No sir, I didn't care for it. S6 ending

BUFFYVERSE

No sir, I didn't care for it. S6 ending - Spike/Buffy

POSTED BY: AURAPTOR
UPDATED: Friday, January 19, 2007 03:08
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VIEWED: 2800
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Saturday, January 13, 2007 1:39 PM

America loves a winner!

Spoilers ahead!

Granted, I JUST am now starting S7 of Buffy, so yes, I'm 4+ yrs behind the curve on this stuff...but it's still all new to me, so there

I'm torn as to just why I didn't care for it. Knowing Joss, it's seldom hearts and flowers for any couple, but what was up w/ the Spike/ Buffy "almost" rape scene? Was that the only way we could get Spike to leave Sunnydale and get things 'fixed' ?? I must say, I was surprised at the wish Spike was after, but to the point.... I'm confused as to how a souless vamp, chip or no chip, can regret what he did. And why's he regret polishing the table w/ Anya ? They were both hurt, they got pissed on liquor, and things happened. What's the big deal ? ( from a Vamps perspective, I mean )

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, January 13, 2007 1:58 PM

MIRAMEL

hey, i am RIGHT were you are in terms of what i've seen, im just now starting s7 and finished 6 a bit ago. i didn't like the ending much either, but it was less spike related and more tara related- SOSOSO sad. i just hate that. but on spike, yeah, i think its kinda weird whats going on there. frankly, i like earlier spike a lot better, when he was just straight-up evil, no tricks. [a dishonest man you can always trust to be dishonest. honestly. its the honest once you want to look out for, you can never tell when they're going to do something terribly... stupid]. it does seem kinda ooc, but frankly i think by this point spike is so screwed up, it barely even registers.

~~~~
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Saturday, January 13, 2007 2:25 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Hoo boy...this is going to open up a whole barrel of worms.

Season six is popularly known as a "love it or hate it" season. For me, I enjoyed individual episodes, but overall, the season wasn't one of my favorites. I felt it was somewhat uneven.

There's a multitude of ideas about Spike in this season, especially regarding his soul. I won't go into the different theories, but here's my personal opinion.

Spike, I think, was never your average vampire. If you look at all of his history that is included in the series (some of which takes place in season seven, other parts in season five of Angel), to me it shows that he was never just a souless monster. I think he has a capacity to express emotion that transcends what most vampires are thought to possess. All that being said, the love he felt for Buffy (no matter how unhealthy it was), is what allowed him to feel remorse for what he almost did to her (as well as the incident with Anya), and is what thus led him to acquire a soul.

This is, however, my opinion. If you explore this and other forums on the subject, you'll find a great deal of varying opinions. In any case, I hope that gives you a starting point in dissecting the season.

*************************************************

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

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Saturday, January 13, 2007 3:23 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
the love he felt for Buffy (no matter how unhealthy it was), is what allowed him to feel remorse for what he almost did to her (as well as the incident with Anya), and is what thus led him to acquire a soul.

Right there with ya, Deepgirl. Except that I liked most of the season, no matter how painful.

Souled Chrisisall

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 4:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

deepgirl, you naied it about S6 and it being so uneven. I mean, how does the same season contain a musical to one of the darkest episodes with the death of Tara and then the emergance of Dark Willow. And oh yeah, the whole Buffy trying to figure her now alive self out again.....It seems like this season goes in 100 different directions at the same time.

Also, you seemed to be correct in how Spike's love for Buffy 'allowed ' him to feel sorry for what he'd done, but again, isn't that only a problem if you have a soul in the 1st place ? That Spike wresltes with what he's done internally, and that's what leads him to GETTINTG a soul, seems to be putting the cart before the horse.

I just have to say, up until Spikes scene w/ Buffy in the bathroom , and most of what I've seen after, I've really enjoyed Spike as a character. I know many think he'd become too camp, too much the comic side kick, but I think since his hands were tied ( figuratively speaking ) his evil doing ways were limited. What else was he to do? He couldn't very much leave Sunnydale and go out in the real world. Not in that 'defanged' state. I think it made sense that he'd call a truce, of sorts, w/ the Scoobies and end up falling in love w/ Buffy, as he was already hot for her before he had his chip implanted.

And also with the whole near rape scene, I think it could have made a bit more sense if the writers showed more of the confusion Spike was going through. What ever the reason, time constraints on writing, etc....I think the way it happened made it seem like it was from left field, almost like an after thought.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 5:13 AM

