Renouncing my ways... by deepgirl187

Spike, Spike, Spike, and more Spike. Need I say more?

This was the first season finale I've watched in a while that didn't leave me fuming. Joss has this wonderful ability to resolve plot hooks while still leaving room for future stories. Then again, if you live in fear of being cancelled, it's a necessary skill.

I'm officially addicted to Buffy. I'm talking a full-blown, need rehab jones here. I watched the last disc in one day, then put it in the mail that same day so I could get the next disc sooner. And I'll probably watch that one in one day, so I can get another one for the weekend. Joss help me.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Monday, August 7, 2006 5:43 AM

Just be open to radical gear-changes, and you'll love it to the end like I did.

Chrisbot

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Monday, August 7, 2006 5:47 AM

Like the whole Willow-becoming-evil-thing I keep hearing about?

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Monday, August 7, 2006 7:40 AM

Among others.
Let me save you some time, and maybe money. If you can't buy the Chosen collection, then just buy season 3, rent 4, 5, and 6- then buy 7.

Then you can backtrack and purchase any other seasons (like 2) that you see fit to own.
But for my money, 3 and 7 are the must-owns.

Happy slaying Chrisisall

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Monday, August 7, 2006 7:52 AM

ALLISA

My daughters tuned me into Buffy mid 2nd season (we now own the series) and we watched Angel together as well. We all agree that Spike is da bomb and Angel just kinda....eh. (tho I love David on Bones)

But obviously both Buffy and Angel were just warmups for Joss...I find it interesting that the best characters (or what I think were the best) from both series were "supporting" (Druscilla, Spike, Faith, Fred etc) and in Firefly there are no real "supporting" characters (other than guest appearance type stuff) - ensemble is what Joss was meant to do!

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Monday, August 7, 2006 8:04 AM

Ahhh, Spike and Faith.
The rich Jossy frosting on SMG's yellow cake Buffster.
Then even she changed to Devil's Food for season 6

.

Fruity Oaty Cake Chrisisall

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Monday, August 7, 2006 5:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Let me save you some time, and maybe money. If you can't buy the Chosen collection, then just buy season 3, rent 4, 5, and 6- then buy 7.

Whereas other people--like me--will tell you that 7 was perhaps the weakest season of all. 'Eye of the beholder' and all that.

My recommendation: if you're on a budget and can't afford to buy every season, rent them all first, decide which ones you like best, and buy those.

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 3:52 AM

Or you could do that.

Not always right Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 4:39 AM

SWEETSERENDIPITY

I too have become a Spikaholic. River6213 got me started when I read a thread about Once More With Feeling. I've been hooked ever since. I'm not watching in order though, I can't afford to rent or buy right now. I'm also hooked on Angel, yes it's still on TNT.

A gift for you DeepGirl,

Deb

http://serendipityagain.com/

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Tuesday, August 8, 2006 5:17 AM

Thanks, sweetserendipity.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:17 AM

Who needs drugs when you have Joss?

I enthusiastically devoured the latest episodes of Buffy (I'm on the first disc of season 3). It seems that Joss was finally able to start handling more adult themes with this season (at least moreso than he had before).

There was only one beef I had with the new season. When Buffy returned home, almost everyone treated her as if she had stabbed them in the back by leaving. It was like everything she went through didn't matter (granted, no one knew about Angel at first). Maybe leaving wasn't the best thing to do, but I can see why she chose to. She was kicked out of school, thrown out of her house, and she killed her boyfriend. If I were in her position, I'd feel like I had nothing left. But instead of having some empathy for what she went through, everyone (except Oz and Giles) was more concerned about what she did to them. More than a little unfair, if you ask me.

On a lighter note, Faith seems pretty cool. Of course, knowing Joss, I'm probably going to be very wrong about this.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:21 AM

MAL4PREZ

I totally agree DeepGirl! The scoobie gang should have taken it easy on her - they should trust her enough to know she wouldn't run away for no reason.

