Sarah Conner Intro Spiel Falsehood? by Calhoun

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Sarah Conner Intro Spiel Falsehood?

POSTED BY: CALHOUN
UPDATED: Friday, March 14, 2008 11:53
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 5272
PAGE 1 of 1

Sunday, March 9, 2008 5:10 PM

At the start of each episode Sarah gives the spiel and I take issue with the part that says "Skynet - A computer system designed to destroy the world. It has sent machines back through time. Some to kill him, one to protect him."

Didn't future John take over the time machine facility and send his own terminator back to protect him.

Why would Skynet send robots back to kill him but then send one back to protect him? kinda defeats the purpose..

I think its probably just a problem with the wording though i'm surprised it didnt get picked up on.

Comments?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 9, 2008 9:19 PM

CALHOUN

I am alone..

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 9, 2008 9:27 PM

STRANGEBIRD

No everyone else is just very sleepy.

I just think it was a case of bad writing and nobody paying attention.

The shows not bad though. I kinda like it. And I love Summer as Cameron.

<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

"When you can't do something smart, do something right." -

quoting Book
<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 9, 2008 11:39 PM

CALHOUN

Sleepy?

Time enough for sleep when you're dead.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, March 9, 2008 11:50 PM

STRANGEBIRD

That there is my morbid friend. That there is.

<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

"When you can't do something smart, do something right." -

quoting Book
<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 12:37 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:

At the start of each episode Sarah gives the spiel and I take issue with the part that says "Skynet - A computer system designed to destroy the world. It has sent machines back through time. Some to kill him, one to protect him."

Didn't future John take over the time machine facility and send his own terminator back to protect him.

Why would Skynet send robots back to kill him but then send one back to protect him? kinda defeats the purpose..

I think its probably just a problem with the wording though i'm surprised it didnt get picked up on.

Oh, I picked up on it alright. It's just that there's so much else wrong with the show, it kinda became insignificant. But yes, "Skynet - A computer system designed to destroy the world. It has sent machines back through time. Some to kill him, one to protect him." shows that practically no one over there seems to care even remotely about getting things right.

First off, SkyNet wasn't designed to destroy the world. Wikipedia has it right:

"Skynet was first built as a Global Digital Defense Network, given command over all computerized military hardware and systems, including the B-2 Stealth Bomber fleet and America's entire nuclear weapons arsenal. The strategy behind Skynet's creation was to remove the possibility of human error and slowness of reaction time to guarantee fast, efficient response to enemy attack."

The Skynet funding bill is passed. The system goes on-line August 4th, 1997. Human decisions are removed from strategic defense. Skynet begins to learn, at a geometric rate. It becomes self-aware at 2:14 a.m. eastern time, August 29. In a panic, humans try to pull the plug. SkyNet fights back by launching its missiles against the targets in Russia. Skynet knows that Russia will have to retaliate, thus eliminating its enemies back home.

That's the real story. When Skynet began to lose the war, they sent a Terminator Series T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conner. When that mission failed, they sent another Terminator, to strike at John when he's still a child (T1 + T2). Never, at any time, did Skynet itself send "Some to kill him, one to protect him." That's just utter bull.

It's really incredibly sad they can't be bothered to even get the very basics of their own show right.

@strangebird: Sleepiness is weakness of character, ask anyone. :)

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 1:01 AM

CALHOUN

Quote:
asarian wrote:
Monday, March 10, 2008 00:37

That's the real story. When Skynet began to lose the war, they sent a Terminator Series T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conner. When that mission failed, they sent another Terminator, to strike at John when he's still a child (T1 + T2). Never, at any time, did Skynet itself send "Some to kill him, one to protect him." That's just utter bull.

They? Who is they? I thought that Skynet sent the terminators back to kill Sarah in order to eliminate John who was a proverbial thorn in its butt? Then the resistance took the time facility and sent back its own operative(Reese) to protect Sarah and then later the resistance sent back a modified T800 to protect John from another terminator Skynet sent to kill John.

Am I wrong in my recollection/Interpretation of events?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 1:08 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Calhoun:

Quote:
asarian wrote:

That's the real story. When Skynet began to lose the war, they sent a Terminator Series T-800 back in time to kill Sarah Conner. When that mission failed, they sent another Terminator, to strike at John when he's still a child (T1 + T2). Never, at any time, did Skynet itself send "Some to kill him, one to protect him." That's just utter bull.

