Harry Potter and the HBP (Spoilers) by airylli

I'm still with-holding judgement, letting it all sink in. But I do have this theory, and I'm curious to see if anyone out there agrees, or if I'm just a bit delusional:

Snape is actually a good guy.

Look, I know that he did something pretty majorly bad, but there are a few things that just make me wonder that this was all part of a plan of Dumbledore's, namely:

- Snape and Dumbledore are overheard arguing about something that Snape doesn't want to do (ie. what he ends up doing).
- Dumbledore's reaction to Snape turning is "Severus, please", not "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" or anything along the same vein as what he was saying to the other Death-eaters. He could equally be asking Snape to do what they'd agreed to (ie. what he did).
- Dumbledore finally lets Snape have the DADA job, despite knowing that whoever holds that position won't stay longer than a year, suggesting he knows something major was going to happen involving Snape.
- As Snape is running away after doing what he did, his 'taunts' to Harry are actually some pretty damn good advice about what he should be working on as far as magic.
- This one's pretty sketchy, but there's also Snape's hand shaking as he makes the Unbreakable Vow.

Okay, I'll admit I'm still a little lost as to the big grand scheme this is supposed to serve. Yeah, maybe I'm just delusional.

Anyone else hold back on the tears until we hear of Dumbledore peacefully napping in his portrait?

"She was all naked and ... articulate."

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 9:14 PM

those were some of the same theories i had. i'm mostly chalking it up to denial, but i just can't see snape as a total bad guy. maybe it's the dumbledore in me.

and i do want to know how those portraits work.

i've heard a theory that dumbledore himself is a horcrux, and that is why snape killed him. i don't see how this would quite work, but it's an interesting theory.

----
I swallowed a bug.

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 10:43 PM

Nice! Not delusional or folie-a-deux at the very least! Dumbledore as a horcrux? Interesting...but.
Curious about the portraits, too. Not quite so sad if an essence of Dumbledore remains. How useful could the portrait be as far as information and advice?

Other random thoughts on no. 6:

- relationshippy stuff kind of thrown together and basically annoying. While the pairings were expected and not unwelcome, really hated how they came about.
- Harry sacrificing his relationship with Ginny to keep her safe: trite and kind of sexist. I know he doesn't tell Hermione to rack off, but she's kind of become one of the lads.
- the end really hammered home how much luck and Dumbledore have had to do with Harry's victories over Voldemort thus far. Will be interesting to see how the final confrontation is portrayed - does Harry all of a sudden gain some serious magical skills, or is it once again solely down to luck and the power of love?
- tracking down the remaining horcruxes and defeating Voldemort are a lot to fit in to one final novel, especially if just finding/ destroying the one horcrux was enough to ruin Dumbledore's arm.
- is Harry really never going back to Hogwarts? Very sad. Will miss Quidditch.
- will also miss Fawkes. Favourite character by far.

She was all naked, and ... articulate.

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Saturday, July 16, 2005 11:34 PM

I'm holding on to the theory that Snape is, well OK, if not good then ultimately on Harry's side. Maybe Dumbledore (stifles a sob) knew he was already dying (he could certainly have communicated this to Snape), by making it seem that Snape had actually killed him then he could continue working undercover.

Also, perhaps he was trying to prevent Draco from doing something which would send him down the dark side for good (let's face it, Draco is a nasty little bully and like all bullies, a coward. But is he truly evil?).

Overall I thought it was a marked improvement on the last novel - although have to admit I kept thinking "this is going to be a nasty film!". However it struck me last night how disappointing it was that Ron & Hermione were so busy sulking or snogging that they made no contributions whatsoever to the main plot - where was the teamwork that helped them so much in the past?

Not sure about the Harry/Ginny thing either - guess I still just think of her as that little girl in Chamber of Secrets! I suppose she is only one year younger than Harry but somehow it didn't seem right to me.

Surely Harry will go back to Hogwarts - the whole point of there being 7 books is that there are 7 terms. I'm sure he'll go back - please!

I just wish I'd reread Book 5 first as I'd forgotten so many details - guess I'll go read it now!

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:21 AM

Fray, as always I am with you (except the bit about Book 5 - it is my 2nd fave).

- Snape is definitely a good guy as is Malfoy (I like the earlier summary by Amygdala thread about the Snape plotline)
- What happened to all of the other characters? Hagrid, Grawp, Luna, Neville, the Order? Are they to disappear in obscurity - they did in this book?
- Where was the plot?

All in all I am very disappointed, there was far too much relationship stuff and not enough action.

Book 7 better resolve all of the little threads she has built - the next book must be vast to fit everything in.

PS I started sobbing when Hagrid didn't believe Harry and pretty much didn't stop until the last 3 or 4 pages.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:30 AM

Have just gone back and read Amygdala's post properly - jeez, had totally forgotten about the argument between Snape and Dumbledore. Excellent point - actually all excellent points.

Actually ventured onto a Harry Potter forum last night to check out people's reactions - most seem to agree that Dumbledore could not have been mistaken about Snape.

Also, that RAB is Regalus Black. Any other theories there? (none from me I have to confess! Just hope it is an existing character and not a totally new one for Book 7. There are already too many characters to keep track of!).

