Dumbledore..... is gay? by gorramgroupie

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Dumbledore..... is gay?

POSTED BY: GORRAMGROUPIE
UPDATED: Friday, November 16, 2007 21:39
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VIEWED: 6795
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Saturday, October 20, 2007 8:43 AM

Who else saw that J.K. Rowling "outed" Dumbledore as a homosexual? Thoughts, comments, insulting phrases anyone?

Edit: Homophobia not insinuated, just curious about how people feel.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 10:30 AM

CHAPTERANDVERSE

I think its pretty damn wonderful. She recieved a standing ovation when she announced it, which is pretty damn wonderful too. The series is completed but it still took a great deal of bravery on her part, and I believe that anything that spreads a little tolerance in this world is worth the backlash that will inevitably follow.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 1:25 PM

DEEPGIRL187

I don't have a problem with it, but wouldn't it have made more sense to announce this in the stories? Doing it after the fact seems kind of pointless unless she's planning on writing a continuation. And it would have been much more dramatically significant if we read about it in the course of the series.

*****************************************************

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 4:12 PM

HOPERULES

Who cares who or what Dumbledore likes to have sex with? It is just NOT important to the story. In fact, the idea of Dumbledore having sex is a little weird. It is kind of like thinking about your grandfather having sex. I am sure mine did but I don't want to think about it.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Saturday, October 20, 2007 6:12 PM

OENONE

Well, it didn't really have anything to do with the story, so that's why it probably never got mentioned. It's just one of those character traits that J.K. knows but never reveals in the story. It just so happens that fans wanted to know Dumbledore's romantic history, and him being gay is pretty directly linked to it. I personally think it's amazing... I think I always kind of knew.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:27 AM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by Oenone:
Well, it didn't really have anything to do with the story, so that's why it probably never got mentioned.

It has everything to do with the story. Dumbledore's willingness to accept Grindelwald's ideas makes so much more sense when taken in the context of a young man blinded by love. Furthermore, Dumbledore's viewpoint has always been that love is more powerful than any magic; that'd be a fairly strange viewpoint coming from someone who's never loved.

People who claim this is a sexual thing are really weird. Why is it that Lupin loving Tonks or Snape loving Lily or Hermione loving Ron or Harry loving Ginny or Bill loving Fleur - why is it that none of THOSE things are considered "sexual", but Dumbledore loving Grindelwald is? The sexual aspect is far closer to the surface in Harry/Ginny (what about that "birthday present"?) and Lupin/Tonks (he got her pregnant, sex is kind of a requirement there).

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 8:59 AM

HOPERULES

I think the book explains Dumbledore acceptance of Grindelwald's ideas as a response to Dumbledore's sister's horrible experience with muggles. You know that one that permanently damaged her and resulted in his father imprisonment and the death of both his parents. It basically destroyed his family and his dreams. That reason seems to make a lot of sense without there being any sexual or romantic attachment between the two young men.

Additionally, I believe that two people can influence each other and even love each other without wanting have sex with each other. I think that is called true friendship.

As far as the weird comment goes, I guess the "gay idea" seems strange to me because Dumbledore is a wise grandfatherly type of character whose sex or romantic life is not something I enjoy contemplating.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:07 PM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
I think the book explains Dumbledore acceptance of Grindelwald's ideas as a response to Dumbledore's sister's horrible experience with muggles. You know that one that permanently damaged her and resulted in his father imprisonment and the death of both his parents. It basically destroyed his family and his dreams. That reason seems to make a lot of sense without there being any sexual or romantic attachment between the two young men.

It doesn't make any sense to me at all. I've only read the book twice so far but the only person who gave that explanation that I can remember was Rita Skeeter, and it carried about as much weight as her usual gibberish.

Dumbledore's father was imprisoned for a crime against particular people who happened to be muggles and was unrepentant about that particular crime, but he didn't go after them because they were muggles, he went after them because they hurt his daughter - and speaking as a father I can understand how he felt. I wouldn't go after someone who hurt my kids myself but I'd surely want to. And that wouldn't make me prejudiced against any particular ethnic group that those people happened to be. It'd be revenge, pure and simple, like it was for Dumbledore's dad. So Skeeter's claim that Dumbledore "inherited his father's anti-muggle prejudice" makes no sense, because his father didn't have one.

