broadcast as a phony, and they're going to do everything they can to dissuade folk from looking too much deeper into their version of history. And besides, do you REALLY want to go exploring in Reaver Territory? Where's that get fun?

Inara: She is what she is. I don't see her stopping her whoring ways, any more than I see Mal stopping his criminal ways. They might get together, but I bet it's not for long. Neither one of them is going to be comfortable for very long with what the other one does for a living, and neither of them seems really eager to switch occupations.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Friday, January 2, 2009 9:46 AM

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
The Alliance is going to be quick to downplay the broadcast as a phony,

Ah that's a good point, i hadn't thought about the possibility of them doing that.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 10:36 AM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by UndaFiya:
Excellent post man, thanks.

One question though,

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It also caught Serenity in the spotlight long enough to the point of others in the theiving circuit refuse to do business with them.

So in your fic it actually hurt their reputation? I would think that most people would look up to Serenity as heroes for it, or maybe they still do, it's just that it makes them wanted more than ever and therefore people don't want to get involved with one of, if not the most wanted crew in the universe?

On top of the broadcast, the Operative slaughtered all of the contacts that would take them into hinding. That got around fast too in the theiving circuit. And honestly if you were an illegit business fella would you really want to work with a bunch of crooks who's friends and fellow theives were killed by the feds simply because they wanted to flush out said crew? It's a bit too risky.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Friday, January 2, 2009 1:59 PM

I dunno, Inara does seem to enjoy turning the tables on Saffron in Trash, and in the next episode she's trying to convince Mal to let her help find a buyer for the lassiter. He actually had to draw a line on that, such was her enthusiasm. I think she likes the excitement of petty theft more than she lets on, and would make a fair outlaw if given the chance.

Much like I don't think Mal actually has an issue with whores or companions, I don't think Inara has an issue with less-legitimate jobs. Rather, I think Mal's problem is that Inara is a companion, and Inara's problem is that it's Mal putting himself in danger.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 4:46 PM

PLATONIST

Strangely, I always think it's Inara who wants to be the outlaw, too, but Mal won't let her because her professional reputation would be stake (ya know the one he looks down on and abhors) And, doesn’t she spring Zoe and Mal out of jail under the pretense of them being her runaway servants in the Train Job?

And, nether one wants the other to be hurt, shot or discredited in anyway; the sacrificial love thingy the show was so good at exploring.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 6:47 PM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
Originally posted by UndaFiya:
Excellent post man, thanks.

One question though,

Quote:
It also caught Serenity in the spotlight long enough to the point of others in the theiving circuit refuse to do business with them.

So in your fic it actually hurt their reputation? I would think that most people would look up to Serenity as heroes for it, or maybe they still do, it's just that it makes them wanted more than ever and therefore people don't want to get involved with one of, if not the most wanted crew in the universe?

think about it - The Operative burned all the safe zones and who nows how many 'thieves' in the process....

also - i just bumped some threads, most of the excellent contributors have also tackled post-bdm issues and it's well worth giving them a click and following their trails.

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Friday, January 2, 2009 8:56 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I dunno, Inara does seem to enjoy turning the tables on Saffron in Trash, and in the next episode she's trying to convince Mal to let her help find a buyer for the lassiter. He actually had to draw a line on that, such was her enthusiasm. I think she likes the excitement of petty theft more than she lets on, and would make a fair outlaw if given the chance.

Much like I don't think Mal actually has an issue with whores or companions, I don't think Inara has an issue with less-legitimate jobs. Rather, I think Mal's problem is that Inara is a companion, and Inara's problem is that it's Mal putting himself in danger.

Bytemite, I think you have figured out Mal and Inara. Mal had no problem with Nandi's profession of whore what so ever. And even avails himself of some of the "trade". It's the fact Inara is the companion that irks him.

Inara is more than a bit protective of Mal and I don't know if she could cope with him getting hurt so bad that he does or almost dies.

As to Inara as a petty thief, she would be a good one. Companions practice deception all the time and she's quick with a psychological read of a person and knows how to use her "assets" to get what she wants.

