Dollhouse prospect for renewal not looking good. by Haken

OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Dollhouse prospect for renewal not looking good.

POSTED BY: HAKEN
UPDATED: Saturday, April 11, 2009 23:54
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 9091
PAGE 1 of 1

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 2:50 PM

Likes to mess with stuffs.

TVBYTHENUMBERS posted an interesting analysis of the cancellation and and renewal prospects of all FOX shows.

At the top is 'HOUSE' with a cancel/renew index of 1.73, which guarantees a renewal. At the bottom is 'Terminator: Sarah Connor Chronicles' with an index of 0.46. Unfortunately for Dollhouse, which has an index of 0.61, the prospect of renewal doesn't look very good.

To view the full analysis, you can go here:

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/03/31/time-running-out-for-dollhouse/15
642

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, March 31, 2009 8:36 PM

FILLYGIRL

Operative: "Its worse than you know..." Mal: "It usually is."

Thanks for posting that Haken. we can hope it picks up, I think its finally getting to the good part!!! I also think thats the reason its not doing well, it took (IMHO) too long to get the best part of the story going. Was this F*x's doing? My guess is yes.
A friend at work and I talk about it every Monday, he said he didn't 'see' Joss in it, until this episode, and I think its F*xs's influence. Why don't they get it, that they run a network, they dont create and produce shows.

Chaplain of the 76th Independant Battalion

Do not bother dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

...it's worse than you know...Operative
...it usually is.....Mal

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:25 AM

GWEK

While it's fashionable to blame FOX--and I'm sure they ARE responsible in part--doesn't Joss have to accept SOME responsibility for the failure of DOLLHOUSE?

Although the show has gotten progressively better, it's still not a great show. Many creators (Joss included) have successfully created compelling, excellent shows from Episode 1 or 2 (rather than practically mid-season), even with the network breathing down their necks.

I don't know if the premise just isn't as strong, or if Joss hasn't tried as hard, or what, but this is definitely not his best work.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 4:18 AM

ZEEK

A lot of the blame lies with Joss IMO. The premise was not a good sell from the start. The show was pretty much dead on arrival IMO. Joss's cult following can't be the only thing to carry a show. He needs to actually have something that will draw in the average viewer.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 4:32 AM

CELLARDOOR

It's not looking good for Nathan Fillion's Castle to get a renewal either...

Here's the latest projections from this week:
http://tvbythenumbers.com/category/ratings/nielsen-overnight-tv-show-r
atings

Nothing's official yet I don't think, but it's certainly not good news. It's so weird; if Dollhouse were getting those numbers, Fox would be worshipping Joss Whedon. Guess it's not enough for one of the biggest networks though.

...so, if Summer Glau, Adam Baldwin, Nathan Fillion, and Joss Whedon are all out of jobs next year... Hm, can Gina Torres and Morena Baccarin get out of their TV show obligations? :P (wishful thinking)

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 4:46 AM

GWEK

Although CASTLE is enjoyable, I won't be too sorry if it goes away. It's a witty show, but the mysteries are already getting a little stale, I think, and the main reason to tune in is for Fillion. If he can use it as a "stepping stone" to a show better matched to his talent level, I think it will have served it's purpose...

DOLLHOUSE, CASTLE, TERMINATOR... even CHUCK... It DOES seem like they're looking for a clean sweep of all things Whedon, doesn't it? Anyone know how the ratings are for HOW I MET YOUR MOTHER?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 12:58 PM

EMMAZULE

I agree. The episodes have all had some enjoyable aspects, but it's only lately that I started getting really, really into it. I think it was the "There are three flowers in a vase" scene (for those who watched the episode) that gave me the first true "OMG I LOVE THIS SHOW" moment (as opposed to just "oh, that's kinda interesting/funny/cool"). Firefly had a LOT more of those kinds of moments, as did Buffy and Angel, as did Serenity and even the Buffy Season 8 and Serenity comics have had moments like that a lot more often for me, despite how much some have complained about the former.