(And it's a sad commentary on the state of the law in the wizarding community that he was convicted for muggle-killing, as opposed to what the crime really was - murder. Why does it matter whether the victim is magic or muggle?)

Dumbledore's frustration with his dreams being shattered and his family torn apart certainly is explained in the book as a factor in why finding a "kindred spirit" in Grindelwald was so appealing. And why he was so eager to find a way out of the life he found himself stuck in. But it's still a stretch to say that even a young and frustrated Dumbledore would so readily go along with the idea of subjugating muggles, given that the idea of him being prejudiced against them is such rubbish.

The protagonist falling in love with someone who promised to "take them away from all this" is a common theme in romance literature.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
Additionally, I believe that two people can influence each other and even love each other without wanting have sex with each other. I think that is called true friendship.

Yes, but it's a lot more plausible that someone hopelessly in love would talk himself into accepting ideas that run directly counter to his own moral values, and be blind to that person's faults. True friendship is more likely to be founded on a basis of starting out having similar ideas in the first place. And yes, love ought to be based on that too, but in the case of young infatuation, it all too frequently isn't.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
As far as the weird comment goes, I guess the "gay idea" seems strange to me because Dumbledore is a wise grandfatherly type of character whose sex or romantic life is not something I enjoy contemplating.

Funny how grandfathers and grandmothers seem to come in pairs so much of the time. Do you seriously think it's icky every time you see your grandparents in each other's company? Just because they're married and together and presumably still in love doesn't force you to contemplate their sex life.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:28 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by gorramgroupie:
Who else saw that J.K. Rowling "outed" Dumbledore as a homosexual? Thoughts, comments, insulting phrases anyone?

Dumbldore is gay? Stuff like this is probably why the Harry Potter stories went downhill after the first.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:51 PM

HOPERULES

Well, I guess you forgot that Dumbledore explained the story to Harry after Harry "died".

It has been my observation that, unfortunately, people can often blame an entire group for the offenses of a few individuals in that group. Even basically good people sometimes do this. It is easy for me to imagine a sad angry young man like Dumbledore falling into this trap and blaming muggles for destroying his family and his life.

No, I do not find it "icky" when I see my grandparents together. However, I did not visualize them having sex either. When society makes a big deal out of a person's or character's sexual orientation, I tend to imagine that person or character actually having sex which, in Dumbledore's case, is a place I don't want to go. I'm just being honest here, no offense intended.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 12:53 PM

PEGLEG

I think I missed something......

When was he gay?

Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 1:33 PM

SAB39

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
Well, I guess you forgot that Dumbledore explained the story to Harry after Harry "died".

I remember that he explained things, but I don't remember him saying anything that contradicted the theory that he was blinded to Grindelwald's flaws by love, or saying anything at all to confirm the theory that he was himself anti-muggle at any time.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
It has been my observation that, unfortunately, people can often blame an entire group for the offenses of a few individuals in that group. Even basically good people sometimes do this. It is easy for me to imagine a sad angry young man like Dumbledore falling into this trap and blaming muggles for destroying his family and his life.

That would be a plausible explanation, but it's no more spelled out in the book than his loving Grindelwald is. I stand by my claim that the only person in the book who actually said that is Rita (and Ron's crotchety old aunt who believed her).

So as far as I'm concerned we have one speculative theory vying against another. In favor of the "Dumbledore loved Grindelwald" theory is the fact that J.K.Rowling says that that's what happened. In favor of the other theory is Rita Skeeter saying it, and the fact that you think being gay is icky.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hoperules:
No, I do not find it "icky" when I see my grandparents together. However, I did not visualize them having sex either. When society makes a big deal out of a person's or character's sexual orientation, I tend to imagine that person or character actually having sex which, in Dumbledore's case, is a place I don't want to go. I'm just being honest here, no offense intended.

