Batman Begins *SPOILERS* by Misguided By Voices

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Batman Begins *SPOILERS*

POSTED BY: MISGUIDED BY VOICES
UPDATED: Tuesday, June 21, 2005 22:49
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VIEWED: 3831
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Sunday, June 19, 2005 5:19 AM

BB may have overtaken Spiderman as my favourite comic book adapation, and by quite a margin.

Stuff I didn't like:

- No action sequence worth writing home about. Meh. What are you gonna do?

- Lack of a "theme" - though there seemed to be the beginnings of a theme there, which if they were being realy clever would emerge next film.

- The editting. Though it made some of the fights more brutal (whilst removing the actual brutality to get a lower rating), you lost a lot as well.

Stuff I liked:

- Pretty much all the rest of it, but Bale's portrayal of Batman, Caine's Alfred, Rachel Dawes - as underwritten as Mary Jane, but still good, the Scarecrow, the sword fight on the ice, the Arkham Asylum Bat.

Stuff I loved:

- That shot of Batman on the roof.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 7:43 AM

TOMANTA

I'm a huge fan of the 1989 Batman, but this one tops it in many ways.

My main complaint was the fight direction/editing. I like to be able to SEE what is happening in fights rather than a bunch of quick flashes and sounds.

And I agree about Bats on the roof, that was such a great shot.

I loved Ra's Al Ghul and the Scarecrow; great characterization on both of them. And you know Ra's somehow escaped from the train...

I liked Zasz's cameo.

I liked seeing Batman hang the detective from the rooftop.

The ONE thing I wished had been included was Batman jumping off the statue-of-liberty type building in town like he does after the "broken bat" storyline and, I believe, in Year One [though it's been a long time since I've read it].

"Strange women lying in ponds distributing swords is no basis for a system of government."

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 10:29 AM

JADEHAND

I saw it last night, Very good. I liked it a lot. I love that the city looked like a city, I liked the original movie version of Gotham too, but this just made it more real. Loved Morgan Freeman.
Yeah Fight scene editing was crap. Pull back and let us watch a fight. a series of half second impact shots is not a fight scene.
Gary Oldman as a good character, What's the world coming to? Must have removed the bit in his contract that requires he be referred to as "a monster" in every film. (Dracula, Fifth Element, Airforce One, etc)
Hope they keep the cast and franchise going in this direction, Much as I loved

Select to view spoiler:

..Nichalson's Joker.

I'd love to see what they do with it here.

Visit WWW.Marillion.Com for a better way to live

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:08 AM

HKCAVALIER

Yes, my favorite super hero movie. Easily (Although Batman Returns had a lot to say about the wound which hero and villain share and the personal cost of it all). I loved the sense of epic that we haven't seen since the original Superman. The movie had an almost biographical feel to it, like we were seeing a movie about an actual historical person like Napoleon or something.

As far as a "lack of a theme," are we talking about music here? Because, I found the movie's discussion of justice remarkably complex and even timely.

All other super hero movies are full of exciting set pieces strung together more or less awkwardly, but everything in this movie seemed to grow organically out of the situation. I found myself watching the villians for some time before registering, "Oh, that's the Scarecrow, etc." The diabolical plot which emerges is disturbingly realistic and grounded in the world and the characters.

Select to view spoiler:

I loved seeing Bruce Wayne in his "Travis Bickle" stage, waiting to assassinate Chill at the court house. Very important to see the real world depths of his darkness before we see how fate moves him to put on the bat suit.

A lot of people have complained about Miss Holmes' involvement, seeing her subplot as an unnecessary "love interest" type o' thing. But to me she was a crucial link to Bruce before his parents were killed. To me her life had gone where Bruce's might have, if his parents had lived out their lives to a natural end. Her final scene of "no, actually I'm not the love interest in this picture" was surprisingly adult and moving to me. Kinda like Inara in those moments when she realized that Mal's a dangerous crazy man and she really shouldn't have anything to do with the guy.

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 11:19 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by HKCavalier:
As far as a "lack of a theme," are we talking about music here? Because, I found the movie's discussion of justice remarkably complex and even timely.

