I feel sad for the Firefly fans here that can't/won't get into Buffy... by chrisisall

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
sad to say chris, having seen some sorry comments at wheedonesque - it cuts both ways.

Surely NOT!
Peeps exist that like Buffy and DO NOT like Firefly????

NO WAY Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:41 AM

I know for a fact that's true Chris. When Firefly was still very new, there were some people who were on one of the old Buffy boards that no longer exist that weren't even interested in trying it out.

Me? I didn't even like westerns and wasn't real crazy about sci-fi either (and Nathan was still Joey Buchanan from One Life to Live for me!) but I already adored and respected Joss so of course I was gonna at least give it a shot.

The fact that I'm here should tell you how THAT turned out!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:43 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:
September 20 2002
(SPOILER) Herc talks up Firefly 1.1 some more. Gives it four stars. "Better than most motion pictures."

Any readers here who will actually be seeing the show tonight?

Caroline | Firefly&Serenity | 11:13 CET | 4 comments total | tags:

I'll be Tivoing it tonight. I probably won't get around to watching it before Saturday night.

Leia | September 20, 22:16 CET

After 5 minutes I got bored. I guess I am not into the whole cowboys in space thing. Star Trek is one thing...they weren't actually dressing like cowboys.

birdwell | September 21, 01:12 CET

and so it goes...

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:49 AM

WOW.....

HmmmmmChrisisall

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:
September 20 2002
(SPOILER) Herc talks up Firefly 1.1 some more. Gives it four stars. "Better than most motion pictures."

Any readers here who will actually be seeing the show tonight?

Caroline | Firefly&Serenity | 11:13 CET | 4 comments total | tags:

I'll be Tivoing it tonight. I probably won't get around to watching it before Saturday night.

Leia | September 20, 22:16 CET

After 5 minutes I got bored. I guess I am not into the whole cowboys in space thing. Star Trek is one thing...they weren't actually dressing like cowboys.

birdwell | September 21, 01:12 CET

and so it goes...

But I was sort of feeling the same thing in the beginning, guys! For one, they started with the Train Job (and Joey Buchanan--

!!)!!! Not being into westerns or sci-fi, I was more or less looking for the "Jossness" of it. It took me awhile to get there, but I got there.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 7:57 AM

Yeah, TJ was the wrong place to start.

I mock U with my Niska pants Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:01 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Yeah, TJ was the wrong place to start.

I mock U with my Niska pants Chrisisall

Yes, it was. Still a good ep. IMO, but just not the best introduction.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You peeps that write Buffy off as high school mentality, vampire-bitey, Charmed-like nonsense are missing one of the best written works of art to ever exist, and what made Firefly POSSIBLE, I may add.

My thoughts about it in a nutshell, Chris!

Then again, Joss always said that if you couldn't handle a show with that title, you're not invited to the party!!!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:18 AM

WYTCHCROFT

Quote:

But I was sort of feeling the same thing in the beginning, guys! For one, they started with the Train Job (and Joey Buchanan--!!)!!! Not being into westerns or sci-fi, I was more or less looking for the "Jossness" of it. It took me awhile to get there, but I got there.

yeh but you... rule.

anyhow, it aint the dislike that matters (each to their own in this wide and shiny 'verse - see below)
it's the lack of SILENCE.

these whedonwatchers were the FIRST to comment and negatively about the 5 year anniversary!

if i don't like something - i just go - away - very - quietly.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:22 AM

BROWNCOAT2007

.... Probably the wrong board to bring this up on... but... well, I gave Buffy a chance, multipule times, and each and every time I found it funny and campish, and something that I would end up forggeting the next day... Buffy just doesn't do it for me folks, Angel and Firefly is where its at IMHO

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:58 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I mock U with my Niska pants

*snickering*

Man, Xander and Wash would've got along so well.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Man, Xander and Wash would've got along so well.

*Correcting you before Charlie does*

I believe you mean, Oz and Wash....

Chrisisall

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:14 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BrownCoat2007:
.... Probably the wrong board to bring this up on... but...

You must die now.
Somebody target the BrownCoat2007! FIRE!! SOMEBODY FIRE!!!

J/K man, to each their own, I just think maybe you haven't given it the chance you could have; but I might B wrong.

