Dark Angel - Schmaltz or smarts?? by Zoot

the phrase "spot on"? Yes very english I'll-have-my-tea-now ...

Yes already ordered one of the books to try out on Amazon - hardly ever go into yer actual "shops" anymore anyhoo ....

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 7:15 AM

I'm probably gonna order the first two just to have that little extra DA in my posession.
Last two eps tonight, eh? Freak Nation isn't 45 minutes like the rest of the shows, it comes in at 61 minutes (give or take a couple for the scan speed change from region to region). Cameron couldn't resist shooting too much, and they kept it all in. Lucky us!

Okay, what's Alec's # Chrisisall

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Wednesday, June 29, 2005 10:27 PM

Omigosh! Just watched Freak Nation …. How could they leave it like that???? So many loose ends! What happens to them all?? What happens to White?? Will Max ever bloody tell Logan that she’s not with Alec and that she loves him??

(although if Alec is free …. Just offering) …..

I loved the episode but can see why people didn’t feel it was a sufficient finale – but I guess if they were planning a 3rd season they thought they didn’t have to worry ….

Where were they planning to take it in the 3rd season anyhow?

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:05 AM

Glad you liked Freak Nation, I watched it last night as well. That scene where Logan is reading the runes on Max's back always gets me. So close, it hurts. Logan knows that she dosen't love Alec, she doesn't have to tell him at this point. Emotionally, for me, it's an ending. They love eachother, they know it, and they'll be together. I like the way he's holding her hand at the end.

Presumably, the third season would concern itself with White fighting his way back into the Conclave, and trying to kill Max. Terminal City would become a real home base for the 'genetically empowered', and at some point they prove themselves helping out the Normals and gain acceptance, of a kind.
The comet that passes Earth every million years or whatever killing most life on the planet shows up, just like the Cult forsees, and being bred to be resistant to it's effects, they welcome it, knowing it will kill off most Normals and leave the world in their hands.
Max, Logan, some scientists, and the brightest from Terminal City figure out how to splice Max's genetic protection (that Sandeman specifically designed) onto a cold virus and design a delivery system to spread the virus around the world, thus giving humanity at large a bad cold, but saving them from the comet in the process.
Of course White would die trying to stop the launch of the cold virus, screaming and moaning like the bitch he is.
And another of the comet's effects is killing off exotic designer-type virus', allowing Max and Logan to finally hit it (that's my own theory as to how they were gonna take care of the virus Max was carrying- seems possible to me).

So that's it. The Max Collins books take it to a somewhat different conclusion. They're good, and definitly provide a sense of closure, so I give them a qualified recommendation for that purpose.

Look what you've done Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 4:48 AM

Have any of you guys ever seen the Angel finale - the last one ever (season 5)?
Because to me it seems remarkably similar to DA's ending. You just don't know what's going to happen. It seems likely they'll all die (why can't the government just drop a bomb on Terminal City anyway?) and it's just one of those huge cliffhanger endings, and Joss knew that Angel was most likely not coming back for another series. Has anyone else noticed this?

...and we will call it...this land...

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fantasticlaughingfairy:
(why can't the government just drop a bomb on Terminal City anyway?)

That would be like dropping a bomb on a present-day prison, sure some would go along with it, but public outrage at the inhumanity of it would be politically disasterous for whatever government agency or administration that gave the order.

Haven't seen Angel's finale, but read about it. Seems similar except in Angel there is a very real possibility that they'll be dead in the next twenty minutes (although probably not), And with Dark Angel thing are more stable; they've quieted down to a simmer.

Suffering from Angel deficit syndrome Chrisisall

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 5:59 AM

Quote:
That scene where Logan is reading the runes on Max's back always gets me. So close, it hurts. Logan knows that she dosen't love Alec, she doesn't have to tell him at this point.

Good point! OK! Feel much better now he knows that she knows that he knows etc. etc. And frankly I too loved that scene -

am now rewatching all the good episodes ...