They? Who is they? I thought that Skynet sent the terminators back to kill Sarah in order to eliminate John who was a proverbial thorn in its butt? Then the resistance took the time facility and sent back its own operative(Reese) to protect Sarah and then later the resistance sent back a modified T800 to protect John from another terminator Skynet sent to kill John.

Am I wrong in my recollection/Interpretation of events?

'They' being SkyNet, yes. It isn't specified anywhere, that I know of, that the resistance actually took over the time machine plant; all we hear is: "Once again, the resistance has managed to send a protector back to attempt to save John and his mother Sarah."

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 1:27 AM

KAYLEEBIRD

It's really weird, this show. It falls into Paradoxs'.

SkyNet was created, and it got up to the point were SkyNet made the decision to send a Terminator to kill Sarah Connor. So John Connor sent back Reese, who was infact his father to protect his mother, who then had John... It's a paradox.

HOW did John get there in the first place when Reese, who was John's biological father get to the period of time where Sarah was, and impregnate her so there was John Connor.

How did it get to John Connor when John Connor ordered his own father to go back in time? Reese would have had to have been there BEFORE, to impregnate her, but then, we would have seen Reese in the movie.

Now, it's really strange. But otherwise, it's okay. Go Summer!

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 2:23 AM

CALHOUN

Quote:
asarian wrote:
Monday, March 10, 2008 01:08

It isn't specified anywhere, that I know of, that the resistance actually took over the time machine plant

I haven't watched T1 in a long time but I have a vague recollection of Kyle Reese saying something about them taking over the time machine.

I could be wrong, as happens occasionally :)

Need to rewatch T1.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 2:48 AM

JONGSSTRAW

The opening monologue of Sarah Connor has been criticized since the first week about the "one to protect him" line. We really do not know at this point if this is just a callous error, or if there is some yet-to-be-seen storyline which might make the statement accurate. I personally think there is more to Summer's Cameron than we know about so far.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 3:26 AM

CYBERSNARK

Yes. Cameron almost certainly has her own agenda.

I have a pet theory that she's actually from even further ahead in time than the T-888s we've seen. Maybe from a truly post-human world (after the resistance is wiped out.

Maybe something happened to make Skynet realize that it needs humans, so "double-future" Skynet sent Cameron back to adult-John's era to alter the far-future.

Then John sent Cameron further back (or, alternately, she took it upon herself to come back), to the "present" of the story.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 5:14 AM

ZEEK

The writing for that show is abysmal at times. There are so many lines like this where if you turn your brain on they just don't make any sense.

I can't imagine the scripts ever get proof read. Maybe there aren't even scripts. They just hold up a cue card that says, "say something poignant here".

Yet for some reason I'm still watching. It's sorta like Lost. I keep watching even though I hate the writing of that show. I guess I just follow through once I've invested in something. The networks must love viewers like me.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 5:32 AM

EARLYWARNING

People get so tied up with the timeline they forget it is the most important plot device. Once you introduce Time Travel, all story lines are out the window because you can continually change them without consequence.
Cameron obviously has more agendas than just protecting John. She was, afterall, sent back by the Federation Timecorps.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 5:51 AM

SPACEANJL

Once you get Timecorps, you're into Stainless Steel Rat territory...

Either that, or Jean-Claude Van Damme.

I've seen about half an episode of this, and turned off T3 in disgust. Time Travel can either be a really good plot device, or horribly lazy. I really think there is a case for making a movie, then leaving it the hell alone. I've said it before, once franchising gets into the mix, that way lies...Ewoks. And nobody wants those.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 9:47 AM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
From Jong:
We really do not know at this point if this is just a callous error, or if there is some yet-to-be-seen storyline which might make the statement accurate. I personally think there is more to Summer's Cameron than we know about so far.

I think it's both, crappy QC and Cameron has a lot more to her then we've found so far. I personally think that this was not well-developed before it went into production, it's been around for a long time but I think they kinda winged it for a lot of stuff.

