Alien IV by wytchcroft

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Alien IV

POSTED BY: WYTCHCROFT
UPDATED: Wednesday, January 23, 2008 23:22
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VIEWED: 2712
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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:54 AM

Recently watched this again – always a better film than I remember!

I know the wrath of Joss has been visited upon it, - “shot wrong, cast wrong, scored wrong and the director made wrong choices”, and something along the lines of “It’s a text book of how NOT to make a great Alien film!” – and if the aim was firefly then he’s right… but the SEEDS of something ‘versal are definitely there…
Sure the crew are a little lacking in, uh – charisma (but try AVP!!) and the monsters look a little off (unlike in AVP where they are righteous, annoyingly enuff!)… but there’s plenty to enjoy (apart from that company sergeant and his over acting – his eyes pop out larger than John Hurt’s stomach – sidebar, did Joss write the great halloween Alien gag in Roseanne? Ah, Darlene…).

And the Serenity Found essay on the ‘Weaponised Women of the Whedonverse’
( adopts Enid Coleslaw voice – “Alliteration –it’s a riot”) is right to point out the connections… I was struck by, Ripley “But why do you care?” Call “I was programmed to.” Which is something that maybe Doll House will pick up. Both women have had their heads messed with ala River.

Also – it may not be scary but it is tense – in fact hyping the Alien sequels on the ‘terror’ is pretty dim. Alien 3 aint scary either – it’s still a fascinating (yeh yeh flawed ok ok) film. Is Starship Troopers scary? Nope, but it got marketed right compared to Alien 3 and 4.

I love the look and feel of The Betty and the big company vessel too – it does feel like we’re in space - and the creepy scientists.

Not all the gags work, Sigorney’s “so who I have to f---” line falls flatter than skylab – but there are also some great one-liners (in the joss manner) – and nice moments, Winona and the boxing gloves for one.

What do other firefly fans make of Alien IV???

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:52 AM

ASARIAN

Ah yes, sweet android girl Annalee Call; makes an impression, doesn't she? :) Winona, with those gorgeous eyes!

I liked Alien 4 a lot better than its predecessor. And The Betty and crew really have something 'Verse-y about them. I truly believe Joss was, in part, inspired by Alien 4 for when he had Firefly on the drawing board. Especially their 'Jayne' character, Johner. He has some very Jayne-y lines:

"Don't push me, little Call. You hang with us for a while, you'll find out I am not the man with whom to fuck!"

"Must be a chick thing."

"I thought synthetics were supposed to be all logical and shit. You're just a big ol' psycho girl!"

In earnest, I wouldn't have minded seeing a show called The Betty or some such, with just their crew on it. It's got everything: space, a stunningly beautiful girl (Winona Ryder), outlaws, an Alliance of sorts; and, last but not least, a raggedy vessel to traverse the, erm, 'Verse. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:56 AM

LWAVES

I don't think it's as bad as most people seem to say it is. There is a lot wrong as you stated (same as with Alien 3) but there are some good things about it too. I think Joss's comments are right from his point of view because it's personal to him, he did the writing and spent however long working with it, and what appears on screen is obviously not what he intended. If someone else had written it they may feel the same way, but we have the advantage of looking at it from an outside perspective. There's nothing personally invested in the film from us.

I haven't actually seem this film since finding out the Joss wrote it so I can't comment on any telltale signs from him but when I do watch it again I will be looking out for them.

One thing I did hate with a venom was the final creature hybrid thing. It was just stupid and wrong.
One of the big draws for me in watching Alien 3, Resurrection, AVP and eventually AVP-R is the Alien itself. The creature is one of the best ever conceived and is a major draw for me watching these sequels more than the plot or actors etc. I like how even now they aren't really explained, we don't know where they are from or that much beyond how vicious they are and how they evolve.
I have a similar thing with the Hellraiser movies. Most of them are complete crap but the Lament Configuration keeps me interested in finding out more about it.

So I like it just because it has the Alien in it.

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 2:26 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:

Recently watched this again – always a better film than I remember!

I know the wrath of Joss has been visited upon it, - “shot wrong, cast wrong, scored wrong and the director made wrong choices”, and something along the lines of “It’s a text book of how NOT to make a great Alien film!” – and if the aim was firefly then he’s right… but the SEEDS of something ‘versal are definitely there…
Sure the crew are a little lacking in, uh – charisma (but try AVP!!) and the monsters look a little off (unlike in AVP where they are righteous, annoyingly enuff!)… but there’s plenty to enjoy (apart from that company sergeant and his over acting – his eyes pop out larger than John Hurt’s stomach – sidebar, did Joss write the great halloween Alien gag in Roseanne? Ah, Darlene…).

