Is thinking that Serenity is not the best SF film ever made a form of insanity? by chrisisall

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Is thinking that Serenity is not the best SF film ever made a form of insanity?

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Tuesday, January 20, 2009 06:03
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VIEWED: 2275
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Monday, January 19, 2009 7:39 AM

Blade Runner...2001...Planet Of The Apes...yeah they're good and all, but really...better than Serenity???

I THINK NOT!

NOW,WHO'S WITH ME??

The Ash-like Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 7:55 AM

LEEDAVIDT

i've watched bladerunner,planet of the apes and 2001 a dozen times i'm sure...
i like the BDM because it was another installment of some much needed firefly,especially after watching the series on dvd over and over again...
maybe the BDM might not go down in history as the best Sci-Fi flick of all time ...
as for me, i'm a sci-fi junky and firefly/serenity will always be on the top of my favorite movies...course i like 2001 and bladerunner too... :)p.s. answer to your question...YES...insane ! JK

Tracey: Uh, okay. Uh, recording. Hi, I guess. This is a message for Zoe, and for Malcolm Reynolds. And I really hope you all are the ones listening to it. I'll spare you the boring details. I've fallen in with untrustworthy folk. Makin' a bunch of bad calls. All that matters is… I expect to be shuffled off. And you two are the only people I trust to get me where I'm going, which is home. I'd like my body to be with my folks on St. Albans. We got the family plot there, and my Mom and Dad, well, they deserve to know I died. You know, it's funny. We went to the war never lookin' to come back, but it's… it's the real world I couldn't survive. You two carried me through that war. Now I need you to carry me just a little bit further… if you can. Tell my folks I wanted to do right by them, and that I'm at peace, and all. Uh… When you can't run anymore, you crawl, and when you can't do that, well… Yeah, you know the rest. Thanks, b-both of you. Oh, yeah, and, uh… make sure my eyes is closed, will ya?

http://www.myspace.com/leedavidt

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Monday, January 19, 2009 8:00 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by leedavidt:
p.s. answer to your question...YES...insane !

Response approved.

The

y Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 9:22 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Blade Runner...2001...Planet Of The Apes...yeah they're good and all, but really...better than Serenity???

I THINK NOT!

NOW,WHO'S WITH ME??

The Ash-like Chrisisall

There is no film better than SERENITY.

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Monday, January 19, 2009 10:25 AM

CHRISISALL

More sanity verbalized. Good.

The approving Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 11:48 AM

CHRISISALL

...and the sanity ends here...?

The disappointed Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 11:57 AM

BYTEMITE

I can't think of any that are better... Haven't seen that many recently either, to be honest. I can compare it to Star Wars, though, and I think it comes out ahead.

I have been a Star Wars fan for a long time, still am. But even though A New Hope is still one hundred percent awesome and some of the extended universe books are really good and the first KOTOR was an amazing game... Even if you take out the force powers and aliens...

The Serenity/Firefly verse is more realistic and deals with more complicated themes.

I actually have written up a big long analysis between the two, but I realized not everyone likes to read big long analyses, so I took it out before I posted. >_>

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Monday, January 19, 2009 12:07 PM

CHRISISALL

THANK YOU!!!
Wow, I feel the love!

The BDH-obsessed Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 12:20 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

Sorry, I'm insane...

I find 2001 to be just BIGGER overall - more epic, more hugeness of the tale it's trying to tell (whatever the hell that tale is... ;) ). 2001 is more the "big answers to even bigger questions" genre of sci-fi, IMHO.

I find Blade Runner to deal with more existential questions - what is a man? What makes him a human? Are we more than the sum of our thoughts and experiences? Are we just electrical impulses, which once flickered out are left and forgotten? And then there's that whole Christian imagery thing with the nail through the hand and the white dove, a death, a redemption, and a kind of rebirth...

I find Star Wars: A New Hope to be an utterly contemptible movie if judged merely on its "acting" chops, but an entirely groundbreaking movie based solely on its special effects. Let's face it - what 2001 started - the whole "look" of space - Star Wars perfected. And it's a rousing story, if an entirely simple one. It's exactly what was needed at the time, though, and that's no small accomplishment.