Add to that an ability to drive a hard bargain (see her negotiation with Mal in OOG about the rental price for the shuttle)and her ability to use words to get herself or the crew out of a jam using her wits (her TTJ rescue of Mal and Zoe for instance) I think she'd be an awesome but inexperienced petty thief (likely quickly remedied).

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 1:40 AM

RALLEM

It is my opinion that many of the fan fiction stories out there are great, but they are in no way stories written by Josh Whedon, and should not be taken as a even a possibility let alone a probability of becoming what Josh would have written or would write. There may be important points in many of the fan fiction stories which are either the same or are similar to what Josh Whedon would have written had he gone on, or will write if a miracle occurs, but I doubt any of the fan fiction stories will hit what occurs in the Firefly Universe dead on.

My opinion as to what will happen to Simon, River and the rest of the crew of Serenity after the leak of the Miranda video, is that Simon and River would not be hunted by Bounty Hunters any more, but any alliance patrol Serenity comes upon or any core world they might land on would immediately arrest them all for treason. I think the crew of Serenity would have to travel to a corner of the galaxy with the least amount of alliance control as possible and hide there for quite a while until time heals the alliance’s wounds enough to where they could fly the skies again under aliases.

As far as Mal and Inara’s future, I would like to think that the two got married and had children together, but I doubt that would have happened that way because the two had a volatile relationship at best. I think something like a wedding tying either of them down would be a death nail for their relationship.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 2:16 PM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by UndaFiya:
Great, yeah i looked over the stillflying.net website briefly and i really liked what i read. Didn't see it go post-BDM but i can still dig it.

Yeah, we've only gotten to a fleshed-out version of the motion picture so far. Season Three (coming later this year) will address the post-Miranda exploits of the crew, and will definitely address questions like "What happens with Mal and Inara now?" and "Will the Tams go home?"

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 2:30 PM

I'd like to think that Mal and Inara did indeed get together, but they're both strong people, and neither are too keen on quitting their day jobs just because someone else told them to. So I think they'd have a passionate, albeit short-lived affair, after which they'd have to find a way to still work together.

And yeah, I don't think Mal has a problem with the CONCEPT of companions or whores - I just think he has a problem with INARA doing any type of such work. It's the Madonna/whore conundrum. Lots of men like going to the strip club, but no one wants their girlfriend, daughter, mom, or sister to work there. Objectively, Mal realizes that it's a legitimate line of work, and a useful one at times (useful even to him, on occasion), but subjectively, he still thinks it's all a bit seedy, and "beneath" anyone he could love.

And I think that Inara would make an amazing thief. She's schooled in things Mal can't even comprehend; she knows strategy and tactics for people better than he knows them for war! In no time, she'd be lining up jobs and setting up plans that would have them all rich, unless Mal or Jayne found a way to "improvise" and screw up the jobs. :)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Saturday, January 3, 2009 2:49 PM

Yeah, I could see that. Neither strike me as the "lovey dovey forever" marriage type. On again and off again more like, depending on whatever it is they're currently fighting about. Always as bewildering and frustrating as it was on day one, and yet, they work together and get along well when they want to. Some margin of understanding, but never complete understanding.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 8:41 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by UndaFiya:
Great, yeah i looked over the stillflying.net website briefly and i really liked what i read. Didn't see it go post-BDM but i can still dig it.

Yeah, we've only gotten to a fleshed-out version of the motion picture so far. Season Three (coming later this year) will address the post-Miranda exploits of the crew, and will definitely address questions like "What happens with Mal and Inara now?" and "Will the Tams go home?"

Cool, i look forward to it.

Okay so based on all of the responses i think this is how i would personally set the post-BDM situation:

Simon doesn't actually go back to his parents, i agree with the idea of him contacting them through a letter with no return address. The Alliance has given up the hot pursuit of them, but they're not exactly off the hook either.

