Someone please break Joss' fingers! [spoiler] by Toadsmoothy

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But, when I see the word "Vampire"

I think "hand me a stake."

I don't like vampires, and I like even less that they've been romanticized. Either they're demon possessed or they have no soul or both which can make a formerly nice human a complete sadist, but either way I have issues with the "I love a corpse and it's so beautiful!" thing.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 6:18 AM

Theoretically, the syringe could have been painkillers. Ties to her condition AND makes sense in the context of reavers attacking.

In Those Left Behind, River does something similar when she senses the Blue Hands nearby, and Simon finds River and takes her up to Inara. I think this may be intended as an echo to the pilot scene.

I get the feeling that Tim Minear was speculating on the contents of the syringe more than he knew what the syringe was with the sex poison thing. He was suggesting that episode not as an idea that he and Joss had that Fox vetoed, but rather proposing it as an example of on-the-spot episode writing at a panel for a convention.

A sex poison goes kind of contrary to Inara's Buddhist beliefs and her profession, which views sex as transcendental. A sex poison turns sex into something dangerous and potentially evil.

It's like those horror films where the people who have sex are punished for it after the fact. Inara would have to get raped for the poison to work, and that's assuming the Reavers don't eat her or sew her skin into their clothing first.

It's a really unlovely idea and and even more unfortunate message, if you think about it.

And that's not even getting into the possible psychological damage and changes to Inara's character after the fact if she were to live. I've always thought the poison syringe was a bad idea.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 6:34 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Theoretically, the syringe could have been painkillers. Ties to her condition AND makes sense in the context of reavers attacking.

Painkillers? Seriously? No offense, but I'm pretty sure Whedon wouldn't waste a shot on glorified aspirin.

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In Those Left Behind, River does something similar when she senses the Blue Hands nearby, and Simon finds River and takes her up to Inara. I think this may be intended as an echo to the pilot scene.

I haven't read TLB for a while, but if I recall correctly, in the scene you're talking about, River ODs on drugs because she's trying to "put herself to sleep" (which plays on a whole season of trying to "wake up").

I'm not necesarily discounting a parallel to the pilot, but I think Simon taking River to Inara is more about giving Inara a role in things, and letting Simon be un-encumbered by River so he can have his "man up" moment against the Hands of Blue.

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I get the feeling that Tim Minear was speculating on the contents of the syringe more than he knew what the syringe was with the sex poison thing.

To be clear, Tim Minear did NOT speculate on the contents of the syringe. In fact, when he was asked if the syringe was tied to the story, he said he didn't know.

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A sex poison also goes kind of contrary to Inara's Buddhist beliefs and her profession, which views sex as transcendental, and turns sex into something dangerous and potentially evil.

Which is why I noted that a "sex poison" leads to a lot of interesting speculation about the nature of Companions and Guilds. It may conflict with what we APPEAR to know, but what we know about Firefly is only a fraction of the seven-year story arc Joss was planning to tell.

And Sex is ALWAYS potentially dangerous. Inara knows that. Whedon knows that (and plays with the theme a ton in his work).

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It's like those horror films where the people who have sex are punished for it after the fact.

I'm not really sure what horror films you're talking about.

There has been speculation through the years that the Guild is not all that it appears to be, that it could be some sort of espionage-based organization (in which case the ability to kill via sex--and leave little or no evidence--would be quite useful) and also that Inara might not be as free as she appears to be. Note that I'm not saying that I necessarily believe any of those theories wholeheartedly, but if you're going to speculate on the gray areas of the 'Verse, you have to keep an open mind about things. Book's history as depicted in THE SHEPHERD'S TALE is solid evidence that Joss had many twists and turns in mind that we could not necessarily have predicted from what we've already seen.

Keep in mind also that in the movie, we see that Companions are trained with weaponry and martial arts, and that Inara seems to be a bit more accomplished as a combatant than the series would indicate. This may well be license to make the dynamic of the movie work, but could also be indicative of a side of the Guild that the series only barely hints at.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 6:52 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I think her martial prowess is legit, she certainly seemed to know how to use a knife 'Heart of Gold'

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Friday, December 17, 2010 6:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
...One episode idea that Joss and Tim realized they couldn't use involved the ship being attacked by Reavers. Inara is kidnapped and taken back to the Reaver ship, where she is gang-raped. When the crew eventually rescues her, they find her surrounded by a bunch of dead Reavers.

