After careful consideration, The Dark Knight wasn't all that... by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by zerokiryu:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Dark Knight - 6.5/10
Fantastic Four 2 - 7.5/10

Ahem...

...

*Laughs*

Ahhh...

...

*Laughs more*

Laugh it up, fuzzballs.

I stand by that.
FF2 was more successful at what it was attempting to do, IMO. DK had a bad Crow rip-off for a bad guy, and make no mistake, if you've SEEN The Crow, now that I mention it, you will never be able to watch DK again without thinking about it.

The you-know-I'm-right Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:38 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

The Joker has fun at what he does, but he's also crazy; a tortured and deranged mind. There was plenty of insane laughter and deranged pleasure to the character. The dark and twisted aspect of the Joker is what makes him such a great counterpoint to Batman. They are essentially two sides of the same coin, two men with twisted psyches who have chosen different outlets.
As to Rachel, not that I was glad to see her go, but I thought it fit well. It tortured Batman further, something every other movie in the franchise has patently failed to do; the girl always gets to live, knowing his identity, and it's always bothered me. Now in this one, not only was she with someone else, she died while he still thought they could be together despite that.
I've been impressed with the last two Batman movies integrating two villains without taking away from the story. I think Two-Face was well done, actually, and I don't think he could have carried an entire movie. He was a supporting role, and did it well.
I imagine the next movie (which they would be stupid not to do and I'm sure Nolan not committing to it is a bargaining tactic) will also have two villains, one will bring the Dark Knight back into favor, and the second will increase his angst. I'm talking, of course, about miss Selina Kyle. But that's just my opinion.
As long as it's not stuffed with three villains and godawful one-liners, I'll be pretty happy.

[/sig]

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:43 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Ahhh!... Another thread where chrisisall is being weirdisall.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:56 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by yinyang:
Quote:
Originally posted by zerokiryu:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
The Dark Knight - 6.5/10
Fantastic Four 2 - 7.5/10

Ahem...

...

*Laughs*

Ahhh...

...

*Laughs more*

My thoughts exactly.

Double Ditto

Fantastic Four - really? either of them? REALLY?

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Ahhh!... Another thread where chrisisall is being weirdisall.

]

Thats MrFreakinglyAwesomeWeirdIsAll to you

But seriously? Fantastic Four? ChrisIsAllmayhavelosthismindisAll

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 10:58 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Ahhh!... Another thread where chrisisall is being weirdisall.

I'm tired of creating s***storms on the RWED only- I'm trying to expand my horizons.

Does anyone here truly believe DK was better than BB?????

"As a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting."

Oh, and now he can't be, but Dent CAN??? Can you say plot device?

The really great thing this movie does do- it make the Joker seem extremely dangerous to be near.

The measuring Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:26 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Okay...
MrFreakinglyAwesomeWeirdIsAll!

And yes, Chris. TDK was better than BB, Spidy 3, and F4 combined. Not to mention that Maggie Gyllenhaal should have been cast as Rachael in BB, but noooooooooo! The original casting directors had to go for whats-her-face-with-the-ugly-feet-who-used-to-live-by-the-creek-but-now-lives-with-a-wacko.

I shall say no more. :p

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:27 AM

BYTEMITE

While I think that the Dark Knight was better than the Fantastic Four, I do agree that Dent really should have gotten his own movie. As it was, Two Face was tacked on. Joker owns this movie, and he was the only villain needed.

Joker visiting Dent in the hospital wasn't convincing enough to me for Dent to fall from the precipice the movie was hinting he was at. It was a nice showdown at the end between Batman, Twoface, and Gordon's family, but it wasn't necessary and really was a bit rushed.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:40 AM

SIMONWHO

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Does anyone here truly believe DK was better than BB?????

"As a symbol I can be incorruptible, I can be everlasting."

Oh, and now he can't be, but Dent CAN??? Can you say plot device?

