Spider-man 2: Lame or Rockin'? by chrisisall

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Spider-man 2: Lame or Rockin'?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Sunday, May 13, 2007 08:53
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VIEWED: 2956
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Friday, April 13, 2007 7:19 AM

My case for 2 being lame:

#1 Peter would NEVER just walk by someone getting beat up- he could easily flick his finger and almost knock out the attackers without costuming up.

#2 Spidey was getting shots in at Doc Ock's face- WTF?? One full force blow would KILL him; he's not super-human!!!

#3 Gwen Stacey's neck snapped in the comics from far less violent movement than Aunt May survived in S2!!!!

#4 Doc Ock was a BAD guy, not a poor scientist under dubious AI control...

#5 Mary Jane is a fickle ass in S2, not the cool headed girl from the comics..."I'll marry you...maybe...I love you...oh, no I don't...where's Peter?"

Am I just being too hard on it? I loved the first one...

Critical Chrisisall

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 7:16 AM

EVILDINOSAUR

I dunno, I liked it, not as good as the first one probably, but still good, can't wait to see number 3

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 9:22 AM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

I don't really remember it. Guess that means it sucked for me.

---

"If I were a Nazi, someone would defend my constitutional right to hate Jews. If I were a Klansman, someone would defend my rights to hate blacks. It's a funny place, this world. Hate has rights. Love has none." - Jeff, Murphy's Boy

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 1:37 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Originally posted by chrisisall:
My case for 2 being lame:

Quote:
#1 Peter would NEVER just walk by someone getting beat up- he could easily flick his finger and almost knock out the attackers without costuming up.

Been awhile since I saw it, but no in the comic Petey would never walk by someone getting attacked and not DO something.

Quote:
#2 Spidey was getting shots in at Doc Ock's face- WTF?? One full force blow would KILL him; he's not super-human!!!

I guesse this was their way of trying to show he was equal to Spidey, which he was but not on his own, thus the octo arms. Gobbey was equal in strength because of his formulae but it's the old addage Chris, if the first movie was big on fights, the second has to be over the top (and the third has to be out of orbit. VENOM? How?)

Quote:
#3 Gwen Stacey's neck snapped in the comics from far less violent movement than Aunt May survived in S2!!!!

See above and people's high expectations.

Quote:
#4 Doc Ock was a BAD guy, not a poor scientist under dubious AI control...

FINALLY! Someone else feels the same way. Your are SO right about this and it's what made the second one less enjoyable, especially as I liked the actor they chose to play him and I hated seeing him humanize Doc Ock. He never had a wife. If the director really was a fan of Spiderman he would never have lessened Doc's magnetism as a bad guy and mellowed him out to being a straight honest happily married scientist (wtf?). He wasn't. He was an ambitious man who wanted to prove he was better than his collegues. He wanted to prove his arm extentions could work (and it was the Octo arms he was working on, not whatever that machine was. Why Raimey, WHY?) until things went terribly awry, as a result those arms were on him permantely and he used them (willingly) to wreak a little (or a lot) of havok on the city of New York. It was never about vengence against Spidey for the death of his wife (I SO have issues with that) or finishing his project. It was about doing crime and a little murder on the side and enjoying it. Hell, I'm amazed they didn't give him a kid. And I don't believe I read ONE comic where Peter met the Doctor before the accident or felt like Doc Ock was a mentor. I've mentioned to people these changes ruined what would have been an enjoyable movie for me but they always said it was close enough and not to rag about it. But Doc Ock, for any reason, would'nt sacrifice himself because he was afraid he was turning into a monster. Doc knew he was a monster, and he REVELED in it. That marks a GREAT villian. He knows what he is and enjoys it. And he was always in charge of those arms. Not the other way around. Raimey did a such a soft shod job on the sequel that I'm not sure I want to see the third one. (VENOM!)

Quote:
#5 Mary Jane is a fickle ass in S2, not the cool headed girl from the comics..."I'll marry you...maybe...I love you...oh, no I don't...where's Peter?"