I'm really enjoying reliving the Buffy experience thru your posts! So much goodness still to come for you... And Faith just keeps getting better, IMO.

Good lord, SweetSerendipity - where did you get that shirtless Spike picture? Yikes, and add more drooling here!

-----------------------------------------------
I'm the president. I don't need to listen.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:29 AM

SUZFROMOZ

Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
[Angel represents protection and redemption, Buffy represents vengance and destruction.

Interesting observations. I dont disagree...but I find it interesting that in my opinion, Angel is a much 'darker' show, and character, which is in direct contrast to how you have just summed up the characters. Hmmmm

Also - on the original topic, I think you will find the series 'matures' as the characters do. I remember it changed timeslots when

Select to view spoiler:

Buffy first slept with Angel

And the later series are much darker, and more mature storylines. And yet I love some of the 'fun' scenes in the early series. One of my favourite scenes is "Hey, Juice!..." 'macho macho man...' just cos its silly.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:43 AM

SUZFROMOZ

its lots of fun hearing your posts as you discover Buffy - that was my first love in the jossverse, and I think I have to agree with the earlier statement, that although I belive firefly is better and I fell in love with the characters, there are 7 shiny seasons of buffy plu 5 of angel - all of which I have on dvd....

I am happy to rewatch things over and over...but 14 episodes doesnt last very long. :(

Hey, on another note, Bones starts here in australia this week, and I had no idea David was in it. I will tune in now I know.

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:54 AM

Firefly is still my first love as well, and always will be. My mother, who has been watching Buffy with me, does not share the same sentiments, unfortunately. She just can't see the genius that is Firefly. And yet, I can have extensive discussions with her about Buffy. I don't know why it is that people can't be as attached to Firefly as they are to other shows in the Joss-verse.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 3:57 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Geez Deb! Between the coffee I just spit all over my desk and the subsequent drooling - I'd say that picture of Spike is gonna cost me a new keyboard - but hey - the boss will understand after she is done cleaning up her own coffee!

Can I have one of those while I await my BDH?

We are The Forsaken - We aim to burn! and we don't need no stinkin levels!

one of the Forsaken TM

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 5:04 AM

SWEETSERENDIPITY

FMF, absolutely! Did you really kill a keyboard?

Mal4Prez, I stole...um,borrowed them all on photobucket. Feel free to copy and paste,y'all!

From season 6,

Deb

http://serendipityagain.com/

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 12:06 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

Quote:
Originally posted by SuzFromOz:
Quote:
Originally posted by christhecynic:
Angel represents protection and redemption, Buffy represents vengance and destruction.

Interesting observations. I dont disagree...but I find it interesting that in my opinion, Angel is a much 'darker' show, and character, which is in direct contrast to how you have just summed up the characters. Hmmmm

I've tried to type this post more than a few times but I haven't been satisfied with it. What I want to say is simple:
I don't think Angel being darker is in contrast to what I said I think it is instead the reason for it.

The problem is that I also want to explain why I think that.

I guess the first thing is that where (in my opinion) Buffy often acts out of vengance Angel acts out of a desire for redemption. Well the lightest character in the world could act out of vengance, you just hurt them, someone they care about, something they care about, or convince them that there is a wrong that must be avenged.

But to want to be redeemed means that the character must have personally done something wrong. It isn't, "Hello, my name is Inigo Montoya, you killed my father, prepare to die," it is instead, "Hello, my name is Count Rugen, I've killed a lot of people and taken joy in it, what can I do to wash away the guilt and pain." You need a dark character if he or she is going to be redeemed.

Then there's a question of protection vs. destruction. Destruction is something we show to kids in large quantities, "Hey look there's the hero killing off the bad guys and saving the day," whether you think we should or should not let kids watch such things you have to admit that we don't consider the topic all that dark.

On the other hand watch a movie about someone being stalked, or tortured, or simply kept in a hole waiting to be killed, and all of a sudden it's dark and disturbing.