Yep - something like Elfman's theme - 'cept I'm kind of sick of it having had him score pretty much every hero movie going in recent years.

Quote:
Her final scene of "no, actually I'm not the love interest in this picture" was surprisingly adult and moving to me.

I'll take the blame for removing the spoiler - after all, the whole thread's labelled as such

Yeah - I saw it as a reversal of the Peter/MJ moment at the end of Spiderman, where Peter makes the decision that he can't tell MJ to protect her (followed by that great walk away/music crescendo), whereas here Rachel is the one making the sacrifice - allowing Bruce to be the Bat. The look on Bale's face at that point; half destroyed, half absolved, was fantastic.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 2:01 PM

OPPYH

Quote:
Originally posted by Misguided By Voices:

- Lack of a "theme" - though there seemed to be the beginnings of a theme there, which if they were being realy clever would emerge next film.

Definately agree with the lack of a theme. The score was loud and in all the right scenes, it just wasn't memorable.

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 4:57 PM

GTMAN8503

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 9:51 PM

LUCIDDREAMS

Yeah, I was disappointed with some of the action sequences, or lack thereof. But I loved the rest. The Ra's Al Ghul thing just makes so much sense when you think about it. I actually thought Katie Holmes did a decent job with what she had. But she didn't really bring anything extra to the role, while all the others did that in spades.

The casting was amazing. I can't pick a favorite. I usually can't see Morgan Freeman as anything but, well, Morgan Freeman. But in BB all I saw was Lucius Fox, if that makes any sense. All the actors completely transformed themselves into their characters. Oldman and Murphy really impressed me. The former because he was just so *normal* and the latter because he so totally wasn't.

One quick question: Did anyone catch a glimpse of Gordon's kid in the brief scene at his home? My dad said he thought it was a boy but Barbara Gordon is his only child.

EDIT: Just to add, this was definitely my favorite superhero/comic book movie. Bale's the perfect Batman and this movie was sooo much more true to the comics, in tone especially, than all the others. Burton only re-imagined his own Batman on the big screen that's just not the person I see in the comics. Nolan recreated everything that Batman is.

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Sunday, June 19, 2005 10:09 PM

FRAY101

Ok, I'm going to have to jump in and stick up for the action scenes. I actually liked the way they shot the confrontation with Falcone's men. Shooting it from Batman's POV/the quick cuts gave it that sense of chaos - what the hell is happening here? In essence it was the same as those shots of Bruce as a child being surrounded by hundreds of bats.

As for how the Bat Signal came to be - will never be able to look at that the same way again. Genius! (and OK, I know Falcone was still alive but did anyone else get a flashback to Silence of the Lambs?).

Didn't get a proper look at Gordon's children but just checked IMDB and there is a credit for Barbara Gordon.

Just a thought - if Joel Schumacher had been in charge, what would you bet that the little boy Batman & Rachel came across was called Dick Grayson...!

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Monday, June 20, 2005 1:22 AM

GROUNDED

Saw it last night. Was good, but the over-reliance on quick cut fight scenes was irritating as hell.

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Monday, June 20, 2005 2:40 AM

CONFEDERATE

According to the comics, Gordon had a son in Year One, Barbara Gordon was his niece that was later adopted by him. Of course my memory could also be wrong.

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Monday, June 20, 2005 3:42 AM

CYBERSNARK

Saw it last night. Great movie, though it reminded me of why I hate crowded theatres.

Does the "Special Hell" clause extend to the people on the other side of a cell-phone conversation?

Quote:
Originally posted by Tomanta:
And you know Ra's somehow escaped from the train...

Escaped? No, probably not. He just survived.

Broken bones, massive soft-tissue damage, third-degree burns over every inch of his body, but he survived.

Ra's is a metahuman. He's unkillable.

I especially liked how the movie resonated with the comics (and the tie-in novels I've read). I especially liked that line at the end about how Bruce Wayne is the mask. He is Batman.

I do think Alfred was mis-cast, though. All respect to Caine, but his voice is just too casual and folksy. Alfred is supposed to be prim and proper.

