Does anyone else not like Lost? by Thrawn

I like Lost somewhat, enough to keep watching (nothing else on for me at the time it's on), but I'm disappointed, and want to like it more. I guess I disagree some with the others in the thread though - I like the flashbacks for the most part (although some aren't that interesting), and I find a lot of the characters really interesting or compelling, and there are a couple of master strokes there (like when the jerk guy failed to pull off the mercy killing).

My main problem is that I have the really strong feeling that they're not really intending to solve any of the mysteries, they just want to jerk us around - like how they 'cleverly' avoided telling us which crime Kate actually did - now, even if she tells people, we'll have to wonder if she's lying, and they can keep jerking us around like that for a long time. Same with the monsters, where are they, what's going on with the transmission, etc.

My other big problem is that some of the island survival thing just doesn't really ring true - there are 48 survivors, but we only see a handful of them ever do anything, people heal way too fast from injuries (though I'll be pleasantly surprised if that happens to be part of the mystery of the island), and I doubt they'll have problems with shaving or all the other stuff that you'd expect on the island. I get the feeling that 'problems' are only going to come up when they decide to do an episode about it, that really should be going on all the time (like making sure there's enough food and water).

I'm hoping it'll get better though as it finds its legs.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6
http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:15 AM

EVILMIKE

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
My main problem is that I have the really strong feeling that they're not really intending to solve any of the mysteries, they just want to jerk us around - like how they 'cleverly' avoided telling us which crime Kate actually did - now, even if she tells people, we'll have to wonder if she's lying, and they can keep jerking us around like that for a long time. Same with the monsters, where are they, what's going on with the transmission, etc.

It will certainly be interesting to see how the show evolves. However, I think they already have had considerable payoff from resolution to some of the mysteries they have given us:

Why was Locke acting so wierd at points? Why did he say that a miracle had happened? Now we know.

Who was the man Jack saw? Now we know.

Who was the prisoner on board the airplane? Now we know.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:46 AM

EMBERS

actually I think you guys all like the show more than I do...
I've been tuning in because there is absolutely nothing else on, but I haven't been able to find the characters, plot, or mysteries in any way interesting...
I keep expecting to GET interested because of the good reviews (and I assumed the reviewers have seen more episodes than I have)....

but really, I can not see what all the excitement is about.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 6:00 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by evilmike:

It will certainly be interesting to see how the show evolves. However, I think they already have had considerable payoff from resolution to some of the mysteries they have given us:

Why was Locke acting so wierd at points? Why did he say that a miracle had happened? Now we know.

Who was the man Jack saw? Now we know.

Who was the prisoner on board the airplane? Now we know.

Yes, but those are the 'mini-mysteries'. The ones that are set up to be resolved within an episode or two. The cuffs were found in the same episode it was revealed who they belonged to. The fact that Locke said a 'miracle' happened was the episode before we found out what it was (and I guessed it in advance, because of how they used the empty wheelchair in a scene almost immediately before or after we heard about Locke's miracle.) They're not the big mysteries -what the hell is up with the island, why are there polar bears, what's the big invisible monster, where _is_ the island, etc. Maybe they'll attempt to solve them, but I get the feeling they have no intention to. The mini-mysteries are what they use to distract us from being jerked around on the bigger issues.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6
http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 6:00 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I like "Lost" so far, might not think so highly of it later on in the season however. But, the main reason I think most people like it is that compared to everything else that is on the air now it is at least interesting and intriguing. I have never watched any of the (un)reality shows and don't intend to, and have been cringing a lot lately as FOX has been promoting its new lineup during the baseball playoffs. In comparison to those, "Lost" is almost as good as "Firefly," or at least is much higher up the scale than anything else.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 6:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

but really, I can not see what all the excitement is about.