BfanChrisisall

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
*Correcting you before Charlie does*

hello?

I don't understand people who like one and not the other. prefering one, yeah, but to be so far apart that you love one enough to talk about it on t'interweb, and dislike like other so much that you... don't. that's weird...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 9:49 AM

DEATHISMYGIFT

I agree. Buffy is a very well written show. I'm with you, I'll eat my hat too.

"it's always complicated and at some point someone has to draw the line and that is always going to be me. you get down on me for cutting myself off but in the end the slayer is always cut off. there's no mystical guide book, no all knowing council, human rules don't apply. there's only me....i am the law" -Buffy the Vampire Slayer

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:17 AM

BROWNCOAT2007

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
You must die now.
Somebody target the BrownCoat2007! FIRE!! SOMEBODY FIRE!!!

J/K man, to each their own, I just think maybe you haven't given it the chance you could have; but I might B wrong.

BfanChrisisall

lol, like the partial use of sernity man!

I don't know, it's been a while since I last saw Buffy, thinkin' permabeyhaps I should rent the first season and give it another go...

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 10:27 AM

what seasons have you tried before?

the first isn't that amazing, especially compared to the polish of firefly.

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:51 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

After firefly I felt I had to check out other Joss-written shows, and so set out to explore the Bufffyverse, watching it with my little sister.

We only got as far as buffy series 5, then we were both fairly happy to give it up.

The characteristic Joss wit is there in the writing (though not always as polished as firefly), so the episodes were never a drag, but I guess I was generally unmoved (and even annoyed on occasion) by the themes. Part of this is that vampires and the supernatural doesn't do anything for me. But also I thought that in its themes and characterisation BTVS, while better than the average show, was inconsistent and fell short of firefly depth and maturity.

To fellow browncoats, unless you are especially interested in the world of vampires or the idea of a lone, kick-ass female heroine (whom you will be called upon to feel sorry for a lot), I wouldn't recommend the show as must see.

Heads should roll

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 2:57 PM

pssst, it's joss

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 3:44 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:

Buffy the movie was brilliant (please note: didn't say it was high quality film-making, said it was brilliant; there's a difference). It was brilliant because you can take a concept that is so far out in left field that nobody would ever think about it, and then spin a yarn off that concept which can keep people entertained for 90-120 minutes, just playing off the uniqueness of the whole thing. A "like"-using, gum-popping vampire hunter turns the whole monster genre on its ear. You take that concept and make the film not take itself too seriously, but at the same time not be a spoof, and you've got something that is just SO different that it has an appeal.

Now, you try to take that and turn it into a series. Not all movies translate that way. Take Stargate SG-1. You've got the movie. All it takes is for somebody to say "Suppose the Stargate goes to lots of places?" and the plot of the series practically writes itself. For Buffy, it's a bit trickier. For one thing, series tend to be a lot more about character growth because there is more time to deal with the gradual changes of people. But once Buffy stops being a vapid valley-chick and starts being a serious slayer, the uniqueness that drew people into the film is gone. Joss himself has said that early on, they just had this sort of "monster-of-the-week" format, which some people, even the kind of people who love FF, aren't going to be WOWed by.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of Buffy, but here is the thing. I'm not SUPPOSED to be a huge fan of Buffy. Part of Joss's brilliance is that he can write smart quality and commercial appeal at the same time. (Not sure what went wrong in that mix with FF. Yes I do. Stupid F*X.) Joss knows who his core audience is, and in the case of Buffy it wasn't me. The show is about female empowerment and finding strength in a strange world; it is like a coming of age story for the suburban american girl. The dialogue is still Joss-great, and they sure tried to lure the boys in with lots of eye-candy, but there really isn't anybody in the show that I relate to, and that is what is needed to draw somebody into shows that are as character-driven as Joss's. Also, given the teenage-female core audience (whether there's more to it or not, that is the core), much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them. (Angel, on the other hand, was marketed to me, and even though I'm not as obsessed over it as I am FF, I do like it.)

So, I don't necessarily think that people should be shocked that some Flans don't like Buffy. On the other hand, I hope that there aren't Browncoats out there cutting it down. It's one thing to say you don't like something and point out why, it is another thing to act like NOBODY should like it AT ALL.

