(SPOILER) Preview pages from Star Wars/Serenity free comic book by two

So MUCH to say...

1.Han and Mal, so weird to see them in the same context since we've all been thinking it for a decade...
2.Zoe and the longest gestation in history

3. Ohhh, we're getting new passengers-can I squeal like Kaylee???
4.We're taking steampunkers for a ride now?? This ship just got more fun!!

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:32 AM

This reminds me of one of the funniest fanfics ever, where this eccentric guy steals Serenity and leaves the crew with a junker ship that's barely spaceworthy as compensation.

They chase him down, hijinks ensue. So good.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:03 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
So MUCH to say...
2.Zoe and the longest gestation in history

Having pregnant Zoe in the story is too similar to having a pregnant soldier in Afghanistan. A NATO commander wouldn't allow it.

And when Zoe/soldier gives birth, two of the babysitters are dear crazy pilot River and Jayne of the long, sharp knives. NATO would send mommy home with her baby. Anybody think Mal should leave Zoe somewhere safe? Anywhere is safer than Serenity. Even Afghanistan.

We know how Joss is handling Buffy's pregnancy -- he is terminating it. Two abortions in Whedon produced comics are probably too much, so Zoe had to go through with it. As Zoe would say, "To hell with what you think, Mal. I'm staying on Serenity with Wash's baby. It's my personal decision."

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:52 AM

MUTT999

I like how in both stories someone tries to buy the ships!
Guess I'll be on some line come May 5th.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Having pregnant Zoe in the story is too similar to having a pregnant soldier in Afghanistan. A NATO commander wouldn't allow it.

Speakin' from personal experience, not much changes for most pregnant women, except the sleeping and peeing schedule...I've seen many a pregnant gal work until the day they drop the thing. The problem comes when you HAVE the thing, as it's a lot harder to do things when they are attached to your outside anatomy, and screaming bloody murder if you delay ANYTHING...

Not ta mention, this isn't a warship. And I'm not so sure she'd be ANY safer on ground, what with the Rance types and reaver attacks and chronic lack of provisions. I'd feel safer on a ship with numbers of people to look after me, and the ability to leave being a distinct bonus.
Also, soldiers and pioneers and criminals have kids, sure it's a challenge and a different way of being, but life finds a way... Zoe would figure it out, somehow, like all moms do...

P.S. I doubt very much if either Jayne or River would intend to do any harm to a baby. I'm sure they'd have to put things away, and learn to lock doors...But I have this feeling even Jayne would be a little protective of the critter...eventually...

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
This reminds me of one of the funniest fanfics ever, where this eccentric guy steals Serenity and leaves the crew with a junker ship that's barely spaceworthy as compensation.

They chase him down, hijinks ensue. So good.

Where do I find that? Do you 'member the title?? Sounds interesting...

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 7:55 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
The problem comes when you HAVE the [baby], as it's a lot harder to do things when they are attached to your outside anatomy, and screaming bloody murder if you delay ANYTHING...

Not ta mention, this isn't a warship. And I'm not so sure she'd be ANY safer on ground, what with the Rance types and reaver attacks and chronic lack of provisions.

Serenity cannot be a safe place because there would be no stories for Joss to tell. Well, there would be dull stories. Who reads those?

Zoe is handy with a cutting torch. If Joss wanted it for her, she could find work at the shipyard where Serenity was rebuilt.

Why would Joss do that sensible thing? Because he doesn't want Zoe to be foolish and Mal to be too cowardly to order her off Serenity. But Joss could have Serenity going out into danger and returning to Zoe's comparatively peaceful life as a shipwright with a baby.

Since Joss allowed writer Patton Oswalt to impregnate Zoe in Serenity: Float Out, Joss has to handle the consequences in later stories. Or kill the baby. You know how Joss can be. If he hasn't killed anyone that young before, there's always a first time. . . .

