Golden Compass Controversy by bluesuncompanyman

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Golden Compass Controversy

POSTED BY: BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN
UPDATED: Tuesday, December 11, 2007 18:16
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Monday, December 10, 2007 1:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Easter Eggs are part of an Easter tradition - a Christian Holiday.

Unless you believe that the early Western Christians exploited the well-established celebrations of the winter solstice and vernal equinox by linking them with Christian events. Certainly there are a lot of pagan traditions woven into the western versions of Christmas and Easter.

I think that the promise of new life in the darkest days of winter and its arrival in the spring are well worth celebrating for their own sake - and understanding that this is all down to the Earth's orbit and the angle of incidence of solar radiation should make it more wonderful, not less - no need to attach anthropomorphic meanings to them.

Quote:
(On definition of propaganda):
I don’t. Most generally, I would define it as “ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one’s cause or to damage an opposing cause.”

I prefer my definition - it helps you to spot propaganda even when you happen agree with it.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 4:52 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Easter Eggs are part of an Easter tradition - a Christian Holiday.
Unless you believe that the early Western Christians exploited the well-established celebrations of the winter solstice and vernal equinox by linking them with Christian events. Certainly there are a lot of pagan traditions woven into the western versions of Christmas and Easter.

Just because Easter may once have been a pagan holiday, doesn’t mean it is now. Today, Easter is unqualifiedly a Christian Holiday. Christians are not hiding their beliefs behind it.

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
I don’t. Most generally, I would define it as “ideas, facts, or allegations spread deliberately to further one’s cause or to damage an opposing cause.”
I prefer my definition - it helps you to spot propaganda even when you happen agree with it.

I don‘t think it helps to spot it any better then the definition above. In fact, it may help to produce false positives. For instance, if someone voices a preference for a certain idea, you would then argue that they are spreading propaganda because their preference produces a bias. When it reality it is just as likely, and perhaps more likely, that they are completely uninterested in spreading any ideas at all. Just because someone has a lack of perspective or a preference on an issue doesn’t mean they are propagandizing.

And given the way the author chooses to define his books, it’s entirely possible that the books are atheist propaganda. I’ll give you that much. I’ve not read the books, so I can’t say with any personal conviction, but most of those who have read the books have told me that they could be defined as anti-religious. With the author coming out to explain that he is intentionally trying to undermine Christianity, this very likely could constitute true atheist propaganda. Frankly, however, even though this may meet the general definition of propaganda, I think the author may be deluding himself, but parents should still take into considering the authors stated intent before they chose to pass these stories onto their children.

Nihil est incertius vulgo, nihil obscurius voluntate hominum, nihil fallacius ratione tota comitiorum.

Nothing is more unpredictable than the mob, nothing more obscure than public opinion, nothing more deceptive than the whole political system.

-- Cicero

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Monday, December 10, 2007 6:48 AM

LETOV

I would just like to say that the majority of the hub-bub about this book and movie directly relates to a beautiful concept I first read about this weekend when reading up on some of my favorite sci-fi authors, specifically Greg Benford.

Benford's law of controversy
"Passion is inversely proportional to the amount of real information available."

I haven't read these books or seen the movie yet, and I don't plan to see the movie before I've read the book, but I'm quite confident that the majority of the people complaining about the books/movie haven't either. I've spoken with a few of my co-workers about this movie, and all of them either have heard nothing of the controversy and just thought it looked fun, or had been forwarded some e-mail talking about how its evil and they shouldn't see it. Two of them specifically have kids and have been told by their wives that they shouldn't see the movie or take their kids to see it, for no other reason than what they heard from some church group or e-mail, coming from people who haven't seen the movie or read the book.

- Leto_V

"Well, my days of not taking you
seriously are certainly coming to
a middle." - Mal

"What the hell is an aluminum falcon?!?" - Palpatine - Robot Chicken

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Monday, December 10, 2007 7:46 AM

MUDKICKER

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Yeah, it was a little verbose. I was on a role. But you got the point.

LMAO. Yeah, I did. I just love how you handled it. Like Chrisall said, keep on with the verbose. I'll just take a Vicodin before I start reading. LOL!

____________________________________

"We are not gonna die. You know why? Because we are so...very...pretty. We are just too pretty for God to let us die."

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Monday, December 10, 2007 8:04 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
parents should still take into considering the authors stated intent before they chose to pass these stories onto their children.