It doesn't matter that 500 people died so the hero could save the world in the first movie where the only one in the second movie to die was the bad guy, it doesn't matter if the one being stalked is never even in pain in the second movie. When you're killing the bad guys you're just seeing the bad guys, and they're dying, which is good. When you're protecting someone you're seeing the victim, you're seeing their pain, whether it is physical or mental, and their fear, you're seeing what it is that makes the bad guys worthy of death, and that is far darker than simply killing those same bad guys.

Redemption and protection, which I believe Angel to be about, are inherently dark topics because for them to exist there must be darkness in plain sight.

How many times have you seen something where it says, "Worse than Hitler,"? I've seen it in a lot of movies and I have to say it means nothing, you hear that, see a bad guy, he loses, all are happy. Nothing dark at all. That's not a problem for me because I like lighter movies as well as darker ones, more so most of the time.

But if it is the other way around, if instead of killing the bad guy who is, "Worse than Hitler," you are saving the person in one of his camps all of a sudden that means something, not the words which are still hollow and empty, but now, because you are saving a victim, you see what makes the person worse than Hitler. The movie, book, comic, or whatever has to take you into the concentration camp and show you the horrors that are there because it focuses on the one in pain, not the one causing it.

That different focus, the difference between the one causing the pain and the one in the pain, is what it all comes down to. If you're killing the pain causer you need not see the pain itself, you can see it, but there isn't a need. If you're saving the one doing the suffering you have to see the suffering, you don't have a choice about it, and that makes for a darker tv show.

It also makes for a character more likely to decide, "This isn't working, I'll ditch morality for a while," because he isn't saying, "Today was a good day, I killed 15 vampires, stopped a demon from taking over the world, and did other cool suff," he's more likely saying, "The 15 vampires killed a lot of people before I could stop them, the demon raped my friend as part of an attempt to breed an army, and all of that cool stuff can't erase any of the pain I've seen."

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Wednesday, August 9, 2006 9:23 PM

SUZFROMOZ

i certaibly dont disagree with you at all. I guess I was thinking of an 'at first glance' kind of observation, you would expect something full of death to be darker, but I entirely can see your point.

Then of course there is season 3 or 4 (?not sure) of Angel - when he definately is about more than just protection, or redemption....

And to my mind, thats even darker, because there is a chance that he has lost himself....

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Thursday, August 10, 2006 8:42 AM

If FMF is FutureMrsFillion, then I'm FurtureMrsMarsters.

Sorry about the constant Spkie-loving, but I just continued to be floored by his performance as Spike. And for those that don't believe me, just watch "Lover's Walk". Just like there's no one else that could play our captain, I don't think anyone could possibly be Spike. In that episode especially, you believe that he is Spike (not to mention a pathetic, drunken mess

).

I think Joss is hell-bent on making all his character's suffer. Buffy, Angel, Willow, Xander, Cordelia, and Oz; they're all meant to have miserable existances. But hell, at least we have fun watching it.

I think one of the main differences between Buffy and Firefly is the way you get attached. With Buffy, you're attached to certain characters (i.e. Spike, Willow). But with Firefly, you're attached to everything, from the characters, the ship, to the places they visit or the things they say. As long as I can see my favorite character in Buffy, I don't care where they are, but with Firefly, it wouldn't be the same if I couldn't see every part of their world.

P.S. - And by the way, "Band Candy". Completely sick and demented. Though I have to say, I kind of liked Giles better when he was acting like a irresponsible teenager.

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"See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart."

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Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:16 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Originally posted by DeepGirl187:
Sorry about the constant Spkie-loving, but I just continued to be floored by his performance as Spike. And for those that don't believe me, just watch "Lover's Walk". Just like there's no one else that could play our captain, I don't think anyone could possibly be Spike. In that episode especially, you believe that he is Spike (not to mention a pathetic, drunken mess ).

Yeah, James Marsters is really the only guy who can be Spike--and Captain Peroxide only gets better with time. He’s great in “Lover’s Walk,” though; one of my favorite episodes from Season Three--which is saying something, given the strong season.