SUCCATASH

Well, Spike was pretty torn up when Druscilla left him (what was that, season 2?)

Didn't that bit of soulishness bother you? :)

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 7:10 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Well, Spike was pretty torn up when Druscilla left him (what was that, season 2?)

Didn't that bit of soulishness bother you? :)

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

I'm not saying one needs to have a soul in order to still have wants. Drusilla leaving him deprived Spike of his sexy, evil playmate. But it's not the same as if he were try to rape her and then become all pensive and introspective , as he did w/ Buffy.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:23 AM

SUCCATASH

Spike certainly treated Harmony as a sex toy, but he felt true soulish affection for Druscilla (and Buffy).

In season two, "Suprise," the Judge tells Spike and Druscilla: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

It appears Spike has a touch of humanity in him?

"Gott kann dich nicht vor mir beschuetzen, weil ich nicht boese bin."

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Tuesday, January 16, 2007 1:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Succatash:
Spike certainly treated Harmony as a sex toy, but he felt true soulish affection for Druscilla (and Buffy).

In season two, "Suprise," the Judge tells Spike and Druscilla: You two stink of humanity. You share affection and jealousy.

It appears Spike has a touch of humanity in him?

Spike and Dru, Angel and Darla...seems there's all manner of lust and want w/ these vampire types. Why else would Spike get ticked off that Angel was boinking Drusilla ? It seems all perplexing.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 4:28 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I'm kinda catching up on this thread, so forgive me if this has been said before.

Yes, it was a particularly dark and nasty scene from a particularly dakr and nasty season that blurred the lines on a loooot of issues. The only person who came out blameless that year were Tara and Dawn - and Tara died. That kinda sums the season up!

I can't even begin to describe the heated arguments that burned up the 'net in the wake of this season. It split fans right down the middle. In my mind, both the "big" events (Tara's death and the attempted rape of Buffy) were needed to continue stories that had been put in place long before. I think certain aspects of each could have been handled better, but they were still integral to the overall plot of the show and to the development of Willow and Spike.

I think the Buffy/Spike almost rape scene was to remind viewers that Spike had a chip and not a soul. Spike was slowly becoming more and more human-like in his actions and his feelings as the years progressed, but at his very core he just didn't have the moral centre people normally have. He just didn't have the ability to tell right from wrong. He only knew he'd made a terrible mistake from Buffy's reaction to what happened.

The truth is, most of us got a bit too cosy about Spike. We saw him as a good guy. Heck, he was even taking on the role of Dawn's nanny! The attempted rape underscored just how much he needed a soul if he was ever truly going to achieve redemption. Without it, he was just an animal on a leash. Hence the scene where he thinks his chip has failed and gets a girl nice and terrified before he tries to bite her.

I remember one Buffy fan at the time comparing Spike to The Joker in DC comics. Everyone *loves* the Joker, and for that reason you tend to forget that he's evil. So when he does something truly brutal (like beating Robin to death) it's even more shocking.

It sounds silly, but you'd be amazed how many Buffy fans still think that Spike was always good and that the only reason he did something nasty is because Buffy was a rotten girlfriend. Nope, I'm not kidding. I've seen Spike-fans blame Buffy for everything. They even blamed her for him wanting to bite that girl in the ally, since Buffy "stood him up." I think that's part of the reason why that particular scene had to happen.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 7:16 AM

DEEPGIRL187

I definitely agree wtih a lot of that, Desktop. Us Spike fans do tend to forget that (pre-soul) he is technically evil. He is capable of performing good even somewhat noble acts, but he is also lacking to moral center that a soul provides. I'll still hold that Spike had more human traits than most vampires, even towards the beginning, but that doesn't necessarily make him good. I suppose it does us all good to be reminded of things like that every once and awhile.

However, despite all of that, I think people give Buffy too much credit. She wasn't just acting negatively towards Spike (though he did seem to be her favorite target), it was everyone. And frankly it started before season six. For those familiar with Angel season one, recall this scene:

Quote:
Buffy: "I have someone in my life now. That I love. It's not what you and I had. It's very new. You know what makes it new? I trust him. I know him."