I've tried to expose my son to many religions without (hopefully too much) prejudice.
I'm clear with him about his mother's and my beliefs, but I stress that they are just that, beliefs. On his own he's come to embrace the idea of The Force, from the Star Wars movies, and combined it with some Native American takes on it, calling Mother Earth the keeper of the spirit (Force). The movie influence is obvious, but the Mother Earth thing he got from a children's book.

A Jedi in the making Chrisisall

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Monday, December 10, 2007 12:36 PM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by LetoV:
I haven't read these books or seen the movie yet, and I don't plan to see the movie before I've read the book, but I'm quite confident that the majority of the people complaining about the books/movie haven't either.

Well, I have read the books (several times) and I'm certain that some people with inflexible religious views would be upset by them.

While in the first book the "Magesterum" can be explained away as an "alternate church-led government gone bad" (which sounds like the line the film has taken). However, the later books do introduce more biblical characters and concepts, and several elements of the plot revolve around challenges to some of the fundamental judeo-christian beliefs. They also bring "our" world into the fray.

I'm not sure how they can bowdlerize books 2 and 3 for film without ruining them.

However, most of the ire is directed against ideas from the Old Testament, Revelations and the Apocrypha - Christ isn't really discussed (although the concept of eternal life is questioned).

If you just support "Christian values", don't have a lot of time for fire and brimstone and (like me) suspect that, after a few aeons of eternal life you'd probably get thrown out anyway for trying to play "Stairway to Heaven" on the harp - then you may not have a problem. In fact, the story is pretty strong on love, compassion, loyalty and self-sacrifice for the good of others (turning the other cheek... not so much, but no worse than any other adventure story).

I hope everybody and their kids will read the books (from which I suspect the later films will diverge) and at least think about the issues raised. However - if you have strongly held beliefs, especially if these extend beyond the Sermon on the Mount, the later books will challenge them.

The books are quite dark, violent and disturbing in other ways, too - so if your kids needed grief counselling after

died in Harry Potter, maybe wait a year or two. Certainly the clips I've seen of the big polar bear fight from the film are completely tame and bloodless c.f. the books.

Its worth remembering where we are - a fan site for an anti-authoritarian SF show with whores and criminals as heroes. Quite a literate and thoughtful bunch, too, going by some of the discussions here. I suspect that those here with religious views will have given considerable thought to what is and is not worthy of their belief, and can make that essential distinction between literal truth and spiritual truth.

Not everybody enjoys the freedom of thought, encouragement and access to diverse knowledge needed to assemble your own enlightened belief system - many are stuck with the "package deal" with all the dark-ages surplus still intact. This can be very comforting if you like simple answers to complex moral questions - and any challenge to that security can be quite threatening.

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Monday, December 10, 2007 5:53 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
If you just support "Christian values", don't have a lot of time for fire and brimstone and (like me) suspect that, after a few aeons of eternal life you'd probably get thrown out anyway for trying to play "Stairway to Heaven" on the harp - then you may not have a problem. In fact, the story is pretty strong on love, compassion, loyalty and self-sacrifice for the good of others (turning the other cheek... not so much, but no worse than any other adventure story).

Personally, I’ve always believed the God is a Zeppelin fan, so I’m not sure that would work for you. You might try singing “Mandy,” because I’m pretty sure God hates Barry Manilow.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 12:33 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Personally, I’ve always believed the God is a Zeppelin fan, so I’m not sure that would work for you.

I thought she was more into Alanis Morissette. Anyway, I didn't say that I'd be playing it well...

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 1:05 AM

CITIZEN

Quote:
Originally posted by ImNotHere:
I thought she was more into Alanis Morissette. Anyway, I didn't say that I'd be playing it well...

God is Alanis Morissette, I saw it in a film.

More insane ramblings by the people who brought you beeeer milkshakes!
No one can see their reflection in running water. It is only in still water that we can see.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 4:22 AM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Atlantis Morselette? No. That’s just dogma.

As it turns out, god really is an old guy in a robe with a white beard, but he just wants to rock.

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:41 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Finn mac Cumhal:
Atlantis Morselette? No. That’s just dogma.

As it turns out, god really is an old guy in a robe with a white beard, but he just wants to rock.

Ah...sort of a post-retirement Jack Black...?

It was like that when we got here!

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Tuesday, December 11, 2007 6:16 PM

FINN MAC CUMHAL

Quote:
Originally posted by WASHnwear:
Ah...sort of a post-retirement Jack Black...?

Exactly.

"In the end of time
There was a man who knew the road
And the writing, was written on the stone

"In the ancient time
An artist led the way
But no one, seemed to understand

"In his heart he knew
The artist must be true
But the legend, of the rent was way past due!!!

::head bang:: ::head bang::

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