What I (and others) have inferred from this is that Inara has some sort of (for lack of a better term) "sex poison" that can kill someone who has sex with her. (Such a close knotting together of sex and death is certainly within Joss's general mindset, and it leads to some very interesting speculation about the true nature of Companions and their Guild)...

...(scraping my blown mind off my monitor)...

I am such a punter.

My mind would have never gone there. Are we sure we would want to go there? If the crew found out about this aspect of Companion culture what would that do to the crew dynamic? Suddenly everyone would be wary of Inara. If she killed the Reavers with sex, who else has she killed with sex. I thought Companion culture was supposed to be a positive thing. It would change everything, bring the darkness in amongst them rather than just external. Man, that's sick. Makes me wonder what I'm doing here. Do I want to know more? I'm not so sure.

It reminds me of the old, male castration fear in primitive cultures. Suddenly Inara's vagina has teeth!

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:02 AM

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I don't like vampires, and I like even less that they've been romanticized. Either they're demon possessed or they have no soul or both which can make a formerly nice human a complete sadist, but either way I have issues with the "I love a corpse and it's so beautiful!" thing.

I wonder about the psychological gears of people who are really into that stuff. I think it's gone way beyond horror flick into adoration. I'd say "Hellboy, bring out Big Baby, we're huntin' Vampires!"

Gotta love Hellboy! ;)

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:15 AM

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It reminds me of the old, male castration fear in primitive cultures. Suddenly Inara's vagina has teeth!

EXACTLY, and partially why I don't think this idea of Tim's would've made it to the screen.

I have to disagree with GWEK, because if I see anything in Joss' world about sex, it's that barring Angelus and Buffy sex is put up on a pedestal. Fes Higgins can't become a man until he has sex (and shows up his old man)! Ballard and Echo are tragic because he dies before they get to be together, and it's a happy ending because Alpha "fixes" that! Spike becomes a total wuss after he falls for Buffy, and spends the rest of the series trying to get his badass back!

Yeah, I'm probably wrong on the Buffy and Angel examples because I haven't seen the series, but that's my understanding from what I've read.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:15 AM

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A sex poison goes kind of contrary to Inara's Buddhist beliefs and her profession, which views sex as transcendental. A sex poison turns sex into something dangerous and potentially evil.

Thank you. 100X Thank you! :hug:

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It's a really unlovely idea and and even more unfortunate message, if you think about it.

I could not agree with you more!

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And that's not even getting into the possible psychological damage and changes to Inara's character after the fact if she were to live.

Obviously from my above response, I have the same thoughts. I think it would ruin the whole crew dynamic.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:28 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I think her martial prowess is legit, she certainly seemed to know how to use a knife 'Heart of Gold'

Yeah, but if she is a killer why didn't she slit his throat instantly and be done with it? It seemed to me a rather lame attempt. If I had such supposed skills, and a scumbag had a gun on my friend, he wouldn't have known what hit him.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
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Originally posted by GWEK:
...One episode idea that Joss and Tim realized they couldn't use involved the ship being attacked by Reavers. Inara is kidnapped and taken back to the Reaver ship, where she is gang-raped. When the crew eventually rescues her, they find her surrounded by a bunch of dead Reavers.

What I (and others) have inferred from this is that Inara has some sort of (for lack of a better term) "sex poison" that can kill someone who has sex with her. (Such a close knotting together of sex and death is certainly within Joss's general mindset, and it leads to some very interesting speculation about the true nature of Companions and their Guild)...

...(scraping my blown mind off my monitor)...

I am such a punter. My mind would have never gone there. Are we sure we would want to go there? If the crew found out about this aspect of Companion culture what would that do to the crew dynamic? Suddenly everyone would be wary of Inara. If she killed the Reavers with sex, who else has she killed with sex. I thought Companion culture was supposed to be a positive thing. It would change everything, bring the darkness in amongst them rather than just external. Man, that's sick. Makes me wonder what I'm doing here. Do I want to know more? I'm not so sure.

It reminds me of the old, male castration fear in primitive cultures. Suddenly Inara's vagina has teeth!

Yeah, I actually looked for a way to use the term "vagina dentata" in the post, but it seemed forced. :)

Remember, Joss's original vision of Firefly was apparently much darker than what we wound up with. There no reason to assume that he would still have tried to have Inara gang-raped by Reavers in "our" version of Firefly... of course, Joss being Joss, I'm fairly certain that's a door that he wasn't willing to close when the series started (hence, I suspect, the seeding of the syringe in the pilot).