All this must have a footnote: I DO NOT understand anybody who likes Buffy but does not like Firefly, for the simple reason that I do not understand ANYBODY who doesn't like Firefly, regardless of other tastes.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 4:35 PM

BROWNCOAT2007

Parts of 1-5...

never sat down and watched a whole season through, because it never really drew me in when it was on TV...

And, Chrisisall... don't shoot me, but for some reason I liked Charmed more than Buffy...

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 5:00 PM

MONKSDAD

start eating your Hat,,,not your Jayne hat,, just a hat. I Could never get into the Buffy.... I have a major SMG phobia, the chic just turns me off and annoys me. But do please enjoy your hat.

"And I think calling him that is an insult to the psychotic lowlife community."

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Sunday, September 23, 2007 8:21 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:

Buffy the movie was brilliant (please note: didn't say it was high quality film-making, said it was brilliant; there's a difference). It was brilliant because you can take a concept that is so far out in left field that nobody would ever think about it, and then spin a yarn off that concept which can keep people entertained for 90-120 minutes, just playing off the uniqueness of the whole thing. A "like"-using, gum-popping vampire hunter turns the whole monster genre on its ear. You take that concept and make the film not take itself too seriously, but at the same time not be a spoof, and you've got something that is just SO different that it has an appeal.

Now, you try to take that and turn it into a series. Not all movies translate that way. Take Stargate SG-1. You've got the movie. All it takes is for somebody to say "Suppose the Stargate goes to lots of places?" and the plot of the series practically writes itself. For Buffy, it's a bit trickier. For one thing, series tend to be a lot more about character growth because there is more time to deal with the gradual changes of people. But once Buffy stops being a vapid valley-chick and starts being a serious slayer, the uniqueness that drew people into the film is gone. Joss himself has said that early on, they just had this sort of "monster-of-the-week" format, which some people, even the kind of people who love FF, aren't going to be WOWed by.

Now, I'm not a huge fan of Buffy, but here is the thing. I'm not SUPPOSED to be a huge fan of Buffy. Part of Joss's brilliance is that he can write smart quality and commercial appeal at the same time. (Not sure what went wrong in that mix with FF. Yes I do. Stupid F*X.) Joss knows who his core audience is, and in the case of Buffy it wasn't me. The show is about female empowerment and finding strength in a strange world; it is like a coming of age story for the suburban american girl. The dialogue is still Joss-great, and they sure tried to lure the boys in with lots of eye-candy, but there really isn't anybody in the show that I relate to, and that is what is needed to draw somebody into shows that are as character-driven as Joss's. Also, given the teenage-female core audience (whether there's more to it or not, that is the core), much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them. (Angel, on the other hand, was marketed to me, and even though I'm not as obsessed over it as I am FF, I do like it.)

So, I don't necessarily think that people should be shocked that some Flans don't like Buffy. On the other hand, I hope that there aren't Browncoats out there cutting it down. It's one thing to say you don't like something and point out why, it is another thing to act like NOBODY should like it AT ALL.

All this must have a footnote: I DO NOT understand anybody who likes Buffy but does not like Firefly, for the simple reason that I do not understand ANYBODY who doesn't like Firefly, regardless of other tastes.

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

_____________________________________________________________________________

There, that says it better than I ever could. I just don't see why we SHOULD like it just because it's Joss. Yes he's a good writer, but you know what, there are others just as good who if given the chance (and no execs sticking their nose in) can come up with something just as brilliant. Frankly I'm getting a little annoyed at some who says to me you don't know Joss and his brilliance so I don't expect you to understand these characters (not you in particular Chris, but I've been told that by a few people on here and it's right pissed me off)

So the bottom line is, it doesn't matter if I don't swoon for Buffy AND Angel AND Firefly, because as I see it Joss created 3 shows that can find an audience and appeal to them. If you don't like BTVS or Angel, well that's fine, here's this amazing show about a ship and her 9 crew memebers. Or vise versa.

So don't feel sorry for me if I can't get into B or A, I'm fine with it. If I want to see angst I'll go watch Mal bein' all broody.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~Peter*Peter*Power>~re-peater~

HEROES IS MY CRACK!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Monday, September 24, 2007 12:36 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:
pssst, it's joss

I knew that...