Quote:
With Buffy, you're attached to certain characters (i.e. Spike, Willow). But with Firefly, you're attached to everything, from the characters, the ship, to the places they visit or the things they say. As long as I can see my favorite character in Buffy, I don't care where they are, but with Firefly, it wouldn't be the same if I couldn't see every part of their world.

Part of the difference between Buffy and Firefly may be because Firefly actually has a world to go see--Buffy is ostensibly set in the modern day; its fantastic element comes from the characters (Slayers, vampires, witches, werewolves, etc) and the demons they fight. Although don’t count Sunnydale out just yet; the Hellmouth may grow on you.

And I personally always enjoyed delving into the mythology of the series, which they do a bit more on Angel than Buffy, but which is strong on both. What I really like is how Joss uses fallible narrators--information about the universe and events in the past is always conveyed to us through characters, and those characters may not be trustworthy or may not have all the information, so our picture of the Buffyverse is constantly expanding and changing.

P.S.: “Band Candy” is indeed great! It was the first ep of a Mutant Enemy show written by Jane Espensen, who also wrote “Shindig” on Firefly (She’s the only writer besides Joss to have done episodes for all three shows). Expect more fun from her this season and throughout the series (as well as on Angel).

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Thursday, August 10, 2006 7:32 PM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
“Band Candy” is indeed great! It was the first ep of a Mutant Enemy show written by Jane Espensen, who also wrote “Shindig” on Firefly (She’s the only writer besides Joss to have done episodes for all three shows). Expect more fun from her this season and throughout the series (as well as on Angel).

Jane Espenson is really great...and she'll be writing an episode or two for Battlestar Galactica this upcoming season!

It is funny, I thought Ben Edlund had also written for all three...but I guess he only wrote for Firefly & Angel...no Buffy episodes.

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River Dancing on River's Dream images at Cafe Press:
http://www.cafepress.com/embersartwork

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Thursday, August 10, 2006 9:30 PM

"Band Candy" and "Lovers Walk"... only two of the best episodes ever!

As great as Giles and Joyce were in BC, to me, Snyder totally steals the episode.

"You guys seen Ms. Barton? I think she's wasted. I'm gonna have to put that in her performance review, 'cause... 'cause I'm the principal!"

"Whoa, Summers, you drive like a spaz!"

DG, It sounds like you're about to start disc 3 of S3, if you haven't already. A word of caution: if I remember right, it has the season overview on this disc. Don't watch it! It'll give away pretty much the whole rest of the season

. For seasons 3, 4, and maybe even 5--along with the first couple of "Angel"--they had this annoying thing of putting the season overview on the third disc. Finally they wised up in the last few seasons and moved this to disc 6, where it belongs.

And since the girls got that nice pic of James to enjoy, here's one for the guys:

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Monday, August 14, 2006 3:33 AM

Jane Espenson is almost as sick as Joss is.

With "Shindig" being one of my favorite episodes (as well as one of the tamer ones), I figured she was kind of the cool breath of sanity that was usually missing from the Joss-verse. But the more I watch Buffy, the more I see how dreadfully wrong I was. At least for the third season, some of the squickiest (yes, it's a word, so there

), most frightening episodes have been hers.

On a different note, many props to David and SMG for "Amends". Very heart-warming and well-acted.

P.S. - And is it just me, or is Vamp Willow downright terrifying?

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Friday, August 18, 2006 3:22 AM

So I was on my way back from child psychology class last night, and I got to thinking. Some of the Buffy-verse characters have serious problems, don't they?

I'm not saying just in general, but actual psychological disorders that could be diagnosed. My mother, who's a therapist, can refute me on this. So what character has what problem?

WARNING: STUFFY PSYCHOLOGICAL TERMS AND POSSIBLE SPOILERS MIGHT ENSUE.

Buffy: Strange though it may sound, Buffy doesn't have as many visible problems as she should. The only thing you could really diagnose her with is mild to moderate depression that comes and goes. Course, I'm only on the third season, so this will probably change (espeically knowing Joss).