Well, the excitement is that it's something new and different and NOT another gorram reality show (or cop or lawyer or hospital show). No, it's not as good as Firefly (or Buffy or Angel - or Farscape, for that matter), but it's good enough compared to everything else that IS still on tv these days that I'm going to continue to watch it. I mean, what ARE the other choices? Right - more gorram reality shows - or a dozen different versions of C.S.I. and Law and Order.

Also, by comparing Lost to Firefly, or any of Joss' shows, you have to realize that that is setting the bar VERY high. If every new show had to be as good as Firefly for me to watch it, I'd end up never watching any new shows again - ever.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:08 AM

JEBBYPAL

I think part of the problem is that Lost doesn't fit any single genre and that this problem rings true more than any other show that this has been attributed to. I mean you at least knew that Firefly was a space western and that gave you some preconcieved ideas about stereotypes. Lost though...it's almost trying to be too much...drama/horror/mystery/survival.

I've been trying to follow it, but so far haven't loved it. And I do think they are overdoing the shaky camera thing way too much. There's a point at which that durn "discovered footage" technique just becomes distracting.

As far as 48 characters, thank god they aren't focusing on all of them. already w/ the core cast, you almost have a larger cast than with Firefly or Buffy. So far we only know the back stories of what, 3 or 4 of them? They need that monster to kill a bunch so that they don't have to worry about trying to make it look like forty or so people are hanging around doing nothing.

so far Veronica Mars is the only new show to debut that I'll be crushed if its canceled. Well that and LAX.

The Strawberry Monkey who defends tight pants everywhere!

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:21 AM

Actually, about the 48 characters, as Jack said in the last episode after the woman drowned - It's 47 now. I think a lot of them are there just as cannon fodder. The story will probably focus on the core group that they've been showing and the others will be killed off as needed to further the story. Kind of like when they used to always have the odd crewman in the landing party on the original Star Trek. Whenever they showed that guy, you KNEW he was going to get killed - but it didn't detract from the story. I don't think it will on Lost, either.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 8:47 AM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
It could be a very human drama about survival on the edge....

I care about how they are surviving and about their interactions. Generally, there are a few scenes of that, and a whoooole bunch of useless and often surreal development that accomplishes nothing but make the show flagrantly unrealistic.

It's frustrating.

As one of the other posters here said, I think your disappointmet stems from the fact that you wanted (or perhaps "expected" is a better word) a different premise. You were looking for a realistic survival story. The makers of the show aimed for a surrealistic fantasy set in a survival environment.

It would be as if you tuned in to the "X Files" and were disappointed that it wasn't a police procedural. The "X Files" was intended to be a SF/Fantasy story set in a police procedural environment.

I'm not saying that the kind of show you were expecting wouldn't a fascinating story by itself... it truly would be an excellent storyline. But its not the one that the show's creators want the tell. As long as you want the show to be different from what it was intended to be, I suspect it will completely fail to satisfy you.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 2:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:

The makers of the show aimed for a surrealistic fantasy set in a survival environment.

It would be as if you tuned in to the "X Files" and were disappointed that it wasn't a police procedural. The "X Files" was intended to be a SF/Fantasy story set in a police procedural environment.

Both a good description and a good comparison. I think that sums up the situation completely.

What I like about this show is that it has the audacity to be different than everything else on tv right now. Every other show, be it reality schlock or actual programming, is trying to copy something else that's already on the air. Remember when Buffy first came out? Part of what made it great was that it was innovative and original. Lost may not be as innovative and original as Buffy, but at least it makes the attempt. That alone makes it worth watching.

EDIT: Personally, I think that ABC should be given some credit for taking the chance on airing this show. It IS a risky move for them specifically because this show is NOT the typical formulaic carbon copy that they know would bring in the ratings.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 3:20 PM

THRAWN

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Thrawn:
It could be a very human drama about survival on the edge....

I care about how they are surviving and about their interactions. Generally, there are a few scenes of that, and a whoooole bunch of useless and often surreal development that accomplishes nothing but make the show flagrantly unrealistic.

It's frustrating.