I agree that Mal and Inara try to be in a close relationship but learn that they can't hold it permanently and go to a sort of on-off mode. I also agree that Inara would in fact be useful and a good criminal. (also she is not a companion anymore)

The broadcast does make things extremely difficult for Serenity, they have to occupy themselves some other way for awhile before things get a little better. But eventually, they're able to get back on track. (and the Alliance tries to play the video off as a phony as Kwicko suggested)

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 11:50 AM

RALLEM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Yeah, I could see that. Neither strike me as the "lovey dovey forever" marriage type. On again and off again more like, depending on whatever it is they're currently fighting about. Always as bewildering and frustrating as it was on day one, and yet, they work together and get along well when they want to. Some margin of understanding, but never complete understanding.

I agree with you here Bytemite but if the two were to have a child together I also think they would be strong enough to compromise on their beliefs and happiness for the betterment of that child. Isn’t that what marriage is all about? First you fight for the stupid stuff and then for the important stuff only to compromise on everything.

http://swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:07 PM

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I agree with you here Bytemite but if the two were to have a child together I also think they would be strong enough to compromise on their beliefs and happiness for the betterment of that child. Isn’t that what marriage is all about? First you fight for the stupid stuff and then for the important stuff only to compromise on everything.

With the said on-off relationship and only a margin of understanding between each other, i don't think they would ever even reach the point where having a child is something thinkable though.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:13 PM

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The broadcast does make things extremely difficult for Serenity, they have to occupy themselves some other way for awhile before things get a little better. But eventually, they're able to get back on track. (and the Alliance tries to play the video off as a phony as Kwicko suggested)

A quick and easy solution - relatively, anyway - would be to simply not be in Serenity for a few years. Repaint the ship, rename it, and pick up a few less-than-legal transponders for it. We know that Wash was able to at least clone the transponder, since he more than once sent out Cry-Babies with bogus transponders in them (SEVEN of them in one shot in the movie).

So Serenity would be a different ship, and the crew could likely also be different people - at least for a time. I'm sure Inara wouldn't mind being known as Saffron. ;)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 5:27 PM

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Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

The broadcast does make things extremely difficult for Serenity, they have to occupy themselves some other way for awhile before things get a little better. But eventually, they're able to get back on track. (and the Alliance tries to play the video off as a phony as Kwicko suggested)

A quick and easy solution - relatively, anyway - would be to simply not be in Serenity for a few years. Repaint the ship, rename it, and pick up a few less-than-legal transponders for it. We know that Wash was able to at least clone the transponder, since he more than once sent out Cry-Babies with bogus transponders in them (SEVEN of them in one shot in the movie).

So Serenity would be a different ship, and the crew could likely also be different people - at least for a time. I'm sure Inara wouldn't mind being known as Saffron. ;)

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

That would all work well, but there is one big problem left that they can't change about their identities; their faces. They might run the risk of people still being able to recognize them despite changed names.

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Sunday, January 4, 2009 7:50 PM

Well, their regular faces would be handy if there are still any of their old contacts left alive, as it would make them easier to deal with, as they already know Mal and crew, but wouldn't recognize their new names or their ship.

And other than that, the only people who would be likely to recognize them would be fairly high up in the Alliance heirarchy, because they'd be privy to the information about The Signal and Miranda and all of that mess - and those people would be few and far between, I'd bet. Like was said earlier, I don't think the Alliance is really calling off the hunt for them, but neither are they ramping up the search with wanted posters (or waves, if you will) spread all over the 'verse. They WANT to find them, but they can't really push it too hard, lest people start giving credence to WHY they want them, and start asking hard questions.

If there are still any of their old contacts around who will deal with them - and amongst outlaws, there are ALWAYS those who will take the risk if the price is right - they'll be comforted by faces they recognize, even if everything else says they're not who they are.