Every so often I lapse I guess

anyway, edited to avoid further embarrassment.

Heads should roll

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Monday, September 24, 2007 7:11 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by wytchcroft:
Quote:

But I was sort of feeling the same thing in the beginning, guys! For one, they started with the Train Job (and Joey Buchanan--!!)!!! Not being into westerns or sci-fi, I was more or less looking for the "Jossness" of it. It took me awhile to get there, but I got there.

yeh but you... rule.

That's very sweet of you. Thank you.
And right back at ya!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 7:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
I've only given Buffy half a chance, but my take so far has been thusly:

....much of the character development was written to be more romantic-relationship-driven, less about people making brutally hard decisions and learning from them.

To each his own, I guess. I understand not having anyone to relate to in it (although I've got more Xander and Willow in me than anybody, I've found that there's a little of every character in my personality), but the part about it being "less about making brutally hard decisions and learning from them"? Ummm, what show were you actually watching? Isn't that what growing up is pretty much about? The beginning of that? I, for one, think she made some pretty huge brutally hard decisions, two of them being at the ends of Season 2 and 5. What about the one she would have made (if Anya and D'Hoffryn had not stepped in) at the end of "Selfless" in Season 7?

Not trying to spark a debate or anything, just disagreeing with some (most) of your statements.

I could lie and say I understand not liking the series, but I just can't. I respect your opinions, and I do understand some of your reasonings though. I realize Buffy was about female empowerment and all, and that Angel was more male-oriented, but guess what? I NEVER felt left out. I personally relate a lot to the characters, especially Angel and Wes.

But, to each his (or her) own.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"You let him get me. You let him get me."--Connor

For Joss!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:02 AM

JARHEAD

There's a LOT of background about me before I get to my point, please be patient:)

I started watching Buffy in very early season 4, although I had seen the season 2 Halloween episode and liked it. I even shipped Buffy/Riley, and I am perfectly willing to admit it. Mid- season I was going through re-runs when I found Angel and decided to give it a chance. Specifically I found the episode "Five by Five."

And all that I can say is, WOW. I had stopped watching Buffy by Season 6, but I stuck through Angel till the very end, even through the fourth season which was just plain horrible and the early fifth season continued the trend. At this time Dark Angel had descended into crap(season 2), and while I was sad to see it go, I was willing to give anything form Angel's creator a chance.

Obviously, since I've been a member here since '03, I liked Firefly:) In fact I believe it to be Mutant Enemy's best creation. BTW, I attended Liberty University(Jerry Falwell's Christian College) and was on the fringes at the school - they don't really know what to do with a libertarian comic book geek of faith there:) Firefly is VERY popular on campus, for those looking to have your minds blown. I introduced several to it, about fifty of us went to Serenity's premier, and we were just one group. Of the people that I introduced Firefly to, I also introduced Angel, but not a single one was at all interested in Buffy after seeing a few Buffy episodes that were important for Angel's backstory.

I guess it's birds of a feather, because all the people that liked Angel also had similar complaints about it that I did, and I refrained from complaining about things until they pointed them out specifically because I wanted an uninfluenced reaction. Then Tim Minear started making shows for Fox on his own, and I loved both of them too(still waiting for The Inside on DVD), and Joss had nothing to do with either of them. Then I went back and starting checking names most associated with my favorite moments/storylines/seasons in Angel, Firefly, and even Buffy.

I came to a heretical realization - Joss Whedon is over-rated.

That's right, I said it. All of my favorite things about his shows seemed to have happened because of someone else(Tim Minear, David Greenwalt, Jane Espenson). With Buffy, for the most part that wasn't really the case. That show he seemed to micromanage more than the others, and ladies, generally that's the one guys don't like. And it isn't because Buffy was such a "strong" woman, it's because she wasn't one.

Joss's version of feminism seems to be that strength comes by being horrible to those that you love, indecisive, arrogant, and generally all the things that women have hated about men for all of recorded history. If you want to know why more people aren't into Buffy, you should try looking at it from their perspective.

I’m never serious. Serious means something bad is about to happen.

98% of teens have smoked pot, if you are one of the 2% that haven't, copy this into your signature

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:45 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Jarhead.

