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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I tried to watch Buffy the vampire Slayer...I really did because there seems to be an aweful lot of people who like it, but I have to say...its not very good at all. What makes it so popular?

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Originally posted by liminalosity:
Yeah, what he said.

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Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Hey, I hope you're not talking about me, because I'm not a member of the minority sex.

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Originally posted by Eleanor:
I started watching Buffy because of people on this board--I thought it would be worth a shot since it is from Joss, after all. I find that I can enjoy it as long as I don't take it seriously. Every episode leaves me with a "yes-but what about----?" question, and it's pretty easy to find plot holes. But I just take it as lightweight entertainment and don't worry about that. The dialogue is great, and if some of the actors aren't exactly perfect, they improve over time. (I'm only on season 2 right now, though.)

Admittedly, it doesn't compare to Firefly at ALL. I can react to Firefly as though it were real. I can't really get that into any story based on a supernatural premise, and I always found vampires the least interesting of all nonexistant beasties. But I can enjoy Buffy on a shallow, fun level.

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Originally posted by PurpleBelly:
People like shows about sex and drugs. Those people that get BtVS is about sex and drugs like it -- those that don't, don't.

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...Well you are only midway through S2 right now so the best is certainly yet to come.

Buffy tells stories that all people can relate to at one time or another through metaphor. No episode is as it seems on the surface. If you think it is then you are not seeing the forest for the trees.

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Trust me everything you love about Firefly is present in Buffy in one way or another.

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Originally posted by liminalosity:

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Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:
Hey, I hope you're not talking about me, because I'm not a member of the minority sex.

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OMG! How sexist of my brain! Bad brain, bad!

....at least I wasn't visiting your intentions

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much.

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Originally posted by Cybersnark:
For those who don't like the high school aspects, that starts to drop off around season. . . 5? 6? Whenever, but they do graduate and end up having to face adulthood.

And, frankly, anyone who claims to have gotten through high school without being traumatized and/or mentally scarred is probably lying, so there should be at least some sympathy. (Unless you were lucky enough to be one of the Cool Kids, in which case. . . well, just go away. ;) )

Plus, even in the high school days, there's Giles, who could just about carry his own show (especially with Xander as his comedic sidekick).

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I think it's hard on those of us who's introduction to Joss was Firefly. That show is the result of all the experience Joss gained by doing the first two shows. It is very polished and well written. Better yet, it is very well directed and the 'Verse seems to follow a stricter guideline of rules.

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I simply don't understand how trash like Buffy stayed on the air for so long and primo shows like Firefly gets the axe in short order after only 14 episodes; it numbs the mind.

The fact that Buffy the vampire Slayer has such a huge following also blows me away; what's the matter with you people? This show is meant for pre-puberty types, that's the only thing I can think of that would make it popular. I can't imagine anyone over 18 liking it very much.

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Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:

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Imaleafonthewind, it sounds like you haven’t finished season one yet. I’m glad you plan to stick it out, because the first season of any Whedon show is always the shakiest, with them still figuring out all the dynamics. (Think about that for a moment. It’s a trend in all Whedon shows, which means that had “Firefly” continued, it would have gotten even better its sophomore year and the browncoats would be warning prospective converts that “you have to get through season one before you really get to the good stuff.” Although the 14 episodes we have are all brilliant, they would seem weak in comparison to later seasons. Damn FOX!)

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If Firefly were to get any better I think my head would explode. But that's just me. I dunno why but for some reason that show (and movie) clicked with me like no television show ever has before. I generally tend to not be a TV guy because I feel that it never quite manages to live up to the quality of a film, but Firefly seems to be the exception to the rule for me. The first couple of seasons of West Wing were up there, but hey, how can the white house compete with spaceships (heh heh)?

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As for “Prophecy Girl,” that was Joss’ directorial debut. He’s described BtVS as something of a film school the public could watch because he was using the series to learn how to direct (and later other writers on the show got into the director’s chair, too, and did great things). “Prophecy Girl” is probably the best ep of season and was a sign of better things to come in the next season. In the first season, Joss only really had two good writers, himself & David Greenwalt, resulting in some less-than-stellar episodes. He also had to deal with directors who really didn’t know how to handle the material--the Joss usual of having scenes shift from one genre to another; drama to horror to comedy. Very difficult to light and film a scene that has to be scary, then funny, then scary, then dramatic. And the directors weren’t entirely receptive to his suggestions because, until “Prophecy Girl,” he’d never directed before (and he’d never run a show before, either). So, there will be definite improvement in the next season. And tell me again about the “bad directing” once you’ve seen “Hush” and “Restless;” once Whedon and the writers get control over direction things get really brilliant. As for the “conveniences” you mention, I’m not sure what you mean but I can guess about a couple of them (let me know if I’m off). In the two part premiere, Joss establishes that people rationalize away anything that challenges their perception of what is “real.” Some people have trouble with that idea, but I personally think it makes perfect sense. Folks see something weird but shake it off as a trick of the light all the time; it’s just that idea taken a little further. It’s also a classic device of horror, the people unable to see the monsters until it’s too late. It is also a metaphor into the teen mindset; the parents and adults (except Giles) are basically clueless about how the real world works but the teens see reality for what it is. And if you’re wondering why the police aren’t more on top of things, wait until Seasons Two and Three; they explain the situation much better.