Zoe at work on Serenity. She has a future in building ships with her baby in daycare.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:31 AM

Quote:
NATO would send mommy home with her baby. Anybody think Mal should leave Zoe somewhere safe? Anywhere is safer than Serenity. Even Afghanistan.

Probably. It's true that things are dangerous everywhere, but even a settlement in the very worst quadrant of the black wouldn't have a gun fight, explosion, breakdown, food shortage, water shortage, bounty hunter, crimelord retribution, Saffron, or reaver/bandit raid every week. Whereas Mal's luck is so awful that IS what it's like on Serenity, and it's actually one of his character traits in the RPG that at any moment in his life something randomly hazardous might suddenly occur.

I'd hope Zoe would eventually make this decision on her own, honestly. It's not necessarily the crew or even the ship, but for some reason Serenity is insanely dangerous. It's a magnet for danger.

Maybe she's even later along in the pregnancy when she goes to meet Wash's friends, and that's when she takes her leave?

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 8:32 AM

Quote:
Where do I find that? Do you 'member the title?? Sounds interesting...

Honor Among Thieves by Jiolee.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Serenity cannot be a safe place because there would be no stories for Joss to tell. Well, there would be dull stories. Who reads those?

Zoe is handy with a cutting torch. If Joss wanted it for her, she could find work at the shipyard where Serenity was rebuilt.

Zoe at work on Serenity. She has a future in building ships with her baby in daycare.

The safest place for a kid is with people who love it. A home HERE could be subject to the same things you might run across in space, fires, nuclear meltdowns, murders, theives, ect.

I've always thought that Mal and Zoe stayed together because they didn't have any other family (and because they respect each other.) In the Oswalt novel where does Zoe go?? To her family?? No, she goes to Wash's people...You'd have her go off to places unknown to people unknown alone with a baby to do manual labor the rest of her life?? And put it in a DAYCARE for buddha'a sake??... Yanno one of the main reasons I decided to stay home and not drop my kid off 9 years ago is because at the time there was this horrible rash of people beating, drugging, forcibly restraining kids, molesting them at daycare centers.... I couldn't do it. Nobody could care for her kid like she could, and you HAVE to have friends to help with kids or you pretty much go insane...

Oh, and in the graffic novels of Farscape they do pretty well raising a baby on there...Also, I have a sneaking suspicion it could be two babies...

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:52 AM

Quote:
A home HERE could be subject to the same things you might run across in space, fires, nuclear meltdowns, murders, theives, ect.

Just not as often. Which is really the main consideration here.

Actually, it kind of bothers me a little that Zoe appears to be blowing off Wash's wishes in regards to the upbringing he wanted to give his kids, especially when Zoe staying on Serenity kind of got him killed.

I really hope she does leave. The baby is almost certainly doomed if she stays.

Though honestly, I wouldn't have Zoe stay with Wash's friends either. Just drop by and say hi. Ultimately, parenting is whatever works, and isn't endangering to the child. Beyond that there's no way anyone can judge.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 10:59 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Imagine Zoe not pregnant. I think Serenity: Float Out, the first comic where she is pregnant, would have been better if Zoe had met, at the Jet Wash naming ceremony, a pregnant ex-girlfriend carrying Wash's child. At first Zoe thinks Wash had been cheating -- he had not. Jayne says something stupid about Wash in front of Zoe and she punches Jayne's nose at the ceremony. That's entertainment! The not very entertaining comic written by O. Patton was 3 strangers reminiscing about Wash's piloting skill with Zoe arriving late, on the last few pages.

Before Wash was hired as Serenity's pilot, he had split from his not-yet-pregnant girlfriend because he did not want a child. After his death the girlfriend has the baby. Imagine Zoe's regrets and conflicting emotions on the last page of this alternate Serenity: Float Out: she will never see Wash again and someone else will have his child. That might be enough to get stoical Zoe to breakdown in tears when she returns to the privacy of the cabin she shared with Wash.

