NEWS HEADLINE DISCUSSIONS

Do You Want To Change The Future Of Television?

POSTED BY: NEWSADMIN
UPDATED: Tuesday, March 25, 2003 21:59
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Thursday, January 30, 2003 10:47 AM

NEWSADMIN


Perhaps this is the future of television:

Quote:

TV-Next was created in an effort to save quality television programming. How many times have you really enjoyed a tv show, only to have it canceled? Bad timeslots or inadequate promotion are often to blame for good shows getting the axe, and letter-writing campaigns just don't go far enough to keep this programming alive. After a lot of consideration, we think that we may have come across an idea that the networks will listen to: Money.

Let's face it - the networks aren't in business to make us happy. They're in business to make money. If the programs that they have on the air fail to attract sufficient ratings, they can't charge enough for advertising to cover production costs and still make a profit.

Notice, however, that we didn't say "viewership", but "ratings". In the case of many popular shows, viewership can be quite high without attracting those all-important ratings numbers. It is our belief that the television viewing public has reached a critical mass - that for the first time ever a means exists to unite those disenfranchised viewers that are tired of losing out on their favorite entertainment because the families with the Nielsen boxes didn't "get it".

If you're one of the countless viewers who feel that your voice isn't being heard, that you're powerless in the face of network programming decisions, and that you'd like to make a change, we encourage you to read more about how it works.



To learn more, you can go here:

http://www.tv-next.com/intro1.shtml


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Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:34 AM

LOSTANGEL


I already signed up. I've been yelling about this for ages. What better way to show how displeased we are by shutting out the networks all together?

This is one bandwagon I would not only jump on, I'll serve the peanuts, and pass out the headphones to anyone else flyin' the bandwagon express!!!

Ye-Hah!!!

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Thursday, January 30, 2003 11:53 AM

BOLT


I've signed up too. Don't know if it will work, but it can't hurt. Anything we can do to save the show! Great to see someone has taken the idea for subscription television and is trying to turn it into a reality. Imagine how cool this will be if it works!

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Thursday, January 30, 2003 7:11 PM

SUCCATASH


I signed up too, dammit!

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Thursday, January 30, 2003 8:45 PM

SUINEGAGPF


I signed up. However, I think they are overlooking a couple of major drawbacks to what they are proposing. So I sent them some feedback. They will have to demonstrate that the risk associated with these drawbacks can be mitigated if they hope to convince the affected networks, sponsors, and studios.

An excerpt from my email follows:
Interesting concepts. However, both plans have obvious flaws.

Plan 1: Offline Distribution
Given the rampant piracy that has been going on with current episodes of Firefly, I have to wonder how many people would actually subscribe and how many would wait for the pirated copies to show up on Ebay or through fan message sites. Additionally, it is unlikely that every person in a fan cluster would subscribe; more than likely they'd chip in and share one set of DVDs.

Plan 2: Time-Shifted Airing
I would suspect that most people would record a program that was aired between 2AM and 5 AM rather than watch it at that time. Whether it is recorded on VHS or TiVo, the commercials can be fast-forwarded through. I don't think the Sponsors would be happy with this arrangement. (I think this is the reason why there are only infomercials on during this time period.)

Of the two, I like plan one the best. Eventually I'll get around to adding all of my favorite TV shows to my DVD collection.

----

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Friday, January 31, 2003 5:46 AM

GREYBARD


Most of the piracy occurring is because there *is* no other way to see any Firefly at all, unless you were lucky enough to tape it, like me. We can't tell if these "pirates" would pirate if they had legitimate, Joss and actor paying sources for the show.

Give the people who missed it the first time around or who live in non-Fox-having countries the benefit of the doubt.

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Friday, January 31, 2003 7:22 AM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by suinegagpf:
Plan 2: Time-Shifted Airing
I would suspect that most people would record a program that was aired between 2AM and 5 AM rather than watch it at that time. Whether it is recorded on VHS or TiVo, the commercials can be fast-forwarded through. I don't think the Sponsors would be happy with this arrangement. (I think this is the reason why there are only infomercials on during this time period.)