I think I'm in love with the new (old?) Batmobile, though. It's tough-ass but still cute, like the USS Defiant on wheels.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, June 20, 2005 3:48 AM

FRAY101

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Saw it last night. Great movie, though it reminded me of why I hate crowded theatres.

Does the "Special Hell" clause extend to the people on the other side of a cell-phone conversation?

That's why I went to a 10.30am showing - too early for the annoying people to be out and about! Have to admit there are few things in life I hate more than a packed cinema - I always get strange looks when I purchase tickets because whilst everyone else rushes to the middle of the theatre, I ask for a seat at the back and to the side - can usually end up with a whole section to myself!

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Monday, June 20, 2005 4:18 AM

LINDALE

I've gotta support those fight scenes too. I thought they were excellently done. They were much more similar to fight scenes in a horror movie- where Batman's the monster slowly picking off the others, one by one. Less is more, and this is what Nolan stuck to. By filming this way, also, we didn't see too many full shots of Batman. No matter how cool he is, he's still a guy in a bat costume, and after a while, that's gonna start to look silly. As the movie was all about fear, this was the correct way to film action scenes- playing up the uncertainty and fear, showing the audience why the scum of Gotham is so afraid of Batman.

I loved this movie, and probably agree it's the best comic/superhero movie I've seen. Each of the actors did a great job, bringing nice personal touches to the characters. And, lol, it was nice to see the female lead get one hint about the superhero's alterego is and actually guess it correctly *cough*MJ*cough*. And though the lack of an easily identifiable musical theme is one of the most repeated critiques I've heard about BB, I prefered this style of orchestration and composition. The whole point of Batman Begins was to make Batman more real, to make, as someone mentioned earlier, more of a biopic than a comic book movie. One way this was done was making Gotham look realistic. Another way this was done was with the music. No larger than life dramatic swells of strings, no "oh, this part's gonna be awesome, here comes the theme", but instead much more subdued and subtle phrasing. Though it may have been nice to hear, for example, the theme from BtAS (Batman: the Animated Series) over the credits, it wouldn't have fit with the rest of the movie's music or tone.

All in all, an excellent film. And here's hoping they get everyone back for a few more (most especially David Goyer and Christopher Nolan).

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Monday, June 20, 2005 10:56 AM

LUCIDDREAMS

Quote:
Originally posted by Confederate:
According to the comics, Gordon had a son in Year One, Barbara Gordon was his niece that was later adopted by him. Of course my memory could also be wrong.

Oooh, you're prolly right. My DC comic knowledge can get sketchy and I occasionally get the cartoon mixed up with the comics. I remember two versions of Batgirl's history: one with her as Gordon's niece that he adopted and the other with her as the daughter. Either way, he sees her as a daughter, which I've always loved.

On the fights: I actually liked the first appearance of Batman in the movie. The quick cuts really showed how he did become something to fear. But after a while the excessive cutting just killed the fight scenes.

Comments: The Bat signal was a brilliant idea. And I'm sure they can bring Ra's back to life. That is his thing. His daughter also would make for a good love interest. I also liked the Bruce Wayne mask thing. After Kill Bill v2 I had a huge debate with my friends about Batman is just like Superman in that his civilian identity is his mask. Cybersnark's right about Caine's accent, but as an actor he was just such a likeable Alfred.

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Monday, June 20, 2005 11:31 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by luciddreams:
Cybersnark's right about Caine's accent, but as an actor he was just such a likeable Alfred.

I actually really liked Caine's Alfred as a whole - guess I'm not overly wed to the DC continuity though. I seem to recall (in one of those timelines no doubt ret-conned out of existence in this or that Crisis) that there is something of a dark background to him at some point, and with Caine you can believe that.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Monday, June 20, 2005 1:02 PM

CYBERSNARK

Kinda a dark side, and an impressive resumé. He's been British Special Forces, and a classically-trained actor. In fact, he returned to the stage for a while after leaving Wayne's employ in KnightQuest (a "death of Batman" storyline a few years ago --Alfred left 'cause of personality clash with the replacement Batfreak), before Nightwing (Dick Grayson) went and brought him back.