You mention that you thought Companion culture was supposed to be a "positive" thing. What, exactly, is that assumption based on? Inara is supposed to represent an Eastern philosophy (while Book represents a Western one), but there's no reason to assume a philosophy is wholly positive or negative. (Joss, being a bitter atheist, seems to attribute negatives to ANY proscribed philosophy).

If anything, I think "Companion culture" was supposed to in some way adjust the balance of power between the genders. (Much of Joss's work is, after all, pro-fem). That increases the "power" of women... and what does power do? Yep, you guessed it: corrupt.

It's not that big a jump from the Companions Guild to the Dollhouse. Both are organizations based on using fantasy (most often sexual fantasy) for power, and both use "courtesans" who purport to be "real." (It's really a conversation for another day, but I think that Joss used DOLLHOUSE as a "clearinghouse" for the some of the Firefly ideas he knew he wouldn't get to use). If you want to consider how twisted things might be behind the scenes at the Guild, one need look no further than the politics of the Dollhouse.

As for people being wary of Inara... well, that's the stuff of good drama, isn't it? Just in the series: Jayne and Simon don't trust each other (and Mal only begins to trust Jayne AFTER he gets the betrayal out of his system); nobody trusts River (quite possibly including River herself); and everyone knows Book is harboring secrets. I'm not even getting into personal issues beyond trust here, but there are tons within the crew.

Because, y'see, conflict is INTERESTING. Without conflict, there is no story, and for a show that was about nine people stuck on a spaceship, the more that conflict is between them, the better.

Consider, for a moment, an earlier Whedon series: BUFFY THE VAMPIRE SLAYER. While the "Scoobies" are generally entertaining and sometimes interesting, I would content that one of the most interesting periods for Xander and Willow was when they were both in relationships (with Cordelia and Oz, respectively) but having a little side thing with each other... and all the while, both were wary of Angel and his impact on Buffy. Good stuff. One of the best things Joss ever did for BtVS was stick Spike on the side of the angels. No one trusted him. No one liked him. No one wanted him there. But they NEEDED him. And that is the stuff of great conflict and great story.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:41 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Well said GWEK, and I would also add that we can't expect the guild the be exactly like Inara, after she must have left that shiny atmosphere for a reason. Maybe they are sometimes sex spies and assasins and maybe Inara was fleeing that aspect of the job but not willing to become a 'whore' like Nandi. Also, they've said she could have made high priestess, maybe she was really good at the ugly side of her job and like book, is looking to atone, use her skills to help others like Fess, or in a non sexual way as with Simon and River in the pilot.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:41 AM

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Originally posted by Bytemite:
...because if I see anything in Joss' world about sex, it's that barring Angelus and Buffy sex is put up on a pedestal.

Oh, wow. WOW. I don't think you've been watching the same shows that I have.

WOW.

Or else you've been watching the same shows but missing every OUNCE of subtext.

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Fes Higgins can't become a man until he has sex (and shows up his old man)!

Go back and watch the episode. Fes having sex has NOTHING to do with his "manning up. You've completely missed the point of that sequence. It's actually the exact OPPOSITE. He is able to stand up to his father because Inara helps him understand how limited his father's thinking is.

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Ballard and Echo are tragic because he dies before they get to be together, and it's a happy ending because Alpha "fixes" that!

Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with sex. It's stated quite explicitly that they've had sex any number of times... but because sex is only part of the equation, they still can't connect (Again, nothing about putting sex on a pedastal... in fact, again, it's depicted pretty much as just a physical action).

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Spike becomes a total wuss after he falls for Buffy, and spends the rest of the series trying to get his badass back!

Which, again, has nothing to do with SEX. It has to do with LOVE... which is different. When Buffy and Spike have sex for the first time they LITERALLY knock down a building, because it's about the brutal release of physical frustration. Buffy continues to have sex with Spike because she's keeping a dirty little secret from the rest of the gang. Sex is put anywhere BUT on a pedastal with these two (although it is quite possible that they literally have sex on a pedastal... I forget).

As for sex being idealized: Yes, I'm sure when Spike tried to rape Buffy, that was sure sex on a pedastal.

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Yeah, I'm probably wrong on the Buffy and Angel examples because I haven't seen the series, but that's my understanding from what I've read.

You're understanding is limited, and flawed. I must assume that you've never seen an episode of Dollhouse either.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
I think her martial prowess is legit, she certainly seemed to know how to use a knife 'Heart of Gold'

Yeah, but if she is a killer why didn't she slit his throat instantly and be done with it? It seemed to me a rather lame attempt. If I had such supposed skills, and a scumbag had a gun on my friend, he wouldn't have known what hit him.