I'd venture to suggest that this is YOUR problem, not Dumbledore's or J.K.Rowling's, or even "society's". I still have some hangups about homosexuality myself (e.g., the idea of people incorrectly assuming I am gay bothers me more than it ought) but I've never had the problem of automatically thinking of people having sex just because they're gay. Who you fall in love with is no more a sexual thing if the person is the same gender than if it's the opposite gender. I like Dumbledore much more as a person who loved, than as a person who never did.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:23 PM

HOPERULES

I did not say it say it was anyone else's problem nor is it mine. It is my understanding that when someone says they are gay it means they want to have sex with other people of the same sex and when they say they are straight it means they want have sex with other people of the opposite sex. It may or may not have anything to do with love in either case. Therefore, when someone is identified as gay or straight I tend to think about that person having sex (I am not apologizing for that by the way). I think making a big deal out of who a person wants to have sex with takes the focus off their more important qualities.

Also, I think falling in love is always partially a sexual thing whether a person is straight or gay. Generally, people fall in love with people that they find sexually attractive. That is part of the fun!!!

Whether or not Dumblebore is gay, I don't think there is any question that HE LOVED. He certainly loved Harry, the students and teachers of Hogwarts, and all that was good and kind in the world Ms. Rowlings created.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 2:59 PM

HOPERULES

Oh, by the way, I originally said I found the idea of Dumbledore having sex generally was kind of weird. You first mentioned the word "icky" when discussing grandparents and sex. I NEVER SAID being gay is icky and I do NOT I think it.

May have been on the losing side, still not convinced it was the wrong one.

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Sunday, October 21, 2007 6:22 PM

SASSALICIOUS

It wasn't that surprising and it kind of made sense. I also get that it wasn't directly addressed in the books because it wasn't directly relevant.

However, I seem to recall reading that JK Rowling is going to write some sort of anthology-esque book that goes deeper into the histories of the characters . . .perhaps equivalent to the appendix in Lord of the Rings. If that's true, it was necessary to "out" Dumbledore and she did it in response to the writer/director on the most recent movie. This person was going to write something with a reference to a woman that Dumbledore had a thing with and that wouldn't jive with her universe if he's revealed as gay in the background book.

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Wisconsin sucks. I don't want to be here.

~Forsaken Forever

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 12:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

I think it's a cheap stunt by Rowling, and I'll not think of it legitimate as being part of the story. She didn't think it worth while to make it part of her series, so why even make an issue of it now ?

I think it's just another attempt to rip off Tolkien, by ripping off the Peter Jackson's movie adaptation, to be more exact. Ian McKellen is gay, and he played the lead wizard character , Gandalf. Gandalf wasn't even human, if you follow your Tolkien lore, but that's besides the point. I think Rowling is simply taking a blind stab at getting more accepted by the writing community by pulling this post facto "admission" .

If she were true to here characters and her writing ability, she'd have made Dumbledore's status known at some time during the story.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 1:12 AM

BULLET0IN0THE0BRAINPAN0SQUISH

Hmm. I have to disagree with that one. Rowling is one of the most popular writers of our time. I don't think she needs acceptance. I doubt that the writing community gives a rat's ass on whether one of her characters is gay or not. She 'outed' Dumbledore in response to someone asking about Dumbledore's love life. And like for most writers, these characters are real people for Rowling. They had pasts, histories, quirks, and probably anecdotes that don't have anything to do with Harry Potter's storyline. It just so happened that that particular characteristic had nothing to do with the story, but it doesn't make it less of a truth of Dumbledore's life. Just like the fact that Ian McKellen is gay, as AURaptor pointed out. It's something that is true, but it's beside the point.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

I don't know what I'm saying. I never know what I'm saying.... -River Tam, Serenity (2005)

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:02 AM

STORYMARK

No one has mentioned that the only reason this came up, is that when they had Rowling review the script for the 6th movie, there was refrence to a woman that Dumbledore used to "fancy". She simply corrected them, and had them change that bit in the script. It did come up at a press confrence, but not at her instigation. She didn't bring it up as the press confrence untill asked about it.