And LucidDreams, I've determined that Batman & Superman are polar opposites in the costume/real identity issue. Batman is the "dominant" personality that wears "Bruce Wayne" as a mask, but Clark Kent is the real person who wears the "Superman" identity. Put another way, Batman could give up being Wayne, but Superman can't give up being Clark (if he does, he becomes the Eradicator). It's kinda why their friendship is such an interesting thing to watch.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, June 20, 2005 2:02 PM

HJERMSTED

I LOVED Batman Begins. I would eagerly have sat through the sequel had they cued it up right away. So happy that they finally got Batman right on film.

http://archives.seattletimes.nwsource.com/cgi-bin/texis.cgi/web/vortex
/display?slug=batman19&date=20050619&query=Batman

(registration required. if the link doesn't work, run an archive search on "Why do we love Batman?" dated Sunday, June 19, 2005)

I checked out Batman and Robin: The Complete 1949 Serial from the library. Horrible! I watched it the same weekend I watched Batman Begins just to see how far the characterization of Batman has come. The distance and difference are both startling. But when I remind myself that 2009 will mark the 70th anniversary of Bob Kane's creation of Batman... I guess I shouldn't be surprised by the character's different depictions throughout the decades.

mattro

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Tuesday, June 21, 2005 1:18 AM

FRAY101

This from IMDB:

Quote:
Holmes Dropped from 'Batman' Sequel

Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman have signed to star in a second Batman movie, but love interest Katie Holmes has been dropped. Movie bosses are thrilled with the response to Batman Begins - it took $46.9 million in its first weekend at the US box office - and have snapped up the film's stars for a sequel. Bale as Batman was the first to put pen to paper, followed by Caine as butler Alfred and Freeman as Bruce Wayne's business associate Lucius Fox. But Holmes won't reprise her role as district attorney Rachel Dawes - reportedly because Warner Bros is angry her engagement to Tom Cruise has stolen media attention away from the movie. A source tells Pagesix.Com, "Everyone is in agreement that the movie's strength is with Christian Bale, Michael Caine and Morgan Freeman." Adding of Holmes, "She won't be in the sequel... the next romantic interest will be a much stronger actress. Warner is happy that people are now focusing on who'll be playing the Joker rather than Katie and Tom."

Whilst I had no qualms with Katie's character, can't say this bothers me one way or the other. But I'm a little tired of going down the "will the new love interest guess the secret identity" route. From the recent films, Elle McPhearson's character (such as it was) is the only one who didn't catch on to that little secret!

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Tuesday, June 21, 2005 3:27 AM

CYBERSNARK

At this point I'm getting a little tired of the "token love interest" in each movie. It just starts to scream "trite and artificial."

I mean, really, "Bruce Wayne" is not the kinda guy to go for any sort of human relationship, and part of what attracted Bale to this one was that it's the first time we've had a really "accurate" Batman on screen.

I'm all in favour of a Catwoman arc that stretches across several movies, though. Just give it a good chunk of time, instead of being squeezed into a handful of acts.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, June 21, 2005 10:49 PM

LUCIDDREAMS

Quote:
Originally posted by fray101:
This from IMDB:

Quote:
But Holmes won't reprise her role as district attorney Rachel Dawes - reportedly because Warner Bros is angry her engagement to Tom Cruise has stolen media attention away from the movie... Adding of Holmes, "She won't be in the sequel... the next romantic interest will be a much stronger actress. Warner is happy that people are now focusing on who'll be playing the Joker rather than Katie and Tom."

Wow. Tacky. Why don't they just start calling her names? If this is how the studio is making casting decisions, I'm going to start worrying about the sequel. It should be all about the story, not publicity. Considering the fact that she barely looks a day over 21, Holmes didn't do a horrible job with her role.

I'd love Catwoman in the two sequels but I can't picture the studio allowing a Batman love interest to last two movies. Also, if Gary Oldman doesn't come back I'm seriously going to cry.

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