Of the two, I like plan one the best. Eventually I'll get around to adding all of my favorite TV shows to my DVD collection.

----



I liked plan 2 best... and please correct me if I'm wrong - but I understood that the idea of plan 2 (like plan 1) was that subscribers were paying per episode... with the result that they may or may not need as much advertising revenue! And if shows are still produced for 44 minutes because of the potential for moving a show up to prime time, then networks can squeeze more programming into this graveyard timeslot, making it that much more valuable...

And... tivo statistics are collectable... I would hope that such a network would take advantage of that statistic to make future programming decisions...

QT



QueenTiye, Companion Academy drop-out!

Shamelessly gushing over Mal...

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Saturday, February 1, 2003 10:44 PM

TVNEXT


As a courtesy to the board, I'm going to copy 'n paste my emailed response to SUINEGAGPF here...

* * * *

> Plan 1:
> Given the rampant piracy that has been going on with current
> episodes of Firefly, I have to wonder how many people would
> actually subscribe and how many would wait for the pirated
> copies to show up on Ebay or through fan message sites.

That's exactly what we're trying to find out. We'll know that we've succeeded when we have enough people registered to offer content at a reasonable price. If everyone would prefer to copy, they'll have to make a decision - pay and keep the show alive, or copy and let it be cancelled?

> Additionally, it is unlikely that every person in a fan cluster
> would subscribe; more than likely they'd chip in and share one
> set of DVDs.

Certainly possible, in which case we'll have to work either to keep the price low enough for groups to justify paying for each individual, or else devise an alternate pricing structure to account for group purchases. These are all questions that we hope to be able to answer in the near future.


> Plan 2:
> I would suspect that most people would record a program that was
> aired between 2AM and 5 AM rather than watch it at that time.

Absolutely. For this reason, we think that there may be partnership opportunities with DVR manufacturers.


> Whether it is recorded on VHS or TiVo, the commercials can be
> fast-forwarded through. I don't think the Sponsors would be
> happy with this arrangement. (I think this is the reason why
> there are only infomercials on during this time period.)

People can do this for prime time programming. And they do. Yet, somehow, commercial television stays on the air. As for the reason that infomercials occupy the late night timeslots, it is primarily because most viewers have gone to sleep (meaning that advertisers reach fewer sets, and are therefore less willing to pay for airtime). There's a strict correlation between ratings and advertising dollars.


> Of the two, I like plan one the best. Eventually I'll get
> around to adding all of my favorite TV shows to my DVD collection.

Let's just hope that they continue to produce your favorite shows long enough to compile a season's worth on DVD. We'll keep our fingers crossed, but in the mean time we're going to keep pushing to make the voice of the viewing audience heard. :-)

Best regards,

Jim



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Sunday, February 2, 2003 7:43 AM

SUINEGAGPF


Quote:

Originally posted by TVNext:
People can do this for prime time programming. And they do. Yet, somehow, commercial television stays on the air.



My point is that advertisers can't as easily dismiss ratings for a show where it is unknown how many people are actually watching it as it is aired. During prime time, a fair percentage of the viewers are probably watching it or watching while taping. During the early morning hours, the majority of the people watching it as it airs will be the same people who watch whatever normally airs in that timeslot. The remaining viewers will be recording it. I suspect the only advertisers you'll be able to attract are the ones who normally advertise at that time. I doubt that the revenue made from those ads would even cover 5% of the per episode cost of a TV show.

Thanks for replying. I hope you are successful with your proposal.

(Actually, I'm predicting the demise of commercial television within 25 years unless there is a major paradigm shift within the advertising world. When people are forced to buy HDTVs or converter boxes, I figure that'll eliminate most of the financially challenged viewers. And I figure in about 10 years most of the remaining people will have TiVo or some equivalent which will make TV commercials no longer a viable advertising means. The only way I see commercial television surviving is if they focus less on revenue generated solely from the commercial interuptions and instead focus on using banner ads and product placement. And then follow up with interactive guides and other promotional merchandise featuring both the TV show and it's sponsors.)

