GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

"Am I a Lion?"..."No that aint it at all..."

POSTED BY: SOULE
UPDATED: Tuesday, August 30, 2016 19:43
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Saturday, January 11, 2003 3:50 PM

SOULE


Now that I've seen "Objects in Space", I know for sure that Firefly is the best show on television. On to the smaller point.

In "Objects in Space" during Early and Simon's first conversation:

Simon: "Are you Alliance?"
Early: "Am I a lion? I don't think of myself as a lion. You might as well though. I have a mighty roar."

(later...)

Simon: "So you're a bounty hunter."
Early: "No, that ain't it at all. I'm a Bounty Hunter."

In an episode filled with some of the most quietly creepy dialogue I've ever heard, it seems I've missed something in these two passages.

I suppose the first could be a peek into the Early's mind so we get an idea about the size of his ego. I don't know, it's a guess.

As for the second, I'm really lost. The only thing I can of is that Jubal is hard of hearing.


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Saturday, January 11, 2003 4:19 PM

SENSOU


I think what Early said was "I'm a body hunter."

Sensou
Anything that can go wrong will, and at the worst possible time

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Saturday, January 11, 2003 5:15 PM

SERGEANTX


...or he said "bounty" and its an indication of how much he likes the sound of his own voice... to the point of not even listening to Simon.
Kind of hard to hear for sure on the recording I have.

SergeantX

"..and here's to all the dreamers, may our open hearts find rest." -- Nanci Griffith

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Sunday, January 12, 2003 5:24 AM

ESME


I agree that there was something odd about the alliance/lion exchange...Jubal seemed to really not understand Simon, but maybe he was faking ignorance. He's GOT to know who the Alliance are, for heaven's sake.
I really loved this ep. too. Really! Especially when River settled his hash at the end and it showed him writhing in distress. Powerful.
(*sign of wistful sadness*)

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Sunday, January 12, 2003 6:05 AM

KAYTHRYN


Here's my take. I think that Jubel was just plain crazy. Not crazy like foaming at the mouth and running around with a gun in hand, but more intelligently crazy. I think that's even scarier. The whole bounty hunter thing to me was just showing another subtle aspect of how is 'isn’t all there'. Maybe in his mind when Simon angrily said bounty hunter that wasn't what he was. Then when Jubel said it, with more respect or prestige, or just because he was the one to say it, it was who he was. (I know that sounds confusing, but it made sense in my head)All together my number one favorite episode.

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Sunday, January 12, 2003 9:08 AM

HKCAVALIER


Yes, I think that Early is mentally ill. It's rare when a character on TV is realistically depicted with mental illness. And if they are, then the whole show's about the mental illness and their behavior is thoroughly explained. But Early is crazy the way someone that you meet is crazy--you assume they're sane, then you start to wonder about them and suddenly they're licking the furnature. You have no idea what's actually wrong with the guy but you know it's something.

I don't think he's hard of hearing so much as he's dissociative, he spaces out (vary scary thing for an assassin to do in front of you, I'd imagine).

My first guess about the alliance/lion confusion is that Early has trouble hearing the word "alliance." There's a block there. Like if he was tortured or brainwashed by the Alliance or something. He doesn't want to or his brain can't quite acknowledge that there's an Alliance. But then when Simon clarifies what he was saying Early says, "That's weird," and I get the feeling of something else entirely, something much more personal. Mainly, its just scary.

Ack, the show is brilliant! Somebody within the power structure of TV must recognize that this show is doing things no one is doing and pick it up!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Sunday, January 12, 2003 8:23 PM

ADVERB


Hmm. My take on it was different. I assume that River had somehow caused the confusion with her mental abilities, though perhaps not purposefully.

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Monday, January 13, 2003 1:05 AM

STRAYCAT


Quote:

Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I don't think he's hard of hearing so much as he's dissociative, he spaces out (vary scary thing for an assassin to do in front of you, I'd imagine).



Agreed, and I think it's partly a defence mechanism. Note when they go into the infirmary, and Simon siezes the chance to try and gain sympathy for River's plight.... and Early interrupts him to say: 'You ever been shot?' (or however he phrased it) - Simon quickly realises that Early wasn't even listening to him. Can't be swayed by a tale of woe if you don't hear it...

I get the impession that the only things he's sure to hear are the things he *needs* to hear to get the job done.

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Monday, January 13, 2003 2:20 AM

KAYLEEHOLIC


I think that, listening to most of Early's dialogue, he had pretty much the same problem that River had.

Let's think about it logically:

How was Early able to locate the Serenity when nobody else had been able to ?

Why does Early sound like a complete maniac ?

I think he was subjected to much the same stuff as River, 'cept River's much more powerfull and could 'phase' Early out.

In her words, no 'power' in the verse can stop her, not even Earlys.