In other words, a crew that was already on the raggedy edge and living under the radar now has to go even further under the radar. This could have some positive implications, too; since the Alliance can't look too hard for them, many of the regular old Alliance folk won't even know they're wanted for anything, and won't take notice of them at all. That leaves the crew more free to do jobs closer to the core planets. :)

'Course, the Alliance might have other ideas. They might put out APBs and wanted notices on them anyway, and just invent some slew of bogus charges to get folks to look for them...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 7:18 PM

IMHO, Blue Sun invested a lot of time and money in River and I think they would want to get some of that investment back. While the Parliment was discredited, there was nothing to indicate Blue Sun's involvment (They were there, but covered their tracks, letting parliment take the heat). If they were cunning, they would help convince parliment that the Tams were, indeed, no further threat in order to get them to relax their vigelance. Maybe they would convince the elder Tams to call a reconciliation with their children, or maybe post bounty hunters on verious worlds in waiting for their inevitable slip up. It's an idea that could spawn many stories.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 9:50 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
IMHO, Blue Sun invested a lot of time and money in River and I think they would want to get some of that investment back. While the Parliment was discredited, there was nothing to indicate Blue Sun's involvment (They were there, but covered their tracks, letting parliment take the heat). If they were cunning, they would help convince parliment that the Tams were, indeed, no further threat in order to get them to relax their vigelance. Maybe they would convince the elder Tams to call a reconciliation with their children, or maybe post bounty hunters on verious worlds in waiting for their inevitable slip up. It's an idea that could spawn many stories.

But it doesn't really make sense. Now that they can't rely on government rescources to do their work for them, and it's been shown that a single bounty hunter is NOT the solution, they would need to invest even more money to try and get River back. But by now River would be less of an asset and more of a liability. There is no kind of illusion anymore, no matter how small, that River might not be determined to get out of there first chance she gets - and would have help doing so.

By the time of the movie their concern, we have learned, is not about getting River back to use her, but to keep down any information she may carry. She wasn't the only one they trained there, after all. I think it would make greater financial and general sense to cut their losses and either ignore her, post-Miranda, or send someone to kill her, rather than bring her back. I can buy setting a trap to kill River more than I can buy them trying to get her back.

Thinking that getting her back would be extremely valuable to them is kind of colored by our own love for River, but it's not really realistic.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 10:22 PM

Well, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with your well presented point. Still, I can't see her being let off the hook--Like the operative said "they are not forgiving". If nothing else, she could be made an example of what happens to someone who brakes out of their appointed mold.

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Tuesday, January 6, 2009 10:39 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
Well, I'm afraid I'll have to agree with your well presented point. Still, I can't see her being let off the hook--Like the operative said "they are not forgiving". If nothing else, she could be made an example of what happens to someone who brakes out of their appointed mold.

I'd love to see this play out over the background of a disintegrating partnership between Alliance and Blue Sun, maybe having internal investigations going on at high government level in the light of the Miranda scandal, Blue Sun wheeling to erase evidence, high up Alliance officials under investigation having "accidents" or disappearing with the help of Blue Sun. The underground group wo helped Simon might try to provide evidence against Blue Sun and try to involve Simon and River in some way to get them copies of the evidence to back up their story should it ever come to that..

And amid all this Blue Sun might use the other "subjects" to do their clean-up work, since the government won't likely accept their use anymore. It'd be quite heart-breaking so see kids like River killing the people who tried to save them, PLUS they would actually be River's match, and even while threatened with death she would be in quite the moral dilemma to kill someone who went through all that she did.

And it'd be morbidly fun to see the kind of complex strategies another subject might come up with to trap River - and in the end, it may not be River's skills that save the day, but the same thing that saved her: human kindness. Seeing their own suffering reflected in River's mind would HAVE to have an effect on another Reader-weapon, right?

Hmm!

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 8:48 AM

I wonder, how many "students" did the Academy have? It couldn't have been more than two score at most, given the apparent criteria. Then there is the question of how many would be ready to deploy, given the elapsed time (8 months)between her rescue and the events of the BDM.
When being "inspected", Dr. Mathias said that River was his star pupil, so anyone they sent would be inferior in some aspect or other. I see your point about the alliance not wanting to accept the use of those "Weapons" but, I don't agree. They would need them even more than ever, considering the political situation they would be in. In either case, there would be the potential for some embarassing problems, especially if there is no direct line of communication between the two. One idea is what would happen if a "Student" tried to hit an Operative. Hummmm, that is fun to contemplate. I also wonder if any of River's "Classmates" would turn their coats, or go rogue when not under close control. I believe that the potential is there.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:28 AM

My impression is that there were a bunch of different programs at the academy, and that River was in a small class participating in the top secret accelerated program.