*UGH* MJ, the minute I heard who they got to play her I knew they made a mistake, after seeing the first one I was convinced they had, and after the second. I didn't want to see MJ in the comics get hurt (she was a bitch sometimes in the mag) But this one..... she should be more sure of herself, stronger, actually able to MAKE UP HER MIND WITHOUT A LOT OF ANGSTY "OH I LOVE HIM, BUT I'M NOT SURE, BUT I LOVE HIM" CRAP! Wow, don't know where that came from. Now I see why certain types of written characters are called MaryJanes. Certainly fits the descriptions. I may not like Lois Lane much (especially in the Adventures of Lois "Superman saves her every week" and Clark) but most of the time she at least holds her own. And frankly she doesn't look like MJ, just...... wrong. Wrong, wrong, wrong.

Quote:
Am I just being too hard on it? I loved the first one...

Critical Chrisisall

No, no your not. It is better than any Spiderman made, and a hell of a lot better than Fanblastic Four (which you love so I won't go there) But it seems to me Raimey screwed continuity to make up his own comic book version. And I don't like it. Give me #no 1, they actually got it right (except for making MJ his first love interest instead of Gwen Stacey, but I can overlook that, kinda) I was delighted from beggining to end, but unless it's on tv, I won't go out of my way to watch 2. Pity that.

But.... #no 3. The Symbiot suit? VENOM?

He better have a reeeeaaal good way of explaining how Peter got that, because those comic book crossovers were some of my favorites.

Good threadisall.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

"We can be Heroes.... if just for one day."[/]

~*Peter* Peter*; power *re-peater*~

What do you mean I have to wait
less than 2 fricken weeks for Heroes?

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Saturday, April 14, 2007 11:56 PM

NAFLM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
My case for 2 being lame:

Quote:
#3 Gwen Stacey's neck snapped in the comics from far less violent movement than Aunt May survived in S2!!!!

Comic-book physics. There's a lot of stuff in that doesn't work (falling and being caught by Superman would still be like hitting concrete).

Quote:
Quote:
#4 Doc Ock was a BAD guy, not a poor scientist under dubious AI control...

And I don't believe I read ONE comic where Peter met the Doctor before the accident or felt like Doc Ock was a mentor.

I've only read a few issues of it but I do recall that Doc Octavius worked for the Osborn company in the Ultimate Spider-man series. Peter might have met him before the accident in that comic (don't believe he was a mentor though.). It wouldn't be the only "non-standard" reference point in the movies (I believe only Spider-man 2099 actually shot webs from his wrists).

Quote:
But.... #no 3. The Symbiot suit? VENOM?

He better have a reeeeaaal good way of explaining how Peter got that, because those comic book crossovers were some of my favorites.

Well, I doubt that it will be an alien symbiote. My guess is that it will be something created by by the Osborn company.

Completely agree with the Mary Jane comments. Not much personality to the character, basically just there as a token love interest. Speaking of which, in Ultimate Spider-man MJ is the first love interest. The writers may be using that comic (or even one of the more recent cartoon series) as a reference point for younger fans, since they might not know who Gwen Stacy is.

Does the blame/responsibility really lie with Raimi? As a director does he have that much control of the story or just the presentation of it?

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Monday, April 16, 2007 10:42 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
But Doc Ock, for any reason, wouldn't sacrifice himself because he was afraid he was turning into a monster. Doc knew he was a monster, and he REVELED in it.

Yeah, the fact that Ock was set off by the arms in the movie made him less a villain, and more a poor slob to feel sorry for- but it WOULD explain why Spidey wouldn't cut loose with full power in his punches....

And for all my ranting, I just got Spider-man 2.1!
It's got eight minutes of great little extensions, no full scenes, but a lot of funny and touching moments they trimmed for time. Plus it looks like a bit better transfer than the first edition.

Still, it's Spidey, I just won't look at the scene where he lets the kid get mugged....