I think it's hilariouse that some are so homo-phobic that they refuse to accept the creator of the character's word on their own character....

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:27 AM

REGINAROADIE

Completely agree with you Oenone. The reason it was never brought up in the books is because ultimately, it's one thing about his character that's completely meaningless in terms of the character's place in the overall story.

Novelists do this all the time with their characters in that they write complete backstories and pretty much whole other stories of the characters of their latest novels before writing the actual novel. J.D. Salinger did it, and I'm sure J.K. did it with the HARRY POTTER books. As filled to the brim the books are with hundreds of characters and places and details that enrich the Potter universe, I'm sure there's just as much to it that was left out for various reasons. Aside from him and Grindewald, ultimately the sexual orientation of Dumbledore does little in informing us of his relationship with Harry, his role as Headmaster of Hogwarts and the only wizard who saw Voldemort for who he was and wouldn't quake in his robes when he saw him or heard his name. He's still one of the most respected and bad-ass characters in fantasy literature, so what does it matter if he preferred men over women?

Also, I think this is a great thing in terms of kids learning to be more accepting of the gay community. If one of the characters in the stories that were a huge part of their childhood turned out to be gay and not in the stereotypical way but in a strong, respectable and dignified way, then that would make them less homophobic and more accepting of people's different sexual orientation. It's on the same level as tweens watching Willow on Buffy.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 5:36 AM

MSG

I'm thinking it's great, though I agree that I'd rather not think about his sex life( kind of like thinking about your grandpa's sex life) but I think knowing the background is great...It's kind of sweet and explains a lot about why he was so easily fooled.

You can't rush science, Gibbs! You can yell at it and scream at it, but you can't rush it. "- Abby Sciuto

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Tuesday, October 23, 2007 7:35 AM

STORYMARK

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Also, I think this is a great thing in terms of kids learning to be more accepting of the gay community. If one of the characters in the stories that were a huge part of their childhood turned out to be gay and not in the stereotypical way but in a strong, respectable and dignified way, then that would make them less homophobic and more accepting of people's different sexual orientation. It's on the same level as tweens watching Willow on Buffy.

Excellent point.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 1:06 PM

ASARIAN

Dumbledore is gay?? How come none of us knowed that? I'm with those who had an "Oh God, I can't know that!" experience, though. Not because I'm homophobic, or anything. But simply because of the idea of oldies having sex evokes a mental image I dare not go to. It's even hard to accept it of your parents. I remember this funny Seinfeld bit, where he hopes to be adopted; because then maybe, maybe it's possible his parents are really just very good friends. :)

Dumbledore's orientation, however, I found of no pertinence to the story, at all. Otherwise, more power to him!

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Saturday, November 3, 2007 4:40 PM

ALLIETHORN7

Why, again, is this so gorram important?
Ooh, aah, the dudes gay. So are quite a few of my friends.
As long he didn't, I dunno, sodomize Harry or someat, I don't see the big malfunction.
Did the moon rid itself from our orbit? No.
The worlds not bloody ending because a dead gut from a book series turns out to like oter guys in that way.

-Danny

and every time I play with passion I start breaking strings,
and my voice cracks when I sing from my heart
guess that's the price I've got to pay to know that I'm alive
this melody is tearing me apart

THRICE RULES!!!!!!!!!
My Master went to the Moon in a Rocket of Flamin' Cheese!
I LIKE CHEESE!!!
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Friday, November 16, 2007 5:55 AM

MSB

Gay...Straight... who cares he's still the Dumbledore we know and love:)

____________________________________________

Nope, don't use cologne. Women I date think the smell of sawdust is sexy. That's probably why I don't... date many women.- Gibbs
You start talking about capes and tights and I'm out of here. -Ando Masahashi

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Friday, November 16, 2007 6:16 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I think the Wizard of Oz was gay too.
And maybe Don Quixote as well.

Also, Robinson Crusoe was bi-sexual, and Heidi of the Alps was transgender. What a complicated world we live in now.

