Kaylee's sexuality. Was it toned down? by stillson

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Kaylee's sexuality. Was it toned down?

POSTED BY: STILLSON
UPDATED: Tuesday, February 10, 2009 23:40
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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:02 AM

One of the more interesting angles on Kaylee's character is her unashamed sexuality. From the way she gets onto Serenity in "Out of gas", to telling Inara to "have good sex", she shows how she likes sex, and is not ashamed of it.

She gets one good comment in Serenity ("nothing twixt my nethers....") which supports this.

But, Jayne gets away with talking more about sex, albeit only when he's paying for it somehow.

My point though, is was her sexuality toned down to make her a "Nice Girl". Was Joss trying to sneak a sex-positive character into his series? Probably. But was she toned down to make her likable?

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:13 AM

STORYMARK

Toned down from what? Seems she was fairly consistant in that regard, all the way up through Serenity.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:18 AM

BYTEMITE

I'm not sure it would have needed to be toned down to make her likeable. I'm pretty sure so long as Kaylee was still depicted as eternally cheerful, friendly, optimistic, and sympathetic, she could have had a new crush and a sweaty scene every episode and no one would've thought less of her.

She switched her focus pretty quickly from Simon to Tracey for the brief time he was around, and they didn't show this in a negative light. So I don't think HOW they depict her sexuality is misleading from her character, or implies that she is any less 'eager,' so to speak.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 8:25 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

It's kind of funny, when I got my best friend into the show, she loved Kaylee, and saw her as very sweet and innocent. Which she is, but not the way most people think of innocent in relation to sex. When we watched "Out of Gas" the look on her face when she realized the gal Bester was humping to be Kaylee was just priceless. She thought it was great, though.
I don't think she was 'toned down' in that respect so much as her cheery and really rather innocent manner tempered the possible 'slut' characterization. She liked men, she liked attention, she liked sex, but she wasn't skanky about it. Which, really, is a good thing to see portrayed, since so often the cultural connotation is that any woman who likes sex is a skank. Clearly an unfair and untrue connotation, but it's there, and I think it's an unhealthy kind of view to have. Joss clearly thinks so, too.

[/sig]

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:13 AM

BYTEMITE

Agreed!

Although, I think Joss kinda changes his mind about that aspect of Kaylee's character by the movie. The official statement is that Kaylee LOVES Simon, and apparently that had to be the case before the two of them could have sex.

Not to mention how Inara's profession is viewed seems to throw all kinds of contradictions into that. But in regards to Kaylee, I generally agree.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:35 AM

BLUESUNCOMPANYMAN

The point about Kaylee is that she wears her emotions on her sleeve. This was shown to us in Objects in Space when River's psychic journey through the ship led her to observe secrets that crew members kept private. In the sequence when Simon delivers his secret, Kaylee stares at River with a flat blank expression. This is a result of a lack of something for River to read.

That OIS sequence gifted us with a reverse reflection a character who is forever free with her words and deeds. Thus we are further blessed with statements like: "I ain't had nothin twixt my nethers weren't run on batteries" Jewel herself said that she first delivered that line in a hushed tone but Joss called cut to tell her that Kaylee would not hesitate to place such an unabashed thought out there for people to hear.

I've also read another interesting paper reflecting on the differences between Kaylee and Inara in respect to sexuality. Where Inara is organized about her life and spiritual in respect to sex, Kaylee is the converse. To be cruder, Inara makes love to clients after a courtship where Kaylee is likely to F*** some mechanic she just met in his engine room.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 10:13 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The official statement is that Kaylee LOVES Simon, and apparently that had to be the case before the two of them could have sex.

So "With me...? You mean to say... as in... sex?" is the new "I love you" is it?

[/sig]

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:06 AM

BYTEMITE

Well, no, I didn't mean the exact quote from the characters in the film, but what Joss Whedon has reportedly said about Kaylee and Simon's relationship. I wasn't there in person, but I've seen in writting that Joss Whedon has said that the two LURVE each other.