You're making the assumption that just because someone has a weapon, and perhaps some skill to use it, that makes them a killer.

Without getting too much into the nature of the Guild (because it's all pure speculation): Why, when Inara could have made house priestess, is she out in the black on a crappy spaceship with a bunch of brigands? What exactly drove her to the black? Could it be that she doesn't have the killer instinct necessary to become a key member of the Guild?

Who the heck knows? But, as I've said, you have to keep an open mind when dealing with something this speculative. Instead of making assumptions that close doors, look for possible evidence (or even questions) that help keep doors open.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheHappyTrader:
Well said GWEK, and I would also add that we can't expect the guild the be exactly like Inara, after she must have left that shiny atmosphere for a reason. Maybe they are sometimes sex spies and assasins and maybe Inara was fleeing that aspect of the job but not willing to become a 'whore' like Nandi. Also, they've said she could have made high priestess, maybe she was really good at the ugly side of her job and like book, is looking to atone, use her skills to help others like Fess, or in a non sexual way as with Simon and River in the pilot.

Thanks. Yeah, I happen to think that if we accept the "Guild is more than it seems" viewpoint, Inara was not necessarily "on the inside." I also think it's quite possible that for many Companions, there isn't a shadowy side to it. Consider something like organized crime: the majority of people who work for a criminal organization are actually doing completely legitimate and legal jobs and might not even be aware of the larger picture.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 7:47 AM

Gorram double post...

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Friday, December 17, 2010 8:34 AM

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You mention that you thought Companion culture was supposed to be a "positive" thing. What, exactly, is that assumption based on?

I guess watching the way she treated clients like Fess and crew members like Book and Simon. She seemed wise and supportive, even Mal, who she secretly prayed for. I don't recall an incident where I thought Companion was anything but positive.

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If anything, I think "Companion culture" was supposed to in some way adjust the balance of power between the genders. (Much of Joss's work is, after all, pro-fem). That increases the "power" of women... and what does power do? Yep, you guessed it: corrupt.

I guess I just didn't see that corruption in Inara and I haven't gotten it when Morena has talked about the role. (U Tube)

I'm not familiar with Joss' other shows and maybe they're not for me. I'm not terribly brainy nor sophisticated in my tastes, obviously. I guess I like the pablum version of Firefly and am troubled by all these darker threads. That is my limitation.

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Because, y'see, conflict is INTERESTING. Without conflict, there is no story, and for a show that was about nine people stuck on a spaceship, the more that conflict is between them, the better.

Well, I've had a lifetime of interpersonal conflict and that's not what I come to entertainment for. I enjoyed the family aspect of the crew battling external forces, but tear the family apart and you lose me. I've seen enough of that for a lifetime. Perhaps we're talking levels here, beyond which I don't want to go.

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Consider, for a moment, an earlier Whedon series:

I'm sorry. I can't follow you because I'm ignorant of these series.

So, there you have it. I'm a boob who wants hero tales and happy endings. Perhaps I don't belong here. Not everything is for everyone.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 8:36 AM

COLT999

Quote:
Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Yeah, like the syringe she pulls out when the Reavers were near. I thought it was a suicide dose in case they were boarded by the Reavers. Now I'm thinking it could have been medicine for her condition.

Maybe she took the shot when she the Reavers first show up, and thats what leads to her illness. She didn't run to it when the Reavers showed back up and Mal put her in her shuttle. This is before the movie so perhaps the Guild was supposed to have a hand in creating Reavers and it would give her some control over them, but kill her in the long run.

Or the syringe was not for Inara.

Could be,its meds that makes the crew seem dead and we learn that Reavers dont harm whats already dead. Or some anti-Reaver shot that would make the crew undetectable to the Reavers.

Or my favorite, its Alliance super juice that turns her into the Hulk and she smashes them, but she's relucatant to use it since it's hard for a green Companion to find clients.

Chances are we will never know but it's fun to guess.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
...because if I see anything in Joss' world about sex, it's that barring Angelus and Buffy sex is put up on a pedestal.

Oh, wow. WOW. I don't think you've been watching the same shows that I have.

WOW.

Or else you've been watching the same shows but missing every OUNCE of subtext.

Quote:
Fes Higgins can't become a man until he has sex (and shows up his old man)!