Interesting comments and nicely delivered. However thing is Buffy is actually far more popular than Angel and Firefly put together.

What that means I wouldn't care to say.

However, what Buffy may be, as it is now ten years old is; dated. So it maybe harder to enjoy if starting now, more so than the other shows.

Interesting observation about Tim Minear. I generally felt he made the stronger shows for Angel too, but he also made some which I couldn't stand. And I'm not sure but I think he had a more significant involvement in season four. (but I'd have to check on that)

All told though, pound for pound I will always adore Buffy.
Having started Buffy from season One when it first aired I can now look back and rewatch buffy from a sense of nostalgia as well as pure entertainment. For me personally, the enjoyement is still there.

www.cirqus.com

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Monday, September 24, 2007 12:49 PM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

To each his own, I guess...

but the part about it being "less about making brutally hard decisions and learning from them"? Ummm, what show were you actually watching? Isn't that what growing up is pretty much about? The beginning of that? I, for one, think she made some pretty huge brutally hard decisions, two of them being at the ends of Season 2 and 5. What about the one she would have made (if Anya and D'Hoffryn had not stepped in) at the end of "Selfless" in Season 7?...

I realize Buffy was about female empowerment and all, and that Angel was more male-oriented, but guess what? I NEVER felt left out. I personally relate a lot to the characters, especially Angel and Wes.

But, to each his (or her) own.

Addict, like I said, I only gave Buffy half a chance. I've seen a handful of episodes, mostly because of my brother-in-law. So I have no frame of reference for the specific episodes you mentioned.

As for brutal choices, in the episodes I saw, Buffy's choices mostly came down to "Go try to kill this thing and risk your life, or else lots of people you care about, and possibly countless other thousands, will die, be enslaved, etc." That isn't much of a choice. As for growing up being about making "brutally hard choices," I'd say unless you're growing up in some war-torn wasteland, very few of us have "brutal" choices to make during our upbringing or adolescence. And I'm not just saying this in hindsight; maybe I'm just an old soul, but I knew even at 16 that nobody was going to die if I didn't ask this girl to the prom. (Which I didn't, and for all the WRONG reasons, but it was the best decision I've made, since due to the cosmic chain reaction we call 'life,' not doing so put me in place to fall in love with and marry my wife, which was, in turn, the BEST decision I've made, and for all the RIGHT reasons... But I digress...)

Maybe there is more morally gray content in Buffy, and maybe it is in the episodes you mentioned, but I haven't seen it, and the episodes I did see never left me dying for more, didn't draw me up to those points you mentioned. The time and effort put into the romantic relationships was wearying to me, a barrier to further involvement with the show. And don't get me wrong, it isn't that love relationships in shows bother me. The Mal/Inara relationship produced some of the most rewarding moments in Firefly (and for any of you who are reluctant to characterize their relationship as a love/romantic relationship, just re-watch the moment when Mal urges Inara to leave during the Reaver threat in "Serenity," the way he lightly touches her shoulder as he says her name... That moment says it all, and it was meant to.). I don't feel that any of the romantic misadventures of Buffy and crew were ever portrayed with that level of maturity or heart; I had trouble feeling sympathetic for the characters involved. Again, though, my emotional experiences are not what that show was meant to resonate with, and I am fine with that. I'm glad Buffy was/is out there dealing with different themes for a different audience, and of course any intellignetly written show is going to draw from other audiences as well. I hear that Buffy seasons are down to something like $12 on Amazon, or some such, and as a result I've been thinking about giving it another, better chance, now that I have a greater appreciation for Joss. I'm not sure that will change my mind, though, and unless it does, I'm going to have to stay firm in my opinion that Buffy is not for everybody, and not for me.

(And though I may joke otherwise, as a writer I can't believe that Firefly is for everybody either. If you've ever written something that "everyone can enjoy" then you've probably written something so tepid in its themes that it isn't really SPEAKING to anybody.)

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Monday, September 24, 2007 1:52 PM

SAFEAT2ND

FINALLY!! Someone besides me that liked the movie but not the series. Thank-you SchoolboysWink! And I agree the movie wasn't meant to be taken seriously. it was a perfect example of a B-movie.