That's how I solve the problem of keeping Wash's baby safe without making Zoe look like she doesn't know she is in great danger in every episode of Firefly.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 2:59 PM

I think you do an awful lot of romanticizing of what "coulda been" and a whole lot of ignoring what "is"...

Wash is dead. Zoe is preggers. Entertainment doesn't always go the way you want. This isn't an actual baby in actual harm anyways...You wanna be Captain of The Timeline of Never-Neverland, be my guest. Till Joss and Co. say otherwise, I'll soak up the current imagin-ality for what it is...fun.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 3:11 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I can't blame Two for trying, if certain things occur in the Firefly timeline in future I'll probably really have a significant problem, so I can't blame him for imagining other possibilities, he's doing better than I will do.

The problem with new stuff is that Firefly has become bigger than Joss, bigger than most things, so Joss, even though he's the creator of it, could totally screw it up and I'd have no recourse. So every time a new comic comes out and Byte reassures me that its okay I breathe a huge sigh of relief and that inevitable day of reckoning is posponed further.

As for Zoe though I see both sides of this issue, Byte says she should settle somewhere and that argument makes sense, safety is huge for little ones and Zoe's baby has to come first, when you have kids they need to be your no. 1. But on the other hand I can't think of a more important ingredient to child rearing than love, and there would be love in spades aboard Serenity for a wonderful new Wash/Zoe baby, more love from more people than it would have planet side. So I see both sides to this issue.

My logical self is with Byte, keep that baby safe. But my emotional self is with Wish, give that baby huge heaps of love and family.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 4:40 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Wash is dead. Zoe is preggers. Entertainment doesn't always go the way you want. This isn't an actual baby in actual harm anyways...You wanna be Captain of The Timeline of Never-Neverland, be my guest. Till Joss and Co. say otherwise, I'll soak up the current imagin-ality for what it is...fun.

Did anybody love Serenity: Float Out? I'm amazed Joss executive produced that stinker. And I don't care if it is canonical Firefly. The next time Joss lets Patton Oswalt write a comic, I am not buying it.

When children are added to a story, you get The Descendants or Take Shelter or The Tree of Life, all very fine movies, but none will have comic book sequels made. Adding one child (or two!) to Firefly will domesticate it. Or emasculate it. Neither are good for the average comic book buyer. Joss might as well put a wooden stake through Firefly. Expanding the story into parenthood will kill the Firefly comics.

Joss' choices are cruel. Either the baby must be sent out for adoption to save the comics or Zoe must leave Serenity. If only Patton Oswalt had the good sense to put Wash's baby into Wash's ex-girlfriend, we would have been entertained by the idea of Wash cheating on Zoe rather than horrified at how crappy Serenity: Float Out was.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:

When children are added to a story, you get The Descendants or Take Shelter or The Tree of Life, all very fine movies, but none will have comic book sequels made. Adding one child (or two!) to Firefly will domesticate it. Or emasculate it. Neither are good for the average comic book buyer. Joss might as well put a wooden stake through Firefly. Expanding the story into parenthood will kill the Firefly comics.

Like I said...FARSCAPE GRAFFIC NOVELS...which I don't even LIKE graffic novels to begin with, but, oh well...It's not like every episode would even be about the baby, hell- most of the time Zoe is kind of a bit player herself. She could always "opt-out" of the more dangerous work anyhoo... And maybe more new people for backup, yay!
Lots of people actually like babies, ya know...'Course I'm referring here to PEOPLE

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 5:41 PM

EBFIDDLER

Very interesting! Thanks for posting the links, Two.

A couple of comments.

It's very funny to see Han and Mal in such close juxtaposition, both responding to offers to buy their ships. I'm looking forward to seeing how the plots play out.

Cover art: absolutely fantastic. a work of love. Inside art: not so much. Oh well.