Faith: Faith is a textbook-case of anti-social personality disorder. She has no remorse for her actions, only considers people and things as they relate to her, and is destructive to other people, things and herself. Joss really hit the nail on the head with this one.

Angel/Angelus: Angel has moderate to severe depression (I think the brooding gave it away

) depending on the circumstances and time period. He also has some dependent personality traits (regarding his dependence on Buffy to keep him good), and is at times suicidal. Angelus on the other hand, also has anti-social perosonality disorder, much worse than Faith (obviously). And, though my mom and I disagree on this one, I think he's slightly megalomaniacal (the whole taking the world into the demon dimension thing).

Spike: While Spike has some pretty gaping anti-social tendencies, he doesn't actually have a personality disorder. He is, however, co-dependent. He constantly is enabling Drusilla to destructive actions, even at the cost of his own needs. He might also be an alcoholic, though there really isn't enough shown to know for sure.

Drusilla: Drusilla obviously has problems (or, as my mother termed it, is seriously "f

ked up"). She may have schizo-affective disorder (not completely sure, have to look up the diagnosis), and is definitely delusional.

*I should note here that Faith, Angelus, Spike, and Drusilla are more than a little homicidal*

Xander/Cordelia: I put these two together because they both have the same problem: both are narcissistic. For Xander, his narcissism seems to revolve around the idea that his problems are larger than everyone else's. In Cordelia's case, she likes to make herself appear more important than she really is, usually by belittling others.

Willow/Oz: Willow and Oz get put together as well. Both characters are very passive, but in different ways. Oz's laid-back demeanor actually keeps him from acting when he should (especially regarding Willow's feeling's toward Xander), whereas Willow is more passive-agressive (once again, reagarding Xander).

Sorry about the long, drawn out post, but as you can see, I really like psychoanalizing TV characters. And Joss tends to make it all the more fun.

P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Friday, August 18, 2006 4:48 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

He's British. They invented sanity.

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We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, August 18, 2006 5:37 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

P.S. - I know I didn't put Giles, but in all honesty, he's remarkably well-adjusted, especially for living in a Hellmouth.

have you seen 'Band Candy' yet? there is a lot of repressed stuff about Giles...
until we meet Wesley, of course, who is SERIOUSLY repressed and has a lot of Father issues....
(he doesn't listen to others and takes on authority to do things he doesn't have a right to do because he is always trying to 'prove' himself to the hard cold Father...)

And of course Willow's problems: unwillingness to share her friends with others...
and a slightly addictive personality which gets much much worse....

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Friday, August 18, 2006 6:04 AM

I gave Giles the benefit of the doubt with "Band Candy". Not to say it wasn't seriously disturbing. You may be right about the authority issues, though.

I haven't seen too much of Wesley, so I didn't want to go too much into him (though I think you're right and he's just as wigged out as the rest of them). And I forgot about the friends issue with Willow.

See, this is why I love my fellow Browncoats. Always up for an interesting discussion.

EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Friday, August 18, 2006 1:01 PM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

On Buffy, no, he's pretty much that way til the season finale. But he later becomes a cast member on Angel and he...changes...a lot. He becomes one of my favorite characters ever. But it's not because of his happy-go-lucky personality, that's for sure.

If you are interested in psychological disorders, just wait til the spinoff. lol.

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Friday, August 18, 2006 4:59 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

Ah, the many sides of Wes.

Wesley’s main role in Buffy’s third season is to be so insufferable that everyone around him becomes cooler by comparison (even Giles, who now gets to be the rebel rather than the authority figure). When Wesley returns, they bend him away from that and turn him into more of a loveable buffoon--and the rest, they say, is television history, as his character grows and expands in unanticipated new ways. I can’t make any guarantees, but I suspect that by the last time you see him, you’ll love the guy.