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 9:54 AM

I agree with your assessment and with River the best of the best, they can't send many (if any) after her but, as I said, there is the potential for one of her fellows to go rogue and that would make for a great story in itself. I got the impression that the "students" were kept seperated, but if not, how about one that is no longer under control but desperate to contact River?

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 1:10 PM

It would be, especially if it was a game of tactics and counter-strategy, each trying to anticipate each other. Then the final showdown. :)

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Wednesday, January 7, 2009 1:27 PM

Well, it would be a good story line. Anybody got their pencils out?

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 1:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
I wonder, how many "students" did the Academy have? It couldn't have been more than two score at most, given the apparent criteria. Then there is the question of how many would be ready to deploy, given the elapsed time (8 months)between her rescue and the events of the BDM.

For all we know, the program has been going for a couple of years already, so there may be students ready. Who's to say they recruited them all at the same time?

Quote:

When being "inspected", Dr. Mathias said that River was his star pupil, so anyone they sent would be inferior in some aspect or other.

But it wouldn't necessarily be a dramatic inferiority and we don't know what 8 months of additional training might have done for other students. Plus, River's training was never completed, so while she may have been the star pupil, she is both "ouf out training" for 8 months and may never have realized her full intended potential while there. Like a highschool dropout who missed out on some physics and history classes, perhaps. Except here it'd be controlling her mind-reading and such. Medication now likely differs wildly from what the Academy gave her, too.

We can't assume that River is still superior to every other subject there. Freer, happier, healthier.. but necessarily superior?

Quote:

I see your point about the alliance not wanting to accept the use of those "Weapons" but, I don't agree. They would need them even more than ever, considering the political situation they would be in.

Yes, but I don't think the Alliance is one uniform political entity and everyone down to the littlest mayor would have approved of Miranda. I think the pro-Miranda crowd was a small, secret and elitist faction within the top spheres of the Alliance (KEY members of parliament) and with Miranda coming to light, this faction may well be under intense investigation by the less psychopathic Alliance higher ups and THOSE would not really be the same costumers for the Blue Sun product of crazy assassins as the pro-Miranda faction had been.

If the non-Miranda factions do it right, they can clean up the pro-Miranda faction and be hailed as reformers by the public without the concept of the Alliance having to suffer much at all and no assassinations on their part would be required.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 8:23 AM

The point about the "key members of parliment" is that it's like cornering a wounded dragon. They are still powerful and would not let go of their power without a serious fight and remember that in higher government it's power--power to the faction/wing/party that put them there--that comes first. This is a Lockeian (could that be a real word?) concept but it plays out even today. So the question remains, to what end would they go to retain their power. Blue Sun is the question. How deeply are these "Key Members" involved with the running of the maga-corperation? We have had recient examples of Highly placed government officials with control of major contractors and I don't see things changing in the future, human nature being what it is. Sure, if Blue Sun were smart and independant of their control, they would jump on the reformer bandwagon with no hesitation, but how much autonomy do they have, or what steps would they take to gain it? I am reminded of the Deathbed quary made by General secretary Yuri Andropov, "Does power corrupt us or do we corrupt power?"

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 9:17 AM

I wasn't referring to Blue Sun being part of the reform.

To me, Blue Sun is a private government contractor, run at its very top by people whose ideology runs along the lines of the Miranda experiment.

One faction of the Alliance government, maybe a party, maybe a secret group of merely like-minded, shares this ideology and uses their governmental power and the facilities of Blue Sun to experiment with things that clearly go against the legal creed of the Alliance: using teenagers or drugging their population into submission. The other factions of the Alliance government are likely not aware of this at all and the general level of intransparancy and confidentiality of such a massive and slightly overcontrolling government makes it easy to keep anyone suspicious from looking too close, as well.

So if there are Reformers, it'll be other factions within the Parliament, while Blue Sun will try to do their best to cover up their aspect of involvement in order to both avoid prosecution and to keep their profitable contracts - without the slightest intention of letting go of their ideology. (Hopefully not successfully.)