I'm with Monksdad too, Sarah Michelle Geller gives me a serious case of shut-the-tv-off-now. I find her neither talented nor particularily fetching.

Now I didn't mind Angel and I'm a fan of Vampire and Were-wolf movies so I guess I don't fall into the mold. So, I did give it a chance while it was on TV, and I don't begrudge anyone liking it.

Joss makes something for everyone and I think in doing that, draws people together mindless of their varying tastes.

_______________________________________________________________
"Got a headful of lightning
And a heart full of rain
And I know that I said
I'd never do it again
Oh and I love you sweet baby but I always take the long way home."

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Monday, September 24, 2007 6:24 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
FINALLY!! Someone besides me that liked the movie but not the series. Thank-you SchoolboysWink! And I agree the movie wasn't meant to be taken seriously. it was a perfect example of a B-movie.

Agreed. I actually liked Kristy Swnson's portrayal better. And hey, Paul Ruebens death scene? So freaken funny.

Quote:
I'm with Monksdad too, Sarah Michelle Geller gives me a serious case of shut-the-tv-off-now. I find her neither talented nor particularily fetching.

Agreed. The first time I mentioned this here I got a... rather chilly reception. Fingernails on a chalk board to me. And not just her, just the whole cast rubbed me wrong.

Quote:
Joss makes something for everyone and I think in doing that, draws people together mindless of their varying tastes.

Hey I think I mentioned that. Nice to see some agree here. We're a diverse group who arent always going to like the same things and agree, but at least some things we can and well.... well that's somethin'

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~Peter*Peter*Power>~re-peater~

HEROES IS MY CRACK!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Monday, September 24, 2007 8:18 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by safeat2nd:
And I agree the movie wasn't meant to be taken seriously. it was a perfect example of a B-movie.

It wasn't meant to be taken seriously by the director, who "raped" Joss's original vision for the movie by saying the movie was "a pop-culture movie about what people THINK about vampires" or something like that. The bottom line, the director, Fran Kuzui, is an ass, IMHO, and should NEVER be allowed to direct anything EVER again!!!!

Thankfully, Joss got his dream back and he shared it with us!!!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 8:22 PM

As much as I don't care for SMG as a person, (I think she's a big phony), I can't deny that she's a good actress and was right for Buffy.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 8:36 PM

MISSTRESSAHARA

Quote:
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously by the director, who "raped" Joss's original vision for the movie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whoa, harsh. Bottom line for me, I'll take the movie over the show. Don't expect EVERYONE to like every thing Joss did. That's narrow thinking.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
~Peter*Peter*Power>~re-peater~

HEROES IS MY CRACK!

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:22 PM

You misinterpreted my meaning (AGAIN). It wasn't said in response to everyone else's opinion. I don't expect that, just don't understand ANYONE not liking Buffy or Angel. And I was simply expressing the same opinion I've had about the director for YEARS now. I've said virtually the same thing before. Nothing to do with anyone here.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Monday, September 24, 2007 11:26 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
That's narrow thinking.

Ummm...it's "narrow" thinking to not understand why anyone wouldn't like either of those shows?

But it's open-minded to not understand anyone that does like them, as you feel?

Whatever.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 2:04 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
Quote:
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously by the director, who "raped" Joss's original vision for the movie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whoa, harsh.

that's what happened though, it's documented fact...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:36 AM

SCHOOLBOYSWINK

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
That's narrow thinking.

Ummm...it's "narrow" thinking to not understand why anyone wouldn't like either of those shows?

But it's open-minded to not understand anyone that does like them, as you feel?

Whatever.

Now, now, hang on a second. I don't remember Mistressahara in particular, or any of the non-Buffy-fans who've posted here in general, stating that we "don't understand anybody that does like" Buffy or Angel. I think those that aren't so crazy about the show/s have been reasonably respectful in stating their cases for why they, personally, did not like the shows, but not bashing them or acting as though nobody should like them, or that they were inherently "BAD," or anything like that. I think it's been a pretty friendly and rational debate so far, and I'm enjoying it. Personally, I apologize to the Buffy fans if anything I said could have been misconstrued as bashing the show or implying that their opinion of liking it was in any way "wrong."

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 7:54 AM

VIOLYNS

Just thought I'd throw in a few thoughts...