Go back and watch the episode. Fes having sex has NOTHING to do with his "manning up. You've completely missed the point of that sequence. It's actually the exact OPPOSITE. He is able to stand up to his father because Inara helps him understand how limited his father's thinking is.

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Ballard and Echo are tragic because he dies before they get to be together, and it's a happy ending because Alpha "fixes" that!

Which, again, has absolutely nothing to do with sex. It's stated quite explicitly that they've had sex any number of times... but because sex is only part of the equation, they still can't connect (Again, nothing about putting sex on a pedastal... in fact, again, it's depicted pretty much as just a physical action).

Quote:
Spike becomes a total wuss after he falls for Buffy, and spends the rest of the series trying to get his badass back!

Which, again, has nothing to do with SEX. It has to do with LOVE... which is different. When Buffy and Spike have sex for the first time they LITERALLY knock down a building, because it's about the brutal release of physical frustration. Buffy continues to have sex with Spike because she's keeping a dirty little secret from the rest of the gang. Sex is put anywhere BUT on a pedastal with these two (although it is quite possible that they literally have sex on a pedastal... I forget).

As for sex being idealized: Yes, I'm sure when Spike tried to rape Buffy, that was sure sex on a pedastal.

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Yeah, I'm probably wrong on the Buffy and Angel examples because I haven't seen the series, but that's my understanding from what I've read.

You're understanding is limited, and flawed. I must assume that you've never seen an episode of Dollhouse either.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

Some good analysis and excellent points there.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

A sex poison goes kind of contrary to Inara's Buddhist beliefs and her profession, which views sex as transcendental.

Only if she chose to have it. If it was inflicted upon her, either by sickness or through other means, her finding ways to neutralize that thread indeed works directly toward her beliefs.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 9:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

I don't like vampires, and I like even less that they've been romanticized. Either they're demon possessed or they have no soul or both which can make a formerly nice human a complete sadist, but either way I have issues with the "I love a corpse and it's so beautiful!" thing.

You talk as if it's a recent thing. Vampires have many incarnations in folklore and fiction, and have been used as a metaphor for sex for a very long time. This is a very limited view.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 10:08 AM

MINCINGBEAST

Good analysis? I see frequent use of cap lock. And also, thoughtful analysis which I disagree with, hence automatically declare bad. Put up your dukes. Let us FIGHT and so forth.

I offer no comment on anything Angel, Buffy, or Dollhouse related, because I have had the good fortune to limit my exposure to these wretched shows.

Regarding Firefly, I dispute that sex has nothing to do with Fes "manning up" and standing up to his mean old man. Inara arrives; Inara and Fess fornicate, but in a totally spiritual way; Inara offers trivial pillow talk, but its totally motivational stuff; suddenly Fess stands up to his mean old man. If Inara is able to help Fess understand anything, sex is as much of the scenario as anything else.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Good analysis? I see frequent use of cap lock. And also, thoughtful analysis which I disagree with, hence automatically declare bad. Put up your dukes. Let us FIGHT and so forth.

Uh....whatever....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Friday, December 17, 2010 11:09 AM

I don't know anything about the syringe, but when Mal puts Inara back in her shuttle, it reminds me of when Major Tony Nelson would order Jeannie back in her bottle for being troublesome.

Maybe Inara is a naughty two thousand year old genie.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 11:38 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

All this disecting of the material reminds me of English lit class back in college...

It all ends up being about sex and the room would be divided with men and women yelling at each other.

Anyone going to watch a Muppet Christmas Carol this season?

Cartoons - http://cirqusartsandmusic.blogspot.com

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Friday, December 17, 2010 12:22 PM

Quote:

You're understanding is limited, and flawed. I must assume that you've never seen an episode of Dollhouse either.

Well, I can't really comment on Buffy and Angel, but I can comment on this. And I have seen Dollhouse, and my understanding was that Ballard and Echo kept putting it off, hence Ballard's line "You have 30 other people in your head but you're the loneliest person I know."

But to be fair, I kinda hated the whole Echo x Ballard plot anyway, so if I missed subtext I'm not surprised because I honestly thought the whole relationship was exploitive and disgusting. You want an example of Joss Whedon putting sex (and rape!) on a pedestal, look no further.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 12:48 PM

MINCINGBEAST

Quote:
Originally posted by Toadsmoothy:
Perhaps I'm just simple-minded and I'm OK with that. I grew up watching Bonanza after all. Today's audiences may need the shock.