And the Serenity Found essay on the ‘Weaponised Women of the Whedonverse’
( adopts Enid Coleslaw voice – “Alliteration –it’s a riot”) is right to point out the connections… I was struck by, Ripley “But why do you care?” Call “I was programmed to.” Which is something that maybe Doll House will pick up. Both women have had their heads messed with ala River.

Also – it may not be scary but it is tense – in fact hyping the Alien sequels on the ‘terror’ is pretty dim. Alien 3 aint scary either – it’s still a fascinating (yeh yeh flawed ok ok) film. Is Starship Troopers scary? Nope, but it got marketed right compared to Alien 3 and 4.

I love the look and feel of The Betty and the big company vessel too – it does feel like we’re in space - and the creepy scientists.

Not all the gags work, Sigorney’s “so who I have to f---” line falls flatter than skylab – but there are also some great one-liners (in the joss manner) – and nice moments, Winona and the boxing gloves for one.

What do other firefly fans make of Alien IV???

I liked Alien Resurrection quite a lot. It made sense to me that some rogue military general would somehow eventually get involved with the Alien "project". There are many great moments in the film, and even Winona Ryder did a decent job of it.
As for Alien 3, I almost like this movie more than any other. It's dark, gritty, and very creepy. The inmates on the planet, Fiorini 4 (I think?)were terrific. Murderers, rapists, and other assorted misfits of society left almost alone to fend for themselves on a penal colony planet was a great backdrop to the continuation of the story from Aliens. The "sermon" that Charles Dutton gives over the death of Newt is very powerful, and for me it's probably the highlight of the movie. It's amazingly beautiful & poetic, and coming from him it's quite unexpected. I thought all the inmates as well as the doctor and the warden did an admirable job of acting, and the whole thing just looks and feels very real.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:25 AM

GWEK

I like to think of A:R was the rough draft for FIREFLY. Most of the important elements of the crew are there, just sort of mixed up:

Elgyn is a Mal who never got his faith back, and Johner is an R-rated version of Jayne. Christie is a mix of Zoe (the compotent, military, and dare-I-say dark-skinned second) and Jayne (woman's name on a big, scary guy). Hillard is a proto-Wash (but female, not nearly as funny, and with the captain rather than the second). Call is a mix of River (dark-haired girl with a secret) and Kaylee (cute mechanic... Heck Annalee Call, Kaylee Frye, even the names are similar).

Only Vriess (the wheelcheer-bound mechanic) doesn't have an analog in the Serenity crew, although his relationship with Johner echoes the Jayne-Wash dynamic a bit, and as the "elder statesman", one could argue a bit of a Book vibe (bit of a strech, I know).

It may be worth noting that the original draft included two other members (Rain and St. Just), bringing the crew size pretty close to what we've come to expect. Add in Ripley, and you've got nine (although still no Companion or preacher!).

Although the tone of the crew of the Betty is a bit darker than Firefly's, remember that Joss has stated that he WANTED Firefly to be even grimmer and grittier, but that Fox disagreed.

It's my understanding that when dreaming up the idea of FIREFLY, Joss first came up with the world, then populated it with characters. I suspect it went something like this:

"Okay, I've got this great idea for a sci fi Western setting. Now I just need some characters.... Hey, I know what I'll do. I'll take the crew of the Betty and change 'em just enough that most folks won't notice it at first! Oh, wait, I don't want an android in my world so what can I do instead... Hmmmm. Psychic, maybe?"?

Nothing wrong with it. Just saying...

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 4:33 AM

CHRISISALL

I saw A4 in the theatre, and initially, I quite liked it- still may buy it on DVD sometime- it had a kind of poetry to it.

But it was no 'Aliens' Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:12 AM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Ok, I did actually like Alien 4. It had good elements but was executed poorly. I also agree with the earlier comment about the hybrid being wrong. As with much of that film, cool idea, crappy reality. I know a lot of folks don't like this one but for me, the worst of the franchise have to be Alien 3 and AVP. I just can't stand either of them.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 8:25 AM

SICKDUDE

[threadjack]Aw, everybody putting down Alien 3. Personally, I like that one. The way I see it, each of them is about something different. Alien is about terror. Aliens is about action and fighting back. Alien 3 is about despair and finding hope. And Alien 4 is about... okay, I haven't got that one figured out yet. Nonetheless, from the point of view of Alien 3 being about the urge to give up when it's hopeless, I think it's an awesome movie.... [/threadjack]

"Your gratuitous jello awaits." - Dr. Helen Magnus, Sanctuary

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 9:31 AM

REGINAROADIE

Saw it once, wish I didn't. It was just awful from beginning to end. Completely unnecessary, the new alien creature at the end was just pathetic and it didn't seem like a primer for FIREFLY. More like a last ditch attempt to a franchise whose last good installment was ten years prior, and I refuse to be in denial. A piece of shit is a piece of shit, no matter how well you try to disguise it.