The worst thing Fox did (other than promote it as Sexy Happy Fun Time Action Show, because it is seriously intended to be MUCH creepier than that) was air the "new and improved" pilot, "Ghost", arguably the worst episode. Not only was it the worst episode, but, get this: as a cold intro to the series, it was far inferior to The Train Job IMO. "Ghost", which was written by Joss's own offering and in probably the average time for a script, was inferior to "The Train Job", which was forcibly rewritten in like two days under considerable pressure. That says something. Of course, part of why it's worse is, sadly, Eliza's acting feels so much more stilted in that one... I read somewhere that Joss wanted to "challenge" Eliza on purpose, but the end result was just far too awkward. The cold opening might have turned me right off from all the awkwardness, if a.) I hadn't known it was a Joss show with an interesting premise with an awful lot of read-between-the-lines subtext from the cast and crew saying "it gets better!", and b.) if I had anything better to watch on that Friday. It also felt a little disjointed because of how much was going on at once... though to be frank, all the people who "got confused" because they "couldn't tell what was happening" were idiots IMO.

In the meantime, the second episode?

The second episode, despite weaving back and forth on the chronology a little, had MUCH better flow, much, much better direction, a FAR FAR better introduction for pretty much every single character (particularly Boyd), better summary of the premise of the Dollhouse, better dramatic tension, better humor, better dialogue, and yes, better acting, particularly from Eliza who IMO works really well as an action heroine in comparison to an uptight character, and was therefore absolutely in her element during the "now" plot. It's also got fewer narrative cliches (boxing shots to show us the character's indomitable spirit, Joss?? REALLY??). As an introduction, it works so much better than when I decided to introduce my mom to the series a few weeks into the run I skipped "Ghost" on the DVR and went directly to "The Target". All this despite very blatantly following a "final girl" plot from a common horror trope for the main plot!

Fox were idiots for not airing that one first. It's a much better impression of the series, despite the amount of catchup you'd have to do with say, opening narration.

However, that said... I've enjoyed something about each episode, and the overall quality HAS gotten better, as has Eliza's acting (thank god. That would have been crushing, to see the actress who I liked in Tru Calling and loved as Faith in Buffy, suddenly just... kind of... start consistently sucking). Though I was disappointed with Caroline's background (kind of boring, almost), the real meat of the plot seems to be getting up there and the supporting cast is increasingly proving to be incredibly talented (I love Boyd's actor and Mellisa Tancharoan so mcuh, I swear). I also like how wickedly, gleefully twisted Joss is willing to go with it; not just the fetuses in the jar, mind, but the simple fact that no effort at all is made to obscure the fact that for the most part, the Dollhouse is pretty obviously little more than a high-tech whore house that specializes in taking young people, manipulating them into signing on, erasing their real selves, and using them as plug-and-play living toys. This show is one giant chunk of rather vivid nightmare fuel even if you DON'T take Alpha into consideration.

I like how it fuels so much rampant speculation in my mind, and on occasion surprises the hell out of me, too. I did NOT expect the "three flowers in a vase" scene to turn out the way it did, but I swear I actually made a little happy noise when I saw what they actually did with it.

So... bottom line, I actually do hope it survives, because it is getting pretty interesting and I do like the show. But I won't blame Fox if it dies, since they actually did at least try, but the quality of the first three was so oddly sporadic, the first episode was pretty bad, and the numbers are just not as good as hoped overall. I have no idea if it actually will die though... I mean, does TV by the numbers count buzz on the internet, or Hulu viewings, or iTunes downloads? Or just ratings?

Because if Fox is smart, they'll notice that it does pretty well on Hulu and iTunes, in addition to getting more and more buzz on the net each week (seriously, I don't even recall being able to find dollverse.com on the first google page before it aired, without having to add "TV show" or "Fox" or "Joss Whedon" to the search term. Now something like half the first page IIRC is related to the show despite it being a common term outside the show)... all of this being potential evidence of a longer-range cult sleeper hit (along the lines of Firefly, perhaps, though with slightly different demographics). All evidence it could do well on DVD or (potentially) syndication. Given their experience with Buffy and Firefly, you'd think they would realize a cult hit can still make money in the long term, and maybe factor that in. After all, didn't Firefly still get lower numbers on its initial run? Yet it has still made them tons of money over the course of the years.

So... it could go either way. If Fox is mindful of the possibilities of secondary profits (DVD, merch, etc.), they might be willing to let it stay on and focus more on what they're doing during the more key prime time slots earlier in the week. If they're deciding to just exclusively use Nielsen ratings as the deciding factor though, who knows, it could end badly.