I watched Firefly for the first time last year (after watching Serenity). And recently, a fellow browncoat gave me Season 1 of Buffy to watch. She said, "It's silly and campy, but just watch it." Having known my strange dislike of Sarah Michelle Gellar, she thought I deserved to give it a chance. So, with her warnings, I sat down, turned the DVD player on...

and didn't turn it off till I had finished the whole thing. She immediately gave me the next season, which I got through in a short amount of time as well. I've now just finished Season 5 and can't wait until I get Season 6. I really really disliked Sarah Michelle Gellar, but have been really impressed with her most of the time. She's turned around in my eyes. (especially after Season 5!! *cries*)

I gave it a chance and ended up liking it, even with my SMG creepy-crawlies. I recommend other browncoats do so.

-----
~mia
"I will never cease to fly if held down."

Serenifly Costumes http://serenifly.tripod.com

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:04 AM

I actually thought SMG just got better as she went along.
I saw the movie first, and always LIKED that actress, so accepting SMG was a toughie, but happen it did.

OMWFChrisisall

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:
Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
Quote:
It wasn't meant to be taken seriously by the director, who "raped" Joss's original vision for the movie

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Whoa, harsh.

that's what happened though, it's documented fact...

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

Yup.

Here's some facts
about it...and pretty much why I feel so strongly
against the director of the movie.

From The Genius Behind Buffy Joss's biography by Candace Havens:

Joss:"...I had never studied writing, or thought of myself as a writer exactly. I always assumed I would write whatever I made, but I never really gave it much thought. Then I sat down and really tried to write a script and found the great happiness of my life."

Writing turned out to be his true passion. His first job was Roseanne. Near the end of that year, he married Kai (who inspired a lot of Buffy the show and character) and he began working on the script for the movie. He eve worked on it during his honeymoon. When the script was finished, he pitched it to studios. He received favorable comments but no one was willing to take a risk on an unusual script by an unknown screenwriter. Most of the executives who rejected the script thought it was entertaining but didn't think there would be an audience.

He became a script doctor for The Getaway and The Quick and the Dead, and began getting larger and more lucrative script assignments, and ultimately became one of the most important script doctors in Hollywood. But early in his script-doctor career, came his big break---BUFFY was picked up.

Joss had a powerful vision for BUFFY.

"The idea for the film came from seeing too many blondes walking into dark alleys and being killed. I wanted, just once, for her to fight back when the monster attacked, and kick his ass."

Joss's vision included the integration of elements rarely seen together--horror, action, comedy and heart-wrenching emotion. Joss optioned the script to Sandollar Producions (the founders? Dolly Parton and her manager), who offered the script to Kaz and Fran Kuzui. THey agreed, provided Fran could direct.

Fran: "The instant I saw the title, I knew this was a film I had to make. Five pages into the script and I was hooked. The more I read, the more I was attracted to the world that Joss created. Here's a girl, a high school cheerleader, who's suddenly being told she's something else."

The Kuzui's were able to sell the concept to 20th Century Fox, who funded $9 million picture in exchange for worldwide rights. BUFFY would become a reality and would be distributed by a major studio. Joss was thrilled. But his excitement soon turned to vexation and then horror as the production proceeded. What Joss discovered was how painful it is to have other people meddling with, and, from his perspective, destroying, his creations.

In fairness to Joss, it's pretty clear that Fran Kuzui had an unusual interpretation of Joss's script. As she tells it, BUFFY "isn't a vampire movie, but a pop culture comedy about what people think about vampires." Emphasizing comedy at the expense of horror or genuine emotion, Kuzui created a very mediocre film. But observent critics noted the first-rate script that underlay the third-rate film. James Brundage of filmcritic.com noted that "the performances, admittedly, are lacking. The direction is downright bad...but all this is made up for in spades with one ofthe most finely crafted formula scripts courtesy of Joss Whedon." The Fort Worth Star Telegram stated that Whedon's "script [was] too witty for the director Kuzui's dreary
handling." Time magazine declared that Kuzui's "frenzied mistrust of her material is almost total."

Like a slowly developing horror movie, Joss observed the gradual degradation of his script over the course of the filming. THere were days when Whedon didn't want to go near the set because he feared the worst. His hip, scary script had been turned into a silly, campy film. There was nothing he could do about the miscasting or rewriting.