One thing I get ticked off is when I read somewhere that whatever 90's blockbuster Joss did a re-write on that it was because of his input that the movie had any genius. I think that's stretching it to the extreme. Like TOY STORY. TOY STORY has and alway be the brainchild of John Lasseter, Andrew Stanton, Pete Doctor, Joe Ranft and all the other people at Pixar. Joss was only brought in for re-write work, and Lassetter (realizing how monumental of a film they were doing) decided to give him credit for his work. Great move by a great man.

But I like to give him credit where credit's due with the shows he's created where he was in charge.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:04 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

It isn't great but it isn't half as bad as was made out on its release. There are some great set pieces:

1. The underwater chase
2. The atmosphere in the first 20 minutes.
3. Any scene with Ron Perlman trying to flirt with Ripley
4. The clone scene
5. The Crew of the Betty.

It's downfalls are:
1. The Hybrid Alien at the end. That is just terrible. (as has been stated)
2. Winona Ryder's character.
3. Lack of urgency between characters.
4. Aliens just aren't menacing enough.

What is a shame about the Alien sequels are that they just can't live up to the impact of the first one. Sure you want another sequel, because the Alien creature is such a fascinating monster, but ultimately the more you see of it the more it becomes a man in a rubber suit.

Remember the days when Alien sequels would take years before being given the green light? Rumours would fly about, endings needing to be altered due to similarities with other summer block busters, or a multitude of writers would struggle with the script rewrites, resulting in rifts and backstabbing through the sheets of variety, directors would crumble at the wayside over 'creative differences' with the studios. All mouth-watering stuff to the fan, as the idea that quality was to be adhered to, and classic was a pre-requisite....

....Hardly though eh? Look at us now: Alien vs Predator, and Alien vs Predator Requiem, both toned down for the target audience! Neither concept proving much of a draw for Hollywoods premier directors. So we have 'Director for hire' Paul w.s. Anderson ruining AvsP and two brothers who run a special effects shop having a crack at a low budget, low concpet follow-up....

....We're a wisker away from a camp colourful alien vs predator MUSICAL!!!!!

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:57 AM

REGINAROADIE

I know. It really pained me to see AVP:R because I was under the impression that it was actually going to improve on the first one and to be something worthwhile. But really, the last good movie any of them were in was ALIENS, which was twenty years ago.

Does anyone remember the absolute suspense and terror of Ripley in the escape pod standing in front of an alien with only a bra and panties on, along with just the overall sense of dread, suspense and terror that the first one made into an art form? Or how the sequel continued that, but threw in a ton of action, as well as the intense reaction of seeing all the eggs together and the alien queen. And of course the moment that even Harry Potter payed homage to ("Get away from her, YOU BITCH!!!" Whatever they do with the final film, they HAVE to pay homage to that in the film.).

It's a shame to think that the xenomorphs have been downgraded to easily disposable villains that even Garrity from RESCUE ME could take down.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:22 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Ahh. Yes I remember. I watched it but the other day. Great flick!

On the concept of Alien vs Predator can I just run something by you all, because whenever I talk to friends about an idea I have for AvsP, they kinda look at me funny...

But

I always liked the idea of an Alien vs Predator film where there are no human characters. I realise it would be a tough write, but given the subject matter it wouldn't matter that much. Besides with cinema you can convey dialouge without actually having it. Regardless it would be redundant with this premise. So what do you think? Would anyone be up for seeing an AvsP with no humans in it?

.... Just wondering

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:49 AM

OUT2THEBLACK

This is why I love this place !

All the smartest folk in the 'Verse are in here !

Great thread , wytchcroft...I love the way that

you write...Which means I love the way that you

think...

I remember enjoying this film at the theater and

thinking ,

" Now that was easily the best film of

the Aliens franchise..."

Never understood all the hostility about it ,

myself...

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:50 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
Would anyone be up for seeing an AvsP with no humans in it?