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Friday, November 16, 2007 9:47 AM

GORRAMGROUPIE

Wow, some great comments here! When I first read the news, my knee jerk reaction was "It'll hurt the kids", but that was quickly squelched. We try to teach our kids to be accepting and tolerating of all people, regardless of what might make them "different". So I agree with those who say it doesn't matter, because in the end it doesn't. The story always was about Harry, and his life. Dumbledore was a mentor, friend and that's what matters to Harry.

BTW, for the other thread about most heart wrenching/amazing sci-fi moment, when I read Dumbledore's death, I was stunned. In the end, he was a great man(even fictional) and that is what's important.

"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain

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Friday, November 16, 2007 9:53 AM

MSB

Dumbledore's death got to me...but it was Dobby dying that all but broke my heart... poor Dobby

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Friday, November 16, 2007 10:13 AM

GORRAMGROUPIE

That hit my 2 kids who can read hard too. My little girl actually cried a bit. I have to admit it hit me hard too. Choking up a bit right now.
Gotta go..sniff.

"It's no wonder that truth is stranger than fiction. Fiction has to make sense." - Mark Twain

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Friday, November 16, 2007 3:53 PM

TRAVELER

I don't think Don Quixote was gay. He had his eye on that serving wench.

In truth, being gay has no bearing on the story of Harry Potter. I am surprised it ever came up.

Why not make Harry gay?

It just doesn't matter.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, November 16, 2007 3:53 PM

TRAVELER

The cursed double click.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, November 16, 2007 4:01 PM

RALLEM

Why is this being addressed here?

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Friday, November 16, 2007 4:06 PM

TRAVELER

I guess because it is fantasy it falls under "other science fiction series".

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, November 16, 2007 6:09 PM

RALLEM

I wouldn't have thought so. I usually post at the allcoolinthegang.com boards for Harry Potter related topics.

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Friday, November 16, 2007 6:23 PM

TRAVELER

I think the whole gay thing just took everyone by surprise. So it reached us. I remember when fantasy and science fiction were on different shelves in the library. But they both have crossed in so many places that they finally melted together. I guess it was bound to happen.

I have some gay friends and they don't even know it happened. I never hear any of them discuss it. I don't think many of them are into Harry Potter.

Maybe it was a sales ploy to get gays to buy the books.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Friday, November 16, 2007 7:35 PM

RALLEM

It's not a gay thing that I don't understand, because this topic has been covered at the hp posts pretty extensively. What I don't understand is HP being discussed here at all. That topic has a wealth of its own dedicated discussion boards and in no way shape or form can I see how it is a sci-fi topic.

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Friday, November 16, 2007 9:39 PM

TRAVELER

Hello Rallem:

I have been with this sight for about one year, maybe more, and we are free to discuss any topic. That is why we have so many different message boards. Long before I got here it was established that you may discuss any topic as long as it is not offensive or insulting.

Someone once asked what we thought was the ugliest spaceship in a TV series or movie. You should have seen the pictures that were posted. Some special effects people really created some sorry looking interstellar vehicles. It was fun seeing them. And that is the point. We are here to have fun and enjoy each others company. We bring up different topics and see if others are interested in it. If they are, then the the thread starts to get lively. There are times we get off track and the topic changes in midstream. No one takes to much offense as long as everyone is enjoying themselves.

I have discussed the dances played at weddings. What that has to do with Firefly is beyond me. But a lot of people responded and all had a good time exploring the wonders of wedding dances.

That is why there are so many different message boards, so we can know where to find the type of discussions we want to be involved in.

I would have been more surprised if no one had mentioned this Harry Potter issue. It is a series of books based on fantasy and that falls into the "other science fiction catagory", which is this message board.

We once discussed who should be the next Wonder Woman. You should have seen the pictures in that thread. A lot of lovely women were displayed so we could vote for our favorites. No one liked my choices. I have an aquired taste.

So it never surprises me what topics I will come across here. Some are very entertaining.

If you want to discuss something else you are always free to start your own thread.

I like your bouncing ball avatar. It reminds me of my life. Starts out smooth and then SPLAT.

http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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