Continuity Conflict - 'The Message' vs 'Objects in Space' by Schism

FIREFLY EPISODE DISCUSSIONS

Continuity Conflict - 'The Message' vs 'Objects in Space'

POSTED BY: SCHISM
UPDATED: Thursday, March 5, 2009 22:28
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Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:32 PM

The third-last episode.
Now it wasn't until OiS that it was revealed that River was a 'reader'.
I mean, we all pretty much saw it, but it was only then that the cap'n announced it and it was accepted as true.
Before then, no one really said it.

I'm watching 'The Message'.
River said her food was problematic.
Jayne says "she's a mind reader and she can't figure out how to eat a rice ball" (or whatever the food was called).

But no one deduced by that point that she was a reader.

Did they?

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Thursday, February 26, 2009 4:40 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

"Girl's a mind-readin' genius, can't even figure out how to eat a ice-planet."

Well, Jayne may have thought this after Trash, when Simon and River confronted him about what he did on Ariel. Or, it's just a continuity error because The Message was filmed last, then Joss re-arranged the order for the boxed set.

----------
"Pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space, 'cause there's bugger all down here on Earth."

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Thursday, February 26, 2009 6:14 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

The Message was the last episode written, and the last episode filmed. However, simply put, Objects in Space was Joss's favorite episode, and when he wasn't sure there would be more of the story told, that was how he wanted it to end. It was actually the third or fourth to last episode filmed, I think. If I'm not mistaken, Trash was also written after it, which is why Jayne kind of believed River when she said she could kill him with her brain, and why Simon didn't doubt River's word on Jayne being afraid they'd know, and why we see Early's ship.

[/sig]

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Friday, February 27, 2009 1:21 AM

RALLEM

Wasn't it revealed that River was a reader in "Safe?"

http://www.swyzzlestyx.com/index.html

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Friday, February 27, 2009 10:05 AM

SCHISM

Revealed?
No.
Heavily implied?
Yes.
Hence my uncertainty.
Everyone else might have wondered, up until Mal confirmed their suspicions.
But Jayne?

He ain't hardly....intuitive...

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Friday, February 27, 2009 10:22 AM

ZEEK

I think Joss just rearranged the last few episodes on the box set. Objects in Space was the last aired episode (beside the pilot). Trash, The Message and Heart of Gold were all unaired. I'm not sure if Fox messed with the episodes when they put Objects in Space on or not. I do know that the part about Inara leaving was different in the episode that aired on TV. So, I'm not sure if Joss was unsure of the order at that point and filmed to scenes or what.

The other part that messes with my head is we see Early's ship in Trash. So, either Trash came before Objects in Space, that was an easter egg that Early surived or it was just the same model ship.

It's all nice and confusing.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 5:03 PM

SCHISM

Early's ship is in 'Trash'???

Where?
When?

Could there be ANY other order to disc four?

Could 'The Message' be the last episode?

HoG and OiS have to follow one-another due to the Inara-leaving arc.

The Message could theoretically follow OiS provided you ignore the fact that Inara is still there and hadn't left YET.

OiS just makes a better ending point.

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Friday, February 27, 2009 6:19 PM

06K64

You see Early fly past from the inside of one of Hamor's windows... It's pretty amusing.

With all the talk about what was filmed when and organised how, I think it's exactly the Inara arc that confims the order of the last three as they're laid out on the boxed set.

(And, separately, didn't I see Tim Minear say on the CE that they wrapped the series (did the final bit of filming)with a couple of scenes from HoG?)

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Friday, February 27, 2009 6:40 PM

GWEK

It's my understanding that there was a lot of chaos going on behind the scenes, as the writers and crew were working on multiple episodes simultaneously and the specter of cancellation hung over the show.

Joss knew that if the show was going to end, he wanted to end with "Objects in Space." What he didn't know, though, was how many episodes he would have in order to get there. So to protect the integrity of what he wanted, the script for OiS was written (and then filmed) out of order so that Joss had his "finale" in the can for whenever he needed it. He even filmed two different versions of one of the early scenes (one version assuming the episode took place after "Heart of Gold," the other, not so much).

Meanwhile, work continued on the other episodes, and as they were writing, they didn't know for sure the order in which they would be aired (again, because they didn't know how many episodes FOX would give them).

I'm pretty sure the "mindreading genius" line is not a continuity error but an EDITING error. Had FOX renewed the show for an entire season, the episodes would likely have aired in roughly the order we see on the DVD, and Joss and crew would probably have caught the hiccup during final editing.