I agree with your delineation in the main, by the way, although I'd put "Borrowed Time" on the no reservations "good episode" list - if only for the conversation between Alec and Max in the closet which I watched 3 times last night alone - and of course for the general Max/ Logan angst ...

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Thursday, June 30, 2005 6:20 AM

Okay Zoot, I'm easy. I changed two of 'em over to 'good', left the two sometimes-silly ones in 'acceptable'.
But, is this an alternate reality (re: Borrowed Time)? I thought they finished the Star Wars films...

Smart Alec Chrisisall

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Saturday, July 2, 2005 6:25 AM

Zoot, you've had a few days after seein' Freak Nation, how do you rate the series as a whole?
From an overview, do you feel they told a pretty good tale?
I feel that we saw a frightened and alone young woman grow up some, gain confidence in herself, and, in the end, even allow friendship and love in the door.
Not bad, for a couple of seasons, huh?

452

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Sunday, July 3, 2005 10:31 PM

Hmm! Well ….

Ok … let me order my thoughts …. Oh yes ….

I LOVED IT TO GORRAM BITS!!!

I agree with you that the two series develop nicely … while I was watching the 2nd series, I sorta hankered for the first, when it was just simple “run from Lydecker, get it on with Logan” stuff … but now am re-watching the first series and find myself longing for a less than holy, less righteous and let’s face it bloody funny comment from Alec to break it all up a bit – think Alec was the best bit about series 2 – great character and just what the show needed ….

I may not watch it as many times as Firefly, but am likely to watch it a whole lot more than Buffy and that’s saying something ….

Re-watching the first series, I think I’m enjoying it more for the following reasons:

· I appreciate the Jam Pony gang a lot LOT more – especially Normal – think he’s fab!! And, of course, Original Cindy …
· Have been appreciating the fight scenes and what I assume is some computer wizardry more – especially like the fight scenes and Max and Zack’s cool walk to the car in “Cold Comfort” …

Have been thinking in my own perverted way more about when Jessica and Michael got their freak on and now can conclusively state my theory that they were together by “411 on the DL” and possibly even in C.R.E.A.M. … I know you reckon its later but the “spin round the park” scene in 411 – just the way they look at each other … well … their either very good actors or ….

Also have to say they are definitely together by Art Attack – the exchange in the last scene: “It’s a large life.”, “Yes. It is.” - looks almost out of character the way they look at each other …. Not that I’ve been thinking about this a lot or anything …

I think I appreciated the humour more the second time around and I like the over all story arcs a lot - they aren't so constrictive that they stop nice individual single episode story lines, but each episode has just a little bit to move the main plot along - especially in the first series...

I still think though that they try too hard to keep Max and Logan from kissing in the first series - all the will-they-won't-they stuff feels a little contrived by the end .... The worst one from that point of view is The Kidz are Aiight where you just cannot believe they don't kiss - although I do get it that they're both scared - as spelt out by Max at the end of Rising ....

Bizarrely, I didn't think the second series -even with its huge virus maguffin - was half as bad in terms of the Max Logan thing - it oddly, I know, just felt more believable ....

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Monday, July 4, 2005 3:31 AM

One of my favourite lines from the first series:
"In this short, brutal life you've got to take every opportunity to celebrate..."
You're right, the will-they, won't-they in the first doesn't provoke any real emotion, like the second does. But the first had these tight little intimate stories like 'Haven'.
In my list of good shows I leave out the eps with heavy snakeage 'cause I can't figure out how snakes fit into a breeding a superior race of people.
Any feelings pro or con about the White's son story (two shows I also left off my list)?
Also: watched 'Borrowed Time' last night, it was Star Wars 7 that they stole from Fox, LOL, I didn't notice before!!

What a dope Chrisisall

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Monday, July 4, 2005 3:59 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Also: watched 'Borrowed Time' last night, it was Star Wars 7 that they stole from Fox, LOL, I didn't notice before!!