Except that was the problem - he didn't want to be the symbol, he wanted to pass the mantle of it onto someone else. When he started being Batman, an honest politician wouldn't have stood a chance (qv Rachel's boss) but now someone like Dent could stand in the light and be a better symbol than Batman - a white knight. Of course when they started shooting, you may have been able to scoff at the idea of a politician (a politician!) being a symbol of hope and change, generating huge personal loyalty from ordinary members of the public but (thankfully) events this year have proven otherwise.

And if we're going toe to toe with Batman Begins (which I loved but is definitely inferior to TDK), then let's talk overkill with villains. We have Joe Chill, the thug who created Batman. We have Carmine Falcone. We have Dr Crane/Scarecrow. We have Ra's Al Ghul. That's four iconic Batman villains. TDK has the Joker and Two Face (yes, and a tiny cameo by Crane). It's Begins that has too many villains, not The Dark Knight.

Of course, what may be recorded as the film's greatest achievement is having a central character that one of cinema's finest ever actors portrayed less than 20 years ago, in a performance that was described as definitive for both himself and the character. People braced themselves for either a Nicholson imitation or something half-hearted and instead Ledger blew us all away. Even if he hadn't died, his Joker would have caused the same stir, it was such a wonderful redefinition.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 11:46 AM

Am I the only one on the planet that is less than impressed with Ms. Gyllenhal and thought that Harvey Dent (as played by Mr Eckart) was a nacissistic son of a bitch?

................I take that as a yes

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 12:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seen it twice now, and I gotta say they did the Spidey 3 thing and shoehorned an extra villain in where he wasn't needed (2face), they gave us a somber Joker (The Joker is supposed to be having FUN at what he does!), and an actor that was *channeling* the darker bits of Brandon Lee's Crow to boot. They tossed Rachael's character out with the trash, and wasted Dent, who should have had his own movie. Nice photography, music & set pieces though.

I agree with you. The pacing is way off in the film. The last 45 minutes of it feel odd, and make it seem overly long. I could care less about Two Face than any villain in super hero movie history. Ledger did a good job as the Joker. Two Face ruined what could have been a great movie.

For my money, I'll stick with the 1989 version. Jack Nicholson=the Joker

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:03 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
instead Ledger blew us all away.

Please define "us all".

Personally, Nicholson WAS the Joker, movie-wise.
To tell the truth, I would have cast Mark Hamill, his joker was GREAT on the cartoon, and yes, I did just suggest that.

The Trickster-like Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by FutureMrsFIllion:
Am I the only one on the planet that is less than impressed with Ms. Gyllenhal

*raises hand*

The agreeing Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:10 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
While I think that the Dark Knight was better than the Fantastic Four

Now we're talkin' the first FF...okay, I'll agree TDK is a 'better film' technically, but FF was flat out more ENJOYABLE to ME!

The so-there Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
instead Ledger blew us all away.
Please define "us all".

Personally, Nicholson WAS the Joker, movie-wise.
To tell the truth, I would have cast Mark Hamill, his joker was GREAT on the cartoon, and yes, I did just suggest that.

The Trickster-like Chrisisall

Heath certainly blew me away. I absolutely could not see any of the man Heath in that portrayal. Nicholsons Joker was Nicholson in a purplr suit and makeup. Not saying thats a bad thing....

JustsayinIsAll

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 1:32 PM

Hamill would have blown both other performances away. And yes I just did say that.

The serious Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:47 PM

SIMONWHO

"I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic... Ah, what the heck, I'll laugh anyway - Hahahahahahaha!"

See, I love Batman (1989), Batman Begins, The Dark Knight and the Animated Series. I love Nicholson, Ledger and Hamill. We should just count ourselves lucky to have three wonderful versions of such a brilliant character in such a short space of time. But Hamill is a voice actor - he just doesn't have the physicality needed for the role. Sure, he can punch former drug dealers in the crotch but he's 57 - 5 years older than Nicholson was when he did Batman.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 2:57 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SimonWho:
But Hamill is a voice actor - he just doesn't have the physicality needed for the role.

Uhh, Skywalker, anyone?

Quote:
Sure, he can punch former drug dealers in the crotch but he's 57 - 5 years older than Nicholson was when he did Batman.

He's in great shape, and there's makeup/CGI that can take care of the little things.

AGEIST!!!