Devil take today's audiences, and today as well. Bonanza is good stuff, and the pinnacle of human achievement is the Andy Griffith Show. I kid you not. I love that show, inasmuch as I am capable of love. Gunsmoke, The Rifleman, The Andy Griffith Show, Leave it to Beaver, Maverick, etc...and I'm not even an old coot yet, and if the Devil grants me the premature death I crave, never shall be one.

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Friday, December 17, 2010 3:12 PM

GREENKA61

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

A sex poison goes kind of contrary to Inara's Buddhist beliefs and her profession, which views sex as transcendental.

On the other hand, a sex poison is something that someone like Saffron wouldn't hesitate to use if it gave her a means to an advantageous end.

I always wondered what happened to Saffron (beyond her Guild training)before she became the kind of person she turned out to be.

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 4:51 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I was one of the early believers in the "Inara is dying" scenario, and when I saw the syringe (remember, we who saw Firefly on FOX, this was the last episode we saw) my take on it was that it was a medicine for her condition, and she was thinking, "Well, that was all for nothing wasn't it?"

BTW, you realize that if Joss' fingers are broken, all he has to do is dictate his script to Tim Minear, and his nickname is the Tim Reaper. It wouldn't be any better.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, December 26, 2010 7:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
...BTW, you realize that if Joss' fingers are broken, all he has to do is dictate his script to Tim Minear, and his nickname is the Tim Reaper. It wouldn't be any better...

haha Yeah. It was a stupid idea. It's OK. In my imagination Wash still lives. I suppose that's heretical but it wouldn't be the first time for me.

"Gee, I've never been in trouble with the law before." Jayne

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Monday, December 27, 2010 4:37 AM

CBY

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
I was one of the early believers in the "Inara is dying" scenario.

I really hated the hokey "Roslin is dying" stuff on the new BSG right off the bat (sick, healed by deus ex machina, sick again *snore*), so I am pretty opposed to the idea. I think it's kinda lowbrow, I was hoping for something more eleborate.

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Monday, December 27, 2010 8:09 AM

HARDWARE

I like the idea of the syringe being a sex poison. Remember, this is the frontier. I can see rape as being punishable by death.

On the other hand, have you considered Inara's backstory? Why did she leave the temple house? Perhaps the companions also choose to groom the human condition from time to time? Kind of like the Bene Gesserit from Dune? A senior companion may be given the sex drug that leaves her client dead or dying, or more disturbing, requires application of another drug to prevent death. Making the person who supplies that palliative drug the controller of the person who prefers to live.

I think it is not out of the picture to think of a senior companion assigning Inara to take a senior alliance politician as a client and using the drug on him or her to control the person or kill them without suspicion. Inara leaving to travel could have easily been a reaction to the assignment or a result of the use of the sex drug shortening or terminating her life.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, December 27, 2010 6:56 PM

PRETTYXPISTOL

As long as something happens with Mal and Inara before she dies I will be happy lol

[Inara: It's all right. I mostly keep to myself. When I'm not whoring.]

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 7:14 AM

Is anyone else really bothered by these storylines? They are very unsettling, manipulative.

First, there were plans for Inara to be taken by Reavers, ganged raped, survive because of her toxic vagina, rescued by the crew, totally destroying her character in the process (I can't imagine anyone ever being the same after living through that, rape is powerfully violent, not a sexual act, so the argument that she would recover because she’s a trained Companion is ridiculous.)

AND THEN, we were to discover that she was dying after all or not, depending on how the storyline was to unfold.

As for Mal and Zoe losing Wash, there’s got to be other ways to develop these characters besides having horrible things like rape and death happen to their loved ones, geez.

By the way, I think, I read in an interview that Roslin was Joss’s favorite BSG female character, so there you go.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 8:18 AM

MINCINGBEAST

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Is anyone else really bothered by these storylines? They are very unsettling, manipulative...

. . .there’s got to be other ways to develop these characters besides having horrible things like rape and death happen to their loved ones, geez.

Fair point, but Inara is a whore, after all, and really ought to be punished for her sexuality with Reaver wiener.

Also, the only way for characters to develop is gritty authenticity. Nothing says gritty authenticity like violence and sexual assault. Sooner of later, Joss and Co. would've had every major character humped by Reavers and tortured. Especially Simon. Can't you just picture his brow all knit in disgust as he...well, anyway, I can.

And all of these storylines, aborted or otherwise, grow not out of creative poverty, or rank laziness of narrative, but rather genius. Art requires gross emotional manipulation and reaver wiener. Don't you understand art?