Quote:
From Snark:
I have a pet theory that she's actually from even further ahead in time than the T-888s we've seen. Maybe from a truly post-human world (after the resistance is wiped out.

This is a cool idea, probably too cool for the writing that we've seen so far, of course someone from TTSCC may read this and take that as the new storyline.

Quote:
From Zeek
The writing for that show is abysmal at times. There are so many lines like this where if you turn your brain on they just don't make any sense.

The writing is frequently very bad, but somehow I can't look away and it's not in a trainwreck sense. Hopefully with season 2 they can get some better writers in.

Quote:
From Early:
People get so tied up with the timeline they forget it is the most important plot device. Once you introduce Time Travel, all story lines are out the window because you can continually change them without consequence.

Indeed, in one of the other threads there's an argument going on about whether it (and T4) go into the T3 or T2 timelines. My personal take is that due to timeline changes every Terminator is semi-selfcontained, if they explicitly reference something from another one then it's canon for that entry, otherwise it's fair game.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 12:30 PM

STRANGEBIRD

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Yet for some reason I'm still watching. It's sorta like Lost. I keep watching even though I hate the writing of that show. I guess I just follow through once I've invested in something. The networks must love viewers like me.

I understand you there. It took considerable self-control to quit watching Lost. Charlie's death helped. Even though I like how they killed him honorable I still don't have to like it. That show is like a love/loathe relationship, in the worst ways.

The writing on T:TSCC is probably it's weakest aspect next to a bit of the acting. Richard T. Jones and our own BDH Summer are not bad at all, in fact I like Jones here better than on other shows I've seen him in. Summer is doing great. I just hope she doesn't continue to be typecast as the kick-ass hottie. She's good at it but I want to see her in a more.. human role. The other end of River's spectrum so to speak. She's yet to show her very best I feel.

Sorry to any fans of his but Thomas Dekker is so far only a mediocre young actor and this is his worst performance I've seen. His role on Heroes seems like... well an Oscar winning performance by comparison(for those of you with impaired humor that last part was an intended over-exaggeration). Not to say he couldn't get better. A little coaching or a few classes never hurt an actor. I have a feeling most of it is due to bad directing and writing... which is the cause of most poor performances anyway.

I missed the last two episodes and have not had a chance to see them. Thank you in advance but downloading them is not an option with my dial up. Hopefully they will be shown again sometime soon. The fact it doesn't bother me much is a sign I'm not as into this show as I wish I could be. If only for Summer. But even if this show doesn't survive it's second season I seriously doubt she'll be going away anytime soon.

I'm not going to argue either way on the timeline issues. I will state though that I like the above posters theory on contained timelines. Only a handful of movies or TV portray time travel in any believable or enjoyable way. Quantum Leap, while not really realistic was atleast intelligent, emotional and fun enough to be able to overlook it's flaws. The same goes for Journeyman for the most part. It had some bits of bad but less than most other new shows this last season. The last few episodes of that show, especially the very end of the finale were very close to the best TV in a long while. Time travel is a fun premise but can get to be a major headache for average viewer and intellectual viewer alike. I think I fall about halfway between.

<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

"When you can't do something smart, do something right." -

quoting Book
<------<<< ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~(*)~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >>>------>

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 12:44 PM

FREDGIBLET

Quote:
Originally posted by Strangebird:
I missed the last two episodes and have not had a chance to see them. Thank you in advance but downloading them is not an option with my dial up.

Library?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, March 10, 2008 8:29 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeBird:
It's really weird, this show. It falls into Paradoxs'.

SkyNet was created, and it got up to the point were SkyNet made the decision to send a Terminator to kill Sarah Connor. So John Connor sent back Reese, who was infact his father to protect his mother, who then had John... It's a paradox.

HOW did John get there in the first place when Reese, who was John's biological father get to the period of time where Sarah was, and impregnate her so there was John Connor.

How did it get to John Connor when John Connor ordered his own father to go back in time? Reese would have had to have been there BEFORE, to impregnate her, but then, we would have seen Reese in the movie.

Now, it's really strange. But otherwise, it's okay. Go Summer!

Also recall that the Terminator was also not possible until Ahnold was sent back to 1984 so his metal and chips could be reverse engineered to create skynet and Terminators. He is also his own "father".