The mean clown Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Joker visiting Dent in the hospital wasn't convincing enough to me for Dent to fall from the precipice the movie was hinting he was at.

Egg zactly.
Don't get me wrong, TDK is definitely a good movie, it's just after the measured, perfectly paced, and thoughtfully written BB, I was expecting at least as great of a second movie, sadly, that was not the case IMHO.

Another thing: about the latest suit- clip the ears, lose the cape & paint it red and gold, and you have a poor man's *what*?

The very bad man Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:18 PM

Dear Chris me ol' buddy.

I'd conceed that Dark Knight isn't all that. Often it isn't until all the hype has died down that a film really is allowed to just shine under it's own merrits. And maybe this is your point. But I think when you apply repeat viewing to a number of those films on your list the same can be said - that they aren't all that.

I personally cannot see what you think is so great about either Fantastic Four films, but hey we're buds and I'm not ever going to tell you what to like and why. You like - it so be it. I will venture to ask though what criteria you base this on. Is it maybe the praise bestowed upon Dark Knight over Fantastic Four and the other films?...That may well be out of proportion. Maybe... I dunno.

Who is to say either way. For me though the scene with the joker blowing up the hospital dressed as a nurse is one hell of a scene. One hell of a strong scene and I can quite believe that, that particular imagery will define the film in years to come.

Wether it's up there with the greats, I'm not sure. It'll need a few years under it's 'utility' belt first before I draw that conclusion.

But y'know watching films at certain times in a particular frame of mind can really determine your love or hate of it. Right now with all this batman talk going on, and the almost deification of the character it makes me want to watch the Adam West version. Because frankly sometimes you just want to go have some fun when you watch a superhero movie, and nothing says fun more than Adam West rising out of the sea via rope ladder with a shark attached to his leg!

Presently Batman is taken waaaaay too seriously.

Good point about the Crow by the way.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:32 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I will venture to ask though what criteria you base this on.

It's quite simple, actually. When the movie's over, is there a big ole smile on my face?
FF movies - yes.
Dark Knight, no.

Is there an astonished 'WHOAH' to my countenance?

Ironman - yes.
Dark Knight - no.
(BTW, Batman Begins - yes.)

(Also, I'm speaking purely subjectively here)

Objectively, the FF movies have severe pacing, plot and Big Bad problems, but they deliver unto me a plainly entertaining time.
Plus the cast is just excellent.

The putting-in-perspective Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 3:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Hamill would have blown both other performances away. And yes I just did say that.

Never cared for the Animated series that much, so I have nothing to go on when you say Hamill is so great. I really doubt he'd do a better job than Jack though.

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 4:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:

Never cared for the Animated series that much, so I have nothing to go on when you say Hamill is so great. I really doubt he'd do a better job than Jack though.

His 'Trickster' on The Flash was very good- a different villain than Joker, but he showed great Joker potential there- that combined with his voice work on the animated series make me believe he cold be at least as good as, if slightly different than Nicholson, but yeah, Jack was unbelievably good. Ledger did psycho just fine, but he missed the twisted fun the Joker I know & love has doing his misdeeds.

The skewed Chrisisall

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 8:30 PM

I remember when I first heard about "The Dark Knight" I thought it was going to be based on Frank Miller's masterpiece from 1986 of the same name. Now that would make for one hell of a movie.

Psyco with gun pointed toward kidnapped child's head
"Believe me man, I'll kill the kid"
Batman with machine gun in hand shoots the psycho in the head and responds:"I believe you"

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Sunday, December 14, 2008 9:22 PM

SINGATE

Quote:
Originally posted by OPPYH:
I remember when I first heard about "The Dark Knight" I thought it was going to be based on Frank Miller's masterpiece from 1986 of the same name. Now that would make for one hell of a movie.

Not to pick nits but it's called The Dark Knight Returns. I don't know if Hollywood would ever touch this one because it may be a bit too dark. Great series though.