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:37 AM

I kind of liked the relationship stuff. Well, to clarify, I loved both Remus.Tonks and Ginny.Harry; to both, I said "FINALLY!". :P And the bit about Madam Pince and Filch was quite amusing. The bit about Ron and Hermione being non-essential also struck a chord with me, though. This book was just...different from the other ones. And not just darker or tenser or generally more upsetting. I feel like something changed, or possibly it lacked something. Anyway, here is part of an email I wrote just after finishing the book:

"OW.

OW OW OW OW OW.

I totally knew he was the HBP. I mean honestly, Harry is just so thick sometimes.

Did you see R.A.B. and think "Regulus"? Because I know I did. Interesting idea someone had thought: the "A" could be "and", as it is a lot easier to get the locket with two people.

Somewhere in there, I was thinking, "Ms. Rowling, you've been reading fanfic." And that's not about the relationships; about just some of the general plot things. But I'm pretty sure I think the book was brilliant. I just have to get over the trauma first...

Harry and Ginny: FINALLY. Same for Remus and Tonks. Every mention of Sirius made me really upset, as did every single thing from the second Harry talked to Trelawney and found out it was Snape that overheard the prophecy.

Ron's stupid. So's Hermione. Scrimgeour's a prat. So's Percy. For some reason, the thought that Harry was one of the Horcruxes popped into my head, but I'm pretty sure that's the exhaustion talking. There were some definite shoutouts in there, I just can't remember them right now. I'm pretty sure there was a reference to the Azkaban movie, as well.

Snape, Snape, Snape...I'm still not convinced he's wholly evil. I don't know why. But still...OW. I can't believe that happened. Although it's been a rumor ever since those pesky bets placed in Britain...

I cannot believe Umbridge is still alive.

I want more of Gred and Forge. And more Charlie. Bill was interesting until he got engaged to Fleur. I like their engagement, but...well, we'll see. Line that cracked me up: "I am good-looking enough for the two of us, I think."

The Vane girl was stupid, silly, and a delightful waste of my time. I hope she chokes on her potions.

I was halfway through the second chapter when I pronounced suddenly, to the great amusement of my cousin, "This is not going to be a happy book." I hate that I was right. Or maybe I don't.

I'm pretty sure one of the characters, can't remember who; maybe a memory, death, or a portrait, but the last name was "Smith" and I immediately linked him/her to the prat Zacharias. Also, the sallow-faced, oily haired portrait towards the end definitely seemed to be linked the Snape.

I've heard Tobias Snape before. I feel like I'd heard Scrimgeour's name too, but I could be hallucinating.

I knew Malfoy didn't have the balls. Stupid Death Eaters. May they all be eaten alive by maggots and fire ants.

Amelia Bones! Man...

Fawkes! Now I'm REALLY upset...

I saw this book as playing a similar function as "Becoming Part I"; major set-up for what's to come. That's not to say that enough didn't happen...

Double negatives make me dizzy. I hate J.K. Rowling. And I want to give her a hug. Evil, brilliant woman.

My incoherence isn't my fault. I place all blame on the Prince."

There's just something about this book that I can't figure out. It just didn't..grip me like the previous books. Well, a lot of parts did, but as a whole, I just found it more difficult to read. I think parts of Phoenix were even easier than this; HBP didn't have parts like Fred and George flying off from Hogwarts to balance some things out. I almost felt as if I'd entered fanfic land, especially with year 7 potentially not being at Hogwarts. But again, I think that may be because all of this is setup for book 7. And Rowling definitely has a thing with hands...too much Star Wars, methinks.

I had more thoughts, but I can't remember them.

Hey, that was long. Shutting up now...

----
I swallowed a bug.

www.cafepress.com/airylli

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 12:47 AM

Yep, that pretty much sums it up.

My blog has a review/gripe of the book but here are a few extra bits just as side-thoughts.

It was very strange but I kept expecting Dumbledore to be somebody else taking polyjuice - he just didn't read like Dumbledore. I also got the impression that this book was only about Harry and none of the other characters mattered (except who they were snogging). Plus, JK disappointed me because she announced beforehand that it would answer a lot of questions - but for me, it didn't. Even the Horcruxes were easy to guess.

All in all it was just wrong and I hope the last book is written properly and is back to normal. I was so excited about the book and now I just feel a bit let down.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:01 AM

OK gang, let's cheer ourselves up by remembering this:

Fang is OK!

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by fray101:
OK gang, let's cheer ourselves up by remembering this:

Fang is OK!

Ahahah right on.

I think it did answer some questions, but..I don't know. Something wasn't so fulfilling.

I thought the same thing about Dumbledore in the beginning; I was like Harry! Ask him a question! But then there were glasses rapping on heads (brilliant, by the way) and raspberry jam and, well...I don't know.

Slinking back to wallow in the pleasant banks in Egypt...

----
I swallowed a bug.

www.cafepress.com/airylli

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:09 AM

Yes, on to the good bits, like favourite Dumbledore quotes, such as:

"No, I was merely reading Muggle magazines... I do love knitting patterns."

and:

"sadly, accidental rudeness occurs alarmingly often... best to say nothing at all, my dear man."

Where will book 7 be without Dumbledore quotes?

Damn, really did mean to be cheerful.