The main baddy I see here is Blue Sun, with the catastrophic aid of like-minded politicians. Not politicians using Blue Sun, but the other way around. I think Miranda and River wouldn't have happened without Blue Sun because it could provide private facilities for experiments that most of the scientists involved probably had not a single idea about weren't really govern-sanctioned, and they couldn't talk about it because.. well, death.

I bet Blue Sun covertly paid for war propaganda after Miranda went bad to drown out more reasonable voices and speed up the start of the war in what must have been a building conflict at the time, to cover up their mistake.

That's my view of this whole mess, anyway. Partly fuelled because I really do not buy that the Alliance is fully rotten to its core. They made a terrible, awful and greedy mistake thinking that forced Unification was a just cause, and Mal rightfully hates them for it, but most of his misgivings I think are negative bias based on war experiences, and the evil things perpetrated against River and Miranda are sick "exceptions", born out of private, not institutional, corruption.

I hope this clears up our misunderstanding about my personal view of the relationship between Blue Sun and the Alliance. Shutting up now!

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 9:44 AM

Well, we know New Kashmir was about ten years before the start of firefly, and we also know Reavers appeared about ten years ago, and that Miranda happened about ten years ago.

So yeah, kinda spooky... But we don't know when the war started exactly, there could have been other campaigns in the years prior. Government mistakes are easily covered up by the process of war, too. It could be either way, declaration or actual war fighting being the distraction. But I like the way you think here!

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 12:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, we know New Kashmir was about ten years before the start of firefly, and we also know Reavers appeared about ten years ago, and that Miranda happened about ten years ago.

So yeah, kinda spooky... But we don't know when the war started exactly, there could have been other campaigns in the years prior. Government mistakes are easily covered up by the process of war, too. It could be either way, declaration or actual war fighting being the distraction. But I like the way you think here!

It all seems to be happening in 2506, eh? Cursed year. In the movie, Zoe guesses that the Miranda "terraforming failure" was right before the war. Mal guesses the scientist's message to be 12 years old, all point to 2506, like you say. New Kasmir must have happened a little later than that.

So I guess the Blue Sun helping the start of the war along may be a bit of a stretch, as it seems to have been coming along fast, anyway. Didn't hurt them, though, in terms of distractions. Anyway, it's likely that the same school of thought who cooked up Miranda would be part of the no doubt sizable "Yay Unification war!" section. More planets to purify. Ugh.

GOD, I wish they had had the time to create a flashback episode that deals with the crew during the war, giving us a ton of perspectives. Five-year-old River and maybe 12-year-old Simon we have seen, but barely-adult Wash contrasted with Zoe would be amazing, because of how vastly different their lives were. I bet Wash grew up semi-neutrally pro-Alliance.

Similarly 17-year-old Inara and 20-year-old Mal. Pro-Unification propaganda blasting from one cortex screen, anti-Unification propaganda from another. (No matter whose cause is right, there is always propaganda, right?) One goes off to war, another sees young soldiers off from the midst of tense Coreworld politics. And oh, the mystery of Book. Gah!

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 7:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
I wasn't referring to Blue Sun being part of the reform.

To me, Blue Sun is a private government contractor, run at its very top by people whose ideology runs along the lines of the Miranda experiment.

One faction of the Alliance government, maybe a party, maybe a secret group of merely like-minded, shares this ideology and uses their governmental power and the facilities of Blue Sun to experiment with things that clearly go against the legal creed of the Alliance: using teenagers or drugging their population into submission. The other factions of the Alliance government are likely not aware of this at all and the general level of intransparancy and confidentiality of such a massive and slightly overcontrolling government makes it easy to keep anyone suspicious from looking too close, as well.

So if there are Reformers, it'll be other factions within the Parliament, while Blue Sun will try to do their best to cover up their aspect of involvement in order to both avoid prosecution and to keep their profitable contracts - without the slightest intention of letting go of their ideology. (Hopefully not successfully.)

The main baddy I see here is Blue Sun, with the catastrophic aid of like-minded politicians. Not politicians using Blue Sun, but the other way around. I think Miranda and River wouldn't have happened without Blue Sun because it could provide private facilities for experiments that most of the scientists involved probably had not a single idea about weren't really govern-sanctioned, and they couldn't talk about it because.. well, death.