----

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Sunday, February 2, 2003 9:00 AM

RADEGUND


Quote:


Actually, I'm predicting the demise of commercial television within 25 years unless there is a major paradigm shift within the advertising world.



I can't recall where I saw it, but I remember reading about one TV producer's idea to replace advertising with product placements. Instead of seeing ads for Coke and Toyota, you'll see the cast drinking Coke and driving Toyotas. This wouldn't work well for a show set in the future like Firefly, though.

There's an article over at CNN.com about a company that's distributing independent movies on DVD directly to people who have signed up for the service. It's for people who have no access to independent film festivals who want to see these movies that will never make it to the big screen. It's not quite the same situation as we're in with Firefly, but it's an interesting example of people thinking of new ways of distribution.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/SHOWBIZ/Movies/02/02/wkd.dvd.club.ap/index.htm
l


Radegund

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Monday, February 3, 2003 1:18 PM

ALICIA


I am mostly posting to keep this up a while longer. Have you ALL signed on? Have you passed this around to your twenty closest friends? Remind them that this isn't just for Firefly or Farscape but any show you ever loved that was cancelled (in spirit anyway).

By the way, is this Jeremy-the-DVD-Guy's venture or someone else's?

Also, I'd pay $10 per episode and suggest you increase your choice of dollar amounts beyond $5! Then we'd only need half as many people ;-)

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Monday, February 3, 2003 3:57 PM

GUAILO


Okay...neat idea, but here are my reservations:

1) Most importantly, there's no actual address for these guys. Typically, if there is no mailing address you can bet it's a scam. Their only links are to fan "save my show" sites and not to any of the official sites for the shows/networks running things. If they were really all that benevolent, I'd expect more forthrightness as to who they really are. All their e-mail links only open to domain-named e-mails. Not particularly winning me over as authentic. It sounds like a couple of guys that have worked out a way to get people's e-mails and private info in order to get more via the web again. Why am I so suspicious?

Quote:

Are donations tax-deductible?

Not yet. The approval process for status as a charitable organization can take 4-6 months, which is time that we don't think we have right now. Donations, therefore, are not tax-deductible - but they are good karma.



I bet they are "good karma" particularly since there's no way to tell where the donation is really being sent.

Not only that, folks, but the name on the Amazon Paypage is someone named Jim Magdych, of whom a quick google search will tell you is Security Research Manager at something called Network Associates, Inc. His name is pretty wide spread on many net articles as a "net snoop" hunting down hackers and virus inducing weasles like the blokes who crashed all those MS Servers in Asia last week. Here's a sample of what this guys apparently does and works to prevent:

http://www.crmdaily.com/perl/story/7086.html

2) The cost of DVD replication is nominal. It's the cost of making the master that is rather high, but one thing is not addressed: The cost of production. Who or what covers that? Presumably it's the "sponsor" or the "consumer" by the flow charts, and yes, if a million people were in the system outlined then each would merely need to pay $2 per episode for a show like Firefly. My reservations lie in that there is an up-front cost of producing shows and investors handle that, right? So who exactly is investing in shows with no guaranteed audience? The "sponsor"? Of course not. The only link in the chain that can possibly get the cost deffered to them is the consumer and that's you and me.

The shere magnitude of money handling seems unwieldy for a couple of guys and a start up company and the cost defferal for inception and pre-production is not accounted for in either plan. It simply states that "If you think it sucks that Show X got canceled, boy do we have a deal for you." and then you can:

(A) register...but for what exactly and with whom? OR
(B) Donate money...but for what exactly and to whom? And you don't even get a reciept...

3) Time shifting...well, summed up I see two money arrows going from "consumer" to TVNext/Sponsor, and that's assuming that a partnership exists.

4) Looking at the source code for the Home Page of TV Next results in two names, "Magdych" and "Stjernstrom", of which the first, evidently is Jim Magdytch and since the e-mail account for the second guy is "magnus@" I searched Google for Magnus Stjernstrom and guess what: Product marketing manager at Network Associates.