Lookin' foward to three Chrisisall

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Monday, April 16, 2007 11:53 AM

ZEEK

Yeah spidey 2 was sort of a weird one, but still a great movie.

#1 I think somehow we are supposed to believe that if Spiderman doesn't feel like a hero then he doesn't have any powers. I mean he lost his web shooting, he lost his eyesight. I assume that means he lost his super strength too. Only after MJ was in trouble did he regain his abilities. It was a dumb plot device IMO.

#2 Doc Ock took a lot of damage in that movie that no human could take. I really don't get what they were thinking there.

#3 Aunt May takes her vitamins. That or it was just one of those things you have to allow to be unrealistic in movies.

#4 Yeah that was an odd twist as well.

#5 You think she wasn't fickle in Spidey 1? She was with Flash, then Harry, then said she LOVED spiderman after seeing him twice, then she said she LOVED Peter by the end of it all. She was way more fickle back then IMO.

The part I hate most about Spidey 2 is how he took off his mask every 5 minutes. "hmmm I seem to have lost my web ability...let me remove my mask in public to examine my wrist." "ouch some sparks hit my mask...better rip this off cause before I used to run through burning buildings and have my mask half blown off by a goblin grenade, but now sparks are too much to handle." "Hi there Ock it's me, Peter Parker." "Hey MJ guess who I am?"

The movies aren't perfect and they aren't direct adaptations of the comics, but they're pretty darn good. I still can't wait for #3.

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Monday, April 16, 2007 12:20 PM

FREDGIBLET

To answer the title of your post, the action was rockin, the story and the relationship crap were lame.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
#1 Peter would NEVER just walk by someone getting beat up- he could easily flick his finger and almost knock out the attackers without costuming up.

That was kinda the point, he was deciding not to get involved, not just not get involved as Spider-Man but not get involved at all. That was kinda the whole point of that sequence in the movie.

Quote:
#2 Spidey was getting shots in at Doc Ock's face- WTF?? One full force blow would KILL him; he's not super-human!!!

This was just one of the f'ed up things in the movie, Doc Ock in the comics uses his arms to block the attacks, but as soon as a couple of shots sneak past the fight is over.

Quote:
#4 Doc Ock was a BAD guy, not a poor scientist under dubious AI control...

The whole AI thing was utterly retarded IMO and certainly wasn't part of the real Spidey series (AFAIK)

Quote:
#5 Mary Jane is a fickle ass in S2, not the cool headed girl from the comics..."I'll marry you...maybe...I love you...oh, no I don't...where's Peter?"

I HATE HATE HATE, the scenes with MJ in the second Spidey, I need to rewatch 1 to see if the character was that bad back then, but the relationship aspect is horrendously overplayed in 2 to the point of being physically painful to watch.

Quote:
Am I just being too hard on it?

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Monday, April 16, 2007 5:58 PM

ACRAZYIVAN

I'm really very surprised at how many people went with "lame" on this one. Spider-Man 2 was probably the single best superhero movie I've ever seen.

I have to start off by saying that you have to give Sam Raimi & crew a little slack. It's absolutly impossible to create a movie copying exactly from comics - especially a comic that has so many different variations. Someone had posted a complaint about Doc Ock never having a wife. While in some Spider-Man comics this is true, in others, it's not. In Spider-Man Unlimited #3 we learn LOTS about Doc Ock's wife. So, that said, there's just an example about how each different storyline from every different set of comics can't be used. They conflict, that's just how it goes.

I'll try and go point-by-point now:

#1 - In general, no, Peter wouldn't walk past someone getting beaten up. There are times when he does ignore crimes, especially when he has been fed up with being trashed in the Bugle and hated by half of New York. It doesn't happen often, and he always makes up for it, but sometimes the web-slinger lets things happen.

#2 Yes, Spidey WAS getting hits to Doc Ock's face. It's referenced NUMEROUS times in the comics, the cartoon, and the video games that Spidey pulls his punches. So no, they didn't suddenly make Ock super-human, they just correctly used parts from Spider-Man cannon, where he pulls his punches when fighting non-superhumans.