Serenity I find to be a fantastic actioner, with fun and fear in equal amounts, with action outside and internal conflict, with happiness and sadness - in short, a fantastic movie, but not necessarily a fantastic SCI-FI movie. Does that make sense? I think Serenity fell short in the box office because people who like the human drama it contains don't like sci-fi (or so they tell me, until I *make* them watch!), and people who like sci-fi tend to like more shooty-shooty, less talky-talky.

So while Serenity is a fantastic movie, it falls a bit short of the best sci-fi movies - by being better and more well-rounded than they are!

So I'm insane, but in a very sane way...

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, January 19, 2009 12:42 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:

I find 2001 to be just BIGGER overall - more epic, more hugeness of the tale it's trying to tell

It's about an alien playing God with us, and not coming out and honestly doing what Klatu did. *Yawn*

Quote:

I find Blade Runner to deal with more existential questions - what is a man? What makes him a human? Are we more than the sum of our thoughts and experiences?

It's about making an anti-slavery message with pretty photography. Roots for the 21st. Wow.

Quote:

I find Star Wars: A New Hope to be an utterly contemptible movie if judged merely on its "acting" chops, but an entirely groundbreaking movie based solely on its special effects.

It's about copying a Japanese movie, set in space- how original. Cool FX that we would be seeing in Alien & Outland anyway. Ho hum.

Quote:

Serenity I find to be a fantastic actioner, with fun and fear in equal amounts, with action outside and internal conflict, with happiness and sadness - in short, a fantastic movie, but not necessarily a fantastic SCI-FI movie.

It was about self-damnation, ultimate redemption, the perversion of government, and faith in the power of truth. Set in a SF 'Verse, it told a relatable, timeless story of the way of heroes, big & small. And how we can all be as such, if we just believe.
No small message there.

Quote:
Does that make sense?

Now that I put it in perspective, yes.

The only semi-serious obsessed Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 1:31 PM

KWICKO

And Casablanca is just about a guy and a gal, huh?

The not at all serious Kwickoisall.

Mike

"It is complete now; the hands of time are neatly tied."

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Monday, January 19, 2009 1:36 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Chris, you may be insane, but not necessarily for this reason, even though I still don't agree with you.

I've said many times that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the best SF film of all time, and it's #3 overall of any type of film on my list.

Blade Runner is my second favorite SF film, but it doesn't make it into my Top 10 overall, maybe the Top 20.

Serenity is the third best SF film I have ever seen (and I've seen most of them). Not sure where it will eventually end up on my complete list.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Monday, January 19, 2009 2:03 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:

I've said many times that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the best SF film of all time

A small piece of my mind says that 2001 and Solaris fit the bill for best SF of all time, but the rest of me rebels, is independent, and says again that Serenity beats them both out!!!

The maybe-it's-the-Pax Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 2:03 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Kwicko:
And Casablanca is just about a guy and a gal, huh?

I thought it was all about Sam....

The confused Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 2:30 PM

BYTEMITE

In my defense, I don't think Star Wars: A New Hope was ever meant to be deep, but rather to be simply enjoyed. I think that's where the newer movies lost their way, they tried to be more than that.

But yes, being that it's such a simple story, other Sci-Fi movies can easily qualify as better. And I think Serenity IS one of them.

I enjoy them both.

And I also think discussing soft Sci-Fi versus hard Sci-Fi may be like the old apples to oranges metaphor. Can you really compare a movie like 2001 to Serenity? They're different on so many levels.

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Monday, January 19, 2009 2:58 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Can you really compare a movie like 2001 to Serenity? They're different on so many levels.

Yeah, Serenity is more human. The most human character in 2001 is HAL (which is, I suppose, the point).

The IBM Chrisisall

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Monday, January 19, 2009 3:56 PM

CHRISTHECYNIC

[cheating]
When I first showed Firefly to one of my friends his shocked response was that it was movie quality.