Argument over should Zoe stay/go / raise kid on ship/be a welder at a shipyard/put kid in daycare/meet Wash's ex-girlfriend -- well, I don't much see the point in arguing this. There are a gazillion fanfics out there that have tackled this question, each in different ways. While inserting a child into the context of Serenity as portrayed on the TV series or the movie doesn't make a lot of sense, the actions portrayed in series and movie have consequences. Anywhere except on TV (and perhaps in comics?), situations don't remain static. Life goes on and people mature and grow as a result of the stuff they're dealing with. Mal and Zoe post-movie are not the same exact people they were on the show. If Mal didn't learn something from Miranda, and losing a couple of good friends, and seeing his best friend widowed, then he's a hopeless idiot. Exactly *what* he learned is an open question. I can see Serenity evolving into the kind of place that Zoe could reasonably raise her child. It's just not at that place during the TV series or the movie. It all depends on what decisions are made post-movie, what kind of place Serenity becomes. My preference is to browse fanfics until I find one that suits my mood at the time. Everything from "Zoe dies in childbirth" to "Serenity becomes a floating nursery." Door's wide open.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:39 PM

Something I think might be an option is, even though the activity going on there might be inappropriate, I think the Heart of Gold brothel might be a good safehouse now that Rance is gone.

It's too bad Haven got trashed, that would also be a very nice place. Maybe some of the people managed to escape and rebuild? if so, they might offer Zoe a home and community close to where her husband is buried.

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Tuesday, February 28, 2012 6:45 PM

CHRISISALL

Ummm.... thrilled? Umm, yeah.

The Mal-like Chrisisall

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 3:08 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Oh, and in the graffic novels of Farscape they do pretty well raising a baby on there...Also, I have a sneaking suspicion it could be two babies...

From the example of the Farscape comics, I think adding a baby is an old and tired idea for Firefly comics. The Farscape comics are written by Keith R. A. DeCandido, who also wrote the Serenity novelization. If Joss hires DeCandido to write Firefly, I will pray that they don't borrow baby story ideas from the Farscape scripts.

Here is a page from the baby-is-crying-plot in Farscape #1, November 2008. In Farscape #21, July 2011, there is a baby-assassination-plot. As they say on Farscape, “What the frell! Are you frelling me?”

http://anonymouse.org/cgi-bin/anon-www.cgi/http://isohunt.com/torrent_
details/313608917/farscape?tab=summary

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:36 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Joss might as well put a wooden stake through Firefly.

Frankly, he did when he put the stake through Wash, both in reality and metaphorically.

I've had many discussions online with folks that dramatic change and growth doesn't need to come from death.
I see that as largely the easy out for lazy, limited or jaded screenwriters.

FLOAT OUT was weak tea.
Even if the story is "better" in the new comic,
it isn't a narrative I'm inclined to follow.
I'll leave that to the "Joss is Boss" crowd who will praise whatever he does,
and the "dark is better" crowd.
Hooray for ya'll that BDM SERENITY took FIREFLY in that direction,
but I'm not interested, engaged or entertained.

Mike
My Firefly/ Serenity Collection:
http://fireflydvd.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3541

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 5:58 AM

Hold on a minute. Calling Joss a jaded storyteller is probably accurate, and I didn't particularly like the use of death as a shock tactic. But dismissing everything post-movie because of it?

You're complaining that the movie made everything darker (too dark for you), so find me some genuine darkness in the post movie lore.

Heck, Zoe's even pregnant! I figured he wouldn't go there because it's bizarrely happy and optimistic and generous of Joss to give a character closure like that.

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 10:48 AM

AMDOBELL

Love the look of this freebie. Does anyone know whether it will be available to Browncoats here in England?

Ali D :~)
You can't take the sky from me...