What a dope Chrisisall

ha ha!! Can't believe you missed that - I remember laughing quite a lot the first time - that was the one episode where I did actually laugh out loud more than once - laughed at the Alec comment in the cupboard about how he can't believe he's stuck there just so Max can have a sex life and then can't believe she's doing this for something which she doesn't know is any good! Also always laugh at the "why consummate two years of unbridled passion, when you can have pasta" line - ah Alec!!

But on re-watching season 1, Logan is a lot funnier than I remember - lines like:

"SUNG: What did you find out last night at the airstrip?

LOGAN: When some girls don't eat dinner they get real cranky."

As for the White's son story - I sort of didn't mind it but didn't think it was inspired - it does progress the story arc but it never really goes anywhere - wondered whether they had further plans for it in season 3 - same goes for the Zack storyline ... can't really believe they just set him up with a new identity and that's that ...

I also agree with you about the snake thing ... Although I have a feeling it was just a reference to ancient culture that they then got carried away with ... If you look at early Greek statues, especially Minoan (Crete), you often get the bare breasted goddess with two writhing snakes – I thought of that image immediately when I first saw the snake ritual at the school – the priestess’ gold costume was very reminiscent … Think they were trying to suggest at great antiquity for the cult – snakes being connected with ancient female earth rituals and the cult of the Eleusinian Mysteries … but now I’m getting carried away!!
http://witcombe.sbc.edu/snakegoddess/snakesegypt.html

Suffice it to say, I think this was a good image to use because snakes were connected with birth and women’s mysteries, Egypt and the darker side of Dionysus ….

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Monday, July 4, 2005 1:07 PM

The only thing I had a REAL issue with was in 'Exposed', when Max was gettin' beat on by the kid with the telekinetic ability, I didn't see how any amount of genetic manipulation not done in a laboratory could result in a 'power' like that. If it was at all possible, wouldn't Sandeman have given an ability like that to Max?
And the first time I heard 'Star Wars 7', I thought she was referring to what we now know as 'Revenge of the Sith', I'm so bad at numbers, it's inconcievable! That would be 3, with 'Jedi' being 6. So funny, though.
Here's another observation: Logan was the name of the main character in the movie 'Logan's Run', in which he was a 'Sandman'(!). Coincidence? I think not. Fans always work their favourite stuff in somewhere.
Happy fourth! (OOPs, wrong side of the pond for that, huh?)
"From this day foward, Independence Day will no longer be thought of as an American holiday!"
I love that line from the movie.

Chrisisall, who resembles Alec (in his dreams...)

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 2:44 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The only thing I had a REAL issue with was in 'Exposed', when Max was gettin' beat on by the kid with the telekinetic ability, I didn't see how any amount of genetic manipulation not done in a laboratory could result in a 'power' like that.

Chrisisall, who resembles Alec (in his dreams...)

I agree - I have always had a problem with the breeding cult managing to breed such powerful people without the aid of a lab anyhow ... Funnily enough I had a similar problem with Mia in Fugggedaboutit - couldn't see how messing wiht someone's genes coudl make them a mind reader/ manipulator ... but then I like her line to Sketchy:
"Gosh, imagine what would be involved. Manipulating brain wave patterns, interfering with short-term memory formation...just seems a little hard to believe."
Which I reckon is the writer doing a little special pleading and aknowledging Mia's skill is kinda hard to stomach ....

4th of July scares me somewhat 'cos - with our colonial past - we're not too crazy about nationalistic holidays here in the UK - but have a good one!!

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 3:08 AM

CYBERSNARK

I didn't have much of a problem with those powers, given that (if you're inclined to believe [or just not disbelieve] it) they've been demonstrated in weaker forms by otherwise normal humans for centuries.

'Sides, the US military's interest in psychic "remote viewing" is a matter of record. Makes sense that they'd look into refining the "technology."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 3:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
I didn't have much of a problem with those powers, given that (if you're inclined to believe [or just not disbelieve] it) they've been demonstrated in weaker forms by otherwise normal humans for centuries.