I bet Blue Sun covertly paid for war propaganda after Miranda went bad to drown out more reasonable voices and speed up the start of the war in what must have been a building conflict at the time, to cover up their mistake.

That's my view of this whole mess, anyway. Partly fuelled because I really do not buy that the Alliance is fully rotten to its core. They made a terrible, awful and greedy mistake thinking that forced Unification was a just cause, and Mal rightfully hates them for it, but most of his misgivings I think are negative bias based on war experiences, and the evil things perpetrated against River and Miranda are sick "exceptions", born out of private, not institutional, corruption.

I hope this clears up our misunderstanding about my personal view of the relationship between Blue Sun and the Alliance. Shutting up now!

I bow to your flawless logic.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 7:07 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Well, we know New Kashmir was about ten years before the start of firefly, and we also know Reavers appeared about ten years ago, and that Miranda happened about ten years ago.

So yeah, kinda spooky... But we don't know when the war started exactly, there could have been other campaigns in the years prior. Government mistakes are easily covered up by the process of war, too. It could be either way, declaration or actual war fighting being the distraction. But I like the way you think here!

It all seems to be happening in 2506, eh? Cursed year. In the movie, Zoe guesses that the Miranda "terraforming failure" was right before the war. Mal guesses the scientist's message to be 12 years old, all point to 2506, like you say. New Kasmir must have happened a little later than that.

So I guess the Blue Sun helping the start of the war along may be a bit of a stretch, as it seems to have been coming along fast, anyway. Didn't hurt them, though, in terms of distractions. Anyway, it's likely that the same school of thought who cooked up Miranda would be part of the no doubt sizable "Yay Unification war!" section. More planets to purify. Ugh.[QUOTE/]

Anyone remember their history of the Spanish American War? "Remember the Maine, to Hell with Spain" and "Mr. Hearst's war"? It was the product of a "convenient" explosion that sank the Maine in Havana harbor and Hearst's yellow journalism that sparked "war fever" He is also supposed to have remarked to artist Frederick Reminington "You supply the pictures and I'll supply the war."

It seem that Blue Sun would and could do something along those lines to hide the disaster of Miranda.

Quote:

GOD, I wish they had had the time to create a flashback episode that deals with the crew during the war, giving us a ton of perspectives. Five-year-old River and maybe 12-year-old Simon we have seen, but barely-adult Wash contrasted with Zoe would be amazing, because of how vastly different their lives were. I bet Wash grew up semi-neutrally pro-Alliance.

Similarly 17-year-old Inara and 20-year-old Mal. Pro-Unification propaganda blasting from one cortex screen, anti-Unification propaganda from another. (No matter whose cause is right, there is always propaganda, right?) One goes off to war, another sees young soldiers off from the midst of tense Coreworld politics. And oh, the mystery of Book. Gah!

I can see an young Mal all fired up to protect his home. And the almost Registered Companion dancing with Alliance officers at farewell balls. (I must stop channeling the first chapters of "Gone with the Wind.")

And I don't recall anyone exploring young Wash. Please get out your pens (or keyboards).

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:37 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by moondog:
I bow to your flawless logic.

I didn't mean to come off as a know-it-all..

These are obviously just personal guesses.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 10:52 PM

Ah, but the path you have envisioned does appear to be more logical than mine. even though there are many other possable paths the events might take and each of them could spawn several stories.
Rest asuerd that I was not being jelous or sarcastic--just acknowledging a well thought vision.

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ncbrowncoat:

Anyone remember their history of the Spanish American War? "Remember the Maine, to Hell with Spain" and "Mr. Hearst's war"? It was the product of a "convenient" explosion that sank the Maine in Havana harbor and Hearst's yellow journalism that sparked "war fever" He is also supposed to have remarked to artist Frederick Reminington "You supply the pictures and I'll supply the war."

It seem that Blue Sun would and could do something along those lines to hide the disaster of Miranda.