Or conversely, they could do exactly what their company/network did with Tru Calling, and manage to do something obnoxiously in-between, ordering a handful of more episodes but dicking around on the actual showing of them for months and months and then airing them at the last minute without warning only after the replacement show tanks.

Let's hope it's option A and not option C or B. :\

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 1:57 PM

FARFLY

My theory: Dollhouse will run forever.

I read today that The Guiding Light, daytime soap, which has been running since 1937 is being canceled,
Dollhouse may be canceled, Terminator:TSCC may be canceled. I missed watching any episode of Guiding Light for 72 years, I only watched one episode of Dollhouse but have watched every episode of TSCC and bought season one on DVD. You just know they'll cancel the one I like.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 2:24 PM

COZEN

Hate to say it, but it's clear that Castle has already become formulaic and repetitive. Fillion's attractive performance just can't hide the fact that this schtick has been done before, and doesn't add anything new to the wants of a bored audience.

As for Dollhouse, for all that it is NOT formulaic and repetitive, I fear that it has already become too intellectual for the lcd common viewer that best gives hard-ons to wealthy advertisers. There's too much thinking required in resolving the nuances of Dollhouse plots, and that doesn't work well against the feral gambling hit offered by NCAA basketball and the raw sexual stereotyping that is so prevalent in "reality" shows.

The nerds get Dollhouse, for all of it's open-ended plotting. Sadly, the nerds are a small percentage of the advertisers' targeted audience, who won't pay off on the investment until the phenominal dvd sales demonstrate that, oh, this was a sellable show after all, huh.

***
This post brought to you by one who would be immensely glad to be proven stoopid.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 3:23 PM

BLACKCATLADY

Dollhouse will not be back. It would of done better on the SciFi Channel.

Funny, but I was watching Cupid on ABC last night & noticed that they used the same stock footage of NYC which was seen in Castle.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:08 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by cozen:
Hate to say it, but it's clear that Castle has already become formulaic and repetitive. Fillion's attractive performance just can't hide the fact that this schtick has been done before, and doesn't add anything new to the wants of a bored audience.

As for Dollhouse, for all that it is NOT formulaic and repetitive, I fear that it has already become too intellectual for the lcd common viewer that best gives hard-ons to wealthy advertisers. There's too much thinking required in resolving the nuances of Dollhouse plots, and that doesn't work well against the feral gambling hit offered by NCAA basketball and the raw sexual stereotyping that is so prevalent in "reality" shows.

The nerds get Dollhouse, for all of it's open-ended plotting. Sadly, the nerds are a small percentage of the advertisers' targeted audience, who won't pay off on the investment until the phenominal dvd sales demonstrate that, oh, this was a sellable show after all, huh.

***
This post brought to you by one who would be immensely glad to be proven stoopid.

Or it could be that it's just not very good. Based on the comments regarding the show that have been posted here, the feelings are mixed. That certainly wasn't the experience with Firefly, nor with Buffy or Angel I think.

I believe Firefly may be a once in a lifetime experience, but I also think it's safe to say this is Whedon's worst effort by far.

I've actually started enjoying Castle. I could only stomach 5 minutes of the pilot but Nathan is fun to watch. I've never watched a cop show before, so I'm not burdened with the formulaic nature of it.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:28 PM

DANALYNN26

I hope dollhouse comes back. I didn't instantly love it like Joss's other show but it has grown on me. I really liked the man on the street episode.

It is so sad they are they are cancelling Guiding Light. I have watched that show since I was a little kid, my Grandma and I used to watch it together.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Wednesday, April 1, 2009 5:32 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Yeah, some of what you say is true, but for me the bottom line is - once again F*x is aborting a quality show that needs a season or two to really get things going. They're like an indecisive bride who marries a man and gives up after just a few months, then tries it again. These things take time... It's idiotic to the extreme. They go to the trouble and expense of starting up a production, then just after it pops out of the gate, they chop it off at the knees. It's corporate anti-creativity at its worst.

I must say, I've been watching with one eye, waiting for them to cancel it. What the hell, we could use at least one more reality show about shouting cooks or supernannies.