"She was all naked, and ... articulate"

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:23 AM

The conversation between Fleur and Molly when Bill has been injured - that was wonderful.

Harry growing up and realising Malfoy was not to blame for Dumbledores death was fantastic - that in itself would have been enough to make me cry.

The paragraph where Luna helps Neville as the only two members of the DA who answered the call - I am nearly crying just thinking about it, I had to put the book down for a bit at that point. (Mind you, I am also more than a little bit angry that they were ignored so much

)

When Ron and Hermione tell Harry they will go with him wherever he leads - awwwww.

The problem with the good bits they pretty much all took place in the opening and last chapters. When she is good she is very, very good...

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:48 AM

Oh the bits with Dumbledore & the Dursleys were just brilliant!

How we'll miss him, sniff...

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:37 AM

I know I can't classify this as a 'good' bit, but I think that Dumbledore's demise was actually one of the more poignant, well-written parts of the book.

Having expected/dreaded this outcome, his dignified, unafraid demeanour was the most that I could have hoped for:

"Jokes? No, no, these are manners."

In that encounter - in no way did the bad guys win.

Okay, maybe in a purely physical sense they did.

----

"She was all naked, and ... articulate"

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:43 AM

I'm not sure the bad guys won even in the physical sense. I think an Obi-Wan thing might happen

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 6:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:
I'm not sure the bad guys won even in the physical sense. I think an Obi-Wan thing might happen

extremely dimensionally transcendental

Aha - so is that what OW refers to?!

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 6:38 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by amygdala:
Snape is actually a good guy.

I think there is no question that Snape is a good guy...
I was withholding judgement throughout the last 5 books, but if JKR had ended book 6 with Snape doing something heroic for the Order of the Phoenix then I would have known he was evil...

but since book 6 ends with Snape killing Dumbledor and having to escape the OotP, I am positive he is a good guy and will be completely redeemed in Book 7...in fact I'm betting he'll be the next Head Master of Hogwarts (JMPO of course).

I think it is clear that Dumbledor was begging Snape to kill him and save Draco (who was definitely between a rock and a hard place).

At first I thought Dumbledor wasn't dead, but he and Snape had worked out a fake out...but when his portrait appeared in his office and the phoenix left...well, I'm afraid he is really gone. But his portrait will still hang, and talk, and walk to other portraits...LOL
We'll hardly know he is gone!

I love Tonks & Lupin (who I still think should be played by Clive Owen), and I'm pretty keen on Luna & Neville getting together too!

I never minded the canon ships that JKR has been hinting at for years and has finally brought together...anyone who is upset by Hermione and Ron getting together just has been reading too much fan fic. And of course Harry will end up w/Ginny, how else can we have all our friends end up in the same family? They'll have to build extra wings at the Borrows.

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 1:35 PM

Holy crap. Clive Owen as Lupin would be excellent.

----
I swallowed a bug.

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:32 PM

DEANNAMAY

I think Snape is a good guy. Either Dumbledore was willing to be killed to get Snape in good with Voldemort, or the death was faked (he has a horcrux of his own). Snape was a pain in the butt to Harry, but in the end I think he will be justified. I am not even a Snape fan, but Dumbledore trusted him, and I can't believe this wise old man made that big of a mistake. I also wasn't surprised that the HBP was Snape, I mean, he is the potions master, and I think he planted that book for Harry (or Dumbledore asked him to)

I was pleased about Harry/Ginny, Ron/Hermione and Lupin/Tonks. Even with death lives move forward. I didn't think it was sexist that Harry breaks things off with Ginny. Any fool already knows how close Hermione and Ron are to Harry, they are already in the danger zone. To Voldemort, Ginny is just an annoying Weasley at this point. Pushing anyone new in his life off as he was off to face Voldemort is a smart idea, in my book.

I will miss the classes, and I do think that everyone else will find a way to help out, whether Harry likes it or not. That is why Harry is different and more powerful than Voldemort, he has people who love him. Voldemort is eternally alone, despite having powerful servants, he trusts no one. In fact having Snape turn on him in the end may be a deciding blow.

This was a transition book, and I think a well done one. The next book is the last one, things needed to be refined, so the last book could be focused on the hunt for Voldemorts horcrux' and the final battle. Not to mention at the end have each start their new lives. Ain't no way we are going to be left wondering what everyone is going to do in the future. Or I am flying to England.

As for Percy, I also think that he will be found to be a good guy. He has been persistantly unlikable and unhelpful. He is a Weasley, and knowing that family, he is a contradiction in terms. I think he is in position for the last battle, somehow.

Anyway, we'll probably have a two year wait for our answers. I know she wanted the last book to be very long, so she could take her time saying goodbye. She said that at her website previously, and I think all the previous characters will get to do something of various importance in the book.

In the end, I think she has provided well for her audience. All books moved things forward, characters learned and grew to their own extent. I have been well pleased with her, and hope she continues in this venue in some manner once Harry's current adventures are completed.

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 2:56 PM

Thank you, DeannaMay, that was very well thought out and said most of what I had tried to say a bit ago before my computer went wonky and I lost all I had written.