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Saturday, August 19, 2006 4:47 PM

The other cool thing about Wesley (that you may or may not know): Alyson Hannigan married him.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 2:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
The other cool thing about Wesley (that you may or may not know): Alyson Hannigan married him.

She did? Awwww...

The journey continues. As I watched my latest disc (disc five of season three), I started reflecting on the best episodes vs. my favorite episodes. "Doppelgangland" and "Earshot" are probably the best episodes that I've watched so far, but "Lover's Walk" is still my favorite (if it has Spike in it, I'm there with bells on

).

Everything about the series has become more sophisticated, from the acting to the fight scenes. It really makes me wonder though. Firefly was extremely well-done in its first season, something Buffy had to work up to. If Firefly had been given seven seasons, can you guys imagine what an amazing show we would have had?

*sigh*
Must stop now, getting depressed.

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
"Lover's Walk" is still my favorite (if it has Spike in it, I'm there with bells on ).

If that's the case, you have nowhere to go but up.
Season 3 has been refered to as the 'Sgt. Pepper' season, that is, the most consistantly excellent with no let-downs.
But many individual eps in seasons that follow are better, and Spike drops by more often.
Enjoy.

Nancy boy Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 3:59 AM

EMBERS

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

EDIT: Wesley doesn't stay that annoying, does he? Please tell me he gets more likable.

Wesley's growth and changes are only rivaled by Spike:
Wes goes from annoying prick (I did try to come up with a better word...but sometimes you have to say it)
to well meaning goof
to earnest side kick
to dark mystery man
to all out James Bond (if Jame Bond actually had serious layers)
But all his growth takes place on 'Angel' so I guess it isn't really a discussion for the Buffy forum, is it?
(I do love my Wesley!)

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:23 AM

I had another thought (a common occurence, I'm noticing

). In a few days, I'll be starting Angel. However, I've heard a lot less about this show than Buffy (almost nothing, in fact). So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first? Or do both have equal merit? What are your thoughts?

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"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:27 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

It's a bit like Buffy. When it's good it is really, really good, and when it's bad it's dire.

The first season is a little shaky as the show was still finding it's feet, but personally I think it had become very comfortable with itself by the second season. Some of the storylines were darker even than the very darkest Buffy episodes, and it always managed to have a nice, epic feel to it too.

It's well worth a look, especially if you enjoyed Buffy.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:07 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first?

Buffy is superior IMHO. Angel is sometimes more intense. It richly depends on whether you like or love David Boreanaz.
Angel's first season is a MUST though. How much farther you should go rests on if the characters click with you in season two.
(Lorne got old with me real fast)

No lounge lizard Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:43 AM

Personally, while I like the characters and actors on Buffy slightly better (VERY slightly), I prefer Angel for it's overall tone and feel--and completely awesome theme song!! IMO, the odd-numbered seasons--1, 3, and 5--are the real winners, while there was some dropoff in each of the two even-numbered years.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 12:55 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Originally posted by Deepgirl187:
I had another thought (a common occurence, I'm noticing ). In a few days, I'll be starting Angel. However, I've heard a lot less about this show than Buffy (almost nothing, in fact). So what are people's opinions? Does the original have more to offer? Does the spinoff exceed the first? Or do both have equal merit? What are your thoughts?

Both shows have their respective merits, but I always found myself more emotionally invested in Angel. I enjoyed the darker tone, the nods to noir, the epic struggles the show eventually gets involved in. What I really liked was that although there was always a defining core that made it Angel, they really reinvented the show every season. Sometimes they made mistakes, but there was always this great sense of motion and change, which counterbalanced the thematic and narrative constants (Angel is immortal, he has the weight of centuries on him, W&H will always be there).

I also like the characters on the show and how different they are from Buffy, less traditional in a way. On BtVS, the ensemble were a scrappy collection of outcasts who band together into a tight surrogate family; rejected by the “normal” world, they move into their own. On Angel, the characters are all outcasts who stay outcasts, even when together. The surrogate family they build is much more dysfunctional, and how could it not be since Angel wants the people around him to be willing to kill him if he turns evil again? It’s just a very different dynamic, and I really find it fascinating. I think both shows equal each other in terms of quality, but since what they deliver appeals to different sentiments people tend to favor one over the other.