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Wednesday, February 29, 2012 4:57 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Byte, I think you're being a little hard on Two, after all, you know I'm hesitant about post BDM cannon because of the way the movie ended, so I don't know that you can be so harsh on him. If he doesn't like post BDM then he doesn't like post BDM. I will dismiss things in post BDM land someday if things don't go my way too.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 3:21 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by RionaEire:
Hi Byte, I think you're being a little hard on Two, after all, you know I'm hesitant about post BDM cannon because of the way the movie ended, so I don't know that you can be so harsh on him. If he doesn't like post BDM then he doesn't like post BDM. I will dismiss things in post BDM land someday if things don't go my way too.

In Farscape #24 October 2011, someone went out the airlock, without a spacesuit, to save the baby.

When a baby is on a spaceship, someday somebody will die horribly to save that kid.
It's a cliché comics writers can't resist, same as TV can't resist a birthing scene, which happens on every show, including Firefly. Remember Heart of Gold?

It's just better not to have children on a spaceship. That way, nobody has to die . . . in a hackneyed plot twist.

P.S. It wasn't me; it was pennausamike who wrote: “I've had many discussions online with folks that dramatic change and growth doesn't need to come from death.
I see that as largely the easy out for lazy, limited or jaded screenwriters.”

Serenity novelization and Farscape comics are by Keith R. A. DeCandido. This is from the latest story DeCandido wrote for Farscape. Eventually the babysitter must die in space. It is an unbreakable writing rule when there is a baby and I don't want that happening to the women of Firefly:

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 4:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
It's just better not to have children on a spaceship. That way, nobody has to die . . . in a hackneyed plot twist.

P.S. It wasn't me; it was pennausamike who wrote: “I've had many discussions online with folks that dramatic change and growth doesn't need to come from death.
I see that as largely the easy out for lazy, limited or jaded screenwriters.”

PEOPLE DIE, all the time- THIS AIN'T DISNEY!!
AND they are just characters, fun as they are, their time was limited from the moment two brain cells rubbed together...Alan Tudyk is still alive and kickin, ya know. Tragedy is just a device to bring you along on the roller coaster.

If I was playing god, I'd find a way to knock someone off a least once a season. Routines are what you do in the morning, fun is supposed to be spontaneous- and sometimes, just like real life- UNEXPECTED..... The guy writes awesome characters, trust him just a tiny bit and you will still be entertained. I don't know if you ever watched Voyager, but anyone remember when they got rid of Kess and brought in Jerry Ryan?? Tell me THAT wasn't for the best, especially you guys

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 5:24 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
PEOPLE DIE, all the time- THIS AIN'T DISNEY!!

In Disney, the rule is the Princess falls in love.

In contrast, Star Trek and Buffy were about being brave and slaying evil. Were there episodes where no one was, at the very least, seriously injured? That would be rare & abnormal. TV adventure shows are killing machines. It is the holy rule -- Thou Shall Kill. The writers give the people what they expect.

Firefly is no different. It has to follow The Rule. It is just too bad that somebody on Firefly will eventually die while saving Zoe's baby from danger, but it can't be helped. The Rule rules all.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 5:46 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by pennausamike:
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Joss might as well put a wooden stake through Firefly.

Frankly, he did when he put the stake through Wash, both in reality and metaphorically.

I've had many discussions online with folks that dramatic change and growth doesn't need to come from death.
I see that as largely the easy out for lazy, limited or jaded screenwriters.

FLOAT OUT was weak tea.
Even if the story is "better" in the new comic,
it isn't a narrative I'm inclined to follow.
I'll leave that to the "Joss is Boss" crowd who will praise whatever he does,
and the "dark is better" crowd.
Hooray for ya'll that BDM SERENITY took FIREFLY in that direction,
but I'm not interested, engaged or entertained.

Being bitter and dismissive doesn't really make you sound like you're giving a mature and rational review. You don't like death. That's fine. It doesn't mean everyone who enjoyed the movie is a fanboy. Just accept that different people have different opinions. Joss was never going to please every single person with his movie. It's impossible.