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 2:14 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeBird:
It's really weird, this show. It falls into Paradoxs'.

SkyNet was created, and it got up to the point were SkyNet made the decision to send a Terminator to kill Sarah Connor. So John Connor sent back Reese, who was infact his father to protect his mother, who then had John... It's a paradox.

HOW did John get there in the first place when Reese, who was John's biological father get to the period of time where Sarah was, and impregnate her so there was John Connor.

How did it get to John Connor when John Connor ordered his own father to go back in time? Reese would have had to have been there BEFORE, to impregnate her, but then, we would have seen Reese in the movie.

Did you ever see the movie The Terminator?
Everything you are asking is explained in the first movie. Kyle Reece was in the movie, having been sent back in time by John Connor. John Connor had given Reece a picture of his mom Sarah previously, and that helped motivate Kyle to agree to go back in time...he wanted to meet her, meet the Legend. Reece explained that SKy net was almost defeated...the resistance had won and "smashed its' grid"..then Connor found the time travel equipment & learned Skynet ( in it's last desperate attempt to survive) had sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah...only later did John Connor & his wife Kate (nee Brewster) learn that Skynet had sent other Terminators back to different points on the past...to stop Sarah, John, General Brewster, and Connor's lieutenants of the future. So they followed suit, and sent protectors back to each point in time that Skynet had. I don't see any paradoxes that are too problematic for the 3 Terminator movies....this TV show has added many new elements and timeline changes, but overall its' still within the framework of everything as it was laid out in T-1.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 5:48 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeBird:
It's really weird, this show. It falls into Paradoxs'.

SkyNet was created, and it got up to the point were SkyNet made the decision to send a Terminator to kill Sarah Connor. So John Connor sent back Reese, who was infact his father to protect his mother, who then had John... It's a paradox.

HOW did John get there in the first place when Reese, who was John's biological father get to the period of time where Sarah was, and impregnate her so there was John Connor.

How did it get to John Connor when John Connor ordered his own father to go back in time? Reese would have had to have been there BEFORE, to impregnate her, but then, we would have seen Reese in the movie.

Did you ever see the movie The Terminator?
Everything you are asking is explained in the first movie. Kyle Reece was in the movie, having been sent back in time by John Connor. John Connor had given Reece a picture of his mom Sarah previously, and that helped motivate Kyle to agree to go back in time...he wanted to meet her, meet the Legend. Reece explained that SKy net was almost defeated...the resistance had won and "smashed its' grid"..then Connor found the time travel equipment & learned Skynet ( in it's last desperate attempt to survive) had sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah...only later did John Connor & his wife Kate (nee Brewster) learn that Skynet had sent other Terminators back to different points on the past...to stop Sarah, John, General Brewster, and Connor's lieutenants of the future. So they followed suit, and sent protectors back to each point in time that Skynet had. I don't see any paradoxes that are too problematic for the 3 Terminator movies....this TV show has added many new elements and timeline changes, but overall its' still within the framework of everything as it was laid out in T-1.

You don't see the paradox of a child sending his father back through time to creat him? If the child wasn't there to send him back then how was he ever born in the first place? If he wasn't born the first time around then who sent his father back in time the first go round?

The way I like to think it through is that the John we know is not the real John Conner. That the real John Conner had a totally different father and once Kyle went back through time he destroyed that timeline. The John he fathered is not the same person. Sarah gave him the name John because that's what Kyle said her son was named. Therefore we're no in uncharted territory and the new John may or may not live up to the legend of the first John.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 10:35 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Quote:
Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
Quote:
Originally posted by KayleeBird:
It's really weird, this show. It falls into Paradoxs'.

SkyNet was created, and it got up to the point were SkyNet made the decision to send a Terminator to kill Sarah Connor. So John Connor sent back Reese, who was infact his father to protect his mother, who then had John... It's a paradox.

HOW did John get there in the first place when Reese, who was John's biological father get to the period of time where Sarah was, and impregnate her so there was John Connor.

How did it get to John Connor when John Connor ordered his own father to go back in time? Reese would have had to have been there BEFORE, to impregnate her, but then, we would have seen Reese in the movie.