The only thing I'm having trouble with is believing that Snape is good. I've never liked him, I've always gone soley on the faith that Dumbledore trusts him and I don't want Dumbledore to have made a mistake, but I just do NOT like him. I have never been truly convinced that he is working for the right side. Maybe, after I've had time to grieve and reread...but not yet.

I am very upset and cried my eyes out for the last 2 chapters. I couldn't, wouldn't believe Dumbledore was dead until I saw the body (I see it all in my head, as I'm sure you do.) And then seeing the portrait...that's when I really started sobbing. I had to put the book down.

If I had known I was going to get this emotionally involved in these books (I cried when Harry threw the fit in Dumbledore's office after Sirius died, too) I would have waited until all 7 books were out and read them in one swell foop. The waiting is torture. Book 7 has so much to answer for, so much it will have to accomplish. I trust JK Rowling, I'm just really nervous about how she's going to get us to the end.

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 3:57 PM

DEANNAMAY

Callmeserenity, couldn't agree more with you regarding Snape. He is unlikeable, and seriously needs to wash his hair (no wonder he gets no snogging :) I think what Rowling means with him is to say, you can be unlovely in every way, but still end up doing the right thing. I also like how she points out how handsome Tom Riddle was, and intimates that his evil is now written on his face. He was charming, accomplished, and evil from the get go. He is given everything (just like Harry, goes from no life, to the wizardly world), and then he goes and does every wrong thing. Snape is also the product of his upbringing. An unhappy family life, undoubtedly with dark wizard involvement. In a way, you can look at all three characters, Harry, Snape and Voldemort, see similar upbringings and see three different paths. One found friendship, one found teaching, and one just plain sought evil.

I also think that is Snape survives everything and is proven good, he still won't be liked by Harry and all, but perhaps he will find a way to let his past hates go.

Still hoping for Mr. Weasley to end up being Minister of Magic, *crosses fingers*

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 4:19 PM

SONG

What a marvelous thread. I'm so glad to read that others see Snape as still a good guy working under very deep, deep cover. Dumbledore begging Harry to fetch Snape, and when Snape finally arrives, Dumbledore saying his name in a pleading tone, convince me that Snape's killing Dumbledore was pre-arranged, as a way of avoiding whatever horrors awaited D after drinking all of Voldemort's horcrux-hiding potion. Else why would D have frozen Harry? -- Snape had to be allowed to kill D.

I gotta say, though, the whole Snape-as-Half-Blood-Prince theme did nada for me. Didn't develop the character, didn't move forward the relationship between Harry and Snape. The last-chapter "revelation" about Snape's pureblood mom and Muggle dad was a fizzle -- So The F What, you know??? Very deus ex machina. If someone can expound on why it matters a whit that there was a HBP and Snape was he, I'm listening and curious.

I'm puzzled why others found Harry/Ginny to be out of left field. She clearly had the hugest crush on him forever, and he clearly more than anything wants to belong, really belong, to the Weasley family -- and Ginny is so much more his type than Cho or any of the other girls. I assumed when Ginny was a first-year that eventually they would hook up.

I disagree, however, with the prediction that they will ultimately wind up living happily ever after together. My stepson explained to me years ago that Ron and Hermione are obviously the series's Hans and Leia, destined to be together forever, but that Harry has more the makings of a Frodo. This journey will consume him, if not kill him. Tragic lone hero and all that. Every life lesson/morality tale in each book in the series has him coming to grips a little further with what he has lost, what he is losing, in this grand archetypal battle. Such a figure does not in the end set up housekeeping and raise a hundred fat children. He is the sacrifice that allows the more mundane of us to enjoy life's simpler pleasures.

Of course I hope I'm wrong. But that's the vibe I get from each book, and never more strongly than from this one.

-----
"Is it time to go to sleep again?"
"No, mei-mei. It's time to wake up."

(River and Simon, last scene in "Ariel."

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:01 PM

SONG, that is a fascinating response.

I completely agree with you about the HBP. I think both the HBP and Slug Club plotlines were completely useless and the book would have lost nothing if they weren't there. I really don't get either of them especially Slughown. I do have a theory about the HBP though but we will have to see what Book 7 brings. I think that the whole plot was to make everyone think he hates non-pure wizards and was emphasising his wizarding connections (an unnecessarily big red-herring if you ask me). I think, however that he was proud of his father and that is why he chose the HB part. It seems fairly obvious as well that he is so sorry for what he did because he was in love with Lily Potter and her death set him on the path to righteousness. This would also explain why he keeps protecting Harry - even at the very end. Plus, his reaction to being called a coward was so obviously anger at having to be hated by everyone and act as a double-agent but without the good guys even knowing.

I think Harry will go one of two ways - the lone hero as you suggest (in which case I think he will die and everybody else will end up completely happy-ever-after) or he will finally get everything he wants because he has had his friends to support him all along (a bit like Buffy). I thought there would be more deaths in this book and I doubt many more will die in Book 7 - JK seems to have chickened out a bit, wither that or I have seen to much Angel.

However, I still don't get the Harry/Ginny thing. Perhaps, in one way your suggestion about being part of the Weasley family stands. That would explain why he wants to be with her - she is an entrance into what he desparately craves. After OotP I was sure that he would end up with Luna (who would develop into a less fairy-like person) and I still stand with the idea that that would make more sense. Ginny is just too ordinary. Neville and Luna is too easy and obvious and also makes me a bit angry - why should two loners end up together? Surely, after all they have done they deserve to be part of the inner circle?