Good comparison, then. I bet there had been a lot of Anti-Rim sentiment building in Core society for years. I'm picturing documentaries and news reports, depicting living conditions of the poor, oppression of women, illegal disruption of trade with Alliance companies, maybe undemocratic systems in certain places...

For all we know there were some corrupt Independent governments that beautifully lended themselves as oppressive dictators whose planets need to be liberated. I bet many Alliance soldiers going off to war felt passionate about doing a good thing for the civilian populations of the Independent planets.

Quote:

I can see an young Mal all fired up to protect his home.

I like the idea that his Ma wasn't happy with him going and him trying to make her see reason with the same level of frustration that he gets with Wash in "War Stories" about Zoe, hehe. I bet he had a somewhat romanticised view of war. Mal is just so full of himself, I doubt he gave much thought to the possibility of being horrified.

Quote:

And the almost Registered Companion dancing with Alliance officers at farewell balls.

Or just worrying about her friends, yes. I bet she had some friends and acquaintences who had chosen a military career around that time. I bet some Companions had brothers going off to fight. Maybe some young men they once met shopping at "Incense'R'Us" are going off, as well. I can see a huddle of young almost-Companions watching the big Cortex screen in the House Madrassa rec room and looking glum.

Quote:

(I must stop channeling the first chapters of "Gone with the Wind.")

Bwah!

So many... scary.. images!

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:16 PM

Moondog -

Whew, I'm relieved. I CAN get a little carried away, so criticism is usually justified and makes me feel rightfully embarrassed.

I'm glad that my idea makes sense to you! :)

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Thursday, January 8, 2009 11:32 PM

AgentRouka--
I still mull Andropov's question over,though--It's deeper than one would imagine a "true believer" high party functionary would ask, even on his death bed. I wonder what history would have been like if he and Alexi Kosegin had lived and so Lenoid Brezhnev had not come to power. On so many small things does history hinge (Don't get me started, I have studied history for the past 50 years and my speciality is obscure turning points).

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Saturday, January 17, 2009 10:02 AM

CAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by AgentRouka:

And it'd be morbidly fun to see the kind of complex strategies another subject might come up with to trap River

Assuming that they were both sane, you would have a duel between two superhumanly cunning and guileful antagonists. That should be interesting - if we could understand what was going on.

It would not be at all easy to write, though.

Perhaps more worryingly, you risk turning other characters into chess pieces for the important people to manipulate, as in OiS.

I think it would be better to keep River not-too-stable for a while, and only gradualy have her become more stable and formidable.

Then the important question would become "What does River want, and what does everyone else do about it?"

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 10:49 AM

LEEDAVIDT

i've always wondered about the blue handed
(f*x executives) i mean,the blue sun assasins...
they were too violent and cruel to not have a story line post BDM...

AGENT MCGINNIS
Not that it will mean much.
(sits)
The men were tight lipped, the girl
was just spewing gibberish. We got
it all down.
BLUE GLOVE #1
(looks concerned)
You spoke to the prisoners?

AGENT MCGINNIS
Well, yeah. Had to process 'em.
There was no interrogation, if
that's what you mean.
(BLUE GLOVE #2 comes forward)
Didn't do your job for you.

BLUE GLOVE #2
Did your men also speak with them?

He is holding something that looks like a pen, but elongates with a snap to reveal an ominous glowing blue cylinder that extends from either side of his fist. A high-pitched hum emanates from it.

AGENT MCGINNIS
As much as they had to.
AGENT MCGINNIS looks uncomfortable. He brings a hand to his nose, which is dripping a small amount of blood. The BLUE GLOVES are smiling genially. AGENT MCGINNIS starts choking and gagging. The cuticles on his fingernails are leaking blood. Blood pours from his, nose, eyes, mouth - he is in acute distress.

Is he gonna survive the supersonic boomstick? Not so much, we're thinking.

http://www.myspace.com/leedavidt

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Friday, February 13, 2009 10:00 AM

VERONIC

In Serenity Inara isn´t whore, she is a teacher.
If she stay with Mal (in the ship), she will have no clients.

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Friday, February 13, 2009 10:17 AM