Angel: "That's great. It's nice - you moved on. I can't. You found someone new. I'm not allowed to, remember? I see you again it cuts me up inside and the person I share that with is me! You don't know me anymore. So don't come down here with your great new life and *expect* me to do things your way. Go home!"

Buffy: "See? - Faith wins again."

It wasn't necessary for her to say those things to Angel, but she did anyway. Yes, Faith did do some horrible things to Buffy, but what right does she have to expect Angel to follow her lead when number one, they've broken up, and number two, she's in his city, not hers? Buffy had some serious moral flaws, and it only became worse as the series progressed. It was only in season seven that she really started to recognize the fact.

"I suppose if we couldn't laugh at things that don't make sense, we couldn't react to a lot of life."

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 11:02 AM

CHRISISALL

Desktop, that was a most lucid analysis of the Spike phenom.
I liked Spike best in season 7 of Buffy.
But then season seven is my favourite season.

...who are surprisingly mobile for blind people Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:04 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
The truth is, most of us got a bit too cosy about Spike. We saw him as a good guy. Heck, he was even taking on the role of Dawn's nanny! The attempted rape underscored just how much he needed a soul if he was ever truly going to achieve redemption. Without it, he was just an animal on a leash. Hence the scene where he thinks his chip has failed and gets a girl nice and terrified before he tries to bite her.

I don't know how much Spike NEEDED a soul, though he seemed to think it's what Buffy was looking for in a b/f. But the problem I have w/ the near rape scene is that Spike was never a 'good ' guy. Sure, he could beat up other demons and help Buffy in her cause, but that could have been played off as him simply positioning himself to look good to Buffy. Score enough brownie points, get a free turn on the Slayer ride. He was defanged, but the chip didn't keep him from lying, stealing or boinking Anya. And since rape isn't sex, but physical dominance....physical abuse, why didn't the chip kick in an stop him ? Why did Buffy need to kick his ass across the room? To me, the whole 'Spike-almost-rapes-Buffy-causes-him-to-want-his-soul-back' scenario was,.... not the most well thought out plot of the series. Spike was distraught over what he had almost done to Buffy with OUT having a soul, so why go running off to get his old one replaced ? I get the double switch on the audience, he gets one thing when we all assumed he was after something else, ...that's nice. But I just didn't see how it fit. Maybe it's just me.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 12:16 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
And since rape isn't sex, but physical dominance....physical abuse, why didn't the chip kick in an stop him ? Why did Buffy need to kick his ass across the room?

Remember? She came back 'different', and he could hit her. Chip didn't work with Buffy anymore.

Spike's my he-wo Chrisisall

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Wednesday, January 17, 2007 3:01 PM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

aw, I got here late

pretty much everything has been said.

I agree with everything deepgirl and desktop hippie wrote

chrisisall is my he-wo
(after spike obviously)

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Thursday, January 18, 2007 12:12 PM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

Fair question, AURaptor. More than fair in fact.

Spike did regret his actions. There no question of that. He was upset over what he did to Buffy. That's because he loved her. She didn't love him, not at that point (if she ever really did) but he did love her. And when Spike falls for someone he falls hard. We only have to look at his relationship with Dru to see that.

I think at that point he realised that if he was *ever* going to win Buffy he would *need* to have a soul, because he just couldn't be the man she wanted without it. He tried being good, but he just couldn't take it that step further. Instead, he wound up being too like Warren for comfort.

That being said, the whole "bitca's gonna get what she deserves" thing was a bit silly. The only way it makes sense is if he intended to win his soul and then deliberately reject Buffy, right when she would have been okay with being with him. That's the only thing that explains the viciousness in his voice. That and writers trying to spring a surprise ending

but I think you know what I mean. I have wondered at times if that was Spike's original plan, since he seems to have wildly underestimated what impact having a soul would have on him.

Graphics available at www.desktophippie.com

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Thursday, January 18, 2007 2:42 PM

CYBERSNARK

Let's also not forget that Spike can, on occasion, be every bit as moronic as Angel.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, January 19, 2007 3:08 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Remember? She came back 'different', and he could hit her. Chip didn't work with Buffy anymore.

Oh yeah. I guess I kinda overlooked that tiny detail .

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