_________________________________________________

We live on a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 5:17 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Seen it twice now, and I gotta say they did the Spidey 3 thing and shoehorned an extra villain in where he wasn't needed (2face), they gave us a somber Joker (The Joker is supposed to be having FUN at what he does!), and an actor that was *channeling* the darker bits of Brandon Lee's Crow to boot. They tossed Rachael's character out with the trash, and wasted Dent, who should have had his own movie.

I agree and disagree.

Agree:
Shoehorning 2-Face wasn't nessessary. The presence of Dent as the new DA was needed, but 2-face wasn't as yet. I also agree that his death was a complete waste. Dent should have become 2-face at the end with no further development.

Disagree:
Joker. A brilliant reinvention of the character. Remember that this series of films has always been a reinvention. Raz-al-ghul is a perfect example. The Joker was presented as a decidedly different psychopath..yes..but I was fine with it. They preserved the 'themes' that acompany the Joker's actions again and again. The sick prank of the smoke grenade in bank manager's mouth is a great example. If one is upset that the Joker isn't having "fun", keep in mind that the film makers told us up front that this was a different Joker. He (Joker) tells us his philosophy right from the jump "I believe that whatever doesn't kill you, only makes you stranger". As far as Rachel goes, killing her was a nessessary action to set Bruce's path. He had said eariler that he'd leave the mask behind for her. She was his hope for a better life and her loss was required to renew Bruce's focus upon sacrificing himself for the good of Gotham. Many good stories establish a character close to the protagonist then kill that character to set a path. Jenny Calinder's death in buffy season 2 is a perfect example. Her loss set Willow's path.

I still agree that 2-face dying was a freaking idiotic waste. Why use Rachel to establish tension twixt Bruce and Harvey only to kill harvey? Stupid. Some friends of mine are convinced that Dent isn't really dead. We'll see.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:

Joker. A brilliant reinvention of the character.

I can accept it as such, as LONG as OTHER peeps can accept the ' brilliant re-invention' of Dr. Doom in the Fantastic Four movies...

MU HUHUHUHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

The evil Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:17 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

I wasn't impressed with Fantastic 4. In my mind I place it in the 'B' rank hero movies with things like Punisher. (But not at C rank, with drivel like Halley Berry's Catwoman)

I guess what I'm saying is I rate Dark Knight along side films like Ironman and Superman. I don't want to compare it to Fan 4 cause I cannot create a basis of comparison. They are of different quality. Like rating 5 star hotels against each other without comparing 4 star hotels, which rate themselves against each other.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by bluesuncompanyman:
I wasn't impressed with Fantastic 4. In my mind I place it in the 'B' rank hero movies with things like Punisher.

I wasn't comparing the actual movies here, just that the main gripe most folk seemed to have with FF was that they effed up Dr. Doom, whereas in TDK, I seem to be in a minority for having that opinion of Ledger's Joker.

The ironical Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:25 AM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Objectively, the FF movies have severe pacing, plot and Big Bad problems, but they deliver unto me a plainly entertaining time.
Plus the cast is just excellent.

Well I wouldn't want to contradict that. If you're entertained - job done.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 6:37 AM

Y'know, the other problem I have with TDK is the length...it never ends. At least Spidey 3 was able to end the compression in just over 2 hrs, TDK has no message of importance, no character study, nor epic story to tell worth over 2 1/2 hrs.
IMO, of course.

The if-he-hates-it-so-much-why-does-he-own-it Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 7:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by singate:
Not to pick nits but it's called The Dark Knight Returns. I don't know if Hollywood would ever touch this one because it may be a bit too dark. Great series though.

That's the name of the trade paperback that came out in 87. The original comic series was just called The Dark Knight.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 7:10 AM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Y'know, the other problem I have with TDK is the length...it never ends. At least Spidey 3 was able to end the compression in just over 2 hrs, TDK has no message of importance, no character study, nor epic story to tell worth over 2 1/2 hrs.
IMO, of course.

... not even the message that any hero once established as such within the public eye becomes vulnerable to terrorism, and as a consequence it remains better for his brand of justice to go uncredited....

?

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Monday, December 15, 2008 7:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
I will venture to ask though what criteria you base this on.
It's quite simple, actually. When the movie's over, is there a big ole smile on my face?
FF movies - yes.
Dark Knight, no.

well, You weren't SUPPOSED to be smiling silly!

