Star Wars - Timeline issues by AURaptor

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Star Wars - Timeline issues

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Thursday, June 8, 2006 03:54
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Thursday, June 1, 2006 7:57 PM

America loves a winner!

Among the list of things i didn't like per the prequels, one of my biggest issues was the timeline.The fall of the old Republic and the conversion of Anakin to Darth occurs not too long prior to Luke and Leia's birth, right ? But from A New Hope, we enter into a world where Jedi Knights are all but forgotten. A crusty old 'wizard' type figure living in the hills of Tatooine , who looks to be in his early 70's. So how old does that make Obi Wan at the end of Revenge of the Sith ? Mid 30's? Tops ? So if Luke and Leia are at their early 20's ( remember, Luke wants to go to school and become a pilot..he can't be much older than 22, tops ) Obi Wan shouldn't be much older than his mid 50's.

Also, from ANH, the discussion between Admiral Motti and Darth Vader. Motti, who appears to be roughly in his mid 40's, should surely be old enough to remember the Jedi Knights.

And Gov. Tarkin's comments as Vader senses the presence of his former master, Obi Wan - " Surely he must be dead by now. " Makes me think he'd expect Obi Wan to be far too old to still be alive.

And what about Han Solo? He claims to have flown from one end of the galaxy to the other, and has never even remotely acknowledged any such thing as 'The Force'. But if he's in his mid 30's by the time of ANH, seems he'd have at least heard SOMETHING. Even if he never faced it, I find it hard to buy that anyone as well traveled as Solo wouldn't have seen / heard something, even if he never bought into it.

My basic point in all this is that there seems to be a great disconnect in how Lucas formulated the whole story. On the one hand, we get a sense that the old Republic is a distant memory, and that Jedi Knights and those familiar w/ The Force have become the stuff of fairy tales and legend. But in contrast, all that universal amnesia seems to have occured in a period of less than 25 years. But Vader and Obi Wan both seem to have aged nearly twice that much.

Dunno how much this has been discussed, but it's bugged me since the prequels came out. Just wanted to vent.

Better now.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 8:20 PM

STDOUBT

I honestly think it's a matter of Luacs simply
being both sloppy and bound by certain casting
realities.
This site has a theory that might help you:
http://www.ammon-ra.com/skywalkerparadigm/main.html
It may also twist your melon beyond repair.
FWIW, it's really a fascinating read.
The links at the bottom of the page lead to
analyses of each Ep.

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Thursday, June 1, 2006 8:27 PM

STAKETHELURK

While I don't disagree with the overall point, "that there seems to be a great disconnect in how Lucas formulated the whole story," I do think with regards to how the Jedi are thought of in the classic trilogy there isn't too much of a problem.

In the prequels, we see that the Jedi are reclusive and secretive. It's likely that most of the population knows very little about them, and could well be suspicious of the tremendous authority being invested in what appears to be a secretive, unelected cult. Moreover, given their very small numbers and the very large size of the galaxy, it's likely that most people would never have seen a Jedi (and thus an exhibition of the Force) firsthand, which makes it all the more easy to convince them that the Jedi are a fraud.

Which is the next important point. Palpatine's legitimacy is based in part on the supposed "treason" of the Jedi, so it's in his best interest to spread misinformation that supports his side of things. And even just twenty years under a totalitarian regime can really warp people's perspectives, especially given that they were likely distrustful of the Jedi to begin with and probably also believed Palpatine was attacked by them. So it's easy to see how the Force could come to be widely seen as a "hokey religion" within just twenty years--it's in the Emperor's best interest to attack the main source of the Jedi's legitimacy, their mysterious power, and his audience is receptive to his assertions (the Emperor is probably also eager to encourage disbelief in the force since he himself relies on it so much--no one would think to counter what they believe doesn't exist). So, given the amount of distortion and propaganda the Empire no doubt disseminated over twenty years (and compare with the effect of some historical totalitarian regimes which didn't even last that long), it's easy to see why within a generation the Republic had become a distant memory and the Jedi only remembered as frauds.

Tarkin's comment about Obi-wan, "Surely he must be dead by now," always seemed to me to be referring to the fact that the Empire has no doubt been scouring the galaxy over the past twenty years for any surviving Jedi, to the point where they're pretty sure the Jedi are extinct.

As to the complaint about aging, I don't really have much of an answer to that one. As I said at the beginning, I agree with your basic premise about a major disconnect within the storyline. But I've always appreciated the Imperial misinformation about the Jedi to be one of the more realistic and interesting aspects of the classic trilogy.

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Friday, June 2, 2006 2:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
As to the complaint about aging, I don't really have much of an answer to that one. As I said at the beginning, I agree with your basic premise about a major disconnect within the storyline. But I've always appreciated the Imperial misinformation about the Jedi to be one of the more realistic and interesting aspects of the classic trilogy.

I have thought of one possible way that might give Lucas some wiggle room here, but I really doubt that he would have given it much ( any ) thought. Plus I don't think that , if he had thought of it, it's applied in any rational manner.

The whole of humanity and how we age is based upon our view from one perspective. How we age here, on Earth. As Obi Wan put it so eloquently,

.... "many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view. "

Its known that those who travel in space age slower than those who remain on Earth. Time slows down, for some reason..anyway, it could be that different planets promote different aging rates from each other... but still. If that's the case, the shouldn't Luke and Leia be noticably different in their age if they grew up on different planets ?

I'm just shooting from the hip here, and not really doing any in depth analysis. Just my 2 cents.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, June 2, 2006 2:25 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by STDOUBT:
I honestly think it's a matter of Luacs simply
being both sloppy and bound by certain casting
realities.
This site has a theory that might help you:
http://www.ammon-ra.com/skywalkerparadigm/main.html
It may also twist your melon beyond repair.
FWIW, it's really a fascinating read.
The links at the bottom of the page lead to
analyses of each Ep.

Checked the link out. Looks more like something that piratenews would be prould of. Lots of wild accusations and narry one ounce of hard evidence.

Funny, though.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, June 2, 2006 12:10 PM

STAKETHELURK

“Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own points of view” is definitely a good quote to have in mind when dealing with some of Lucas’ continuity messes (and a good quote to keep in mind generally). If we take the POV of treating the saga as a film, then it’s pretty clear that Lucas was basically fudging with continuity in the classic trilogy to get wanted he wanted in the prequels. Like JonnyAnimal said, it’s the result of him writing the actual scripts of the two trilogies decades apart, working off only a vague outline.

If we take the POV of trying to find some internally consistent explanation, then it gets tougher. Personally, I tend to go with the fudging of the ages theory that JonnyAnimal advanced. I like your own explanation, because it sticks with the philosophy of the series. Unfortunately, it doesn’t quite work in the fictional Star Wars universe.

Quote:
Its known that those who travel in space age slower than those who remain on Earth. Time slows down, for some reason..

Spacefarers age slower only if they travel at relativistic speeds (close to the speed of light). Because the Star Wars ships get around relativity by jumping into hyperspace, they avoid any such time dilation. So, while a scientifically sound explanation, it doesn’t apply to the Star Wars universe.

If you want another timeline question, how ‘bout that first Death Star taking twenty years to build while the second one gets done in only four? My only explanation for that one is that the shot of the first Death Star being built takes place much further in the future than the other images in that montage. But even Lucas doesn’t really have a good explanation for that one.

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Friday, June 2, 2006 2:20 PM

STORYMARK

It could also be that what we see at the end of Ep III is a prototype, and not the actual Death Star from ANH.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, June 3, 2006 1:11 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

As Hadden says in Contact, why build one when you can get the price of two (probably misquoting.) The Emporer in most aspects isn't a fool. He knows how vast the galaxy is and how hard it'll be to keep people in line, one Death Star will frighten people into playing nice but since we've seen how slow it moves it'd take a while to get from one end of the galactic empire to another. Maybe he realized he'd have to build more to ensure his hold over space. Makes sense to me. You don't build one warship even if it is the most powerful weapon devised, not when you have a whole galaxy to enforce. And from what we've been shown it's a hella big galaxy. As to the length the 1st one took to build as opposed to the second, well think about cars, or ships or anything mechanical, after you build one and know where all the pieces go the next one is easy. They had twenty yars to figure out how to build the thing (and learn it's vulnerable spots) and by then the Empire has a galaxy of resources at their command. They built the prototype as someone said, so the second one came easier. Well that's my opinion. Just think if the Rebels hadn't won, the galaxy would be infested with Death Stars. Not only to enforce the laws but expand the Emporers territory. No one will argure if there are two Death Stars hovering in your back yard.

As for the timeline that's easy, what we saw in the prequels was (best Doug Henning impersonation) "All an illusion."

If I'm a bitch, then life just got interesting

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Tuesday, June 6, 2006 6:25 PM

RAVENHAIR

I avoid all the timeline problems (which to me is just the result of Lucas not really caring about the logic of it all) by not watching the prequels (I may watch the third as a separate entity on occasion).

*****
Mal:We're still flying.
Simon: That's not much.
Mal: It's enough.

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Wednesday, June 7, 2006 4:37 PM

STEGASAURUS

In regards to the Death Stars, if you read any of the books, the Jedi Academy trilogy explains that there is actually a third (or more appropriately the prototype) one located in "The Maw" (a secret Imperial Weapons and Research Facility located in the center of a cluster of black holes that is near Kessel. The prototype is a basic skeleton with a fully functional laser emitter. Oh, and Tarkin came up with the design.

Interestingly, the books were written before any of the Prequels, and thus there are some discrepancies. They explain in the books that Vader looses his hand because he failed the Emperor in some way. I'm not sure but I think it was when the Death Star was destroyed in EpIV:ANH.

There are 2 trilogy series that I recommend, the Thrawn series and the Jedi Academy series. If you can look past some of the major discrepancies, they do make for a very good read.