As one of the other posters here said, I think your disappointmet stems from the fact that you wanted (or perhaps "expected" is a better word) a different premise. You were looking for a realistic survival story. The makers of the show aimed for a surrealistic fantasy set in a survival environment.

It would be as if you tuned in to the "X Files" and were disappointed that it wasn't a police procedural. The "X Files" was intended to be a SF/Fantasy story set in a police procedural environment.

I'm not saying that the kind of show you were expecting wouldn't a fascinating story by itself... it truly would be an excellent storyline. But its not the one that the show's creators want the tell. As long as you want the show to be different from what it was intended to be, I suspect it will completely fail to satisfy you.

I see your point, and I understand what you mean. The pilot, though, gave every indication of being realistic. I mean, sure, there was the monster in the forest, but I was taking that to just be another danger on the island, a government research thing or something they'd stumble on eventually. That was a little over the edge, but I was accepting it as something to make the show more long-lived - after they've gotten over starting to survive, there'd be a mystery to accomplish.

But everything after the pilot has just gone further in the direction of surreality and inexplicable miracles. Can you see what I mean, here? If the show were like the pilot, I'd like the show. My dissappointment does not arise from the fact that I dislike the premise of the show period but rather from the fact that I started watching a show with a different premise and it switched on me to one I don't like as much.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 4:56 PM

AERRIN

Quote:

As one of the other posters here said, I think your disappointmet stems from the fact that you wanted (or perhaps "expected" is a better word) a different premise. You were looking for a realistic survival story. The makers of the show aimed for a surrealistic fantasy set in a survival environment.

I actually really love the surreal aspect of the island's mystery - I just wish they focused on it a bit more than on the flashbacks.

However. That said. After poking around a bit and entertaining myself on Lost sights, I found a quote that mentions that

(minorly spoilerish)

Select to view spoiler:

Many of the characters had lives that were intertwined in unexpected and interesting ways before they ever got on the plane, and that the story was meant to be, in fact, two parallel stories - one told in 'real time' and the other told in flashbacks.

Knowing that - that is, that the heavy emphasis on flashbacks is planned and intentional rather than just slightly sloppy storytelling - entices me to stick with it and see if things don't get more solid.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 5:37 PM

DANFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by Aerrin:
I actually really love the surreal aspect of the island's mystery

I agree. I had heard enough buzz about the storyline prior to its premiere that I wasn't struck with the "bait and switch" feeling that Thrawn got from the series. I tuned in to this show expecting that it would go in directions I didn't expect (sounds contradictory, I know, but there it is). Thus far, it has delivered with enough style to keep me coming back.

I'm still test driving the series... reserving final judgement until I see how they begin to stitch some of the (for now) apparently unrelated storylines together. But I like what I see so far.

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Sunday, October 24, 2004 7:27 PM

THRAWN

Quote:
Originally posted by danfan:
Quote:
Originally posted by Aerrin:
I actually really love the surreal aspect of the island's mystery

I agree. I had heard enough buzz about the storyline prior to its premiere that I wasn't struck with the "bait and switch" feeling that Thrawn got from the series. I tuned in to this show expecting that it would go in directions I didn't expect (sounds contradictory, I know, but there it is). Thus far, it has delivered with enough style to keep me coming back.

I'm still test driving the series... reserving final judgement until I see how they begin to stitch some of the (for now) apparently unrelated storylines together. But I like what I see so far.

I think I might like it once I get used to the direction its going. I dunno. Describing it as "bait and switch" is pretty good - I hadn't thought of that, but that's exactly right. I feel like they dangled fascinating plots in front of us at the beginning and then replaced it all with a completely different kind of character development.

I think I'll at least watch until Charlie runs out of drugs, and whatever-that-girl's-name-is gives birth. I was looking forward to those as real sources of drama; maybe they'll actually deliver.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:00 AM

For those looking for the more "survival" bent stories.... keep in mind, in show space-time, they actually haven't even been there that long. Each episode has been roughly equivalent to a full day - that makes five, I think. Less than a week. The show is practically still running in pilot mode - all setup and introduction, because the regular routine hasn't hit yet (you can see the outlines of it in the last episode - the water trips will be a routine hazard). We can expect to see cannibalism next season at that rate.