We suck.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 2, 2009 2:33 AM

JONGSSTRAW

I have yet to be able to stay awake through an entire episode of Dollhouse. To me it's always a bit boring, and I guess I just never bought into the entire premise of the show anyhow. I do like Eliza however, and I'd love to see her in the Serenity sequel.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 2, 2009 3:22 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
once again F*x is aborting a quality show that needs a season or two to really get things going.

But see, that's not how TV works... nor should it be. If a TV show needs a full season "to really get things going," it SHOULD be cancelled, because it's a BAD TV show!

I think it's equally silly to give a show only 2-5 episodes to find its audience, but the sad reality is that if a show can'd find itself in that time period, it's probably never going to (short of a big "venue" change, like switching to a night that favors a demographic or a different network).

In the case of DOLLHOUSE, the fan and critical buzz has been mixed at best, painting a VERY different picture than something like FIREFLY.

The problem with starting to get good at episode 6 is that many people have already tuned out some time during the first five (non-good) episodes.

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 2, 2009 7:19 AM

PHOENIXSHIP

Here's the analogy that pops into my mind: When you start a new job, you need time to learn things, get to know people, etc. If it's a job of any complexity, it will take months to fit in.

Now imagine a TV show. Everybody is "the new guy". Each episode must be finished in 7 days. I'm sure it's controlled chaos. Characters are written for/developed. Plots are planned/foreshadowed. Things become clear only through the magic of TIME.

I don't disagree with your assessment of the reality of the situation. I'm just bemoaning the short attention span we seem to have in this country. I think we can agree that given time, any Joss show will improve continuously, and eventually become excellent. You just know he's got webs of stories in his head with all kinds of weird interactions. It just takes time to lay the groundwork.

I suppose I am also feeling manipulated by F*x. If Dollhouse gets the ax, I'm going to feel like I've been suckered twice. I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I hate it when the forces of ignorance triumph. And to top it all off, Terminator will likely get cancelled. I know it's been uneven, but again, with time, I think they could develop a really interesting mythology. Oh well, I should read more anyway.

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 2, 2009 8:36 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Here's the analogy that pops into my mind: When you start a new job, you need time to learn things, get to know people, etc. If it's a job of any complexity, it will take months to fit in.

But it's often apparent from the first few days if someone will work out or not. Sometimes, it's just a bad fit, and if that's recognized early on, it's really a mercy to end it quickly.

Quote:
Now imagine a TV show. Everybody is "the new guy". Each episode must be finished in 7 days. I'm sure it's controlled chaos. Characters are written for/developed. Plots are planned/foreshadowed. Things become clear only through the magic of TIME.

But the element that you're forgetting here is GOOD WRITING. The magic of GOOD WRITING means that while the story will unfold over time, it should still be compelling from the beginning. (At least compelling enough to make people come back enough times to get to the really good stuff).

Before the first scene is filmed, before the series is picked up, indeed, quite possibly before the idea is even pitched to the network, the creator has an idea where the story will go.

A good creator supported by a skilled writing staff, will have an agenda that, yes, will be thrown periodically by network execs or scheduling problems, but, overall, the basics of the story are laid out weeks or months in advance.

Quote:
I don't disagree with your assessment of the reality of the situation. I'm just bemoaning the short attention span we seem to have in this country. I think we can agree that given time, any Joss show will improve continuously, and eventually become excellent.

I have to disagree with that assessment. I think that most people will agree that there is not a steady progression of improvement in, say, BUFFY. Although it improved (dramatically) from Season One to Season Two, most folk will say that is peaked well before the last season.

One of the things that Joss showed us with FIREFLY is that he knows how to hit the ground running. He knows how to rope us in. Sure, THE TRAIN JOB is not as good as the original pilot, but in 44 minutes, Joss managed to give the network what they wanted AND tell a story that was interesting enough to make us tune back in next week, even if we weren't hooked just yet.

The quality of the opening episodes of DOLLHOUSE represents a step backward, and while it's always chic to blame FOX for that, FOX isn't credited as the writer.

Quote:
You just know he's got webs of stories in his head with all kinds of weird interactions. It just takes time to lay the groundwork.

And, again, DOLLHOUSE represents a failure on his part in many ways. If he were telling the story as a novel or movie, or mini-series, he'd have the luxury perhaps to start off with a bunch of weak episodes, but the storytelling medium of television doesn't (and shouldn't!) allow for that.