I'm all for darkness and despair, but darkness for its own sake makes me invest less in the story and characters and suspicious of the author.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 1:16 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Is anyone else really bothered by these storylines? They are very unsettling, manipulative.

First, there were plans for Inara to be taken by Reavers, ganged raped, survive because of her toxic vagina, rescued by the crew, totally destroying her character in the process (I can't imagine anyone ever being the same after living through that, rape is powerfully violent, not a sexual act, so the argument that she would recover because she’s a trained Companion is ridiculous.)

Tim Minear, writer on Firefly, explains the Inara vs the Reavers story in a podcast at Fanboy Confidential. www.fanboy-confidential.com/interviews/episode-8-tim-minear/ Minear starts his explanation at 34 minutes, 25 seconds into the podcast and goes for 4 minutes.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:36 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:...
On the other hand, have you considered Inara's backstory? Why did she leave the temple house? Perhaps the companions also choose to groom the human condition from time to time? Kind of like the Bene Gesserit from Dune? A senior companion may be given the sex drug that leaves her client dead or dying, or more disturbing, requires application of another drug to prevent death. Making the person who supplies that palliative drug the controller of the person who prefers to live...

Do we really want to see Inara in this light? It's just a question. Personally, I don't. I would prefer thinking that she would choose suicide over being taken by Reivers, or that she might offer that option to Kaylee. I guess I would prefer her to die as gracefully and beautifully as we have known her to live than to find out she is some sort of Bene Gesserit Witch.

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Tuesday, December 28, 2010 5:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
Is anyone else really bothered by these storylines? They are very unsettling, manipulative...

I agree. I was disturbed by Wash's sudden, brutal death, and mourn that his story is over. This whole thing with Inara and Reivers would just push me off the cliff. I would be disgusted and angry. No person or family could survive such a trauma and go on afterward. I don't know how they are going to realistically move them past the violent deaths of Book and Wash. There are limits to what the human mind and family dynamic can endure. People who reach their limit go mad. Families that reach their limit fall apart.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:27 AM

Agreed, Inara and the Reavers would have been a bit much, even though, concept wise, it would have been a heroic arc for her because no one survives being held hostage by Reavers, unless they have an anti rape toxin. And, of course no one would go back for someone held by Reavers except Mal, because this is Inara we're talking about. I guess it was to be another example of illustrating what Mal says and calls her is disconnected to how he feels about her.

It’s just a very horrific way for her to have to prove herself to him and earn his respect. I’m not sure if the means justify the ends with this kind of scenario. She would be ruined professionally.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 10:36 AM

In regards to Wash, I was more shocked than disturbed, it's a quick, sudden death, and he doesn't look like he suffered long. Zoe will bear the brunt of that loss. Again, it seems to purposely portray his actions as heroic in death, by landing the crew safely.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:39 AM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

The dynamics of this discussion still has not changed, despite what Tim Minear, Firefly writer, said at Fanboy Confidential. www.fanboy-confidential.com/interviews/episode-8-tim-minear/

Minear mentioned that the Inara vs The Reavers story had not been broken: the breaks in the story - the plot's turning points - have not been decided. That means it does not have to be Reaver Rapists. Inara could be imperiled by being Lost-In-Space. The important thing is she rescues herself and Mal apologizes to her after disrespecting her.

Someone like Jane Espenson could tell Whedon and Minear during a story conference that Reaver Rapists are bad for the story and, please, don't go there because it gives many people an allergic reaction. And when Whedon suggests an Inara/Kaylee or a Kaylee/River lesbian story (anybody here read Buffy-Season 8?), Espenson can shoot down those bad ideas, too, because those stories are for very small audiences watching cable TV or reading comics, not broadcast TV.

I may have discovered the secret sin of Joss Whedon. He did not have a story conference with other writers for the Serenity script. There were no PAID AND CREDITED writers for him to bounce ideas off. All he had was producers and Universal executives. What are producers and execs required to know, other than money? Next to nothing (Remember Joss vs the confused producers of Wonder Woman?). Nobody told Whedon to not kill Wash. If he was going to kill Wash, he needed to outline the story for Serenity II, beforehand, so the other writers could see where he was going with the story in the next movie. If Joss doesn't have a plan for the aftermath of dead Wash and dead Book, he is not allowed to kill them. When Harry Potter was published, there was an obvious plan for 6 more books. There needed to be a plan for the Serenity trilogy. I don't think there was.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 1:55 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Joss needed Serenity to be as dramatic as possible. A film in which all the BDHs survived would have satisfied the Browncoats, but for the casual viewer it would have seemed too pat, too clichéd, too within the norm.