I can fully understand not liking where a story ends up going. I'm a very judgmental person when it comes to works of fiction. Just ask Storymark. For instance, I'm not a fan of Zoe being pregnant. I'm not going to dismiss anyone who likes that development. To each their own.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 5:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

PEOPLE DIE, all the time- THIS AIN'T DISNEY!!
SNIP
Tragedy is just a device to bring you along on the roller coaster.

Not exactly.
Tragedy in the form of challenges to overcome is riding the roller coaster.
Death is leaving the character on the platform, never to be enjoyed again.
Killing beloved characters doesn't make Firefly more real OR better,
only...less...

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
If I was playing god, I'd find a way to knock someone off a least once a season.

My, what a delightful piece of work you would be producing.
And I, like many others, would simply choose not to watch it.
Killing off beloved characters in light-hearted action tales;
It's not clever,
it's not insightful or enlightening,
it's not commercial.
It satisfies a niche audience at the cost of greater acceptance.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Routines are what you do in the morning,
fun is supposed to be spontaneous-
and sometimes, just like real life- UNEXPECTED.....

Yeah, and we all know DYIN' makes fun even fun-er!
Loss of dreams, lost opportunities, lost relationships and friendships;
and not just loss, but CHANGE that doesn't go the way you expect, for both good and bad,
provides rich fodder for drama.
I'm not asking that the status quo rule,
only that the writers find substantive issues and loss and change to craft stories around.
I feel that killing a character is the cheap way out
and destroys dynamics that build audience acceptance of a fictional world.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
The guy writes awesome characters, trust him just a tiny bit and you will still be entertained.

No, I'm not being entertained.
Firefly is the only Whedon-verse story I like.
I don't care for Joss' predilection for killing characters; totally ruined Dr. Horrible for me.
I wanted to see Dr. Horrible turn his "evil" against phony do-gooders, not see a light-hearted romp turned into a THUD! morality tale.

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
I don't know if you ever watched Voyager, but anyone remember when they got rid of Kess and brought in Jerry Ryan?? Tell me THAT wasn't for the best, especially you guys

Are you SERIOUSLY comparing a crappy character like Kess to Wash?
Apples to Oranges.
The whole reason Kess left with no repercussions was because she brought little to the table in the first place.

Wash was half of just about the only mature married couple on TV, he was the "civilian" voice of reason for the crew, he was the husband and yet sometimes odd man out in the Zoe-Mal-Wash dynamic, he was the skilled pilot who rescued the crew with his skill, and as the main comic relief, he was the smart-ass who spun others action and words into a funny twist.

With his needless death,
all those avenues of storytelling and character building are dead, also.

Obviously, your view of drama is more in sync with Joss's.
That should mean you'll be happy with more of Joss's projects, where for me, pre Wash's death Firefly is kind of an anomaly.

Happy viewing,
Mike

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 6:08 AM

Riona: That was actually directed at Mike. Two doesn't like that Wash and Book died, but I've never seen him wholesale dismiss the so far unobjectionable comics that have been produced since the movies.

I mean, you can't even CALL them dark, so I don't know what the heck anyone's talking about.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 6:15 AM

Quote:
In Disney, the rule is the Princess falls in love.

Actually, it really is very rare for a hero character to die permanently in a Disney movie. And even then sometimes it's kinda like they didn't even really die because they can still talk with the living via booming ghost god clouds.

So it actually is kind of a thing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DisneyDeath

But, yeah. Rule of draaaaaaaaama.

Although it's bizarre to kill off the mysterious mentor character before they've revealed the source of their mysteriousness and furthered the plot, but maybe that whole recording eye thing will become a plot device for that.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 6:32 AM

Quote:
Not exactly.
Tragedy in the form of challenges to overcome is riding the roller coaster.
Death is leaving the character on the platform, never to be enjoyed again.
Killing beloved characters doesn't make Firefly more real OR better,
only...less...