Quote:
I suppose I am also feeling manipulated by F*x. If Dollhouse gets the ax, I'm going to feel like I've been suckered twice. I know I shouldn't take it personally, but I hate it when the forces of ignorance triumph.

How are "the forces of ignorance" winning here? The show got off to a slow start and hasn't yet been able to find an audience. Indeed, ratings continue to drop, and that's not the network's fault. That's flat storytelling and two-dimensional characters.

I'm not saying DOLLHOUSE is the worst show out there, but coming from someone as talented as Joss, it's been VERY disappointing so far.

Let's be honest: if it didn't have Whedon's name on in, and some of his alumni in it, how many of us would still be watching it? How many of us would have actually made it to the "good" episodes?

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Thursday, April 2, 2009 9:36 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Okay, I've read most of the posts here and I must say that there are some strong opinions that the show may be cancelled.

That may be so but I disagree that Joss bears all the blame. Yes, he may have contributed some to the show's shortcomings, but, for the most part, especially the early eps, Fox has got to accept the majority of the blame.

I kept reading articles and blurbs about the number of re-writes Fox asked for in the pilot and other eps (Remember the Train Job?). I can't help but wonder how many of the early eps were complete clusterf*&^%#@ks after Fox meddling. But I thought of something even simpler than that - just like chemistry between 2 actors must click for a hit show, then too must chemistry click between a writer/director and a network. Fox has a penchant for shows to hit the ground running (that's why 24 has been been given carte blanche).
Joss does not write in that style. Fox knew this, and, for that matter, so did Joss.

That's why, IMO, Fox presses all of the shows considered to be "action" oriented to follow that "24" formula. Of course this does not include a show like "House." Shows like Firefly and Dollhouse are much better suited for the SciFi
channel.

SGG

Tawabawho?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 3, 2009 4:27 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

TSCC - I have no doubt this will be canceled. The Terminator franchise has been a disappointment since the end of the 2nd film when "future history changed". Once they lost a purpose..a direction..the subsequent stories were pre-destined to become muddled. The logic behind events of both the third film and TSCC are, at times, so jumbled they are just not worth watching. I have no doubt that this new film "salvation" will be no better. How can it be when it is forced into a pre-determined path?

Dollhouse - I sense this is proceeding like Buffy Season 1. If one was to judge buffy solely on the merits of season 1, it would be a sad affair indeed. Joss needs to pick this up and start adding snappy plots to grab attention. Echo waking up will help. This show needs to drift into a "Dark Angel"-like direction with spiffy whedonesque dialoge tossed in.

Castle - In 5 words: This has been done before. It's already stale and will be cancled soon. This is fine by me since it will allow Nathan to move on to better things. I was just thinking of a Dr. Horrible sequel called "Hammer".

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 3, 2009 10:19 AM

GGOTCH

Generally, I have never been one for network television. But unlike myself, it would seem that most of us tuning into the networks, are looking for simple, flashy, easy-to-understand programing, that allow us to relax, until it is time for bed. And there is nothing wrong with that. Like most maunfactured products, we consumers continue to get what we most consume, as it should be I suppose. Plus, TV is a very expensive business, to be taking too many chances. And production company/network shareholders expect quarterly upbeat results. Sigh, such is the world we live in.

I have tuned into Castle, as I do like Nathan, as an actor. But I feel that the show exemplifies what I am saying: rather bland, and predictable. Good for falling asleep to. Sadly, with snappy dialog, and great plots, it could have been "Monk" meets "Moonlighting".

For me, without any disdain for anyone, I just avoid most TV programing. Network is what it is.

However, many moons ago, my sister-in-law convinced my wife and I to view some episodes of Buffy, while it was still in production, and we fell in love with the show.

Because of the respect, I had developed, for that show, and its creator, I searched out Firefly and stayed with it despite the wild ride the Fox Network gave all of us, who were trying to watch the show loyally.

I am truly a Browncoat, through and through.

Now, out of respect for Firefly, and its creator, and despite the fact that Dollhouse's premise did not appeal to me, I tuned in.

Perhaps unfairly, I watched only 2 episodes, but I did find the show to be unappealing, as I suspected it would-for me.

I still salute Joss, however, for piloting an attempt at an innovating new show. I will always give something he champions a look. But we are allowed to find some things not to our liking- that is OK.