#3 While it may be true that Aunt May would have suffered much worse than she did in the battle, she's an amazingly tough woman. She's been in the hospital numerous times throughout the comics and always come out stronger. Most recently, she's been shot in the stomach by the Kingpin's henchmen, and she seems to be pulling through. I wouldn't put it past her to survive that - though getting whiplash from a fall off a bridge will make anyone's neck snap.

#4 Yes, in the comics Doc Ock WAS a 'bad guy' but really, isn't that a tired villan? It seems that nowadays the ONLY villans are ones that are bad for the sake of being bad. Why not give a twist to it, especially if it works for the story, and this did. It's not that insane of an idea, regardless of whether or not it's cannon.

#5 I would be SO much more annoyed with MJ if she was the girl from the comics. Spider-Man 2's MJ was far more human than the older comic book version. Newer comic versions of Mary Jane are very similar to the one on the big screen. She absolutly makes sense as a girl who isn't sure what she wants - what person does?

I guess in closing, I just want to emphasize that changing little things are ok with me. Changing big things - not so much. Every change between comics and Spider-Man 2 didn't bother me at all, and most I didn't even notice. Spider-Man 2 is one of the only superhero movies to actually humanize a comic book idol. Batman Begins was the first Batman movie that did that for me. X-Men and X2 brought X-Men into the 'real' world. (I'm not going to mention X3. It was a huge disappointment for me). By humanizing villians and making them be closer to regular people, the stories become more believeable and the audience is allowed to get more involved and sucked into the movie because it becomes more real. Spider-Man has ALWAYS been about people and the decisions they make. It always has a background of amazing action and colorful characters, but at its core, Spider-Man is about people and choices. By saying that all the character and drama stuff was junk, that's disregarding the whole point of Spider-Man.

Sorry if that was too long-winded for anyone to read.

Keep on flyin'

"We've gotta go to the crappy town where I'm a hero."

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:11 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:

The part I hate most about Spidey 2 is how he took off his mask every 5 minutes. "hmmm I seem to have lost my web ability...let me remove my mask in public to examine my wrist."

Agree totally on that there- too much unmasking...

Am I the only one to get Spidey 2.1?

Chrisisall 2.1

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 6:16 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by ACrazyIvan:
I'm really very surprised at how many people went with "lame" on this one. Spider-Man 2 was probably the single best superhero movie I've ever seen.

ACrazy, while I see where you're coming from in your post, and much of it I can agree on to a point, this statement is in error.
Superman The Movie is the single best superhero movie you've ever seen; you just like Spider-man 2 better it seems.

Chrisisall

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 7:48 AM

STORYMARK

I thought Spidey 2 rocked! In the top 3 of superhero film, IMO (which does not include Superman, sorry Chris).

The physics issue... it's a Spider-Man movie, if I was worried about the physics, I wouldn't enjoy ANY of it.

The fact that Doc Oc was more than just a mustache-twriling villain is part of what made the movie so appealing.

MJ was less fickly than in 1, so no issue there for me.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:44 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
#1 I think somehow we are supposed to believe that if Spiderman doesn't feel like a hero then he doesn't have any powers. I mean he lost his web shooting, he lost his eyesight. I assume that means he lost his super strength too. Only after MJ was in trouble did he regain his abilities. It was a dumb plot device IMO.

That entire subplot could have been excised from the movie. It bugged the hell out of me.

Also MJ running in slow-mo in her wedding dress was unintentionally horrific.

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Tuesday, April 17, 2007 11:48 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Yeah, I have to go for the "lame" argument myself. I mean, I enjoyed it, it there were far too many moments that made me roll my eyes.

3 is looking good though. I really want to see that one.

Oh, I have to admit I did like the part at the end where he saves Mary Jane from getting crushed by the falling wall, showing himself sans mask in the process.