Or maybe not - there weren't that many little piggies left to slaughter, were there?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:04 AM

PIZMOBEACH

... fully loaded, safety off...

How long before F*X comes out with "My Fat Obnoxious Bachelor Swan Billionaire is Lost..."

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Monday, October 25, 2004 5:51 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
For those looking for the more "survival" bent stories.... keep in mind, in show space-time, they actually haven't even been there that long. Each episode has been roughly equivalent to a full day - that makes five, I think. Less than a week. The show is practically still running in pilot mode - all setup and introduction, because the regular routine hasn't hit yet (you can see the outlines of it in the last episode - the water trips will be a routine hazard). We can expect to see cannibalism next season at that rate.

Or maybe not - there weren't that many little piggies left to slaughter, were there?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

Radhil makes a very good point. While "we", the viewers, are now several weeks into the series, in the show's time frame... - I think that Jack, in the most recent episode, said they had now been there for six days.

I think we have to make an adjustment to their time frame - kind of like when watching 24 - knowing that each episode is one hour of one day even though it takes an eight months to play out in tv time. On Lost, at least so far, it appears that each episode represents one day and they are not skipping time in between episodes like many shows do.

Good observation by Radhil.

Apathy on the Rise. No One Cares.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 6:32 AM

FEMALEJAYNE

I miss tv that has a plot. What is wrong with surprising the aduience with plosiable situations?

"When I cease to break my wings on the faultiness of things. When I learn that comprimes wait behind every hardly open gate. when I can look life in the eye and have grown calm and coldly wise. I will have learned the truth and in exchance it will have taken my youth"~Sarah Teasdale

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Monday, October 25, 2004 6:35 AM

SNIPER

I think that the main thing isn't the monster: it's the people in the show that counts. Which I'm happy with, we're not getting another Jurassic Park or something, but a very strong character drama with some very fantastic elements.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 6:41 AM

RHYMEPHILE

Thank God for Lost, is what I say. Otherwise there would be nothing on TV to watch. I do enjoy Veronica Mars as well, like whomever mentioned it in the thread above. And I guess I'll force myself to watch The Mountain if James Marsters becomes a regular. I heard they liked his performance. But other than that, there's nothing on. I find myself taping Angel from TNT and watching that at night.

I find the Lost flashbacks interesting to a degree. I could have done with less of Kate's weird Australian sheep ranch escape.

I hope the Invisi-Monster eats a whole bunch of people! That will make for some good drama, a bit more interesting than the typical stranded-on-an-island stuff. If I wanted to watch what people do to survive I'd watch some crap like Survivor. I'm happy with them revealing the characters' backgrounds, because I find that more compelling than hunting for water.

My theory on the empty coffin: Jack was arguing with the airline representative about shipping his father's body back. I think he had the coffin on the plane, but they wouldn't allow him to bring the body back, thus it was empty.

But the burning questions I have:

I read in TV Guide that the producers can get around everyone wearing the same clothes by saying the survivors went through everyone's suitcases. What about poor Hurley? I love Hurley! Perhaps he'll have to sew something together. I'm getting a vision of Homer Simpson in his muumuu and hat.

What ever happened to the dude they pulled out from under the still-turning turbine that had his leg chopped off? He must have died. They never mentioned it though.

Wouldn't Locke have had some atrophy of his leg muscles? He said he was in the wheelchair for four years -- you don't just get up and walk after four years of not moving your legs. Miracle, okay, but walking after sitting for four years, I don't think so.

It should be interesting to see when it comes time for Claire to give birth. But she's eight months along, so theoretically that won't happen until next season maybe. And I never knew Emilie de Ravin was Australian. She did a really good not-Australian when she was on Roswell. *sigh* Roswell. I miss that show.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"My office! Burgled! Plundered! Purloined! Ha ha ha...loins."