I love the Beatles, but wish they had never done "Mr Moonlight". Not everything geniuses do is exceptional.

I'm in the tank for more Firefly/Serenity, and I'll keep on the lookout for Joss's new stuff (loved "Dr. Horrible", by the way), but I have to leave Dollhouse unwatched.

Sorry Joss. Sorry gang!

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Friday, April 3, 2009 5:07 PM

DREAMTROVE

As a person who doesn't care for dollhouse, I'd be okay with that. Joss can do something else now. Notice how T:SCC's ratings plummeted on the friday movey.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 10:22 AM

LEXIBLOCK

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Although CASTLE is enjoyable, I won't be too sorry if it goes away. It's a witty show, but the mysteries are already getting a little stale, I think, and the main reason to tune in is for Fillion.

The problem is they are focusing to much on solving crimes in those stories, and not enough on the funny. If it kept being as funny as the first episode this would have been their new hit.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 11:12 AM

GWEK

Quote:
Originally posted by Shinygoodguy:
I disagree that Joss bears all the blame. Yes, he may have contributed some to the show's shortcomings, but, for the most part, especially the early eps, Fox has got to accept the majority of the blame.

I don't think anyone has said that Joss should bear "all" of the blame, but neither is he blameless.

(In fact--and I know this is going to make me very unpopular around these parts!--Joss is also partially responsible for demise of Firefly. Yes, FOX completely mis-handled and mis-managed, but if you read between the lines in many of the interviews and much of the commentary, and it's pretty clear that he was subversive and adversarial during much of the run of FOX. Not saying FOX didn't "deserve" it, but no matter how much of a jerk your boss is, being a jerk back is usually a good way to get fired!)

Quote:
I kept reading articles and blurbs about the number of re-writes Fox asked for in the pilot and other eps (Remember the Train Job?). I can't help but wonder how many of the early eps were complete clusterf*&^%#@ks after Fox meddling. But I thought of something even simpler than that - just like chemistry between 2 actors must click for a hit show, then too must chemistry click between a writer/director and a network.

You are completely correct. If there are tensions between the creator and the network, that will cause problems. And it takes TWO parties, not one, to create that tension.

Quote:
Fox has a penchant for shows to hit the ground running (that's why 24 has been been given carte blanche).
Joss does not write in that style. Fox knew this, and, for that matter, so did Joss.

FOX, as with every network, wants shows that are successful.

It may surprise you to know that the creators of 24 assumed that they would be cancelled (not because of FOX specificially, but because they didn't know if their concept would work). One of the reasons that the plot for the first season lurches around so much is because they were quite literally making it up as the went along, not having been expected to be picked up for a full season.

Quote:
That's why, IMO, Fox presses all of the shows considered to be "action" oriented to follow that "24" formula. Of course this does not include a show like "House." Shows like Firefly and Dollhouse are much better suited for the SciFi channel.

Well, of COURSE, FOX is going to want shows that are similar to their successful shows! Every network wants to expand on success. That's why there are so many gorram procedural crime shows on the air and not a whole lot of DRIVE knockoffs! :)

Regardless of the reality of TV programming and FOX's fault in DOLLHOUSE's failure (which, yeah, is definitely there), we can't ignore the many interviews where Joss basically said "Don't worry about it. The show gets good around episode six." No one's going to want to hang around through five BAD episodes first (not should where)!

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 5:21 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by LexiBlock:
The problem is they are focusing to much on solving crimes in those stories, and not enough on the funny. If it kept being as funny as the first episode this would have been their new hit.

Interesting. I couldn't stomach 5 minutes of the pilot because it was so bad. But I watched it the next week because of Nathan, and I've been enjoying it more and more. One thing I have going for me is that I've never watched a procedural crime show until now.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 5:28 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Regardless of the reality of TV programming and FOX's fault in DOLLHOUSE's failure (which, yeah, is definitely there), we can't ignore the many interviews where Joss basically said "Don't worry about it. The show gets good around episode six." No one's going to want to hang around through five BAD episodes first (not should where)!

I think part of the problem is that it hasn't gotten extraordinarily better after episode 5. Probably a lot of us were hanging around for that, and feel let down.

What I can't sux out in this, however, is if I'm being too hard on the show because it is a Joss show.