Although admittedly, that's more Simon dragging his heels than it is a commentary on women and sexuality as depicted in the media. Still. The love before sex fiction standard holds true.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:58 AM

DREAMTROVE

Yes. The original show title was "Kaylee does the Verse"

Seriously, though: Undoubtedly there was editing, due to things deemed inappropriate. The Simon/River incest scene was deleted after all.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 12:09 PM

PLATONIST

Am I the only one who thinks Kaylee would have "done the verse" with a smile on , if the verse would have continued? Oh, and how I love her for it!

And, I'm fairly certain Joss's exact word was "doomed" when describing her and Simon, with a smile on, of course.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 1:40 PM

BYTEMITE

THAT'S what he said? But he says that about EVERY relationship!

(/jk... Sort of)

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 4:24 PM

PLATONIST

Unfortunately, yeah, he did, on the Aussie Q&A found on the Serenity CE DVD.

From my observation, of his pattern, once viewers buy into a relationship and we see the sexual aspect, he ends it, like he's done with it...by this standard Mal and Inara could have lasted a long time, the run of the series:) and that’s probably why they didn’t go flying into each other’s arms at the end of BDM. OK, I’m not buying into it.

Joss is truly twisted.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:31 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Yeah, as I became more and more familiar with Joss's work, I got more and more annoyed at the amount of fanfic that depicted the Simon/Kaylee relationship as perfect and wonderful, with marriage and babies. I'm not saying there wasn't any caring there, clearly there was. But there was a good deal of caring between, say, Xander and Anya. ...Who were not in love when they first had sex, now that I'm thinking about it. But anyway, that fell apart, not when sex entered the equation but when marriage did. Things end a lot with this brand of storytelling. And if a character can't flub it up convincingly, they just get shot or something

I would really love to read a convincingly done story about Simon and Kaylee falling apart, and how that would work out on a spaceship. There's close quarters, you can't go to the next city and pop back by from time to time, you can't run away to find yourself and come back, you can't easily go back to your old life to see if that's where you really belong after all. Basically the emotion and issues that would come up can't be avoided. It would be a whole new realm of conflict. It would, I think, be very interesting to see play out.

...Man, now I'm all lack-of-show-depressed again.

[/sig]

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 9:54 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Yes. The original show title was "Kaylee does the Verse"

Seriously, though: Undoubtedly there was editing, due to things deemed inappropriate. The Simon/River incest scene was deleted after all.

But so was the Inara & River skinnydipping scene. Not for the storytelling angle.

I agree with most of Phoenixrose's post on this subject.
Kaylee was perfectly willing to boink Simon from the get go. She had no likely plans to stay with Bester or illusions it would be a lasting experience, effectively a passing stranger - but engines make her hot. Tracey would have been a diversion she would have taken.
She's not ashamed, she is not a slave to her sexuality, she is free. Many here keep trying to claim that makes her a slut, when in fact it does not, merely their shamed guilt transferance.
She clearly expected that grappling with Simon would be a longer-term affair (hopefully), not strictly just a one-time romp - it held potential, somebody hanging around for awhile. She kept trying, even when he seemed to b eignoring her, or insulting her (who would want to live here?). She did not shy away from the longer term playing, but when it did not materialize, she was willing to take what offerings she could find (even flirting with Wash in HoG). Had she paired with Simon, I think she would not have been available to others - and the sleeping around is what most folks mean by "slutty" - so it does not apply to Kaylee.

Consider that it was Jewel alone who had the least amount of nekkidness in the series.

Kaylee's relationship with Jayne seemed to work an arc - consider his "stop her from being cheerful" and her ignoring him while kissing Mal to their comfy exchange in the cargo bay in BDM, dumping the Reaver carcass. Even his crouching by the infirmary while she was under the knife was furtive, not in-your-face-I'm-watching-out-for-her.

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Wednesday, January 21, 2009 11:51 PM

SHINYGOODGUY

Great thread! This is why is love this site. You guys are right on the money with your comments. I'm gonna add a little, just a little:

I don't think Kaylee's sexuality was toned down at all, it was what is was. What I mean is that it was out there for all to see and she made no apology for it, it was her way. Kaylee, as someone rightly put it, wore her heart firmly on her sleeve. Her compassion for all creatures great and small was what made her special to the crew, and, in particular, to the Captain.