-- Phil Sebben, Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law

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Monday, October 25, 2004 7:01 AM

DANFAN

From a storytelling point of view, there may be only two main reasons to create a strong fantasy element in a story:

1) To create an extreme crucible in which to test your characters to their limits (e.g., will Ripley survive the alien and escape the ship or will she break?).

2) To distract your audience from the fact that you don't have the skill to tell a decent story.

I so hope that Lost fits into the former category. I see so little worth watching this season...

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Monday, October 25, 2004 7:18 AM

Just as a minor point, I think that, except for the pilot (both parts of it, it was intended as a two hour episode), which all took place in the first few hours, the official timeline is that every episode is intended to take place over two days.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6
http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Monday, October 25, 2004 8:08 AM

SHINY

Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
They're not the big mysteries -what the hell is up with the island, why are there polar bears, what's the big invisible monster, where _is_ the island, etc. Maybe they'll attempt to solve them, but I get the feeling they have no intention to. The mini-mysteries are what they use to distract us from being jerked around on the bigger issues.

I'm worried about this as well. It's the big mysteries that keep you coming back, so it's not in their interest to solve them. And if they do solve them, they have to invent new ones to replace them. It's hard to imagine keeping this up for more than a season or two before it gets real old...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
They're not the big mysteries -what the hell is up with the island, why are there polar bears, what's the big invisible monster, where _is_ the island, etc. Maybe they'll attempt to solve them, but I get the feeling they have no intention to. The mini-mysteries are what they use to distract us from being jerked around on the bigger issues.

I'm worried about this as well. It's the big mysteries that keep you coming back, so it's not in their interest to solve them. And if they do solve them, they have to invent new ones to replace them. It's hard to imagine keeping this up for more than a season or two before it gets real old...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

This viewpoint has me scratching my head. Mulder didn't find his sister or his aliens in the first half of the first season of X-Files, did he (ok, bad example, that sucked in the end)? John didn't make it back to Earth early on in Farscape, did he? Did Picard run into Q and smack him down, ever?

The big mysteries are for big episodes. Season openers and closers, big momentum changers, those kinda weeks. We've had five. I don't see how it could be time yet.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, October 25, 2004 11:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Radhil:
Quote:
Originally posted by Shiny:
Quote:
Originally posted by StarPilotGrainger:
They're not the big mysteries -what the hell is up with the island, why are there polar bears, what's the big invisible monster, where _is_ the island, etc. Maybe they'll attempt to solve them, but I get the feeling they have no intention to. The mini-mysteries are what they use to distract us from being jerked around on the bigger issues.

I'm worried about this as well. It's the big mysteries that keep you coming back, so it's not in their interest to solve them. And if they do solve them, they have to invent new ones to replace them. It's hard to imagine keeping this up for more than a season or two before it gets real old...

Jayne, your mouth is talkin. Might want to look into that.

This viewpoint has me scratching my head. Mulder didn't find his sister or his aliens in the first half of the first season of X-Files, did he (ok, bad example, that sucked in the end)? John didn't make it back to Earth early on in Farscape, did he? Did Picard run into Q and smack him down, ever?

The big mysteries are for big episodes. Season openers and closers, big momentum changers, those kinda weeks. We've had five. I don't see how it could be time yet.

I think you're missing a little of the intent behind the criticism.

It's fine to have big mysteries and not deal with them right away. But there are right ways and wrong ways to do it so it doesn't feel like a cheat. In X-Files, you don't have them confront the mysteries every episode - they're mobile (and, in fact, that's a pretty bad example because by the end, it was clear that the creators never had a clue what they were doing, and the mysteries were resolved on the fly or tossed away without caring if they made sense with the clues they left behind - and they made the mistake of just piling on more mysteries). With John in Farscape, there really was no way for him to get even close to getting home for a good while, they didn't make it a focus - the focus was surviving the current situation... when getting home _did_ become a valid goal, they handled it quite well... a slow buildup of him getting closer and closer to it, and finally, not at the series finale, but in the course of the series, he actually _made_ it home and they dealt with the consequences of that.