I am sure I will get shouted down for that one though.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:10 PM

LIZANNE

After reading the book I have a new favorite of the six, (used to be PoA). I love love loved it. I enjoyed the humor the most and Ginny absolutely kicks ass. The relationshippy stuff I enjoyed, especially the way Harry and Ginny got together.

I knew who the HBP so early in the book I shocked myself, (I'm usually quite slow with things like that). I too didn't understand what his importance was beyond helping Harry through potions but.. the whole last scene with Snape flew by with me so I have to re-read it. I seriously doubt that Snape is a bad guy. For all the evidence posted here and because I don't want to think of Dumbledore as a dupe.

As to R.A.B and the horcruxes... does anyone remember from book 5 how, when they were cleaning out number twelve Grimmauld Place, they happened upon a locket that couldn't be opened? Hmm..

Jo rocks and I *cannot* wait until book 7. Really really.

Liz
Nathan sat next to me

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 8:40 PM

My God Liz, you have it, especially as RAB is probably Regulus Black. The horcrux is at Grimmauld Place - well done you!

Are we sure Regulus is dead? It would seem a shame

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Sunday, July 17, 2005 10:29 PM

LIZANNE

Well, Mundugus had been stealing stuff from number twelve so it's quite possible for it to be gone.

Liz
Nathan sat next to me.

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Monday, July 18, 2005 1:49 AM

SONG

Ooh, the locket at Grimmauld Place, just casually snuck in to a previous book. Fits with R.A.B. and everything. Wouldn't that be shiny?

But R.A.B.'s note made it clear s/he would immediately destroy the horcrux, not stash it somewhere for future purpose.

And can you imagine what would have happened with the Slytherin locket just hanging around the Black house all those years? Kreacher would have known, and used it or his knowledge of it, in some way.

D'ya think Voldemort can tell when one of his horcruxes has been moved or destroyed?

-----
"Is it time to go to sleep again?"
"No, mei-mei. It's time to wake up."

(River and Simon, last scene in "Ariel."

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Monday, July 18, 2005 1:52 AM

"Everyone" seems to assume RAB is Regalus - which surely means it isn't! Someone on another board has queried whether it could the Bones family, or does it refer to two people (R and B).

Was watching an interview with JKR yesterday and she was asked why Ravenclaw are ignored in the books - she said Ravenclaw will have their day...(wink wink!).

Glad I've decided to go back & read Book 5 - can keep an eye out for lockets!

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Monday, July 18, 2005 2:04 AM

Quote:
"Everyone" seems to assume RAB is Regalus - which surely means it isn't!

But after this book I am less convinced that I will be surprised by anything that happens. It is still fun but has become a might too predictable... (although, to be fair, I didn't guess Snape would kill Dumblydorus)

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Monday, July 18, 2005 2:12 AM

SONG

Quote:
Originally posted by Emma:
I think that the whole plot was to make everyone think he hates non-pure wizards ...

But Snape is head of Slytherin house -- I just assumed he shared that prejudice, as it is basically written into the house's charter. Come to think of it, Snape's parentage was never secret -- how did he end up head of Slytherin house, if a founding principle was the pure blood thing?

Quote:
... and was emphasising his wizarding connections (an unnecessarily big red-herring if you ask me).

I don't understand this. How did the HBP plotline serve to deceptively emphasize Snape's wizarding connections? Explain, please.

Quote:
It seems fairly obvious as well that he is so sorry for what he did because he was in love with Lily Potter and her death set him on the path to righteousness. This would also explain why he keeps protecting Harry - even at the very end. Plus, his reaction to being called a coward was so obviously anger at having to be hated by everyone and act as a double-agent but without the good guys even knowing.

Yes, I agree, very good. Poor Snape, if all of the above is true. I did wonder at his words to Harry as he kept aborting Harry's spells as he fled: "No Unforgivable curses for you, Potter." Remember, the book opens with Snape making that Unbreakable Oath to kill Dumbledore. At least Snape, and probably Dumbledore as well, knew the year would have to end with either D's death or Snape's. And remember that D tells Malfoy he knew M's mission all along, but hadn't stopped him for fear of getting him murdered by Valdemort.

Do you think the whole closing action scene was set up in advance by Dumbledore and Snape, as a way of protecting both Harry and Draco from doing anything TOO awful, just yet?

Of course, Draco is with Snape headed for Voldemort now, so that hardly supports my theory.

Quote:
JK seems to have chickened out a bit, either that or I have seen to much Angel.

Bwaaa-haa-haa ROFLOL. The latter, I think. Thanks for the laugh. Good start to my Monday!

-----
"Is it time to go to sleep again?"
"No, mei-mei. It's time to wake up."

(River and Simon, last scene in "Ariel."

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Monday, July 18, 2005 2:34 AM

Glad I amused you, I try...