"It was crushing, I had written this scary film about an empowered woman, and they turned it into a broad comedy. It was terrible and a great lesson for me. I knew in the future that I would find a way to do things in a different way."

Joss went back to being a script-doctor. He ejoyed it, but it didn't leave him fulfilled, at the end of the day. Everything he had written had either been ruined on the screen or it had been changed enough so that it was no longer fully his work.

Gail Berman, an exec with Sandollar Productions, decided that BUFFY would make a great tv show. Berman believed the concept had great potential, and even more, she recognised the potential of Joss Whedon. It took a bit of cajoling t get Joss to consider tv possibilities for BUFFY. Joss loved the movies.

Joss came to the realization that tv might be able to give him what he craved-genuine creative control over the final product.

Joss has never been hateful toward Kuzui though, only saying that she ruined the script, to my knowledge. That's okay though. I've got his back in that department!

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:37 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by SchoolboysWink:
Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
Quote:
Originally posted by Misstressahara:
That's narrow thinking.

Ummm...it's "narrow" thinking to not understand why anyone wouldn't like either of those shows?

But it's open-minded to not understand anyone that does like them, as you feel?

Whatever.

Now, now, hang on a second. I don't remember Mistressahara in particular, or any of the non-Buffy-fans who've posted here in general, stating that we "don't understand anybody that does like" Buffy or Angel. I think those that aren't so crazy about the show/s have been reasonably respectful in stating their cases for why they, personally, did not like the shows, but not bashing them or acting as though nobody should like them, or that they were inherently "BAD," or anything like that. I think it's been a pretty friendly and rational debate so far, and I'm enjoying it. Personally, I apologize to the Buffy fans if anything I said could have been misconstrued as bashing the show or implying that their opinion of liking it was in any way "wrong."

"When you can't do somethin' smart, do somethin' right!" -Jayne Cobb quotes Shepherd Book

Actually, she has, and that's fine. That's her opinion.

I am NOT offended by someone not liking Buffy, that's her interpretation, and it's obviously yours, and you're both wrong.

What I said was that I don't understand not liking BUffy or Angel, which I still don't and that's not going to change. Doesn't mean I take it as an insult.

But to call my not understanding that perspective "narrow thinking", jsut because it's the opposite of hers?

I'm not the one interested in fighting here. I didn't start anything. She was apparently misinformed about the facts surrounding the making of the movie and it led her to misinterpret what I said and why I said it.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 8:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I actually thought SMG just got better as she went along.
I saw the movie first, and always LIKED that actress, so accepting SMG was a toughie, but happen it did.

OMWFChrisisall

Shed my first tears over this show for something other than laughter during the "I'm 16 years old, I don't want to die" speech ("Prophecy Girl", Season 1's finale).

Truly heartbreaking!

But, of course, she ended up making that difficult decision to sacrifice herself to save others, anyway.

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:08 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

Shed my first tears over this show for something other than laughter during the "I'm 16 years old, I don't want to die" speech ("Prophecy Girl", Season 1's finale).

Truly heartbreaking!

That was pretty much the moment that SMG totally won me over.

*snif*Chrisisall

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:17 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

Shed my first tears over this show for something other than laughter during the "I'm 16 years old, I don't want to die" speech ("Prophecy Girl", Season 1's finale).

Truly heartbreaking!

That was pretty much the moment that SMG totally won me over.

10 years later, and it STILL gets to me!

(Yep I've watched since the VERY beginning!

)

***********************************************
"They talk about me in the chatty rooms?"--Angel

"I'm 1120 years old. Just give me a frigging beer!"--Anya

"All I had to do is want it bad enough...and guess what I want to do now, you prissy son of a bitch?"--Spike

For Joss!

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:20 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I actually got through that episode without crying, although I did get a shiver at that speech.

Willow and Buffy's reaction to Giles' phone call in 'Passions', however, made me sob.

And don't even get me started on that "close your eyes" scene in 'Becoming Part II'

Even the littlest Joss chicks are absolutely kickass
Banners, Avatars, LJ Icons and other fun stuff at www.desktophippie.com

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Tuesday, September 25, 2007 9:23 AM