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Thanks for explaining this stuff. You seem to know where I'm coming from with my two cents. Yeah, I'm definitely looking forward to watching the one that Joss directed. I get the feeling that even though it's his first time directing, he knows what he wants and what is lost in translation between him and the other directors will no longer be a problem. I swear, as I watch them I sit there thinking "oh, that's a clever line - so Joss - but boy the director really failed to get the actor to pull it off." I have total confidence that it will get continually better, so forward I go.

As for the conveniences, I'm referring to much more simplistic things. Nothing so deep I don't think. And they don't make me hate the show; they just make me laugh. Partly it's Joss learning, partly it's the restrictions of a small budget. I get it, but it's still funny to me. I get the feeling that as I watch Joss get more streamlined in creating the show that these little things will start to dissappear.

So, examples: It's just funny how Buffy always seems to not be in class. It's convenient that in chemistry class they are using the exact ingredients that they need for their spell or whatever. Convenient that their friend just happens to have a parking space right out on the front curb of the school so that he can finish his quick line of dialogue and then jump right in his car and drive away. Convenient that the demon in the computer is able to find a manufacturing plant so close to the school where he can convince people to make a stunningly advanced robot - that looks like the demon. Oh, and soooo convenient that right outside the gates of said manufacturing plant there just happens to be a payphone. That one really cracked me up.

Convenient how, with vampires and demons and whatnot all over the world, there only needs to be one slayer and she just happens to go to school right where the mouth of hell is supposed to open up. As far as one slayer goes, I think that's some bad planning on the good guy's part. I think I would try to have a few more; say, several hundred or so? And maybe make them older than teenagers? But hey, I know that the show is about the little blond girl who could, so I get it. And where are all the parents in this town? I love how they're just never around. And I love how these high school kids seem to have both the time and freedom to go to the club every single night.

Convenient that the demons or whatever the feature creature is for the episode, seem to onle become a nuisance one at a time. She never has to face like a hundred of them at once. Seems to me that if all the vampires attacked her at once they would squash her with sheer numbers. I'm sure there's some explination for that though - also conventient. Convenient that the master vampire always seems to have another "greatest" vampire to attack Buffy and convenient that the Watcher is always able to find the reference needed for Buffy to save the day.

Now remember, this isn't meant to be bashing, but these thing stick out to me - they draw attention to themselves. And like I said, I predict that as Joss gets more streamlined with the creative process these things will start to dissappear. He'll develope the ability to address these things and to problem solve as well as he writes dialogue. To me the proof of this is in Firefly.

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And your comment of “a stricter guideline of rules” is interesting. The Buffyverse does have a strict set of rules (see www.atpobtvs.com for the Metaphysics section), the thing is that the rules basically allow virtually anything to be possible--one way or another. But there are still very strict rules. Vampires can and can’t do certain things. Magic can and can’t do certain things (can’t heal, can’t resurrect after a “natural death”). Prophecies always come true--but they can be manipulated. And there is some other stuff, too.

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I guess what I mean is that from what I've heard about Buffy, there really is no limit - time travel, clones, robots, whatever. In Firefly he really seems to be constraining himself to more familiar territory. Sure flying through space and all that is pure fiction, but he seems to be limiting himself there. Those limitations help keep the show "familiar", if you will, to the world we know and therefore keep it much more "believable" to the regular audience. No beaming anybody up, no androids, no time travel, no clones, and thankfully (due to the restrictions of television budgets) no aliens. Firefly is a Sci-Fi show, no doubt, but he's done everything he can to take the sci-fi out of it and let it be a good ol' western. And it works perfectly.

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Finally, I really recommend that both of you, Imaleafonthewind and River6213, listen to Joss’ commentaries for the Buffy DVDs--if you haven’t already. He really elaborates on things much better and is his usual entertaining self. I really recommend in the early seasons, the commentary for “Welcome to the Hellmouth”/“The Harvest” in Season One and “Innocence” in Season Two. Those really cut to the heart of what the show is about. For River6213, the commentaries for “Hush” and “Restless” in Season Four are musts. Those two eps are key to Whedon’s evolution as a director and a storyteller, his explanation of the eps and the process of writing them is fascinating.

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I intend to listen to all the commentary tracks. I actually started to listen to one and they were spewing with the spoilers so I figured I better watch all the episodes in the season first, then go back and listen to the commentaries. The commentaries is actually what I'm looking forward to the most.

Again, thanks for your imput here. Much appreciated. I will stick through til the end of season 3 at the least and feel confident that it will get better and better, and I've always got my Firefly set to watch if I need a reminder.

"I don't wanna explode."

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Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:

If I had started with season 1 I might have given it up as another 'Charmed' knock-off.

I can't believe that no ones picked up on this but charmed was a knock of of buffy. Buffy predates charmed by about two seasons.

I love Buffy but I personally like to pretend that most of season six never existed and I haven't seen most of season seven yet. any episode with Angelus in is always worth watching. the last half of season two is the best.

She made me feel human, thats not something you just forget

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! I'll never say anything bad about BTVS again okay???

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Originally posted by RiveR6213:
I'm sorry, sorry, sorry! I'll never say anything bad about BTVS again okay???

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Originally posted by iatne:

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Originally posted by VisitingMyIntentions:

If I had started with season 1 I might have given it up as another 'Charmed' knock-off.

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I can't believe that no ones picked up on this but charmed was a knock of of buffy. Buffy predates charmed by about two seasons.

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