'Sides, the US military's interest in psychic "remote viewing" is a matter of record. Makes sense that they'd look into refining the "technology."

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

Oh I suppose you're right - Mr-Rational-Argument but I still found it one of the less believable episodes...

Also would have liked to know the reason for breeding some of the transgenics like Mole, Dix and Luke cos it seemed to me that they were falling into the traditional trap reserved for Star Treck aliens where their only distinctive feature is the bumpy skin ... would have liked to see more freakish abilities as well as freakish looks ...

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 4:01 AM

One last point I would make is this - and never let it be said that Zoot does not own up to her mistakes - look at the long way I’ve come since my initial post on this subject all those, oh, 15 days ago or so ...

Then I was all like “urgh! Dark Angel, not as good as Buffy, no humour, too many maguffins, too much sexual tension blah blah blah…” and now I’m all over DA like a bad case of the clap ….

A singularly impressive turnaround I’m sure you’ll agree!!

And I certainly think Mr Chrisisall deserves a bit of the credit – since I’d never have watched it if he hadn’t gone on about it so damn much it ain’t funny!! So congrats, you’ve turned me!!

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 4:32 AM

Glad to be of service.
I've turned around a little myself. My initial list of good 2nd season shows was like, 6 or 7 episodes long. Now I've come to really love most of the season!
When you get the books, let me know what you think.

This is where we wanna be, in the light Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 4:38 AM

Manipulatin' thoughts is one thing, but punching someone with some kind of mental 'force'? Why, you'd have to be loaded with meta-clorieans or sumpin' to do that....

Yeah, yeah, well I can't spell what I think is stupid, anyway Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 4:48 AM

I'm half way through Skin Game at the moment actually and am liking it - a bit annoyed by the replay of most of season two from Kelpy's pov but otherwise am liking it - bought the final one second hand on amazon and am expecting it any time now ... Nice to have a further connection with a show I really loved and to see an ending of sorts ....

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 4:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Manipulatin' thoughts is one thing, but punching someone with some kind of mental 'force'? Why, you'd have to be loaded with meta-clorieans or sumpin' to do that....

Yeah, yeah, well I can't spell what I think is stupid, anyway Chrisisall

Yeah and gotta say Star Wars in general bites the big one in terms of believability and continuity!!!

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 5:14 AM

Regarding Star Wars: I'll paraphrase a line from Highlander...
'There can be only three!'
...and I don't mean from this century.

Connor Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 5:30 AM

The Zack thing kind of got me thinking - when the whole manticore mutant thing got out - wouldn't Zack notice his bar-code and get thinking etc. which (judging on what he's been like) should have him heading towards terminal city - I mean he arranged the escape to 'the outside world' they knew nothing about - surely he'd be curious enough to head towards terminal city? Or at least would have got suspicious enough to appear in another episode etc. or got a few memories back or something. I don't think they'd have been able to lie to him forever especially when it all came out.
Just what I think/was wonderin anyway.

...and we will call it...this land...

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 5:35 AM

Hey, has anyone seen this book - it's a massive rip-off of Dasrk Angel!
There's some kids involved in genetic experiments where they mix their DNA with animals.
The leader -MAX breaks them out. (and she kicks ass)
They run away when the people come after them (with some more genetic mutants dog-people or something).
Sounmd familiar or anything? sheesh!

The only difference is that they have wings.

...and we will call it...this land...

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 8:28 AM

I hadn't thought of Zack's response...he sure would be suspicious of his barcode! It's not like he could never notice it, or not have a remark shot at him about it from a curious stranger.
I could see a whole arc about his 'repatriation' into the 'genetically empowered' world being written!
If I ever write my OWN Dark Angel novel, I'd be sure to include that!!!
Good thinkin'.