Ok wizaring connections was probably not the correct phrase to use - 'wizarding prejudices' would probably have been better. I think that the HBP thing is meant to give the reader the idea that he hates 'mudbloods' as he calls them but I don't actually think he does. The only real evidence we have for this (and correct me if I am wrong) is that he uses the term 'mudblood' which in itself does not mean much. There are plenty of people who try to reclaim derogatory terms used against them in order to take power from the bigots - queer, paki, nigger have all (to some extent) been reclaimed by those whom the terms are meant to offend.

The death scene was definitely set-up, as was the Unbreakable Vow. I don't think it was meant to happen quite like that (I can't imagine DD would want Harry to see his demise) but yes, I think they planned his death so he could become more powerful (Obi-Wan style) and Snape more 'in' with the Dark Lord.

I don't think Snape and Malfoy are off to see Voldemort. I think Snape is going to try and 'rescue' Malfoy from the dark side somehow - we shall see though.

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Monday, July 18, 2005 2:40 AM

Whilst I think I sadly have to accept that Dumbledore is gone, found this on a forum at http://diagonally.net and thought it might spark some more controversy!

Quote:
anneinchicago wrote:
I don't believe it was Dumbledore in the cave. My reasons? There are three.

Second, Dumbledore drinks the potion. Here are the words he says: (pages 571-574-USA edition)

"I don't want... Don't make me..."

"... don't like... want to stop..."

"No." "I don't want to... Let me go...Let me go..."

"Make it stop.Make it stop."

"No, no,no,no. I can't, I can't, don't make me, I don't want to..."

"It's all my fault, all my fault. Please make it stop, I know I did wrong, oh please make it stop and I'll never, never, again..."

"Don't hurt them, don't hurt them, please, please, it's my fault, hurt me instead..."

And so on, followed by "KILL ME!"

i think snape took harry to that cave, with help from polyjuice potion that snape easily could have brewed himself

(looks quite a good forum BTW - intelligent comments/suggestions compared to some other sites.)

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Monday, July 18, 2005 4:41 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by Lizanne:
After reading the book I have a new favorite of the six, (used to be PoA). I love love loved it.

I also REALLY loved this book, and it improved Chamber of Secrets (now that I know there was so much foreshadowing there..).

I wanted to add a couple of things about Professor Slughorn:
Professor Slughorn is an interesting addition, I am reminded of The Prime of Miss Jean Brody, the story of a teacher who influenced her students to disaster. Most stories of influential teachers are considered to be a good thing, like Robin Williams in Dead Poets Society
or Kevin Kline in The Emperor’s Club.
Slughorn evidently makes it his life’s work to mold the minds of the young, choose students he can mentor and influence, and then bask in the reflected glory of their success.
I think he purposely had that love potion brewing because it would relax his students and make himself and his subject more appealing. I also think he purposely chose that book for Harry because nothing succeeds like success. If you want to be a student’s favorite teacher then you want to make sure that student does really well in the class.
I think he is an interesting character and a commentary on a certain teaching style that JKR hadn't presented before.... I think the reason for introducing the character is that you can see that in Slughorn's efforts to influence his students, he ended up easy prey for Tom Riddle to gain access to knowledge that would have been hidden from him as a student.
Therefore he (Slughorn) was an important character in this book.

2. I wanted to discuss ‘The Half Blood Prince’:
My theory right off the bat was that this was Prof. Snape’s old school book, he clearly excelled at potions and it would make sense that he would have found ways to improve on the text book.
I felt that it was interesting that he taught Harry more from the margins of his old textbook than he ever taught Harry in class.
(BTW did you notice that Snape was STILL trying to teach Harry at the last minute? Trying to force Harry that he needs to work on his non-verbal spells and his Occulthingy when Snape shouted:
"learn to keep your mouth shut and your mind closed, Potter!"
as Snape blocked all of Harry's attacks instead of attacking him back.

Which leads to an interesting aside. Hermione’s resentment of Harry using the suggestions in the margins of the book. Is it just because they are not straight from the text book? I could understand her feeling that Harry is stealing someone else’s work, but it isn’t like Hermione is doing any original work, she is slavishly following what is in the text book. Which is what she always does, she memorizes rather than thinks. She has never tried to use her imagination or creativity, which clearly ‘the half blood prince’ has done. Harry is benefitting from this previous student’s brilliance, which may be opportunistic but at least shows that he is willing to try new things and think outside the box. Hermione needs to open her mind and exercise her talents instead of trying to get everyone else to be the stifled slave to convention that she is.

Personally I think that text book will still have a role to play in the future....

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Monday, July 18, 2005 4:48 AM

Just a thought (and going back to my previous comment regarding the lack of teamwork in this book), remember how Hermione used to love investigating for Harry (eg The Philosopher's Stone). Wouldn't the "normal" Hermione have been intrigued to learn who the Half-Blood Prince was? Sadly no, she was too busy spending the whole book sulking...

Dammitt, must stop thinking negative thoughts because I did actually really enjoy the book!

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Monday, July 18, 2005 5:07 AM

But, in fairness to Hermione, she did figure out who the HBP was. We just didn't want to accept it because Harry didn't want to accept it.

And I think that if Hermione was just a go by the book, never think outside the box kind of person, she would have been put in Ravenclaw. There's a reason she's in Gryffindor. She has her faults (one of them was that she was jealous that Harry was doing better at Potions than her) but I think it's unfair to say she didn't contribute to the plot or that she spent all her time sulking.