One of Joss' strengths is writing deeply layered characters. I think it must be hard to build much of an arc when part of or most of the time, the characters have no personality by definition. The actives aren't onions, they're ... bananas ... or maybe star fruit.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 5:40 PM

GWEK

I don't think it's unfair to expect something from a Joss Whedon show.

Fame is a double-edged sword.

As I've said before, without Joss's name attached to the show, how many of us would still be watching it by now? I know I would have given up after two or three episodes. (Heck, even WITH his name on it, many of my friends did.)

If we're going to give Joss (or any name, for that matter) the benefit of the doubt, it's not unfair to expect something in return. In the case of DOLLHOUSE, it goes something like this for me: "I know what Joss is capable of, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and ride out the entire season... but let's see how it goes next year, buddy..."

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 5:51 PM

PACHELBEL

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
I don't think it's unfair to expect something from a Joss Whedon show.

Fame is a double-edged sword.

As I've said before, without Joss's name attached to the show, how many of us would still be watching it by now? I know I would have given up after two or three episodes. (Heck, even WITH his name on it, many of my friends did.)

If we're going to give Joss (or any name, for that matter) the benefit of the doubt, it's not unfair to expect something in return. In the case of DOLLHOUSE, it goes something like this for me: "I know what Joss is capable of, so I'll give him the benefit of the doubt and ride out the entire season... but let's see how it goes next year, buddy..."

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

I hear ya. Does anyone know how much Tim Minear is involved in this show (or even Joss for that matter. Of the first 8 episodes, how many has he written and/or directed?)? While I loved Wonderfalls and Drive, Tim + Joss = shiny goodness.

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 6:15 PM

GWEK

To date, Joss has written two episodes and Minear one... which is not atypical for a series. It's not like Joss wrote every episode of Firefly or Buffy...

It's also not like the other writers are slouches. The writing staff includes Steven DeKnight (who worked on both Buffy and Angel), and Elizath Craft and Sarah Fain (both of whom wrote for Angel, as well as The Shield, which is one of the few shows I'd say is as good as Firefly).

Admittedly, there are a few "noobs" in the mix, but over all, it's a very strong writing staff.

I think much of the problem, ultimately, is the content. The "A-stories" of the missions are not particularly interesting, and the B-stories either involve the staff of the Dollhouse (who may be more interesting, but, let's face it, they are mostly unsympathetic) or Agent Ballard (who is okay, but currently mostly detached from the story).

Sadly, I think the show lacks "heart" (both in terms of solid characters "with heart" and a core or "heart" of the show).

www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 4, 2009 8:05 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!

I can't stand House. The "star" British actor was an amateurish "comedian/actor" when he was on BBC every week in UK. That's what I see in House today.

If Joss were allowed to work his magic without interferance, Dollhouse would shine. "More action less wit" is the Fox half-wit formula for failure. Only 1, maybe 2 "jokes" allowed in this past week's epp.

"Co-ed showers?! No big deal."
-Dollhouse, Needs

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 5, 2009 11:32 AM

ASORTAFAIRYTALE

I don't really get everyone's issue with Dollhouse. In my opinion, it's a great Joss Whedon show without the annoying cheesyness that Buffy and Angel tended to have. I really hope it doesn't get canceled.

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 5, 2009 11:47 AM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
As a person who doesn't care for dollhouse, I'd be okay with that.

As a person who DOES care for Dollhouse, I'd be sorry to see it go.

Quote:
Originally posted by GWEK:
Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Things become clear only through the magic of TIME.

But the element that you're forgetting here is GOOD WRITING. The magic of GOOD WRITING means that while the story will unfold over time, it should still be compelling from the beginning. (At least compelling enough to make people come back enough times to get to the really good stuff).

Well, that's the thing, ain' it? We're not talking about people's alleged shallow need for 'instant gratification' or some such. I mean, one of my all-time favority SF shows, Babylon 5, was unique, in that it was the first long-term SF show in which story arcs were built up, and stretched out, over several years even. And it worked. People ARE patient, if need be. But every episode was good. Or near enough. However, when you get to the point in the show where you're crossing your fingers for the next episode, hoping it won't die, well, that's just another way of saying it ain't very good 'as is.' "Man in the street" was excellent. Superb, even. And Eliza Dushku is fair bunkable, for sure. But neither is, alone, good enough to warrant a next season. You need sustained, overall quality.