With that in mind, I think the episode Serenity is the best SF film of all time. A bit on the short side though. (Though Out of Gas is my favorite episode.)
[/cheating]

Personally, I disapprove of Science Fiction as a genre. I have yet to meet a story that can't be told in Sci Fi, I have yet to meet a genre that can't be fit in Sci Fi. It is too broad to be meaningful.

Also, generally speaking I set Firefly and Serenity aside so that others might have a chance.

Add to that the fact that I don't usually pick favorites and ... I'm insane anyway. Seriously, why am I even talking about this?

That said I'm not thinking Serenity is not the best SF Film of all time, I'm just not thinking it is. Consider me agnostic on best. I avoid naming something best the way I might avoid a plague.

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Monday, January 19, 2009 6:25 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

There's a lot of competition to overcome.
If you're saying Pilot Serenity is tops, that's a better argument.
Terminator, Galaxy Quest, Road Warrior, Aliens, Matrix, and even Total Recall had most of the points you bring up.

I know some feel 2001: is the be all to end all, but I'm not there. I'll go with BDM over that.
I can be agnostic for this thread.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 3:01 AM

JOKERMONT

Sci-fi is cursed with being a genre that is referred to as being shallow. Generic themes repeated over and over again. Similar plot lines. Aliens. Advanced weaponry. 2 dimensional characters that fit their role very well, but don't expand upon it throughout their series.
This is where Firefly differed as I'm sure we all know here. The characters were so true to life in different ways. There were no aliens. There were monsters, but human monsters similar to human monsters that exist in our own Universe. Our protagonist grew and learned throughout Firefly, but not just how to be braver or stronger, but also how to deal with his closeness to other human beings which is something that is very noticeable from the Serenity episode to the film. All the characters focused around him each had their own 3 dimensional personalities. They all learned, about each other as well as themselves and they all, in their own ways, grew.

I think this is what made the BDM such a great film. We knew the characters so well. They weren't shallow. Not remotely. We'd watched them advance through Firefly (through some incredible scripting) and although some personalities had to be taken back a notch (like Mal and Simon) due to the relationship between them having to arc from the beginning again to satisfy that yearning for a relationship growth in a feature length piece, we still felt close to them more than you can, I think, in any other sci-fi movie. We love them. From the off. I don't think a love can be beaten by anything.

So, to answer your question.
I think it is the greatest sci-fi film ever.
Maybe not for it's technical aspects as a film, but for it's former relationship between the audience and Firefly.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 5:46 AM

DREAMTROVE

Chris,

Ya got me. You know that I'm insane, so I'm going to have to go with no. There were parts of BDM I thought were awesome, I even liked when wash got killed, because it was a "no more mr. nice guy" moment.

As a through story, Serenity BDM was slightly disappointing. The high points were River going psycho. Actually, I thought the first one was brilliant, the seen where she goes all Manchurian Candidate on us, which, lets face it, is what this story is.

There are no new stories. Everything is built on older stories, and probably the most innovative non-anime/manga stories, Philip K Dick. There's a man who boldly went where no man had gone before. The best of these is Bladerunner, because Dick was still alive to edit the script, still, there are flaws, particularly in the editing. If all you got out of this film was slavery, then I think you missed the point.

Serenity didn't break new ground, it travelled old ground. It's a great episode of Firefly, not entirely consistent with the rest, but I'm not even sure it's the best episode of Firefly.

There are innovations and twists that could have been used here. The film was uplifting, triumphant, and unrealistic. The whole Mr. Universe thing didn't work for me. Reaver science also flunked chem101. This is a Verse of tragedy. The tragic story doesn't necessarily end in everyone dying. But it's also a western. I think you ride off into the sunset, but I don't think you set everything right with the world.