Do you really think she'll find long term satisfaction on a relationship with Ron? Will he ever grow up? He's the oldest of the three yet the most immature. I have a hard time accepting that he's "worthy" of Hermione, and figuring out just why Hermione likes him (though I've been rooting for them to get together for ages.)

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

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Monday, July 18, 2005 5:19 AM

Hermione & Ron, hmmm...the thing that got me about the relationships in HP6 is that the participants seemed to be acting more like 13/14 year olds than 16/17 year olds. Maybe it was just the way it was written (sink plungers & the like). Personally I'm not bothered one way or another whether they get together - I hate it when they're not speaking to eachother but ultimately their friendship means more to me than whether they have a relationship (and you're so right about the difference in their mental ages!).

Of course whose to say they'll all survive long enough to have long-term relationships...

OK, I concede that Hermione did investigate the Half-Blood Prince. But to my mind this was more a point of getting rid of a rival (ie the book) than out of genuine curiosity. Having said that, to be fair, they had no reason to suspect that the book was of any great significance (other than that it could be dangerous), so there was no need to investigate it a la Tom Riddle's diary...

(have to stop now...am confusing myself!)
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Monday, July 18, 2005 7:48 AM

Fray-you're right. Hermione's interest in figuring out who the HBP is was purely because she was jealous. The problem is that there really wasn't this big huge mystery for the three of them to solve. But what I want to know is-why didn't Harry share what he learned with his pals? If it was working so well, you'd think Ron and everyone else would be coping the HBP's notes in their books, too?
It also makes me wonder that if Snape had been teaching the Advanced Potions, would he have told his classes about his better methods? He should seriously consider writing his own textbook (if of course, he isn't really evil-which I still doubt-and he survives Book 7!)

I also think that the book should have been a bit longer just so that all the supporting characters could have been given a bit of flesh. Neville and Luna and McGonagall and Hagrid and Grawp and Seamus and so many others were barely mentioned. JK was relying heavily, I think, on the fact that we knew them all so well already that she didn't have to do much with them. I had really hoped that Neville would become a kind of 4th member of the gang. I just love him. And I hate cliques. He certainly proved his worth and his loyalty to Harry in the last book, but Harry only seems to want to be his friend (or Luna's for that matter) when it seems convenient for him, which just isn't fair to poor Neville. So I think that if there had been a few more pages, JK could have added a few little throw away scenes. Like the 3 visiting Hagrid and Grawp, or playing wizard chess with Neville. Luna reading the Quibbler in the Three Broomsticks at a Hogsmead visit and making everyone laugh with the funny stuff she says. Seamus and Dean getting in a fight (I love those.) Harry could have paid Firenze a visit, just because I think Firenze is interesting.
And that reminds me that after Harry dismissed Kreacher to Hogwarts at the beginning, I spent the rest of the book thinking "Where's Dobby? Winky? Kreacher?" So I was relieved when they finally showed up for a teeny bit. (Well, except Winky. I'm hoping she's in ElfRehab or something.)
But now I'm nitpicking.

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

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Monday, July 18, 2005 8:44 AM

Serenity, you are so not nit-picking I agree with everything you have written. Eloquent and to the point, I have nothing more to add (tonight anyway... I am sure something will come to me tomorrow).

extremely dimensionally transcendental

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Monday, July 18, 2005 10:29 AM

aw, Emma called me eloquent! thanks Emma!

"Somebody has to do something, and it's just incredibly pathetic that it has to be us." ~Jerry Garcia

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Monday, July 18, 2005 11:35 AM

MISGUIDED BY VOICES

Quote:
Originally posted by amygdala:

Snape is actually a good guy.

- Snape and Dumbledore are overheard arguing about something that Snape doesn't want to do (ie. what he ends up doing).
- Dumbledore's reaction to Snape turning is "Severus, please", not "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!" or anything along the same vein as what he was saying to the other Death-eaters. He could equally be asking Snape to do what they'd agreed to (ie. what he did).

- As Snape is running away after doing what he did, his 'taunts' to Harry are actually some pretty damn good advice about what he should be working on as far as magic.

I'm with you -

"Severus, please" - what if Dumbledore was already dying from the liquid he drunk (hey, Harry, room for another serving of guilt on your plate?), or was turning into an Inferi because of it?

or

"Potter, no!" - Severus needed to get away to finish his task for Dumbledore. This was the only to prove his turn back was complete - to kill Dumbledore in front of witnesses.

I enjoyed the book - okay, not many "events" happened, but this one always had to be about moving the final pieces into play - didn't like the opening, but after that it really kept going till the end.

"I threw up on your bed"

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 3:07 AM

Basically, I just want the next book NOW, dammit.

----
I swallowed a bug.

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:16 AM

GWEK

Thought the book was good. Not great, but definitely good (I think I liked it better than 4 and 5... I have a preference for the earlier books).

I know a lot of folks felt that the Slughorn and HBP plots didn't go anywhere, and I'm sort of inclined to agree, but I don't think they were supposed to. This book was, to me, about us learning all about who Voldemort is and how he got to be there, and both Slughorn and Snape are echoes of him to some degree (as are Harry and Malfoy). So, to my mind, the stories didn't do much on their own, but as reflections of Tom Riddle, I think they add a lot.