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Monday, January 13, 2003 3:58 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:


Originally posted by HKCavalier:
I don't think he's hard of hearing so much as he's dissociative, he spaces out (vary scary thing for an assassin to do in front of you, I'd imagine).



I agree. Early seemed unbalanced, though not insane. Perhaps it is due to the things he has done, or early trauma, or a combination, but for whatever reason he seems to live in his own reality and ours only crosses into his when he is hunting someone.

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Monday, January 13, 2003 4:43 AM

LOSTANGEL


Could Early be what River was supposed to turn into?

Notice that Early didn't seem to realize the danger he was in as he was floating off into nowhere?

"Well, here I am"

I think it may be possible that we would see him again. (no negative thoughts allowed)

______________________
Lost Angel

WASH: Psychic, though? That sounds like something out of science fiction.
ZOE: We live in a space ship, dear.
WASH: So?


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Monday, January 13, 2003 11:17 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:


Originally posted by LostAngel:
Could Early be what River was supposed to turn into?



Very logical supposition. In the scene where River calmly grabs up the pistol and drops the two soldiers w/ as many shots without looking, it shows that she has been programmed w/ or received training in small arms and is very proficient w/ them.

Most likely they were programming her to be an assassin or some sort of deep cover agent. Perhaps even a sleep agent.

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Monday, January 13, 2003 2:22 PM

TINYTIMM


Quote:

Originally posted by BrownCoat1:
Quote:


In the scene where River calmly grabs up the pistol and drops the two soldiers w/ as many shots without looking, it shows that she has been programmed w/ or received training in small arms and is very proficient w/ them.


I disagree. In training a warrior/ assassin/ soldier you train to track and hit a target, targets are unpredicatable.
Rivers action show the use of a pistol as a training aid. Like the staff of the martial artist the end is watched because it amplifies the actions of the person doing the exercise. You may not see the hand wavier, but the end of the 6 foot pole will.
River wasn't efficiently killing people. She was demonstrating another skill entirely.

Jeff
Who would be very, very, Very, VERY anxious near River....

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Tuesday, January 14, 2003 6:48 AM

BROWNCOAT1

May have been the losing side. Still not convinced it was the wrong one.


Quote:


Originally posted by TinyTimm:
Rivers action show the use of a pistol as a training aid. Like the staff of the martial artist the end is watched because it amplifies the actions of the person doing the exercise. You may not see the hand wavier, but the end of the 6 foot pole will.
River wasn't efficiently killing people. She was demonstrating another skill entirely.



Oh, she was killing efficiently alright. She and Kaylee were in danger and some programmed instinct seemed to kick in. She picked up the gun, looked at both targets to judge range and she fired two rounds, terminating two targets. Yes, this was a skill, a skill that she did not have before the Alliance doctors experimented on her. This was a result of programming.


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Tuesday, January 14, 2003 7:25 AM

QUEENTIYE


Quote:

Originally posted by Soule:
Simon: "Are you Alliance?"
Early: "Am I a lion? I don't think of myself as a lion. You might as well though. I have a mighty roar."

(later...)



I'll go with the dissociative, slightly hard of hearing thing here. He just plain heard wrong. Nothing complicated.

Quote:

Simon: "So you're a bounty hunter."
Early: "No, that ain't it at all. I'm a Bounty Hunter."



He said, "No, that ain't it at all. I'm a body hunter." Which is more sinister. He didn't see himself as looking for bounty (the reward), but for bodies (the people). He LIKED hunting people, is what he was saying. The bounty is just a nice perk.

QT

QueenTiye, Companion Academy drop-out!

Shamelessly gushing over Mal...

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Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:59 PM

BOBKNAPTOR


I don't think he said that. It sounded like "bounty hunter" to me, and close captioning said "bounty", not "body". I think he's just crazy. I like the theory someone posted earlier that he doesn't listen to anyone except to get the very basics to get the job done.

Something else that I thought was strange... the interaction with Inara. She said "I know you're tired" which by itself seemed very strange. He was talking about finding river, and she says "I know you're tired." I don't get it. Then he says "don't go visiting my intentions. don't you ever." they both seem to totally understand that. I was left going "what the... huh?"

______________
You got the right same as anyone to live & try to kill people

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Monday, January 20, 2003 2:28 PM

POSTER NUTBAG


Quote:


bobknaptor wrote:
Tuesday, January 14, 2003 12:59
I don't think he said that. It sounded like "bounty hunter" to me, and close captioning said "bounty", not "body". I think he's just crazy. I like the theory someone posted earlier that he doesn't listen to anyone except to get the very basics to get the job done.

Something else that I thought was strange... the interaction with Inara. She said "I know you're tired" which by itself seemed very strange. He was talking about finding river, and she says "I know you're tired." I don't get it. Then he says "don't go visiting my intentions. don't you ever." they both seem to totally understand that. I was left going "what the... huh?"