Twisted is what I like. River should have turned on the crew. Killed someone. On of the characters who was going to die anyway. I would have loved the thing to take the somewhat obvious turn that it took, which is River as a reaveresque manchurian candidate, I have to say I saw that one coming from maybe ep. 1, but that's what made the story of the show so great. We all knew it wasn't Jayne who was a danger to the crew. There were times went I thought Book might be a serious threat, but it didn't materialize.

Overall, it was a good movie. I saw it in a mixed group of half Firefly fans and half not. It was a clean split. Everyone liked it, but the non-fans put it up there with a 7-8, and the fans were like on 9-10 imdb. One of the non fans actually was enthusiatic, he said "wow, there's more of this stuff? Where can I get it?

Also, I know that the film that I was waiting for was one which glimpsed into the shadows of the beyong the rim, so to speak, hints, leading us in to more story. I think Joss had something like this planned, but the time came and he knew it was a one shot deal, and there was not going to be a serenity two. This is a tough position to be in as a story teller. Still, knowing there were other venues, I would have had less of a final showdown, and more of a creepy setup.

Okay, sure, I can nitpick Bladerunner and just about everything (major flaws: editing. The repetition, flashbacks to 15 minutes ago, the bogus voiceover that no one wanted except the ex. producer, or the unicorn Legend splice which totally changed the meaning of Almos' last origami.) We don't need to be hit over the head with that conclusion, it's so obvious in the film already. But the main flaw in the film is the showdown, again. It comes down to fist fight stuff. Our defenders have IQs of 200, they can come up with something insanely clever, not just insane. Only Pris Stratton does anything remotely clever here. I guess Roy Batty's chess finesse, but both of them blow it by ditching the clever in front of the insane. I mean, honestly, guys, If we, the human viewer, can figure it out, surely the characters can, given how smart they should be. Kudos though to Hannah for one of the sexiest performances ever.

God does this even need a spoiler? You guys have seen this film a dozen times

Select to view spoiler:

The film is not about slavery, it's about nexus 7 replacing nexus 6, ie. evolution, or planned obsolescence. It's a tragedy.

Star Wars was the first film I saw, I was young, and I was scared, but it was awesome. I'd say most films were a disappointment after that. I recognize that there's not much too star wars other than 2001 effects to a classic fantasy story, but I have trouble slowing the pace down to 2001.

After Nikita and Leon, I expected more from the 5th element (Messenger is not sci-fi but also worth seeing.) Again, fun, and Milla gets creds for a sexy role.

Overall, Bladerunner still. I think that there are others, I just haven't seen them. I want to pull a

THREADJACK!

Sorry, and ask if anyone else wants to step outside the box and recommend some films that Firefly fans might like, deep, complicated.

I just watched Elven Lied, which is oddly reminiscent of S.E.Lain, while having nothing in common. Much more coherent, and a borderline hentai bloodbath, and yes, Frem, Lucy is a masterpiece. She definitely would put Niska to shame, and I don't just mean that she would kick his ass.

I'm going to gnaw this over, but I want people to throw in, if possible, stuff that everyone hasn't already seen.

Okay 12 monkeys, ...most of Gilliam
Jeunet's City of the lost Children was good
13th Floor, not perfect, but very decent.

Just as a starter list, I'm skipping things that I *know* y'all have seen. Probably you've seen the above.

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Tuesday, January 20, 2009 6:03 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:

If all you got out of this film was slavery, then I think you missed the point.

Nahh, just Devil's Adving. It was my favourite film ever until Serenity.

Quote:

Overall, it was a good movie.

ENNNNH. Wrong answer Hans. It was GREAT!!!

Quote:

Okay, sure, I can nitpick Bladerunner and just about everything (major flaws: editing. The repetition, flashbacks to 15 minutes ago, the bogus voiceover

I LIKED the voice-over. And I'm glad they didn't use the original voice-over, that was TOO much info.

Quote:

THREADJACK!

Sorry, and ask if anyone else wants to step outside the box and recommend some films that Firefly fans might like, deep, complicated.

I'm up for a good threadjack.
Solaris with Cloony.
Gattaca.
Army Of Darkness.

The laughing Chrisisall

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