What we got was epic; it had heroics, and it had tragic loss. Serenity is the better for it.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 3:25 PM

TWO

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Joss needed Serenity to be as dramatic as possible. A film in which all the BDHs survived would have satisfied the Browncoats, but for the casual viewer it would have seemed too pat, too clichéd, too within the norm.

What we got was epic; it had heroics, and it had tragic loss. Serenity is the better for it.

I agree with you, Wash and Book had to die. I think that their dying should change the entire direction of Serenity II. What I don't want is ordinary reality, where people die, there is grief, and life goes on. (So dull. See Serenity: Float Out for an example.) What I do want is Wash's death to be a stage 5 Cataclysm! I actually got a sci-fi idea of where to go next for that cataclysm. Maybe I should write a story so others can dump on it? Wash's death changes what happens in the two weeks immediately after Serenity ended. There is disaster! Nothing goes smoothly.

What I think is that Joss Whedon did not have specific ideas of what Serenity II and III would be about. Joss doesn't need his fingers broken. He needs help from other Professionals: writers PAID to criticize Joss' ideas and add some of their own. Writers with big egos and many produced scripts that he respects.

There is an hour of Jane Espenson and Tim Minear On Writing TV (Serenity LA 2009)
Not enough people have seen all 6 videos on Firefly

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:43 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
...no one survives being held hostage by Reavers...
Quote:

Well, River might, as she proved in the BDM.

Quote:
...It’s just a very horrific way for her to have to prove herself to him and earn his respect. I’m not sure if the means justify the ends with this kind of scenario. She would be ruined professionally.

Not only that. If I were Mal, seeing what she was capable of, sex with Inara would forever be out of the question. haha I just wouldn't want to go there. If you catch my drift.

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Wednesday, December 29, 2010 11:55 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Platonist:
In regards to Wash, I was more shocked than disturbed, it's a quick, sudden death, and he doesn't look like he suffered long. Zoe will bear the brunt of that loss. Again, it seems to purposely portray his actions as heroic in death, by landing the crew safely.

At what price? We learn later that Zoe is pregnant with Wash's child. That child is forever deprived of her father. Zoe is deprived of her beloved husband. Where is the good in any of that? People don't just "shake off" that kind of tragedy. The rest of the crew was heroic in that scenario. They were bloodied but they all got to walk away from it. Considering the child on the way, they arguably had less to live for than Wash did. I guess I just don't see how it's going to be a happy crew after that. I think Wash proved his heroism in War Stories. I think he deserved to live, and Zoe deserved to have her husband and that family deserved to be. It was the one mostly functional relationship amongst the entire crew. Maybe Joss had a problem with that. I think the relationship between Zoe and Wash grounded things on the ship.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
The dynamics of this discussion still has not changed, despite what Tim Minear, Firefly writer, said at Fanboy Confidential...

Thank you for making sense of what happened with the BDM. I have heard it said that Whedon and Minear wanted to go a lot darker with the series but that Fox exec's refused. In the interview you cited Minear said that the Inara vs Reaver rapefest is what convinced him to join the project, which makes me seriously wonder about his mental state.

The upshot seems to be that Fox deserves my thanks as much as Whedon/Minear, not only because Fox aired the show (albeit poorly) but also because they kept Whedon and Co. from ruining it. When Whedon had the chance of doing entirely what he wanted, he started killing off beloved characters and painting the story into a corner.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 1:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Joss needed Serenity to be as dramatic as possible. A film in which all the BDHs survived would have satisfied the Browncoats, but for the casual viewer it would have seemed too pat, too clichéd, too within the norm...

Tell that to J.J. Abrams. All of his Star Trek heroes lived and gee, he's gonna bring 'em all back in a sequel in 2012. He even gained an extra Spock in the bargain! I guess he didn't get the memo about possible casual viewer dissatisfaction if you don't kill off main characters. I don't think they're worrying about it as they're laughing all the way to the bank.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 2:18 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

You just lost all sympathy from me for mentioning that crapfest of a movie by JarJar Abrams. I don't care if it made money at the box office, because it was mainly the Star Trek title that did that, not what was on the screen. That would have been a much better movie if the entire crew had been put out of their misery.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Thursday, December 30, 2010 2:56 AM