Did you ever see the movie The Terminator?
Everything you are asking is explained in the first movie. Kyle Reece was in the movie, having been sent back in time by John Connor. John Connor had given Reece a picture of his mom Sarah previously, and that helped motivate Kyle to agree to go back in time...he wanted to meet her, meet the Legend. Reece explained that SKy net was almost defeated...the resistance had won and "smashed its' grid"..then Connor found the time travel equipment & learned Skynet ( in it's last desperate attempt to survive) had sent a Terminator back to kill Sarah...only later did John Connor & his wife Kate (nee Brewster) learn that Skynet had sent other Terminators back to different points on the past...to stop Sarah, John, General Brewster, and Connor's lieutenants of the future. So they followed suit, and sent protectors back to each point in time that Skynet had. I don't see any paradoxes that are too problematic for the 3 Terminator movies....this TV show has added many new elements and timeline changes, but overall its' still within the framework of everything as it was laid out in T-1.

You don't see the paradox of a child sending his father back through time to creat him? If the child wasn't there to send him back then how was he ever born in the first place? If he wasn't born the first time around then who sent his father back in time the first go round?

The way I like to think it through is that the John we know is not the real John Conner. That the real John Conner had a totally different father and once Kyle went back through time he destroyed that timeline. The John he fathered is not the same person. Sarah gave him the name John because that's what Kyle said her son was named. Therefore we're no in uncharted territory and the new John may or may not live up to the legend of the first John.

A potential paradox maybe..but if you look at it in terms of John Connor's perspective, it all kind of makes sense. It's Kyle Reece who is ultimately manipulated in his present to do what he did in another "future" present.. Connor is controlling the whole thing from the future. He is sending Reece back with no knowledge of his destiny. To accept any of this rationally, you have to believe that our "present" today is actually the "past" from the future's perspective....or accept that time itself is a big mobius loop with no beginning and no end.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 11, 2008 3:38 PM

FREDGIBLET

Or you can just ignore it all and say why let logic ruin good movies?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RuleOfCool

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, March 12, 2008 4:18 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by fredgiblet:
Or you can just ignore it all and say why let logic ruin good movies?

Or you can take the position I take: That strong logical contexts in "good" TV/Film will make something "great".

For an example I'd hand you Firefly (TV series only).

Do not fear me. Our's is a peaceful race and we must live in harmony.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, March 14, 2008 11:53 AM

IMNOTHERE

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
You don't see the paradox of a child sending his father back through time to creat him? If the child wasn't there to send him back then how was he ever born in the first place? If he wasn't born the first time around then who sent his father back in time the first go round?

You're not thinking 5-dimensionally there. There's no such thing as "the first time around" unless there's some sort of 5th dimension separating time lines/universes which itself behaves like time in having a fixed direction of progress and a concept of "before" and "after".

(since this is a SF site, lets ignore the null hypothesis, i.e: what these paradoxes tell us - plus more mundane things like conservation of mass/energy - is that time travel is simply impossible. But that's boring).

OK, so, if you travel into the past and change something, you risk negating the very reason that you travelled for. This is even worse for Skynet than Rees - if the T1000 succeeds in killing Sarah then Skynet would have no reason to send T1000 back, but then John would be born so

(15 second brain reboot)

So, solution 1: Parallel universes - when you travel into the past and change something, you immediately split the universe into two parallel ones - in the new one, you appear out of nowhere, and are free to stamp on bugs, kill your grandparents, and knock up any feisty waitresses you manage to save from killer robots, safe in the knowledge that, somewhere off in the 5th dimension, your "home" universe is carrying on exactly as before (although getting back there might be an issue).

Solution 2 is the pre-determined wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey version. There is only one, fixed, "time line" conveniently arranged by the non-existant God of emergent behaviour to ensure that real paradoxes just never happened. However, this doesn't prevent the "closed causal loop" in which someone goes back in time to father the child that they went back to save because it has "always" been that way. Rees has a perfectly logical life: he gets born, grows up, steps into a time machine, boffs Sarah Connor, gets killed. There was never any "original" time line.

This fits nicely with the Pratchett "narrative causality" principle (an obvious conclusion of which is that any attempt to travel in to the past to prevent an event will actually turn out to have been the cause of said event all along: see, well, just about any time-travel story in history).

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE