OTHER SCIENCE FICTION SERIES

Iron Man 2

POSTED BY: BIGRICHARD
UPDATED: Sunday, May 16, 2010 19:01
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 7513
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Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:44 AM

BIGRICHARD


This thread was inevitable, so I figured I'd get there first!

Who's seen it? What did you think?
(MINOR SPOILERS MAY ENSUE)

I just got back from it, and I had a great time.
Honestly couldn't say whether it was better than the first or not, it was just a great time.

I think it's worth saying that it took me a while to get into it, and occasionally I felt it had some pacing problems, but overall, I didn't have much of a problem with it.

Mickey Rourke, Don Cheadle and Sam Rockwell were all standouts, as of course, was Downey Jr, and I really liked seeing Jon Favreau have a bit more fun this time round too.

Only one final thing left to add, and that's if you're a fan of the little clips after the credits, hang around. It's as short as the clip from the first one, but without the "OHMYGOD IT'S SAM JACKSON AS NICK FURY!" amazement. I liked seeing it, but it was just a nice little tip of the hat, nothing vital.


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Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:00 AM

LWAVES


I didn't read your post to avoid the spoilers you mentioned but I'm seeing this tomorrow (Friday) afternoon.
Really looking forward to it as the first one thoroughly impressed me. It was a near perfect example of how to take a comic superhero and turn it into a blockbuster that wasn't too OTT, had the fun intact, great acting, thrills, spills and plenty of bang. And when it was over you wanted more.

I'll let you know what I think afterwards.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Thursday, April 29, 2010 8:06 AM

CHRISISALL


Saturday, maybe... hopefully...
GORRAMIT DEFINITELY!!!!


The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:25 AM

STORYMARK


How you gonna see it, Chris? It's not out in the US for another week (even though it is playing internationally now).

I'm looking forward to it. I liked the first, but I'm hoping this one is a little less paint-by-numbers.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Thursday, April 29, 2010 9:49 AM

CHRISISALL


I THOUGHT it was out from the cross-talk!!!

The 7th then!!!!


The laughing Chrisisall


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Thursday, April 29, 2010 12:47 PM

BIGRICHARD


Haha sorry for the confusion Chris!
Jeez, we got it that early? That NEVER happens!
Ah well, might have to see it again before it opens over there, just to make the most of it :P

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Thursday, April 29, 2010 3:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


They're making a SECOND Iron Man movie ?

Huh. Hadn't heard anything about it.

Is it suppose to be any good?







Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Thursday, April 29, 2010 7:34 PM

BIGRICHARD


It was great. Just fantastic fun.
If you enjoyed the first, you'll like the second. It's a similar film, tonally, but with a few interesting twists to the classic superhero type thing with Tony Starks demons.

Great film, but don't expect any sort of masterpiece. On par with the first.

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Friday, April 30, 2010 10:43 AM

LWAVES


It was fantastic - a worthy sequel.
Downey Jr again is perfect as Tony Stark. Cheadle is a worthy replacement as Rhodey. Rourke is excellent as the big bad. Rockwell is suitably slimy as a rival weapons builder. Paltrow is great and adds the emotion to her scenes when it's needed. Johannson is underused IMO but then it's also not about her character.
It was also nice to see that just about every actor that had a scene in the first movie is back like Agent Coulson, Rhodey's military buddy, Nick Fury, the reporter etc. Nice continuity.

And do stick around till the credits finish. It's not much but it's worth it IMO.

Now for the spoiler section - enter at your own risk.

Select to view spoiler:



The Monaco race looked completely realistic. It was only some of the camera angles that made me realise that it was faked (or at least some of it).

It was great to see Stark lose it as he knew he was dying and it was a nice touch to have the very thing that keeps him alive be the thing that is killing him.

The final chase sequence was excellent, looked fantastic and showed why a human pilot will always be better than computer controlled drones.
I though the final fight with Mickey was a little short but I liked it because of that. Stark figured what he needed to do and they did it. No need to mess around like so many other movies.

I also liked what was almost a throwaway moment where Coulson hands Stark the incomplete shield of Capt America. He says it exactly what he needs and then uses it to prop up his piping. Brilliant and Stark in a nutshell.

Thor's Hammer at the end was not what I was expecting to see. Does this mean they'll definitely make a Thor movie then? I know they are doing a Capt America one. And they put the hint in IM2 about the Avengers movie.



If you see it, enjoy it. Like the first movie - this one will take some beating.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Friday, April 30, 2010 2:17 PM

BIGRICHARD


lwaves! agree with everything you said!
but lets talk more about your final point...in secret.

Select to view spoiler:



Thor is already in filming I believe,
Cast list here: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0800369/
(includes Natalie Portman, Kat Dennings, Anthony Hopkins, Stellan Skarsgard, Colm Feore, AND Clark Gregg is back as Agent Coulson!)
It's also being directed by Kenneth Branagh, which should be a big plus.
The first picture of Thor was released yesterday, and can be seen here:
http://www.firstshowing.net/2010/04/30/first-photo-of-chris-hemsworth-
as-kenneth-branaghs-thor
/

No idea if this needed spoilers or not, but some people might not like to know just yet...




ETA: SPOILERS FAIL. You can see the links. My bad.

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Friday, April 30, 2010 2:24 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
They're making a SECOND Iron Man movie ?

Huh. Hadn't heard anything about it.

Is it suppose to be any good?



Heh, you dork.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Friday, April 30, 2010 2:24 PM

DMAANLILEILTT


i agree completely that this movie was awesome. as good as the first easily.

and lwaves:

Select to view spoiler:


they are indeed making a thor movie. kenneth branagh is directing. chris hemsworth (star trek, cabin in the woods, red dawn remake) is thor.


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Friday, April 30, 2010 4:17 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
They're making a SECOND Iron Man movie ?

Huh. Hadn't heard anything about it.

Is it suppose to be any good?



Heh, you dork.


The laughing Chrisisall




Takes one to know one.








Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Friday, April 30, 2010 4:20 PM

CHRISISALL


Am I rubber or glue here?
I can't recall.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 1, 2010 12:18 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by BigRichard:
lwaves! agree with everything you said!
but lets talk more about your final point...in secret.

Select to view spoiler:



Thor is already in filming I believe,
Cast list here: (includes Natalie Portman, Kat Dennings, Anthony Hopkins, Stellan Skarsgard, Colm Feore, AND Clark Gregg is back as Agent Coulson!)
It's also being directed by Kenneth Branagh, which should be a big plus.
The first picture of Thor was released yesterday, and can be seen here:
No idea if this needed spoilers or not, but some people might not like to know just yet...






Thanks BigRichard and DMAANLILEILTT.


Response in spoilers:

Select to view spoiler:



That's good news then. There were so many rumours over the years that you never know what to believe. I see they are doing a Nick Fury movie for the year after Thor. And Agent Coulson will be in both. That guy might become a legend if this whole idea of linking all the movies pays off.
And with Capt America being shot as well it looks like the superhero movie isn't going away anytime soon.



And Chris you better post when you've seen it this weekend. I want to know your thoughts as I know your a big fan of the first movie.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Saturday, May 1, 2010 1:04 AM

CATPIRATE


Can you say big popcorn and cherry cola.

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Friday, May 7, 2010 12:16 AM

JAYNEZTOWN


Quote:

Originally posted by CatPirate:
Can you say big popcorn and cherry cola.



Can you say Russia's Revenge!


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Saturday, May 8, 2010 9:14 AM

PARTICIPANT


Quote:

Bigger, louder and dumber than its predecessor, "Iron Man 2" is still a lot of fun.

Just not all the time. Unevenly paced and at times visually almost incoherent, especially during action scenes, the film stays afloat as director Jon Favreau relies heavily on the considerable charms of Robert Downey Jr. as Tony Stark, along with an excellent supporting cast. Not that Favreau always knows what to do with it; certainly it's disappointing that Mickey Rourke spends 80 percent of the climactic battle . . . typing.

Yes, clickity-clack on a laptop keyboard, programming drones to take down Iron Man because, well, that's what Russian physicists insane with grief do, I guess. That's who Rourke plays, Ivan Vanko, a brilliant man with bad dentition who believes that his father's downfall was caused by Tony Stark's father. Now he's out for revenge.

Though it's not clear that he need be; Stark's growing ego might have taken him down without any outside help. The toxicity caused by his fake heart isn't doing him any favors, either.

"Iron Man 2" picks up where the original left off, right after Stark reveals that he is indeed Iron Man. Months pass and he's flying high, literally and figuratively, telling a congressional hearing to which he's just refused to give his Iron Man technology, "I have successfully privatized world peace!"

Not so fast, bub. Not only is Vanko making progress with a sort of steampunk Iron Man knockoff suit, Stark is also being flanked by a competitor, Justin Hammer (Sam Rockwell), a squirrelly arms developer itching for a government contract. Meanwhile, Pepper Potts (Gwyneth Paltrow), Stark's loyal assistant, is trying to convince Stark that he needs to pay more attention to his company (he responds by promoting her). His friend, Lt. Col. James "Rhodey" Rhodes (Don Cheadle) is trying to keep Stark in the Army's relatively good graces. And newly hired legal representative Natalie Rushman (Scarlett Johansson) seems to know an awful lot about martial arts. . . .

Ultimately none of this matters much. The fun that "Iron Man 2" offers is found in the interaction between the characters, not the story. Even though Hammer is something of a stock character, the anything-for-money sort, Rockwell is obviously having fun with him. Hammer's dealings with Vanko, who he sees as a tool to get at Stark, are most enjoyable. A scene in which Hammer tries to sell Rhodey on various types of guns is even better. Hammer isn't a super hero, but I wouldn't mind seeing a movie about him, if Rockwell played the role.

Garry Shandling is also really good as the U.S. senator who wants Stark's secrets. Cheadle is a fine replacement for Terrence Howard as Rhody. Johansson gets to dye her hair red and kick a lot of butt. Rourke speaks Russian, wields electronic whips but spends a lot of time on the sidelines, thinking about, designing or building weapons designed to kill Stark.

Downey is still enormously entertaining to watch, his disheveled super hero trying to come to terms with a different kind of recognition than he's used to, while he tries to keep himself alive.

If that sounds like a lot to sort through, well, that's the biggest problem with the movie. With all those elements in play, Favreau is forced to jump around from one character to the next, meaning that if you're enjoying an exchange between Rhodey and Stark, well, don't get too attached, because we're soon bouncing over to Vanko driving Hammer crazy. Individually they're enjoyable moments, but it's hard to keep a narrative flow.

There are hints of an Avengers movie to come (fanboys will want to stick around past the lengthy credits for a specific tease), as well as a funny nod to Captain America.

There are lots of things, too many things to keep up with for "Iron Man 2" to be as satisfying as the original. But as long as Downey's portrayal is one of those things, then it's hard to complain too much.

Read more: http://www.azcentral.com/thingstodo/movies/articles/2010/05/05/2010050
5ironman0507.html#ixzz0nMoaToBs




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Saturday, May 8, 2010 4:57 PM

OPERATIVE1


I've haven't seen Iron Man 2 yet, but what I've heard from most online people so far is that is worth seeing. A hell of a ride. Don Cheadle's -Rhodey is good change.

Operative1

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Monday, May 10, 2010 3:57 AM

ZEEK


I have no idea how people had trouble keeping up with that movie. It was really well done IMO. Right up there with the first. Instabuying the DVD for sure.

Select to view spoiler:



My problem was the new element. That seemed pretty dumb to me, but I'll let it slide.

The action was great. I was surprised that they didn't hit the Spiderman 3 issue of trying to cram in too many characters. They balanced it all so well.

I really liked Hammer's character. He was the perfect douche bag.

The thing I liked best was that whiplash wasn't the whole focus. I don't think he could have carried the whole movie. Combine it all together though and there were enough little things getting to Tony that it made it really interesting.


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Monday, May 10, 2010 12:35 PM

OPERATIVE1


I hope to see Iron Man 2 soon. It sounds like it's worth seeing and quite a ride.

Operative1

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Tuesday, May 11, 2010 10:46 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Just got back from seeing it and enjoyed it pretty well. For some reason, the sound in the theater I was in wasn't loud enough, IMHO. Effects were good overall.

I thought the best effect was:

Select to view spoiler:


...the shot of Gwyneth Paltrow and Scarlett Johannson, in tight dresses and heels, walking away from camera up the stairs to the Stark Expo pavillion.



BTW. did it seem to anyone else that they wanted Mickey Rourke to look like a kind'a washed-up Klingon? That's what came to mind for me.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Tuesday, May 11, 2010 11:35 AM

ZEEK


Select to view spoiler:


Indeed I think that Stark said something like "I want one" when he first met Scarlett's character. When they were walking up those stairs I was thinking "I want both".


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 11:28 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:

And Chris you better post when you've seen it this weekend. I want to know your thoughts as I know your a big fan of the first movie.




Just got back from seeing it with Sonisall.
Many script issues, mostly being that in the finale he fights another guy in armour... AGAIN.
What worked, and worked WELL for me was all the character stuff. THAT's what sets it above most superhero fare IMO. Downey, Paltrow, Cheadle...
flawless performances all around.
I loved it.
Whatever the first one is rated, I'd give the second one just a half star less for been-there-seen-that action. Otherwise, a great time will be had by most.


The stark Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:25 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


On movies, I'll go w/ Chrissy's general review, and probably go check it out tomorrow.

I've intentionally avoided catching up on much about anything w/ the story, who's in it, what villains show up, pretty much everything.

Understanding that there's so much potential w/ Tony and the story in general, only makes me brace for the inevitable disappointment. At least a little bit..... Hell, even LOTR had its flaws...






Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:26 PM

DEWRASTLER


There was only one thing in the movie I had wished they had changed, and it was the fact that they broke the "show don't tell" rule.

I wish they had shown, or at least attempted to show

Select to view spoiler:


the original fallout between Howard Stark and Vanko's father. Don't tell me that Stark ruined Vanko's life (in a way), show me. It gives Vanko's motivation to become Whiplash much more weight than a few lines of dialogue from Vanko as we see his father old and frail.



________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:31 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
On movies, I'll go w/ Chrissy's general review, and probably go check it out tomorrow.


I'm honoured. Just don't sit too close to the screen- it looks better the more details you can make out.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 1:35 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:


I wish they had shown, or at least attempted to show

Select to view spoiler:


the original fallout between Howard Stark and Vanko's father. Don't tell me that Stark ruined Vanko's life (in a way), show me. It gives Vanko's motivation to become Whiplash much more weight than a few lines of dialogue from Vanko as we see his father old and frail.





De, I'm afraid we've entered a new era where peeps tell, don't show. See the new Trek movie for a similar 'he's bad & he has his reasons, take our word for it' tac. Whatever. Maybe it's a new storytelling style emerging, ya?


The laughing Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 3:27 PM

CHRISISALL


Also, is it just me, or did the unsuccessful armour tests from other countries remind you of Robocop 2?


The laughing Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:21 PM

DEWRASTLER


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Also, is it just me, or did the unsuccessful armour tests from other countries remind you of Robocop 2?


The laughing Chrisisall




YES!

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 4:56 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Also, is it just me, or did the unsuccessful armour tests from other countries remind you of Robocop 2?




YES!


Wait- yes it IS just me, or yes you agree...?


The laughing Chrisisall


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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:09 PM

DEWRASTLER


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:
Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Also, is it just me, or did the unsuccessful armour tests from other countries remind you of Robocop 2?




YES!


Wait- yes it IS just me, or yes you agree...?




I guess that was pretty vague.

Yes, I agree. Fear not, you're not crazy. Either that, or both of us are. At least, then, you're not alone.

________________________________
People who don't care about anything will never understand the people who do

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Saturday, May 15, 2010 5:18 PM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:

Yes, I agree. Fear not, you're not crazy. Either that, or both of us are. At least, then, you're not alone.


I enjoy the company of crazies, given the proper venue, De!
Let's have at it & let slip the arc reactors of war!

Okay- bedtime.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 6:41 AM

LWAVES


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by Dewrastler:

Yes, I agree. Fear not, you're not crazy. Either that, or both of us are. At least, then, you're not alone.


I enjoy the company of crazies, given the proper venue, De!
Let's have at it & let slip the arc reactors of war!

Okay- bedtime.

The laughing Chrisisall




Only sane people think they're crazy. Crazy people don't realise they're crazy and think they sane whilst thinking everyone else is crazy.

Glad you liked Iron Man 2 and I can see what you're saying about the finale. I actually thought whiplash wasn't armoured enough. A quick burst of gunfire and he'd be down but they seemed to want to just slug it out.
Minor points in a great film.



"The greatest invention ever is not the wheel. It's the second wheel." - Rich Hall

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 9:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:+
Minor points in a great film.



And it was a great film!

Just got back and thoroughly enjoyed it! Dare I say, better than the 1st ? O.K., it wasn't perfect, and there were some minor flaws / issues I had here and there, but it was very enjoyable!

Don't recall a soundtrack I've enjoyed as much either!

Micky Ruorke , Don Cheadle were great, and by all that is holy, thank the maker for Scarlett Johnansson.



So, a random array of things which didn't sit quite well w/ me...