Here, they're _constantly_ confronted with the mysteries. They have no real mobility, all they can do is go somewhere else on the island, which is what the whole mystery is about. It's like if every episode of X-Files was Mulder following a lead about his sister (or even dealing with aliens). There's a big invisible monster wandering around and showing up in every other episode almost. If they keep jerking us around with 'Hey, maybe we'll find out what this is all about' and then say, 'Ha-ha, fooled you, no you won't, try again next week! Oh, and here's another mystery, too!' that's a bad thing.
Again, it's only a feeling, but I get a strong feeling that's how they're going to deal with the big mysteries, so by the point that they finally reveal them, I won't care anymore.

I want them to have a plan in advance, not only for what the mysteries are, but _when_ to reveal them and where the show goes from there, and the answer shouldn't be 'in the very last episode'. (Also, binding shows too closely to a season schedule gives a certain predictability of its own. I remember in Alias, there were times towards the end when I knew 'okay, so and so isn't going to be discovered here even though it seems like s/he might, because it's not the season finale.'. Their one great coup in that regard was when they dismantled SD-6 in one middle of the season episode. Never saw it coming.

I hope they do have this plan. When I first started watching the show, I came up with a couple plans of how I'd deal with the whole mystery, so I know it can be done. I just have the feeling, so far, that they don't.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6
http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Monday, October 25, 2004 1:44 PM

Good points all. They encourage more muttering from me.

Quote:
Here, they're _constantly_ confronted with the mysteries. They have no real mobility, all they can do is go somewhere else on the island, which is what the whole mystery is about. It's like if every episode of X-Files was Mulder following a lead about his sister (or even dealing with aliens).

Allright, let me suggest a perspective shift. To me, the island is a non-issue. The island is Mysterious (do not forget the capitals here). The island is Strange. The island is quite possibly Unreal. There is a mystery to it, and I have no doubt that there will be an answer to it... eventually. The point of it is not to have a mystery though. The point of it is setting. So don't let that define the show.

In X-Files (lets ignore everything past where it was apparent that the creators had no idea WTF they were doing), you had the central conspiracy - Mr. Cigarettes, Mulder's sister, 99 angles of backstory - but day to day, it was the paranormal freaky stuff that set the show. Did we ever question why there was freaky paranormal stuff? No. Extrapolate to Farscape - did we ever question why there were aliens and ships and wormholes, why the bad guys looked human even? No (crazily enough, the show provides the latter answer in the mini, if you were paying attention - but following my thread here, it's not central at all). The point of these shows is watching the people in it act, react, and overreact.

I don't care much about the ending of the mystery of the island - like you, I hope it'll be good, but that's not why I watch the show. If plot reveleations is all it was, I would've stopped watching Alias last year, when it got utterly silly (I did come close). I kept watching not to see what it all was about, but to see what happened to it's heroine. To see what she did. The whole Rambaldi mythology thing could turn out to be some elaborate rich man's hoax for all I care, a McGuffin of the highest order.

The island is backdrop. The island does have it's mystery and that is central to the show - but only as it reflects itself on the characters. All the shows that have really screwed up their plots and their characters have done so when the mysteries took center stage, became the important part - X-Files did this, I believe Twin Peaks did this, the failed John Doe did this, Dark Angel flirted with it (regrettably it found it's feet only to get axed for different reasons), La Femme Nikita was drowning with it at points, Alias started to do this and may yet recover. If the characters are written well, if their mysteries are revealed well (my opinion is they damn well are), you can be assured that eventaully, the island (for what is setting and plot but the unspoken characters), when it comes time for it to step up, will be written well too.

This is ranting, I'm aware. Not sure how to take an axe to it and shorten it though.