I think that both of these conversational quirks just continue to drive home the wonderful idea that Joss is a genious. The man has done what very, very few authors can do: provide exposition, without providing exposition.

Let's first look at Jubal & Simon's exchanges, (ie, alliance/lion, the bounty hunter repeat). I think that we are givin in those two brief remarks tons of background into Early's life. I also think that, while Joss may have had specific ideas in mind about Jubal Early, the way he left it open to interpretation allows every viewer to come up with his/her own idea of Jubal's history. Mirrored with our suppositions is Simon's own; we are left with the same impressions as he, and are therefor allowed to empathize with him.

With his conversation with Inara, I think we get a similar look at him ... more uncertain depth. However, I think we also get a wonderfully deeper look at Inara. I thought instantly that her remark ("I know you're tired") implied some sort of training (presumably at the companion's acadamy) in hostage/crime negotiations.

And yes, with both conversations, Joss never says anything specific about any of these characters, he never divulges any specific exposition... he just lets their own idiosyncratic conversational styles tell the story of the characters' histories.

Damn, Joss is a frickin' genious.

By the way, there really *was* a Jubal Early - a General in the civil war. Check out a little history here: http://www.jubalearly.org/

El Señor Poster Nutbag

Trained gorillas. Workable prototype jetpacks, and chicks, chicks, chicks. I know that's the action I signed on for.

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Monday, August 29, 2016 9:12 PM

THX


To me the "conversational quirks" were meant to demonstrate that Jubal was a little strange after being cooped up in that tiny little space craft for long periods of time. Granted, it is part of the job (its why he took the job - loved that exchange). The Firefly universe does gloss over the vastness of space a bit so how long he was on that ship to reach them is a guess. But it was what struck me before he opened his mouth - that tiny little ship he had all by himself. Some of those other little "flashbacks" about the dog and who knows what else was going through his mind.

Oh, and I saw this thread after searching for Jubal's lines and was amazed to see a thread from 2003 about it! I had to check - I could have sworn Firefly came out closer to 2005 or something. Still a long time. Don't kill me for bumping this thread, please.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:45 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Don't apologize for bringing up an old thread. That's one of the great things about this site, it has a long and rich history, seeing as how it began even before the "Official Board" that was sponsored by FOX, and it still survives long after that one bit the dust.

This thread started about a year before I came aboard, shortly after the DVDs were released, but I don't recall seeing it before. There are only three posters I recall who were active in 2004, and two of those still drop in occasionally.

I'm sure I've watched "Objects in Space" at least a dozen times, maybe more than twenty, but I need to go back again just to see if Jubal said "body" the second time instead of "bounty." Never heard it that way.

EDIT: I pulled the Firefly Companion, Volume 2 off the shelf, flipped to the script for "Objects in Space." Since Joss wrote it, and I'm sure provided the publishers with the original script, it is likely to be accurate. In both instances Jubal said "bounty," so only a difference in inflection on his part would give us a clue as to why he would deny it in one sentence, then confirm it in the next. The scripts in the book are the originals, not just transcripts of the completed episode. Here's how it reads:

Simon: So you're a bounty hunter.

Jubal: That ain't it at all.

Simon: Then what are you?

Jubal: I'm a bounty hunter.

Simon: That's what I said.

Jubal: Yeah, but you didn't say it well. I'm named Early. I'm known to some - probably not your set, though. She sleep with anybody?

In the filmed version, Jubal does not say the first sentence of that last exchange, and the "probably not your set, though" was also cut. It seems Jubal did not like the tone of voice Simon used when he said "bounty hunter," he probably heard it in a condescending or critical tone.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2016 10:57 AM

REAVERFAN


I only joined in 2012. It's fun seeing people talk about a show I'd never heard of in 2003.

Bush was president. I was protesting the war. I'm ooold!

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Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:09 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I might be older than you, but while I was also protesting the war in 2003, I had been watching Firefly from the beginning as well. Didn't sign on here until early 2004 after the DVDs were released.




wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Tuesday, August 30, 2016 7:43 PM

THX


Quote:

Originally posted by ecgordon:

EDIT: I pulled the Firefly Companion, Volume 2 off the shelf, flipped to the script for "Objects in Space." Since Joss wrote it, and I'm sure provided the publishers with the original script, it is likely to be accurate. In both instances Jubal said "bounty," so only a difference in inflection on his part would give us a clue as to why he would deny it in one sentence, then confirm it in the next. The scripts in the book are the originals, not just transcripts of the completed episode. Here's how it reads:

Simon: So you're a bounty hunter.

Jubal: That ain't it at all.

Simon: Then what are you?

Jubal: I'm a bounty hunter.

Simon: That's what I said.

Jubal: Yeah, but you didn't say it well. I'm named Early. I'm known to some - probably not your set, though. She sleep with anybody?




Thanks for this. I hadn't heard "body" before but this thread was making me second-guess myself while hoping it was "bounty" because that made it so much more intriguing.

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