As for why you haven’t heard so much about Angel, the show tends to get overlooked for three reasons: 1) although unconventional in its own right, it just doesn’t have the same kind of stereotype-inversion that you can find just in the very title of Buffy the Vampire Slayer and as a result, BtVS gets a great deal of the attention for being such a groundbreaking show. 2) Angel is also a spin-off, and suffers from the stigma that often accompanies spin-off, which are often shallow attempts to milk a franchise for more money by delivering exactly the same thing, only more of it (and thus loosing the originality and creativity of the original). Ats does not, I must emphasize, follow this pattern, it is its own show, not just more of the same, and it consistently strives to be the best television possible (and often succeeds at this). But people hear spin-off and immediately assume low quality. I know I did. 3) BtVS was a breakout hit for the WB, so the network played up the show in every way possible. Angel, however, got neglected and mistreated by the network (boy, that sounds familiar

) in such a manner that it had a hard time developing an audience beyond its loyal core. So fewer people even heard of it, thanks to the network.

So, the show is different from BtVS, while still firmly in the greater Buffyverse. It’s darker (both in tone and in cinematography—Angel doesn’t really like the sun much), it’s often very funny, it explores themes and subjects that BtVS doesn’t, and it broadens the mythology of the universe in new and interesting ways. Fun new characters and villains emerge and develop, and existing characters really grow as well—Angel, though still broody, gains a fun sense of humor and we delve more into his past. He was never my favorite character on the show, but he does a good job of carrying it and serving as its emotional center. As the ensemble develops, the show grows all the richer. There’s prophecies, there’s demons, one or two ancient gods, several vampires, and, perhaps most terrifyingly, plenty of lawyers. So watch and enjoy the other half of the Buffyverse, you’ll find it’s well-worth your time.

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 4:10 PM

Next stop, season four...

I'm not the crying sort of person. But I do have my moments of tearing up, and the end of season 3 was one of them. Particularly "The Prom". Watching as they gave Buffy the award for Class Protector was moving to me. After everything she'd been through, it's nice to know that people actually appreaciate the things she's done for them.

The other part I really enjoyed was the final scenes of "Graduation Day, Part 2". Fighting the mayor was one thing, but I really liked the fact that everyone took up arms. Ususally, the only role that the other students have is being a victim, but to see them defend themselves was great, I think. Buffy showed them that they didn't have to just lie down and take what the big bad's threw at them.

All in all, great season. Now if Netflix would just send me my damned disc already...

P.S. - I really appreaciate you guys responding. It's been great talking to everyone and it's nice to share different perspectives on the show.

*************************************************

"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Wednesday, August 23, 2006 7:13 PM

It's cool reading your opinions--almost like watching the show again for the first time!

If I can give you one quick tip for your next disc (S4, disc one): on the second episode, titled "Living Conditions", DON'T look at the picture on the episode's menu. As fast as you can, go from the disc's main menu right into the episode. Whoever was responsible for putting the menu graphics together picked a spoiler of a screencap that shouldn't be given away 'til the last 5 or so minutes of the ep...

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Monday, August 28, 2006 4:34 AM

Just finished the first disc of season four, and the first disc of Angel (btw, if you want me to post Angel-realted topics elsewhere, just let me know

).

Season four is off to a great start. Spikey goodness, and Harmony as a vampire. *shudder* Unfortunately, I have the same beef with this season as I did with the last. Why is it that everytime Buffy is going through a rather difficult adjustment in her life, all her friends (and family) seem to abandon ship? Did they ever stop to think that college might be a big adjustment for her? I mean, she barely got through high school with her life in tact. Now she's supposed to just jump headfirst into the whole college experience, all while she's still slaying? Horribly unfair, if you ask me.