Network Associates is this company:

http://www.nai.com/

What do you think they do?

Stop guys posing as NAI execs from pillaging adressee info to invade servers and pirate further info or release viruses.

Yes, Network Asscociates is the distrivutor for MacAfree and Sniffer anti-virus software.

I say, sign up at your own risk. That, and check out my quote...

Mal: ?The next time you decide to stab me in the back, have the guts to do it to my face.?

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Monday, February 3, 2003 10:21 PM

TVNEXT


*sigh*

I'm sorry that you felt the need to make a comment about our personal lives in a public forum without first attempting to contact us, but we're certainly not trying to hide anything... we wouldn't have used our real names on the site if we were. We're happy to answer questions - you just have to ask.

Comments:

> 1) Most importantly, there's no actual address for these guys.
> Typically, if there is no mailing address you can bet it's a scam.

No scam... We're just tired of seeing good shows get cancelled. We saw a chance to make a difference, and we're trying. That's it.


> Their only links are to fan "save my show" sites and not to any of
> the official sites for the shows/networks running things. If they
> were really all that benevolent, I'd expect more forthrightness as to
> who they really are. All their e-mail links only open to domain-named
> e-mails. Not particularly winning me over as authentic. It sounds
> like a couple of guys that have worked out a way to get people's e-
> mails and private info in order to get more via the web again. Why am
> I so suspicious?

Efforts to deal directly with the networks seem to have failed. If you would like us to add those links, though, we're happy to do so. As far as the site is concerned, we're just fans trying to keep our favorite shows alive. We've spent our own money registering and hosting the site, and our own time putting it together. Donations are welcome, but registration is absolutely free.


> * SNIP *
>
> Not only that, folks, but the name on the Amazon Paypage is someone
> named Jim Magdych, of whom a quick google search will tell you is
> Security Research Manager at something called Network Associates,
> Inc. His name is pretty wide spread on many net articles as a "net
> snoop" hunting down hackers and virus inducing weasles like the
> blokes who crashed all those MS Servers in Asia last week. Here's a
> sample of what this guys apparently does and works to prevent:

I no longer work there, but that's where I met Magnus. We still spend time chatting about the TV shows that we both enjoy, and it was during one of these conversations that we tried to come up with a way to keep Firefly flying.


> 2) The cost of DVD replication is nominal.

Nominal when you're making one. Not nominal when you're making and shipping a million copies. Compared to those costs, in fact, mastering a disc is a negligible expense.


> It's the cost of making the master that is rather high, but one thing
> is not addressed: The cost of production. Who or what covers that?
> Presumably it's the "sponsor" or the "consumer" by the flow charts,
> and yes, if a million people were in the system outlined then each
> would merely need to pay $2 per episode for a show like Firefly. My
> reservations lie in that there is an up-front cost of producing shows
> and investors handle that, right? So who exactly is investing in
> shows with no guaranteed audience? The "sponsor"? Of course not. The
> only link in the chain that can possibly get the cost deffered to
> them is the consumer and that's you and me.

You're absolutely right. The whole point of this project is to determine if there are enough fans who would pay to directly subsidize most or all of the production and distribution costs. We hope so. We don't know for certain either way. Unless we try, though, these shows will be cancelled by default.


> The shere magnitude of money handling seems unwieldy for a couple of
> guys and a start up company and the cost defferal for inception and
> pre-production is not accounted for in either plan.

First, we're talking about shows that are already in production and have more or less fixed production costs. Second, WE'RE NOT COLLECTING ANY MONEY. Not until we have enough people to make a difference. If we reach that point, or seem to be getting close, then of course we will invest in the infrastructure necessary to collect and disburse the funds.


> It simply states that "If you think it sucks that Show X got
> canceled, boy do we have a deal for you." and then you can:
> (A) register...but for what exactly and with whom? OR

To show your support. Your info stays with us, and is never used for any other purpose.


> (B) Donate money...but for what exactly and to whom? And you don't
> even get a reciept...