As a side note, I'm not sure about the actual final shot for the series, but the final day of shooting for the cast and crew as a whole was for "The Message." In fact, it's the "funeral march" where the crew brings Casey home. The sorry you see on the actors' faces is real.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, February 27, 2009 7:15 PM

06K64

Oh, ok. I thought it was that they filmed the funeral scene for the Message just after they'd gotten the news of the cancellation, and the sorry was, as you say, real. But, yeah, either way, the whole filming-out-of-order trickery that they employ in tv/film land always has my head spinning. Some eps are absolutely essential in a what-happens-when kind of way, and then some eps lend to the wider arc, but can be played in different order and still contribute. And it's all up there in Whedon's brain the whole time... (and I think you're right about them probably catching the edit.)

It must've been a nightmare for them, though. The cloud of cancellation, the actual event, keeping track of it all, and having to continue on filimg afterward.

And they still managed to give us the some of the best tv ever..!

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 4:14 AM

GWEK

Could be you're right about the final scene and I'm mis-remembering. I'm sure some more Browncoats will come along to confirm or deny. :)

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, February 28, 2009 7:10 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I'm pretty sure that Tim said the actual last day of filming was a few pick-up scenes for Heart of Gold.

I also recall mention of the fact that the scene in The Message with Mal, Zoe and Inara laughing about when Tracey cut off their commander's mustache was filmed on the same day, and immediately after, they learned of the cancellation.

It's a wonder that there are not more complaints about continuity issues due to the way FOX chose to air the episodes.

Compare this order to the one on the box set:
The Train Job
Bushwhacked
Our Mrs. Reynolds
Jaynestown
Out of Gas
Shindig
Safe
Ariel
War Stories
Objects in Space
Serenity

Trash, The Message and Heart of Gold never aired on FOX. And just imagine if they had chosen to alternate the order of Shindig and Safe, we'd have been wondering where the hell the cows came from.

As for River's psychic ability, I am sure that most of them had begun to suspect it long before Objects in Space, or The Message, whichever you think deserved to be first in the order. I can think of at least three examples that would get them considering the possibility.

Several of the characters heard her say she "followed the voices" when she came aboard the derelict ship in Bushwhacked. The way she picked up on Badger's accent and figured he was from Dyton Colony in Shindig. Surely there was some discussion of exactly why the settlers in Safe were going to burn her at the stake.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, March 1, 2009 9:12 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Schism:
The third-last episode.
Now it wasn't until OiS that it was revealed that River was a 'reader'.
I mean, we all pretty much saw it, but it was only then that the cap'n announced it and it was accepted as true.
Before then, no one really said it.

I'm watching 'The Message'.
River said her food was problematic.
Jayne says "she's a mind reader and she can't figure out how to eat a rice ball" (or whatever the food was called).

But no one deduced by that point that she was a reader.

Did they?

You are correct that this is a continuity error. It is a result of the re-arrangment of the episode order.
Here is a thread which discusses the episode sequences:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=4&t=33969

The original order was WS, HoG, OiS, Trash, Message. Message was the last full ep filmed. HoG was not aired because Fox did not want western themes. Ois was the last ep aired, and cancellation haqd been announced. Joss waqnted to rearrange the episode sequence, so the already aired OiS had some scenes re-shot (original aired scene avaliable on DVD, but DVD episode has re-shot scenes in episode), and some of the scenes in HoG were re-shot - the very last being the "I'm leaving" scene on the cargo bay catwalk (on that set) and the final scenes for most actors was on the cathouse set of HoG, on Dec 20th.
Comments regarding the last day of shooting on 20 Dec are from Tim Minear commentary, perhaps that's the Done The Impossible DVD. Comments about the final set catwalk scene - not sure, may have been Mal on commentary on the DVD set (I do think it was the actors making that comment). The Official Companion has the script for HoG, and I'm leaving is not there, IIRC - I thnk that script is also lined over in Blue Sun Room forum under the Writer's Resource Package thread, but it has the new scene in it.
Some fans want to believe the DVD sequence is the correct sequence.

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Monday, March 2, 2009 5:42 AM

06K64

(Admittedly, I haven't done the forensic analysis, but, at face value...)

I'm curious if we think it was really revealed that River was a reader in OiS, or was it just "revealed" to us that everyone else thought so, too? It just sounds like Mal's vocalising what everyone'd suspected, and there's agreement around the table.