High concept- I'd TOTALLY pay to see that! It would be told from the Predator perspective, I'd imagine, as they are way closer to us in sensibility than the Aliens, but I could so see it!

Subtitle-lovin' Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 12:37 PM

REGINAROADIE

Absolutely. I think that by getting rid of the human characters, which are always underwritten and poorly acted anyways, and just do in the style of say NO COUNTRY FOR OLD MEN, where there's very little dialogue, if at all, and just a pervading sense of terror and dread, that it would blow everything out of the water.

I remember Kevin Smith on one of his SModcasts talking about how he and Malcolm Ingram when they were in Vancouver saw TRANSFORMERS and were really let down by it because they had all the human characters and bad plots getting in the way of what they really wanted to see, which is two giants robots beating the shit out of each other. And that his ideal version of TRANSFORMERS is just two of the Transformers rolling onto the screen, they transform, fight, and that's it. Movie itself would only be half an hour or so long, but you'd get straight to the point. And I think that would be a revolutionary idea for genre movies. Get rid the characters that no one cares about anyways, and just focus on what the people actually want.

**************************************************
"And it starts with a sentence that might last a lifetime, or it all might just go down in flames. If I let you know me, then why would you want me? Each day I don't is a shame. Each day I don't is a great shame."

Loudon Wainwright III - "Strange Weirdos" off the "Knocked Up" soundtrack

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:16 PM

LWAVES

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

But it was no 'Aliens' Chrisisall

What can compare to Aliens? Even Alien is a different style of film.
Each genre has films that are at the top. The Godfather or Goodfellas for mob movies. Shawshank for prison drama. Whatever it may be.
Aliens is top in the scifi action/humans vs creatures category. I can't think of anything similar that comes close.
And before anyone mentions the BDM I don't count that as the same genre coz there's no aliens.

Yeah I would definitely like to see AVP without the humans. And the xenomorphs should kick the predators ass.
I like the predator but the xenomorphs are cooler.

I'd even settle for a full out Aliens/Earth war style film like was rumoured for Alien 3, but Starship Troopers kind of did that years ago. I'm sure they could still do something with it though.

"Game Over Man"

"I don't believe in suicide, but if you'd like to try it it might cheer me up to watch."

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:22 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
High concept- I'd TOTALLY pay to see that! It would be told from the Predator perspective, I'd imagine, as they are way closer to us in sensibility than the Aliens, but I could so see it!

Cheers Big 'C' - maybe I should write you a treatment/synopsis

Ok EDIT: I just spent half an hour coming up with a really rough synopsis/treatment.

Anybody want to read it? I can email it as a word doc.....

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:24 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by lwaves:

What can compare to Aliens?

Not much- it's in my top 20 FILMS (regardless of genre) of all time, along with the BDM....

Really an all right guy Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 1:26 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Cheers Big 'C' - maybe I should write you a treatment/synopsis

Send it to Joss- maybe he could get it to the right peeps!

Get it done Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 5:09 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

It's downfalls are:

2. Winona Ryder's character.

Hey now. :) There was nothing wrong with Winona's sweet rendition of Call -- except perhaps that she was a mite too pretty to be flyin' with such briggands.

But in earnest, I think her character was outstandig, and she acted very well. And she had great lines, too:

CALL
Don't make me do this.

RIPLEY
Don't make me make you.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 10:54 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Oh Asarian.... Might I just apologise in advance for what I am about to say.....

Maybe it's me, but I have issues with Winona's acting :(

Sorry. She kinda spoiled Edward Scissorhands....

On the plus side she was ok in LUCAS :D

Sorry

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Wednesday, January 23, 2008 11:22 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Oh Asarian.... Might I just apologise in advance for what I am about to say.....

Maybe it's me, but I have issues with Winona's acting :(

Sorry. She kinda spoiled Edward Scissorhands....

On the plus side she was ok in LUCAS :D

Sorry

No worries; nobody's fighting; war's long over; we're all just folks now. :)

I'm not a superfan of Winona or anything (or am I?); but, in earnest, I thought she did very well in Alien IV. Her Call character was tender, but not bittersweet. And very humane. I'm liking that: more human than her human crew. Naturally she can sell it well with those beautiful, wide eyes; but I found her whole acting and personage to be very agreeable. And her interaction with their 'Jayne' was constantly hilarious. :)

The whole hybrid alien itself, eh, it weren't all that good. But Alien IV really was assuredly a step up from the third installment. I still can't forgive em for killing off Newt so brutally. Little Miss "Affirmative" really was quite the star in Aliens.

--
"They mostly come at night... Mostly." -- Newt

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