Quote:
I hope they do have this plan. When I first started watching the show, I came up with a couple plans of how I'd deal with the whole mystery, so I know it can be done. I just have the feeling, so far, that they don't.

The plan is easy. "OK, they're all really dead, and this is Purg. Or the island's a reflection, and the little kid likes dinos. When's lunch?" It's the execution that is key. Has the show given you any reason to doubt it can execute?

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, October 25, 2004 2:40 PM

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Originally posted by Radhil:
Allright, let me suggest a perspective shift. To me, the island is a non-issue. The island is Mysterious (do not forget the capitals here). The island is Strange. The island is quite possibly Unreal. There is a mystery to it, and I have no doubt that there will be an answer to it... eventually. The point of it is not to have a mystery though. The point of it is setting. So don't let that define the show.

I think the problem is this is that's what the _show_ seems to be doing. If they just crashed on the island, radio was out and they knew they had little hope of rescue, hell, even gave the 16 year-old message, I could look past it, and say it's not defining the show. The show could then be off the characters and how they react to the situation.

But they constantly give us the Invisible Monsters, and only show us reactions, with the people who see it not talkinga bout it. We see every episode the things about their situation that just don't make sense, like Polar Bears, the miracle of Locke, etc. _They_'re shoving it in our faces, and inviting us to wonder at the mystery behind it all.

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In X-Files (lets ignore everything past where it was apparent that the creators had no idea WTF they were doing), you had the central conspiracy - Mr. Cigarettes, Mulder's sister, 99 angles of backstory - but day to day, it was the paranormal freaky stuff that set the show. Did we ever question why there was freaky paranormal stuff?

Yes, but that's a convention of the series, that the paranormal exists - they didn't posit it as being all one being mystery tied together. Sure, you can sort of say the same with Lost, but to me, they're _playing off_ the mystery. They're like what the X-Files would be if the Conspiracy was every single episode. They're not letting us get away from it, because there's no where else to go.

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I don't care much about the ending of the mystery of the island - like you, I hope it'll be good, but that's not why I watch the show. If plot reveleations is all it was, I would've stopped watching Alias last year, when it got utterly silly (I did come close). I kept watching not to see what it all was about, but to see what happened to it's heroine. To see what she did. The whole Rambaldi mythology thing could turn out to be some elaborate rich man's hoax for all I care, a McGuffin of the highest order.

I disagree somewhat. I allow wide latitude for
the resolution for plots, but the resolution does have to make sense, and I have to have the sense that they knew the resolution when they started (it's one thing to start writing a story without knowing where you're going, it's another to start showing it to your audience). It is about the characters, but sometimes, and this is what I'm fearful of, the characters actions become used to service the mystery, rather than the mystery itself being used to illuminate the characters.
If a character does something, not because it's what their character would do, but because if they didn't, the mystery is blown, then that's bad, IMHO.

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The island is backdrop. The island does have it's mystery and that is central to the show - but only as it reflects itself on the characters. All the shows that have really screwed up their plots and their characters have done so when the mysteries took center stage, became the important part - X-Files did this, I believe Twin Peaks did this, the failed John Doe did this, Dark Angel flirted with it (regrettably it found it's feet only to get axed for different reasons), La Femme Nikita was drowning with it at points, Alias started to do this and may yet recover. If the characters are written well, if their mysteries are revealed well (my opinion is they damn well are), you can be assured that eventaully, the island (for what is setting and plot but the unspoken characters), when it comes time for it to step up, will be written well too.

Perhaps, perhaps. However, I don't think many of these shows failed because their mystery took centre stage. I think they failed because the mystery took centre stage _and the writers didn't know what they were going to do after it was solved_. (Even right at the end with X-Files there were a fair mix of just random mystery-of-the-week episodes). The mystery was the show. If they could move the mystery off panel, that's one thing, but when you're stuck on an island, that's not easy to do, and the producers don't seem _willing_ to do it, and I don't think they know what to do when it's solved.