Depends. Some death is very meaningful and an essential part of a character's myth arc. It changes the way the audience perceives the character and their motivations, often improving the perception and generating sympathy, if not outright redeeming a character.

Shock death doesn't do that, however, so I'll give you some credit there. But I'm still objecting to your calling all the post movie stuff "dark" because it's really not.

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I feel that killing a character is the cheap way out
and destroys dynamics that build audience acceptance of a fictional world.

Again, not always.

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I don't care for Joss' predilection for killing characters; totally ruined Dr. Horrible for me.

See, now I think Dr. Horrible was actually a good use of this. It was a very important part of the story and the development for all the characters, even for Penny. And looking at the story narratively and symbolically, it was pretty much inevitable.

Dr. Horrible wasn't just a lark, it was a story about who is really a hero. And honestly, I don't think the hero was Doctor Horrible OR Captain Hammer. What happened in Dr. Horrible was essential to impart the MEANING to the story. A romp about a psuedo-villain sticking it to phony do-gooders might have been fun, if possibly VERY hypocritical, but ultimately meaningless.

Stories aren't about WHEEEE FUN! A writer tells a story not to entertain you, but to enlighten you, to give you a message, and hopefully one that endures. If you're entertained in the meanwhile, then they're a good story teller who knows how to keep an audience. But I wouldn't mistake the entertainment for the story, or feel betrayed just because some deeper meaning got into the middle of your crime caper or super hero slug fest.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Stories aren't about WHEEEE FUN!
A writer tells a story not to entertain you, but to enlighten you,
SNIP

This is at the core of my point.
I feel the opposite.
The purpose of fiction, especially episodic television is to entertain.
If enlightenment is part of the mix, THAT is the sign of a good writer.

There are plenty of venues to enlighten folks, and if they are entertaining,so much the better.

But I do not look to entertainment to reinforce the problems of real life, but to take me out of them for awhile.
It should FEEL real, without BEING real (as the Firefly series was.)

If I want real, I'll go to work where they pay me to be there.
If I'm paying for entertainment, I want uplifting, not enlightenment.
That is my preference, and if Firefly ceases to provide it, I'm disappointed, is all.

By the way, I'm not saying the comics thus far have been dark,
(especially until "Float Out" they were all pre-SERENITY)
just saying the post-SERENITY dead Wash vibe is a downer for me.

Joss brings back a turd like Dobson, but not Wash...
...(shakes head in dumbfoundedness)...

Mike

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:12 AM

Quote:
I feel the opposite.

Why do you think the very first story teller started narrating?

I guarantee you have to have a story teller before you have an audience.

So, ultimately, tracing all the way back through the ages to the very first story, all stories have one single, and very important goal, which defines why humans create stories.

Therefore, if they fail to achieve that goal, I'm not sure we can really call them all that good as stories.

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If enlightenment is part of the mix, THAT is the sign of a good writer.

So, I'd argue it's the other way around. If you don't have a message, you CAN'T be a good writer.

It's the writers who pull on the heartstrings and illuminate truth in fiction who are remembered, not the ones who write silly frivolity for mass-consumption.

Quote:
saying the post-SERENITY dead Wash vibe is a downer for me.

I guess that's up to you, though I'm still not sure how the way they've handled it has been such a big downer. Bitter-sweet, maybe.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 7:44 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I guess that's up to you, though I'm still not sure how the way they've handled it has been such a big downer. Bitter-sweet, maybe.

Joss killed Buffy. That was a dead-end, but he brought her back with magic. There was a plan, a scheme that allowed for more Buffy. Joss could have had a scheme for Serenity 2.

Joss never shared where the trilogy was going next, so it was possible that Wash could have been in Serenity 2. Joss would use science rather than Buffy-style magic on Wash. My favorite example of reversing a story trapped in a dead-end is Indistinguishable From Magic by kieyra www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=5185 which begins, “River knows that Miranda wasn't the only secret they had.”

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:00 AM

Lotta good arguments since this morning!