FLF kicks ass, says so on my tee-shirt Chrisisall

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Tuesday, July 5, 2005 10:35 PM

Totally agree re the Zack thing - if I was them I'd a had it planned for season 3 - creates a nice bit of peril for Logan - a random X5 trying to kill him and Max torn between her brother and her lover - say a small 3 episode mid-series arc woulda been nice ....

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Saturday, July 9, 2005 8:15 AM

Do either of you know what the books are called or where I can get them? I feel like I need some kind of closure.
Season 3 would've ROCKED!

Kick-ass FLF.

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Sunday, July 10, 2005 10:15 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by fantasticlaughingfairy:
Do either of you know what the books are called or where I can get them? I feel like I need some kind of closure.
Season 3 would've ROCKED!

Kick-ass FLF.

Yes - you can get them all on Amazon ....

The author is called Max Allan Collins and the books, well the two I've read, are called Skin Game (set directly after the close of season 2) and After the Dark (following on from Skin Game with a conclusion - apparently - I haven't finished it yet) ....

There is also a first one (set during the first season) called, I think, Before the Dawn ....

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Wednesday, July 13, 2005 5:48 AM

Thanks Zoot - I'll check it out!

...and we will call it...this land...

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Sunday, July 31, 2005 9:34 PM

BECKYLAST

Hey just wanna say, myself being a huge Buffy and Angel fan, logan and max are nothing like Buffy and Angel. at least buffy and angel got it on and didnt have a mysterious virus so they couldnt touch eacher other. I like Dark Angel, i havnt finished the 2nd season yet but nearly, but at least buffy had other relationships such as Riley and Spike. I wish Max could of moved on, preferably Alec since he is really hot and logan is a bit of a sissy. I was dissapointed when i first started watching the second season, i think its better then the first season though, that would just get to together already and then they didnt, then there was hope when Alec came along but i guess not. he's so hot. thatnx for your time

from bek

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 3:42 AM

That's a fair point there I suppose, but to be honest, I never really saw anything happening with Max and Alec (although I agree he is GORGEOUS). And I really think you should check out Freak Nation, as Logan really comes into his own (ie. is less of a sissy).
I have to disagree with you though on the S1/S2 front. I love S1, and although S2 does have some amazing eps (Berrisford Agenda, Freak Nation etc.) there are just too many OTT transgenics running about.

And of course we'll give you our time we Browncoats/ DA fans are lovely people!

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Thursday, August 4, 2005 4:03 AM

BECKYLAST

I know nothing could happen between max and alec - since he kinda looks exactly like her X5 brother - but i just wish- yeah a lot of people do like season one more but i just think season 2 is more interesting story line, plus the White is a hot hottie, while lydecker is kinda dud in the look deparment

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 10:16 AM

YANKSNO1

Late to this thread, but here are my thoughts on Dark Angel. First, the 1st season was fantastic. I rate it with a 9/10. Not one bad ep in there. I just found it to be great story writing with some real good action in it, interesting characters and Lydecker to be a great & complex villian. Plus, anything Jessica Alba's in is certainly worth watching, especially when she's kicking butt. I really dug James Cameron's vision in this season and thought the show had real potential to be a great show.

Season 2 had it's bright spots, but overall was a major step down for the series. Overall, it just went way too X-Filesish for my taste (while I'm a big X-Files fan). Too many FOW eps and most of them besides Alec and Joshua were pretty bad. The season had a couple decent eps in the beginning, but really trailed off in the middle. The last 4 or 5 eps as I remember managed to pull it's self together and ended decent. I thought it deserved a 3rd season after the way it ended, but unfortunetly the bad eps in the middle doomed the show. I rate it about a 6 to a 7,not quite sure where it stands in that range.

I really wish James Cameron would resurrect this franchise with Jessica Alba and do a movie and have some closure to the series (quite like Firefly and Serenity). With her star power, plus James Cameron would I think no doubt be a smash hit. It seems in some recent interviews she really enjoyed doing the series and playing Max, so I'd think she'd be up for it if he was doing the movie. One can dream, can't they?

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Thursday, August 18, 2005 1:10 PM