As a counter example, Farscape seemed, at times, to drag out its plots, but they knew when to finish a plot, and start another. Stargate's another show that does this well, keeping plot elements simmering, building to a boil, and then, when resolved, being replaced by other problems... keeping several different problems going at once.

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The plan is easy. "OK, they're all really dead, and this is Purg. Or the island's a reflection, and the little kid likes dinos. When's lunch?" It's the execution that is key. Has the show given you any reason to doubt it can execute?

Well, aside from my cynical nature towards TV in general at the moment, there are two.

1) JJ Abrahms. He's the creator and showrunner. But, frankly, Alias has disappointed me lately with execution particularly in the areas of 'not giving me the feeling they know where they're going' and 'they're jerking us around too much'. It may be wrong to hold it against him, but hey, they're using his name to sell the show, so they should expect it.

2) The Marshall in Lost's first couple episodes. I've mentioned it before. When he woke up, he told Jack that Kate was dangerous, and shouldn't be trusted. Then, despite him asking repeatedly what she'd done, he refused to answer, and instead met with her privately and made it clear he wanted to die, and he did so before he could say anything else.

Now, assuming they don't have a devilishly clever reason why he didn't bother to tell Jake (which we're probably not going to hear about for some time, at least not until we ever find out what Kate's crime actually was, so I think it's fair for the time being to say he doesn't), then this is just a stupid hard to buy sequence of events just to keep that mystery intact and mess with the audience's expectations. If it was important enough to warn Jack about her being a criminal, why not tell him the rest? He had the time and energy. Even if he wanted someone to kill him, he could have told him _something_.

As I said, these are only worries at the moment - for now, I'm still enjoying the show for the most part. But I can't help but be worried.

Star Pilot Grainger
"Remember, the enemy's gate is down."
LJ: http://www.livejournal.com/users/newnumber6
http://www.unreachablestar.net - Comics & SF News/Reviews/Opinions

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Monday, October 25, 2004 3:40 PM

MELEAUX

I think you guys are stressing too much. It's a diversion. A bit of escapism. A pleasant way to pass an hour. You've got beautiful people on a beautiful island and an unusual storyline. A bit intriging. It doesn't have to be disected and critiqued to death. I like it. It is the first time since my beloved Firefly went off the air that I have thought about what an upcoming episode
of a show might be like. Oh yea-
I think the monster is a telepathic, alien, robotic dinasaur!

She understands, she doesn't comprehend

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:10 PM

NEUTRINOLAD

The problem with Lost, as I see it, is that it's on American television. Which means indefinite length, which means nothing can ever really happen. If it were, say, 30 episodes to tell a complete story, then the characters could undergo real change and the plot could really advance. But that means the series would have to have a definite beginning-middle-end structure, which is totally contrary to US television practice.
But maybe they'll surprise us, who knows?

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:50 PM

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It's a diversion. A bit of escapism. A pleasant way to pass an hour.

What makes you think this conversation is any different?

I'm escaping bills through BSing, personally.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, October 25, 2004 4:59 PM

LEGALBEGAL

For all of you who are worried about the supernatural asspects of the show I have read that the shows creators and producers are going to resolve the big mysteries by the end of the season.

Once we know whats going on, all of the supernatural stuff will be backdrop to a great survival story. But, first they have to set everything up. The way I see it if we give the show some time and it will get better.

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Monday, October 25, 2004 5:01 PM

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The problem with Lost, as I see it, is that it's on American television. Which means indefinite length, which means nothing can ever really happen.

Well, that's kinda cynical standing on a website dedicated to an American show.

American TV is mass produced and cookie-cutter most of the time. This disheartening fact is true. It is, however, not required standards & practices.

Case in point: Look up Babylon 5. That one was planned with full beginning-to-end plot structure from the start.

Radhil Trebors
Persona Under Construction

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Monday, October 25, 2004 5:21 PM