You should get a receipt from either Amazon or PayPal. Any donations collected go directly towards operating costs. That's it.


> 3) Time shifting...well, summed up I see two money arrows going
> from "consumer" to TVNext/Sponsor, and that's assuming that a
> partnership exists.

If you have questions about the flow charts, ask. These are simplified versions intended to represent several of the many ways that fans could participate in funding shows that are otherwise not profitable enough for the networks to continue broadcasting. As we've said many times, we don't even know yet if there are enough fans to support such an effort. When we do, we'll base our activity around the level of support and the desire of those who have registered.


> 4) Looking at the source code for the Home Page of TV Next results in
> two names, "Magdych" and "Stjernstrom", of which the first, evidently
> is Jim Magdytch and since the e-mail account for the second guy
> is "magnus@" I searched Google for Magnus Stjernstrom and guess what:
> Product marketing manager at Network Associates.

You don't even have to look at the source - it's right there on the bottom of every page. As I said, we used to work together. Shouldn't you be glad that we actually exist? :-)


> Network Associates is this company:
> http://www.nai.com/
> What do you think they do?
>
> Stop guys posing as NAI execs from pillaging adressee info to invade
> servers and pirate further info or release viruses.

Who do you work for? And does it matter, as long as you're a fan?


> Yes, Network Asscociates is the distrivutor for MacAfree and Sniffer
> anti-virus software.
>
> I say, sign up at your own risk.

And we say, don't sign up at Firefly's risk. If you don't want to participate, that's fine. If you have questions, we're listening. Scepticism is ok (even good), but we would appreciate a little courtesy in the future.

Best regards,

Jim

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Tuesday, February 4, 2003 6:00 AM

GUAILO


Jim,

Not to completely hijack the show, but you really didn't adress my concerns and I'll let my comments stand and let the folks here decide. I appreciate your response but it just still doesn't seem like anything but a database of people's adresses that is being collected for a purpose that, as yet, does not exist. Your last names are not anywhere on the site except in the source, and that concerns me. As someone trying to start a company, I understand the fine line between a public operational efficiency and maintaining one's anonymity, but It seems like being more forthright would be the better idea. Put your personal emails up or a derivision of them but at least put a bio that can be verified, otherwise skeptics like myself will do precisely the same thing I did, but not take the time to voice thier concerns and, if it's legitimate, you lose anyway.

Of course, if you two did work for NAI then one of the most recent thing you looked into was server fraud and tampering where databases are used in info-theft. Lot's of that on the web. I just thought it was odd that someone with your background would maintain a simple database of people with no means for them to verify your intentions, information or even existance. Perhaps I'm naive or paranoid, but if you are who you say you are, you can see my point I'm sure.

Quote:

You don't even have to look at the source - it's right there on the bottom of every page. As I said, we used to work together. Shouldn't you be glad that we actually exist? :-)


You dont actually exist and for that matter, neither do I. All you are is a single post here and an e-mail adress there, as am I. That's the beauty of the internet. But where someone trying to start a company is concerned, some of that anonymity should be expected to be sacrificed.

Besides, I'm not really sure, but I can almost guarantee that Blockbuster video's existance proves that people are willing to follow the basics of your plan. Signature would suffice to determine intrest in your scheme, but personal info isn't necessary at all to start a company. To claim that only reinforces my concerns and suspicions.

Quote:

Who do you work for? And does it matter, as long as you're a fan?


I'm a grapic designer and a sci-fi fan. Who I work for isn't important and the reason is that I'm not obtaining private information about people for "plan to be named later" with no means of verification of myself, my collegues or my company. It's just good business practice to say who you are, where you are and then hit people with the mission statement.

Now, you may be 100% on the up-and-up, but I wouldn't be a sci-fi fan if I didn't point out the inconsistancies I believe exist in your site and your claims. I feel a responsibility to the shows I'm a fan of and to the people on this site to speak my mind because of the potential for it to be exponetially more damaging than helpful should it be a scam.