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Wednesday, June 7, 2006 8:51 PM

SINGATE

Quote:
Originally posted by Stegasaurus:
In regards to the Death Stars, if you read any of the books, the Jedi Academy trilogy explains that there is actually a third (or more appropriately the prototype) one located in "The Maw" (a secret Imperial Weapons and Research Facility located in the center of a cluster of black holes that is near Kessel. The prototype is a basic skeleton with a fully functional laser emitter. Oh, and Tarkin came up with the design.

Interestingly, the books were written before any of the Prequels, and thus there are some discrepancies. They explain in the books that Vader looses his hand because he failed the Emperor in some way. I'm not sure but I think it was when the Death Star was destroyed in EpIV:ANH.

There are 2 trilogy series that I recommend, the Thrawn series and the Jedi Academy series. If you can look past some of the major discrepancies, they do make for a very good read.

Finally another fan of some Star Wars EU! Those two storylines were outstanding. Just one thing, I thought it was some Imperial scientist named Bevel Lemelisk(sp?) who devised the plans for the Death Star. Wasn't there a female character in the Jedi Academy series named Qwi, stationed in the Maw, who mentioned working under the man who designed the Death Star? If I remember correctly his punishment for the exhaust vent design flaw was particularly brutal.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Thursday, June 8, 2006 12:49 AM

PRAIRIEDOGG

Star Wars makes me angry! I watched the first (which I refer to as Star Wars) last night and thought about how pathetically weak the others are. Star Wars was great, The Empire Strikes Back good. All others were absolute rubish! I liken them to watching someone else play a video game. Its interesting visually for about 10 minutes and then you check your watch and think about how much you should be washing the dishes. Lucas says he's a visual story teller and not a literary story teller, but this always struck me as a great cop-out for the crappy story lines of all of the movies after the first. On top of that the visuals weren't even that spectacular. The acting was weak but I totally blame the pathetic scripts, the "every next movie has to outdo the last" computer generated effects (Yoda bouncin around was kinda funny for a minute and then you just put your hand on your forhead and think how miserably this guy screwed up a potentially really cool universe worth of story telling). Someone could come along and make a new movie set in the Star Wars universe with almost no special effects, tell the story of a Jedi and make it great. But I have absolutely no faith that Lucas can or will.

"You're such a boob." - River

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Thursday, June 8, 2006 1:14 AM

MICK91

Being a die hard Star Wars fan, I agree that the story telling has seriously gone down the crapper! My friends and I often talk about the Star Wars that could have been and have become very disappointed with George Lucas (although he has made a hell of a lot more money than most). Episode III tried hard to bring back the Star Wars we used to know, but was still a victim of poor acting and dialogue - "Hold me, like you did by the lake on Naboo." Ouch!!!

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Thursday, June 8, 2006 2:42 AM

DUG

3 points:

1. If Obi Wan aged due to drinking at the cantina there would be a lot more one-armed people on Tatooine.

2. By the time the ROTS came out I don't think Lucas even qualified as a visual story teller anymore. He was just slapping visuals on the screen because he liked them and at the end of each scene moving the plot along with one or two lines of dialog. Amazing fight; amazing fight, awesome powers, oh? It's time for Anakin to lose so he does for no real reason.....Same for almost every scene in that movie.

3. Referring back to the reason Anakin lost. Remember, Obi-Wan had the higher ground, right? Forget force-jumps, speed, telekinetics, etc. 3 feet makes *all the difference*. That means Yoda can never win a fight. Ever.

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Thursday, June 8, 2006 3:17 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by singate:
Finally another fan of some Star Wars EU!

And another here.

And, regarding the Death Star, it was Tarkin's concept (the "rule through fear" doctrine), as produced by a design team headed by Lemelisk (i.e., they did all the work, Lemelisk took the credit, because he was a human, and Palpatine was a bigot against non-humans).

The Jedi Academy trilogy explains how Tarkin went around rounding up the best and brightest (from Omwati, and presumably other worlds as well) and testing them. If they failed, their cities were destroyed. That's how he recruited Qwi Xux. She was on the Maw Installation team.

FWIW, all the Maw Installation's team really had to do was perfect the superlaser; the "large spherical spacestation" idea had already been done before, in the form of the Torpedo Sphere --a large orb-shaped craft designed to break through a planetary deflector shield. You can see them in a few of the old WEG RPG sourcebooks.

In my own fanon, that's what the Geonosians were designing, not the Death Star itself.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Thursday, June 8, 2006 3:54 AM

STICK

eh, yall give Lucas far to much credit. He's been playing fast and loose with the cannon for a while now. One such example that comes to mind is Luke and Leia's mother, I think it was in episode 5 after Luke finds out Leia is his sister he asks her some thing to the effect of did you know our mother. Leia's responce "Yes, she was very sad" or something like that. How would she know know her mother if, according to episode 3, she died giving birth? I'm not a huge fan of the Star wars universe, and even I picked up on that one.

"Once you've been to serenity you never leave... you just learn to live there"

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