And as for the ice planet comment, it's not like Jayne's all that careful about what thoughts escape through his mouth... He just said what he was thinking, basically.

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Monday, March 2, 2009 8:19 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by 06K64:
(Admittedly, I haven't done the forensic analysis, but, at face value...)

I'm curious if we think it was really revealed that River was a reader in OiS, or was it just "revealed" to us that everyone else thought so, too? It just sounds like Mal's vocalising what everyone'd suspected, and there's agreement around the table.

And as for the ice planet comment, it's not like Jayne's all that careful about what thoughts escape through his mouth... He just said what he was thinking, basically.

It was revealed to "everyone else" who hadn't paqid attention, but to the attentive audience it had been revealed all along.
In Pilot, she read Dobson's intent to kidnap her, and woke asking for Simon, to be snatched by Dobson.
In Bushwhacked, she read the survivor to know the rest aboard were ghosts and that everybody had been screaming.
In Shindig she read Badger to spoof the Dyton Colony dialogue.
In Safe she read the cattle, and then Ruby, and then The Patron, and then the arrival of BDHs.
In OMR she read Saffron was a thief.
In OoG she read Book's fears of death.
In Ariel she read Jayne's betrayal when she awoke in the hospital, and the Blue Hands arrival and pursuit.
In Trash she revealed her reading of Jayne's betrayal, and Simon had a chat with Jayne - and she can kill him with her brain. But this is after OiS.

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 12:41 AM

SIGMANUNKI

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:

Or, it's just a continuity error because The Message was filmed last, then Joss re-arranged the order for the boxed set.

^^^ This is the reason.

Also, listen to Joss' commentary on OiS. He reveals that having the series end on the words, "Well, here I am" was prefect. Which is probably the ultimate reason for the re-ordering.

----
I am on The Original List (twice). We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 4:11 AM

06K64

JSF-

I totally agree. In fact, I think it's what I'm trying to say- that, at face value, I don't really see it as a continuity issue.

While they're all seated around the table in the galley during OiS, the language used is not language of people taken by a blinding flash of revelation, but more of people all admitting, together, that they suspect/believe/recognise the fact that River is a reader.

My point about Jayne was only that it would be in character for him to mouth off as he had in The Message about the ice planet, and just as in character for Book to recognise the situation and keep it to himself, as we can infer he has done by his reaction/answer to Mal's "Am I the only one thinking along those lines?" question in the galley.

(I guess if we have a divergence, it's that I'm approaching this from a boxed-set-as-it's-laid-out perspective, and I'm not sure I see a continuity issue, while you've done far more delving into the creative process. I see where you're coming from; am happy to defer to research!)

All paint for the canvas.

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 8:47 AM

SHINY

This is listed along with all the other bloopers and continuity problems people have found from the series and the movie here:

http://browncoats.com/index.php?ContentID=42e6e0aad9f9b

http://browncoats.com/index.php?ContentID=433ed68443f0d

---

I don't need a gorram back-spaceship driver!!!

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Tuesday, March 3, 2009 9:51 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by 06K64:
JSF-

I totally agree. In fact, I think it's what I'm trying to say- that, at face value, I don't really see it as a continuity issue.

While they're all seated around the table in the galley during OiS, the language used is not language of people taken by a blinding flash of revelation, but more of people all admitting, together, that they suspect/believe/recognise the fact that River is a reader.

My point about Jayne was only that it would be in character for him to mouth off as he had in The Message about the ice planet, and just as in character for Book to recognise the situation and keep it to himself, as we can infer he has done by his reaction/answer to Mal's "Am I the only one thinking along those lines?" question in the galley.

(I guess if we have a divergence, it's that I'm approaching this from a boxed-set-as-it's-laid-out perspective, and I'm not sure I see a continuity issue, while you've done far more delving into the creative process. I see where you're coming from; am happy to defer to research!)

All paint for the canvas.

Do you live on a spaceship, dear?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 4:09 AM

06K64

I'm guessing you think my orbital trajectory's a bit... off?

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Wednesday, March 4, 2009 7:25 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Wash "But reading minds, isn't that like something out of science fiction?"
Zoe "You live on a spaceship dear"
Wash "so?"
- Objects in Space.