What I was surprised and pleased to see was how Xander had Buffy's back. Xander's tends to be more than a little self-centered, so it was heartening to see him offer his support. And speaking of our favorite zeppo, I do wonder how things are going to work out for him. Since he's not in college, will it strain his relationship with the group? And let's not forget Anya. *shudders again*

All in all, I'm getting good vibes here. Here's hoping they'll continue.

EDIT: And thanks for the warning, Groosalugg. The folks at Mutant Enemy aren't very spoiler-friendly.

*************************************************

"Oooh, synchronizers!"

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Monday, August 28, 2006 9:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

All in all, I'm getting good vibes here. Here's hoping they'll continue.

The vibes will vary, but it's all worth it.

Look who's talkin' Chrisisall

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Monday, August 28, 2006 5:33 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
if you want me to post Angel-realted topics elsewhere, just let me know

Please, start a similar thread in the Angel forum--absolutely!

And as for your take on the first episode, I kinda don't fault the gang for this one the way you can for S3. Giles was just doing the parent-who's-sent-their-kid-to-college thing, trying to push her out of the nest and get her to become more independent. Willow and Oz weren't trying to be non-supportive--they were just so into the new college life, fitting in and loving it, that they didn't notice Buffy wasn't faring as well. But, it all turned out okay by the time the closing credits rolled around...

--edit-- Now that you're watching both shows, if you're looking for a guide on how best to watch them to make the x-overs match up, here ya go: (This may be tough to stick to if you're Netflixing it.)

- Buffy S4 and Angel S1: Watch Episode #1 of Buffy, then #1 of Angel; #2 of Buffy, #2 of Angel, etc., right thru to the end of the season.
- Buffy S5, Angel S2: Same as above.
- Buffy S6, Angel S3: Watch Angel episode #4 ("Carpe Noctem") before Buffy episode #4 ("Flooded"); other than that, it doesn't matter.
- Buffy S7, Angel S4: Watch Buffy episode #17 ("Lies My Parents Told Me") before Angel episode #15 ("Orpheus"), and Angel #15 before Buffy #18 ("Dirty Girls"); watch Angel #22 ("Home") before Buffy #21 ("End of Days").

During that last season of Buffy, you can see it takes some fancy juggling to keep everything lined up. But for the other three seasons, it's pretty easy. And generally speaking, x-overs go from Buffy to Angel, and not the other way around...

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Saturday, September 2, 2006 11:09 AM

Well, it's been awhile since I last updated. I just started school this week, so things have been pretty chaotic.

Since there's so much to cover, this is an abbreviated version of my take on things:

Neanderthal Buffy was cool; poor Willow (and damn Oz's sorry hide); the Initiative is messed up; syphillis + Xander = funny; poor Willow again (and Buffy with Spike is just creepy); Hush was way shiny; and Spike in a Hawaiian shirt is frightening.

There. I think that about covers it.

*************************************************

"I left my conscience pressed between the pages of the bible in the drawer."

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Saturday, September 2, 2006 6:38 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
Neanderthal Buffy was cool

Glad you liked that one! "Beer Bad" gets a bad rap, IMO. For my money, the only time Sarah is funnier is when she's playing... err, I'd better not say it yet

. For those that've seen S5, one word: "Intervention".

The rumors about the story behind the episode are almost as funny as the episode itself. You know those anti-drug commercials you see on TV sometimes? Well, those are federally-mandated and the networks don't get paid to air them, so every one of them is lost commercial revenue.

Well, back before S4 of Buffy, the government let the networks know that they'd reduce the numbers of those spots they were required to air (thereby allowing them to regain some of that lost $$) if they would agree to feature storylines in some of their shows about the dangers of substance abuse. The WB was one of the ones to take 'em up on it, and the producers of Buffy were told to do an episode on the evils of drugs and/or alcohol. Their answer: a hysterical, raised-middle-finger-of-an-episode titled, fittingly: "Beer Bad".

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Monday, September 4, 2006 3:20 PM