I think the romance sub-plot with Harry and Ginny is also pivotal, since we've pretty much been told that love is Harry's weapon against Voldemort. So, for that to work, he's got to love someone.

At this point, my guesses about the final book go something like this:

Harry, Ron and Hermione (possibly assisted by others, including Tonks and Lupin) track down and destroy the remaining Horcruxes.

School continues without them, although they'll probably need to sneak on-campus at least once or twice to speak with Dumbledore (note that by implying that Harry will not be at Hogswart's next year, Rowling can allow Dumbledore's demise to have continued impact... if Harry could just go talk to the painting every day, it wouldn't mean anything).

Much as I hate to say it, I think that Snape is a good guy, but, for some reason, needs HARRY to believe he's a bad guy, so Dumbledore had to sacrifice himself to that end.

As our heroes close in on Voldemort, he'll attack Hogswart's and, among other things, kidnap Ginny (who Harry has conveniently isolated from those who would protect her).

Final confrontation will invlove Voldemort vs. Harry, with Harry protecting Ginny, bringing things full circle to the way his mother protected him.

Of course, I haven't gotten all that much sleep since Saturday, so I may not be that coherent.

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:26 AM

RELFEXIVE

Good book.

Who knows what may have passed between the minds of Dumbledore and Snape as they stood there? Dumbledore's appeal to him might have been the only part anyone heard out loud. Given the choice between:

a) Snape breaks the vow, dies, Dumbledore dies when someone else kills him anyway, all plans fail

b) Snape kills Dumbledore, Snape continues as before in deep-ish cover, plans continue

b seems the better option.

I never got that Snape was the HBP. But I'm often a lazy reader as much as I am a lazy film/tv viewer.

A lot of the secondary characters fell into the background, that's for sure. I'm not sure I miss them all that much though; the story's not about them, in the end. Maybe I'm not as involved in it as everyone else seems to be.

Sad to see Albus go, though. The only way we'll see him again is in the Pensieve, or from his headmaster portrait. The only way he could Obi-Wan it is as a ghost, which doesn't seem likely. Dead is dead in HP-Land.

To add to what has been said before, Snape's evil act can only mean he is good (or at least not truly irredeemably evil) and will thus suffer a heroic death of sorts. Or maybe be struck down unfairly. I don't think he'll die before answering numerous important questions, though.

Will it all end well? Hard to say. They certainly deserve it, but that doesn't mean a thing. I hope so.

"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 4:33 AM

RELFEXIVE

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Thought the book was good. Not great, but definitely good (I think I liked it better than 4 and 5... I have a preference for the earlier books).

I know a lot of folks felt that the Slughorn and HBP plots didn't go anywhere, and I'm sort of inclined to agree, but I don't think they were supposed to. This book was, to me, about us learning all about who Voldemort is and how he got to be there, and both Slughorn and Snape are echoes of him to some degree (as are Harry and Malfoy). So, to my mind, the stories didn't do much on their own, but as reflections of Tom Riddle, I think they add a lot.

I think the romance sub-plot with Harry and Ginny is also pivotal, since we've pretty much been told that love is Harry's weapon against Voldemort. So, for that to work, he's got to love someone.

At this point, my guesses about the final book go something like this:

Harry, Ron and Hermione (possibly assisted by others, including Tonks and Lupin) track down and destroy the remaining Horcruxes.

School continues without them, although they'll probably need to sneak on-campus at least once or twice to speak with Dumbledore (note that by implying that Harry will not be at Hogswart's next year, Rowling can allow Dumbledore's demise to have continued impact... if Harry could just go talk to the painting every day, it wouldn't mean anything).

Much as I hate to say it, I think that Snape is a good guy, but, for some reason, needs HARRY to believe he's a bad guy, so Dumbledore had to sacrifice himself to that end.

As our heroes close in on Voldemort, he'll attack Hogswart's and, among other things, kidnap Ginny (who Harry has conveniently isolated from those who would protect her).

Final confrontation will invlove Voldemort vs. Harry, with Harry protecting Ginny, bringing things full circle to the way his mother protected him.

Of course, I haven't gotten all that much sleep since Saturday, so I may not be that coherent.

Hmmm... good call on Slughorn, HBP etc echoing Voldemort. And the love thing. And the portrait thing too.

Harry sacrificing himself to save Ginny and mirroring his mother's sacrifice? Interesting... and if Voldemort has no horcruxes by that point he'd die. But... who would be our viewpoint then? Who would we see through the end of the book with?

...unless Ginny sacrifices herself for Harry...

"My God - you're like a trained ape. Without the training."

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:02 PM

SICKDUDE

Quote:
Originally posted by fray101:
Also, that RAB is Regalus Black. Any other theories there?

I had a theory on RAB. The proprietor (or a family member) of Bobbins & Burke. We were never given a first name, and since Riddle worked there at the proper time in history, he is in a unique position to be one of just a few people to know about the horcruxes and the cave.

I want to believe Snape is good, too. We shall see. Don't forget, Dumbledore had been ingesting poison, and maybe was a goner anyway.

"Don't say 'ka' until you've tried it." Daniel Jackson

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Tuesday, July 19, 2005 1:11 PM