Wash didn't seem to be acknowledging something he had already thought about - he seemed to resist, not believe. Above it was suggested they all were just voicing things they had already figured out to some degree.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 7:13 PM

06K64

Fair point- Wash does seem to be a bit oblivious to it all. But you have to concede, looking around that table, that the rest seem to acknowledge that they suspect or even outright believe that River is a reader (or something.) Whether it’s as clear as Book makes it, or more tacitly, it is something that had crossed their minds.

To me, even Jayne’s reaction in the galley squares with what I’m saying with regard to the continuity/sequence: “Back up a sec. You're saying she might really read minds?” (Part of the reason I think we can even have this conversation is that,) these are very well written characters in terms of depth and complexity- you really get a sense of who they are. I think Jayne suspected something as a result of his interactions with River, and his simplistic conclusion was that she could “read minds.” But let’s face it: Jayne’s not really used to people agreeing with him, or giving him all that much credit. When he refers to River as a mind reading genius in The Message, that’s just something that’s kicking around in his head, and, as is often the case, it just comes out his mouth.

When he says, “...she might really read minds?” I think he’s surprised he was right about what he’d thought it in the past. (And a little worried.)

However, as for Wash and Zoe’s exchange (Ah, Wash...ever the foil !) I think a lot of this centers on how much you’re willing to engage in the suspension of disbelief. It’s a big part of being a spectator, for me, and I employ it to feel like I’m present, spectating the “reality” of the fiction. Engrossed in it. I think we can all agree that two of the hallmarks of Whedon’s work are his sense of humor, and the fact that he doesn’t like us to get comfortable- he likes to keep us on our toes. He likes throwing things in that make us blink and say,”wubbahuh?” Whether it’s something drastic like the (unforgivable !) impaling of the aforementioned in the BDM, or something unexpected like Echo’s shake of the head to Sierra, or something comic like an entire episode of Buffy told in song, it’s designed to slap us with a different perspective.

It’s that fine line between the reality of the story as it’s being told, and a small joke, an aside, to the viewers. It’s Ferris Bueller talking to the audience; it’s Han Solo in carbonite.

That’s what I think the exchange between Wash and Zoe is: it’s just a bit of a changeup- one of Whedon’s techniques to keep us thinking. And laughing.

But, I totally take your point, and I see where you’re coming from. And you’re probably right- like I said, I’m happy to defer. All my verbiage above is just to shed a little light on that orbit trajectory. I mean, it did occur to me when I saw it, but it didn’t strike me as an issue as much as some other things have, from a continuity point of view.

And, plus, the day we all agree is the day the ‘verse stops being worth exploring...

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 8:15 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Oh. No. I didn't think you were following that path.
OiS was after War Stories and HoG. Jayne did not know, had assumed everything River said was buggy. This is when he learns she is, and he is afraid of all he has done, all his thoughts since she has been aboard.

After OiS are Trash, when Simon talks to him about his betrayal on Ariel, and River adds she can kill him with her brain, with him not knowing whether to believe her or not.
Then Message, when he has clearly now understood she is a reader, and openly says it.

Trying to say Message is before OiS in all aspects of all the story arcs is silly, other than the scenes rewritten and reshot after series cancellation.

for Wash, he spends most of his time in the cockpit, doesn't get to interact with most of the crew most of the time, missing out on the funnies and much of the mealtimes even. He hasn't experienced River like almost everybody else. He might be ambivalent, but Jayne doesn't get it because he's thick, Wash because he hasn't been fully exposed to her other than the soup-in-hair stuff.

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Thursday, March 5, 2009 10:28 PM

ANOTHERSKY

I can't speak to episode order.

But the other issue, River's reader-ness, now that one is clear:

As has been pointed out, she shows it, around various characters (notably Jayne, actually). A LOT. As in every episode.

Also if you really really want to go with 'continuity', I originally took the line in The Message as more of Jayne's way of speech, not an observation or analysis:
("girl's a mind-readin' genius and can't even figure out how to eat an ice planet") He would conflate her sensitivity as being somehow connected to her genius. Neither of which he gets, though he has a pretty good horse sense himself.

Although, Jayne's mouth is talkin', and he might want to look to that, cause this time it's right.

When they give it a bona-fied part-of-the-'verse label, a Reader (not just psychic or empathic or whatever, but something with a title), it means they are Officially Recognizing It as Something That Exists. I foresaw plot points off this, unfortunately F%X did something unspeakable instead.

But Early's ship still has me in stitches, because it goes either way.

Going for a Ride.

Another Sky

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