Peter: *holding the wall up* Hey.
Mary: Hey.

*pause*

Peter: This is really heavy.

I also enjoyed the whole train sequence. Even the overly emotional we-won't-tell-anyone-we-promise bit from the passengers. I know it was silly, but I still liked it. Maybe it was because a few seconds later they all tried to stand up to Doc Ock before he pointed out in spectacular fashion just how very, very stupid a plan that was.

Banners, avatars and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 10:37 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Grounded:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
#1 I think somehow we are supposed to believe that if Spiderman doesn't feel like a hero then he doesn't have any powers. I mean he lost his web shooting, he lost his eyesight. I assume that means he lost his super strength too. Only after MJ was in trouble did he regain his abilities. It was a dumb plot device IMO.

That entire subplot could have been excised from the movie. It bugged the hell out of me.

Oh, I have so many issues with everything...Dark Angel season two, X-Men 2, Spider-man 2, Buffy season five...it's like, if I DON'T have issues, I don't really care....(Except with FF/Serenity- where I have NO issues at all, besides wanting more movies and/or episodes)

Issue-laden Chrisisall

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:36 PM

CLJOHNSTON108

I have so many gripes about the whole series, starting with not casting Nick Brendon & Charisma Carpenter as Peter & MJ!

• Why was Doc Ock creating a miniature sun in the middle of Manhattan, and not the vasty empty desert of New Mexico?

• Why did Doc Ock hurl a car at Peter if he wanted him (alive) to take him to Spider-Man?
The only reason Peter survived is because he is Spider-Man!

• More as I think of 'em.

A little thing that keeps gnawin' at me is that you don't see Peter's jaw move under the mask when he's talking.
Every animated version has shown that!

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Wednesday, April 18, 2007 12:47 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by ACrazyIvan:
I'm really very surprised at how many people went with "lame" on this one. Spider-Man 2 was probably the single best superhero movie I've ever seen.

ACrazy, while I see where you're coming from in your post, and much of it I can agree on to a point, this statement is in error.
Superman The Movie is the single best superhero movie you've ever seen; you just like Spider-man 2 better it seems.

Chrisisall

tsk, tsk, I'm sure you meant to say The Hulk right?
*ducks*

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:38 AM

CHRISISALL

Fredgiblet-man make Chrisisall ANGRY!!!
*hurls cement-mixer truck*

Chrisisall

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 5:44 AM

STORYMARK

And for those who do like it (and given it's success, there are plenty, I'm sure), the extended edition came out on DVD this week.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:13 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
And for those who do like it (and given it's success, there are plenty, I'm sure), the extended edition came out on DVD this week.

I have it, and it is SO worth it!!!!
(except the "rides up in the crotch" joke is gone...

)

Chrisisall 2.1

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 7:22 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I have it, and it is SO worth it!!!!
(except the "rides up in the crotch" joke is gone...)

Chrisisall 2.1

really? That seems rather silly (I havn't gotten it yet).

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, April 19, 2007 8:43 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:

really? That seems rather silly

I'ts replaced by a longer, different joke that's not as good. But the rest is very shiny!

Get it Chrisisall

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Friday, April 20, 2007 6:01 AM

CLJOHNSTON108

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Sunday, April 29, 2007 5:38 PM

GUYWHOWANTSAFIREFLYOFHISOWN

Spiderman 2 is one of my all time FAVORITE movies, second only to Serenity.

Why is the rum always gone?

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Monday, April 30, 2007 4:07 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Guywhowantsafireflyofhisown:
Spiderman 2 is one of my all time FAVORITE movies, second only to Serenity.

I believe 3 will top it!

Thwipisall

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Sunday, May 13, 2007 8:53 AM

NAFLM

Read something recently on the net (can't remember where). Apparently Raimi wanted the Spider-man 2 story to be about the Lizard but Marvel insisted on Doc Ock because he was a bigger, better-known villain. (Wish I could remember the link, I'll have to see if I can find it again.)

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