I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

FORSAKEN original

Trolls Against McCain

“I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.” Mahatma Gandhi

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Monday, December 15, 2008 7:53 AM

Wow, since joining this board, Chriss' thoughts on film are one of my favorite things to read.

But saying FF2 was better than TDK?

That's over.

Sure, the movie has some flaws... but damn man.

Just.... damn.

I don't think I could possibly disagree with you more on... all of your points.

Damn.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 15, 2008 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
Wow, since joining this board, Chriss' thoughts on film are one of my favorite things to read.

But saying FF2 was better than TDK?

That's over.

Hey- I actually didn't like Batman Begins at first, and it has become one of my favourite movies...maybe TDK just has to grow on me, you know, like moss or something...

But in any case, I'm not sayin' FF2 was better, just that I have a better time watchin' it is all. I have a hard time being objective where superhero movies are concerned...I tend to really like ones most others don't, and only like ones most others love.

Here are ones I'll admit that aren't very 'great', but I groove to 'em over & over:

Daredevil, Director's Cut
Electra, Director's Cut
Supergirl, International Cut
Black Mask, Remastered Chinese Version
Robocop 3
Fantastic Four
X-Men 3
Spider-man 3

Objectively, however, the best flicks are (in no order):

Batman Begins
Superman
X-Men
Spider-man
Iron Man

TDK may fit in there, I don't know yet, time it will take before objective about it I can be.

The Yoda Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 8:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

... not even the message that any hero once established as such within the public eye becomes vulnerable to terrorism, and as a consequence it remains better for his brand of justice to go uncredited....

?

Is that a message, or a way?

The Mal-ish Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:14 AM

Originally posted by chrisisall:

Quote:
Is that a message, or a way?

Well yeah it is...it aint philosophy 101 but still... It's there. What was in Fantastic Four?

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:
What was in Fantastic Four?

The message was that family is important...and that feathers don't tickle Ben when he's asleep- you need a stick.

The smirk-y Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:32 AM

Ha,ha! 'C' ol buddy - you crack me up. You're always good tonic to a bad day.

Cheers

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

Here are ones I'll admit that aren't very 'great', but I groove to 'em over & over:

Daredevil, Director's Cut
Electra, Director's Cut
Supergirl, International Cut
Black Mask, Remastered Chinese Version
Robocop 3
Fantastic Four
X-Men 3
Spider-man 3

Okay, I'm down with the DD: Director's cut. A pretty unappreciated film. And X-Men 3 is better than most give it credit for. Black Mask is pretty cool, too. The rest - sucksville.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:43 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
The rest - sucksville.

I admit that Robocop 3, Supergirl & Electra are seated in suck-class, but I like 'em anyway (They all have excellent musical scores)!

The peculiar Chrisisall

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:44 AM

MSA

Just felt the need to throw in my two cents

Mark Hamill's Joker is amazing.. twisted and psycho yet funny and that odd kind of happy that comes with true wtf loss of sanity. I'd definitely like him as the Joker

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by Storymark:
The rest - sucksville.

I admit that Robocop 3, Supergirl & Electra are seated in suck-class, but I like 'em anyway (They all have excellent musical scores)!

The peculiar Chrisisall

Robocop 3 and Supergirl I never could stand. Elektra I've watched a few times becuase I'm in love with jennifer Garner.... but I really kinda hate the movie.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 15, 2008 9:55 AM

Originally posted by MsA:

Quote:
Mark Hamill's Joker is amazing.. twisted and psycho yet funny and that odd kind of happy that comes with true wtf loss of sanity. I'd definitely like him as the Joker

Praise indeed. All this time I still haven't seen Mark Hamill's Joker. Must sort that out.

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Monday, December 15, 2008 10:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

Praise indeed. All this time I still haven't seen Mark Hamill's Joker. Must sort that out.

You really should see Batman: Mask of the Phantasm. Great movie, and while Joker isn't the main villain, he is a important element of the movie. Batman Beyond: Return of The Joker is also very good.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Monday, December 15, 2008 10:18 AM