Quote:

How are "the forces of ignorance" winning here? The show got off to a slow start and hasn't yet been able to find an audience. Indeed, ratings continue to drop, and that's not the network's fault. That's flat storytelling and two-dimensional characters.

I'm not saying DOLLHOUSE is the worst show out there, but coming from someone as talented as Joss, it's been VERY disappointing so far.

Joss is a brilliant man. He really is. Very intelligent. Very witty. And a good writer. But I don't envy him his position. After he burnt his fingers on Firefly, so to speak, it seems he placated the FOX execs by dummyfying Dollhouse enough so that the man in the street could watch it (except for "Man in the street," of course). Seems like a good way to attract more viewers, no? Indeed, no! Because a dummed-down Joss show just ain't Joss any more. And now he's losing peeps that like him for his intelligent shows. Well, there ya have it: the perfect lose-lose situation. Far be it from telling the man how to do his job. I just wish Joss would have stayed true to his own self, is all, and made the show exactly the way he intended to, sans the endless compromise.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Sunday, April 5, 2009 9:35 PM

PHOENIXSHIP

Dear Joss,

You've created three incredible TV shows. The first two had years-long story arcs with unprecedented character development. You successfully mixed horror and humor. You produced a musical episode with great music - and it actually fit with the timeline of the series. You got Serenity made on a shoestring, which while not a commercial success, was a far sight better than 90 percent of the crap out there.

However, we are not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If your newest effort doesn't impress us with shiny objects and instant gratification, we're not willing to be patient.

Sorry.

Signed,
Your fans

"Why're you arguin' what's already been decided?"
Mal to Jayne, "Jaynestown"

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Monday, April 6, 2009 1:34 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Dear Fellow Browncoats,

I must say that there's a lot of gloom and doom here, and I'm all aware that DH has had little success in knocking it out of the park in terms of individual eps, I somehow hold out hope that Joss is just warming up.

Now, the realist in me says that that doesn't bode well for the continuation of the story. Fox, as with most networks (as has been pointed out to me), is not very patient when it comes to new shows (no matter who is doing the writing).

The story, the expansion of what the Blue Sun Company did to River, was somewhats interesting to me (I'm a sucker for women who have 'super' powers and kick butt - Buffy, Dark Angel, Fifth Element) and I think I would have given it a chance no matter who wrote it. But since I knew it was Joss, I gave it more of a look see because of Firefly moreso than Buffy.

In the longrun, it is strictly up to Fox if this show continues and allows Joss to complete his story. As I said before, I'm a realist and I know as well as the next guy that if the numbers continue to decline Dollhouse is history. I too wish that Joss would follow his instincts and write the show HIS way and gives us what WE know he's capable of - GREATNESS.

Not all his shows are gonna be homeruns, so I say Joss go down swinging for the fences. To the rest of us, keep rooting for the 'home' team, it's only the fifth inning.

SGG

Tawabawho?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Tuesday, April 7, 2009 6:25 AM

WASHNWEAR

Quote:
Originally posted by Phoenixship:
Dear Joss,

You've created three incredible TV shows. The first two had years-long story arcs with unprecedented character development. You successfully mixed horror and humor. You produced a musical episode with great music - and it actually fit with the timeline of the series. You got Serenity made on a shoestring, which while not a commercial success, was a far sight better than 90 percent of the crap out there.

However, we are not willing to give you the benefit of the doubt. If your newest effort doesn't impress us with shiny objects and instant gratification, we're not willing to be patient.

Sorry.

Signed,
Your fans

[CHEtongueEK] P.S. This abomination you have wrought called Dollhouse should be picked up by its ankles and used to beat you senseless, for having so abused and disappointed The Base. [/CHEtongueEK]

But on a somewhat more serious note, how many episodes in a doubt?

W W R D ?
What would Rorschach do?

NOTIFY: Y | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

Saturday, April 11, 2009 11:54 PM

JAYNEZTOWN

I'm not a whedonesque zombie and will admit Dollhouse sucked

it deserves cancellation

SCRAP IT

NOTIFY: N | REPLY | REPLY WITH QUOTE | TOP | HOME

YOUR OPTIONS

SHARE THREAD

NEW POSTS TODAY

USER

POST DATE