My only other thing to add is a line from Daria;
"I think he's saying that it's the writers duty to steer readers toward more conscientious behavior, no matter how dull that makes the story"

This is why I don't like a lotta defined morals or rules in my entertainment. I'm an adult, I don't need anyone else's moral's- I have my own. I don't mind when it's posed as a question or left open-ended to get you to think and come to your own conclusion...but Hollywood has forgotten how to do this and gotten preachy. You want morals and rules? Go to church. Entertainment to me is alll about the what-if, the possibilities, constantly looking at things from a different perspective AND IT BEING EXCITING!...For some- entertainment is all about tuning in to the same thing over and over for mostly comfort and reasurance and basically turning off real life... Which, I will admit that in rougher times in my life, I've watched drivel because it was comforting, so I do get that.

But it's a story about a kludged spaceship run by anti-heroes doing arguably nefarius deeds. People should die. People should be born. Whoring should be done, and guns should be drawn, and sometimes- they should have lazers!

It's a story that makes you think...but it's even better entertainment, at least fer me....

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 9:26 AM

A message doesn't mean moralistic or heavy handed. A message can be something as simple as triumph over adversity, and the dangers of consolidated power.

A story has to have meaning for us to relate to it, for us to feel the characters, sympathize with their hardships, and even incorporate the very idea of them and what they represent into ourselves.

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Thursday, March 1, 2012 11:20 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

I wasn't really kene on Wash and Book dying either Mike, because there is sooooooooo much more that can be done with those charactors. In my opinion the only reason to kill off two charactors like that is if you really think this is the end of the story. Maybe Joss didn't know that he was going to get more oppertunities to do Firefly stuff so he killed them thinking it was the end of the saga so why not. When I list the four reasons I don't like the movie that is one of them, but it isn't the most important of them. I do read post BDM fic and enjoy it inspite of myself, but yes I do think killing Wash and Book was a dumb thing to do.

Mike I'm like you, I don't really enjoy any of Joss' other work. There were aspects of Dollhouse that I found interesting, but I couldn't sit and watch it based on certain personal ethics issues, I just had my friends tell me what happened on it when they thought those afore mentioned interesting aspects were present.

I thought Doctor Horrible sucked brick, I was bored and the end was weird. But I know a lot of browncoats like Joss' other stuff and that's fine for them.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Sunday, March 4, 2012 3:11 PM

DEWCREW919

I know there's been some talk that Dark Horse would be interested in an ongoing series, but does anyone else think this title "Serenity: Firefly Class 03-K64" sounds like they're setting it up for such?

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Monday, March 5, 2012 4:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by DewCrew919:
I know there's been some talk that Dark Horse would be interested in an ongoing series,
but does anyone else think this title "Serenity: Firefly Class 03-K64" sounds like they're setting it up for such?

I didn't get that.
That is just the model number of the ship:
the "aught-three" with extenders and K64 series modification block.

Mike

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Monday, March 5, 2012 4:43 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by DewCrew919:
I know there's been some talk that Dark Horse would be interested in an ongoing series, but does anyone else think this title "Serenity: Firefly Class 03-K64" sounds like they're setting it up for such?

No. “03-K64” stinks for a subtitle.

A better title would be “It's Never Easy”. That is written next to Joss Whedon, Executive Producer on the credits.

Serenity comics could learn from Farscape comics, which has imaginative subtitles. These are by Keith R. A. DeCandido, who wrote the Serenity novel: Getting the Band Back Together, Divided We Stand, Talkin' Kkore Blues, The Peace to End All Wars, The Beginning of the End of the Beginning, If You Can Be an Idiot I Can Be an Idiot, I Spit on Your Grave, I'm Your Daddy, Reunited and It Feels So Bad, A Many-Splendor'd Thing, Brotherly Hate, The Long Tenka of the Law, Error and Trial.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity," where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, March 5, 2012 5:12 AM