Good luck to you,
Cliff

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Tuesday, February 4, 2003 7:38 AM

TVNEXT


Cliff -

I'm curious as to whether or not you've read the privacy policy or the registration guidelines. The only information we require is a name and address. Just like a petition.

Quote:


I appreciate your response but it just still doesn't seem like anything but a database of people's adresses that is being collected for a purpose that, as yet, does not exist.



The purpose most definitely exists - to save Firefly. We want to find out if there are enough fans who support the idea of paying for content to make a real pitch to the studios and networks. I can't make it any plainer than that.


Quote:


Your last names are not anywhere on the site except in the source, and that concerns me.



They're all over. See the bottom of every page? There they are. If you click on the donation links, they're there, too.


Quote:


As someone trying to start a company, I understand the fine line between a public operational efficiency and maintaining one's anonymity, but It seems like being more forthright would be the better idea. Put your personal emails up or a derivision of them but at least put a bio that can be verified, otherwise skeptics like myself will do precisely the same thing I did, but not take the time to voice thier concerns and, if it's legitimate, you lose anyway.



As of right now this is a purely volunteer effort designed to raise awareness and gauge public response. Would including an anonymous Hotmail address make you more comfortable than a legitimately registered domain name address? I can't imagine why.

Think of this like taking a survey - a bio is completely irrelevant to the process. If enough people sign up, and we start conducting financial transactions with fans and studios, suddenly your request becomes reasonable.


Quote:


Of course, if you two did work for NAI then one of the most recent thing you looked into was server fraud and tampering where databases are used in info-theft. Lot's of that on the web. I just thought it was odd that someone with your background would maintain a simple database of people with no means for them to verify your intentions, information or even existance. Perhaps I'm naive or paranoid, but if you are who you say you are, you can see my point I'm sure.



If people have concerns, they ask. If they don't like the response, they don't sign up.


Quote:


You dont actually exist and for that matter, neither do I. All you are is a single post here and an e-mail adress there, as am I. That's the beauty of the internet. But where someone trying to start a company is concerned, some of that anonymity should be expected to be sacrificed.



As of right now, TV-Next is essentialy a petition. It's an idea that we think has merit, and one that we're willing to spend time developing. We're not asking for anonymity - just a signature.


Quote:


Besides, I'm not really sure, but I can almost guarantee that Blockbuster video's existance proves that people are willing to follow the basics of your plan. Signature would suffice to determine intrest in your scheme, but personal info isn't necessary at all to start a company. To claim that only reinforces my concerns and suspicions.



Once more, all we ask for is a signature. The rest is information that can help us fine-tune our proposal. As we say on the site, if you don't want to tell us - don't.


Quote:


I'm a grapic designer and a sci-fi fan. Who I work for isn't important and the reason is that I'm not obtaining private information about people for "plan to be named later" with no means of verification of myself, my collegues or my company. It's just good business practice to say who you are, where you are and then hit people with the mission statement.



Yet again, we require nothing in the way of private information. TV-Next offers several possible solutions, and our hope is that the fans who express an interest in it will help us to create something that best suits their needs and desires.


Quote:


Now, you may be 100% on the up-and-up, but I wouldn't be a sci-fi fan if I didn't point out the inconsistancies I believe exist in your site and your claims. I feel a responsibility to the shows I'm a fan of and to the people on this site to speak my mind because of the potential for it to be exponetially more damaging than helpful should it be a scam.



I think that your definition of sci-fi fan must differ from mine, but I freely concede your right to ask questions. In the future, I would encourage you to ask them directly. We're very responsive, and very forthcoming to anyone who contacts us.

Best regards,

Jim

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Tuesday, February 4, 2003 10:36 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


I took a look at the website and must say that I was intrigued. I am looking into it, but I must admit that the concept is a very sound one.

"May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one."


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Tuesday, March 25, 2003 9:59 PM

JASONZZZ



Read this about how TiVo gathered info on
live viewer responses off from their TiVo
boxes... Most Paused, Most Rewound during
the Oscars....

http://www.adage.com/news.cms?newsId=37446

could this be the future of polling?

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