Select to view spoiler:




Johansson's fight moves,when she's taking out the guards at Hammer's complex. They looked fake. By that, I mean as if some of her moves were done on computer, and not actually as they were shot w/ the actors doing the moves as shown. Something seemed 'off', and I don't know why. Cool as heck looking, and I hope I'm wrong here, but with Summer ( bar scene and slaughtering Reavers ) her moves were fluid, quick and simply awesome.

Unlimited ammo w/ - hell, everything. Drones, weaponized Ironman suit....I mean, come on. Not exactly set up for a reload, are they ? That's the drawback of the Ironman suit, and it should have been pointed out more in the movie.... he IS the weapon. ( to quote Spike.... ) There's no room to carry around a ammo cache. Even if you could slap on a gun here, or a rocket launcher on the shoulders, once done, you're done, at least w/ the ordinance part of the suit.

Ivan's bird. WTF was up with that? Was it a special bird ? Did it know things ? If he cared so much about THAT bird, did he just up and leave it , alone, in his apt ? Or,if he had someone watching the bird, why didn't he just tell Hammer's men where to find it. It seemed like a silly disconnect. ( I guess there are some explanations, but it seemed odd as to how it played out. )

Can't track a phone call? When Pepper is trying to track down Ivan's call to Tony, in light of all the high tech, super fast systems and access he has - to EVERYTHING, seemed a bit of a cop out.


I've not read spoilers prior to my posting so pardon if I repeated some things, or can't think of them all at present. I think I hit most of what I had issue with, at least.

p.s. I completely agree about the Hammer character. A total D-bag! I had flashbacks of another classic weasel, Harry Ellis, from Die Hard ( poor schmuck )











Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Select to view spoiler:




Johansson's fight moves,when she's taking out the guards at Hammer's complex. They looked fake. By that, I mean as if some of her moves were done on computer, and not actually as they were shot w/ the actors doing the moves as shown.


The particular scene you refer to was a combination of stunt peeps, the actor, wirework & CGI. Some speeds were also increased in post.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:00 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by lwaves:

Minor points in a great film.




Definitely.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:13 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:The particular scene you refer to was a combination of stunt peeps, the actor, wirework & CGI. Some speeds were also increased in post.




Ahhh, then I was right, and my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. I'm not so much a fan of CGI being used like that, I must say.

I'd prefer it not be done that way. I'd also prefer to see Ms Johnansson naked..... for what it's worth.








Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:38 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


Ahhh, then I was right, and my eyes weren't playing tricks on me. I'm not so much a fan of CGI being used like that, I must say.


The CGI was mainly to erase the wires & change little things on the stunt person that looked obviously different from the actor. The things that made it look strange IMO were the artificial speed changes employed.
But it didn't bug me- it's a superhero movie aster all.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Which leads to the natural discussion....


River or Natalie, in a chick a' chick fight off?








Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 10:53 AM

CHRISISALL


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


River or Natalie, in a chick a' chick fight off?


River, unless Nat used hi-tek trickery & River was bare handed.


The laughing Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 11:00 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


River or Natalie, in a chick a' chick fight off?


River, unless Nat used hi-tek trickery & River was bare handed.


The laughing Chrisisall




Nat sure did display some wicked skills.

And she wasn't too bad at hand to hand combat, either.








Bones: "Don't 'rawr' her!"
Booth: "What? she'rawred' me first."

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 2:30 PM

OPTIMUS1998


Pardon my language in the spoilers below:

Select to view spoiler:



Yeah, that fight scene, i was seeing blur, like on a poor quality hd tv, but i was watching it in IMAX....( even with the blur i could watch a loop of that scene for hours, So fucking hot)

and the new element bit, Jarvis tells him it's impossible to synthesize, and, being Tony Stark he just KITBASHES A FUCKING PARTICLE ACCELERATOR??
come on...

i know Tony's only superpowers are intellect and ego, but shit...

and i believe the THOR movie has finished Primary shooting, should be next summer's Marvel Flick



Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
I was a Lima loser for 29 years before "glee" introduced us to the term. -ME

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Sunday, May 16, 2010 4:42 PM

CHRISISALL


So, you hated the new movie...?


The Armoured Chrisisall


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Sunday, May 16, 2010 7:01 PM

OPTIMUS1998


oh HELL no, loved the shit out of it, but that one but that one bit just kinda was a severe WTF moment for me....



Make Cartoons, Not War
- Sue Blu
I was a Lima loser for 29 years before "glee" introduced us to the term. -ME

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