But what Joss presented us with in Kaylee, in relation to the other characters, was a look into the profound complexities of a woman who appeared on the surface to be simple and innocent. Of course this is in juxtaposition to the other women on board. You guys mentioned Inara and how each approaches sex in the series - Inara is a businesswoman, although no less spiritual than is Kaylee when it comes to there take on the 'verse.

Inara uses her mind, body and spirit, not only to survive in the 'verse, but as a way of helping her clients heal. It is her contribution. Both women offer their spirituality as a form of communication.
Kaylee interacts with the 'verse on a much more gut level plane than Inara, who is more ethereal.
Each is a romantic at heart, perhaps why they get along so well, but each uses her spiritual intuition - Kaylee is so much more in tune with Serenity than anyone save River and Inara combines her spirituality with wisdom carefully choosing her responses and actions. Sex for Kaylee is nothing more than a part of life, she loves it as much as she loves Serenity, Inara or her captain. That's what makes her a BDH.

Kaylee sees sex as something as natural as brushing her teeth, taking a bath or even eating. Along comes Simon and it throws her for a loop. With Bester, I imagine, she jumped his bones in a fairly straightforward manner, but with Simon it was something different. Whoever said that Kaylee does not behave like a skank was absolutely right.

We get that she's a "good girl" who happens to like sex and is not ashamed of it, but embraces it as the natural flow of things human. With Simon she wasn't quite sure what he thought of her, especially because he was so preoccupied with "looking after" River. But throughout the series we get reveals into Kaylee's character.

From the pilot up to OoG, we get to know Kaylee is the "cheerful sister" whom everyone loves and protects. She is the "good girl." But in OoG, we learn that, not only is she better than the genius mechanic, but that she's a free spirit who enjoys life. We further get that Kaylee is Earth Mother, a lovely child-like innocent who happens to be trapped in an adult female's body. In the following episodes we get glimpses into Kaylee's attitude towards sex. And now Jayne's comment, and her reaction, in the pilot makes sense.

You know, you learn something new everyday. Joss's story about these 9 people gets more interesting with time (and several viewings).

SGG

Tawabawho?

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Monday, February 9, 2009 8:36 PM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.

Quote:
My point though, is was her sexuality toned down to make her a "Nice Girl".

Haha no, I feel the times when she is overtly sexual come out of the blue, as if the writer is making a point - the opposite of her sexuality being 'toned down' I think.

But I think I'm like you in that this aspect of her character has always struck me as quite artificial.

I would guess Joss already had his "Nice Girl" character but then asked; 'why shouldn't a sweet, innocent female character also be sex-positive?' Which is an interesting question, but one I'm not convinced, with an easy, straightforward answer...

Quote:
Was Joss trying to sneak a sex-positive character into his series? Probably. But was she toned down to make her likable?

I think sex-positive characters can be likable. The question in my mind is whether a sex-positive, overtly sexual character can also be nice, sweet and innocent...

Heads should roll

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Monday, February 9, 2009 10:14 PM

ASARIAN

I say Kaylee's sexuality detracts nothing from her innocence. Ere the opposite: she's in many ways childlike in her perceptions of the world (and her dealings therein). She's isn't burdened by layers of religious guilt, causing self-loathing and shame because of the dreaded 'thorn in the flesh,' as St. Paul once called it. She simply enjoys herself having sex. That's all. She's neither obsessed by it, nor really shy of it. Like a child, partaking of the many fruits life has to offer, she simply sees no harm in having sex, nor seeks to do harm with it. It don't get more innocent than that, really. It's only when a society stigmatizes sex as evil, tells teenage kids that, while in their dorms, the 'Always three feet on the ground rule' applies when having visitors, etc., that sex suddenly makes one 'guilty'.

Don't be shooting me now, but Kaylee's "nothing twixt my nethers...." comment, by the way, while hilarious, has always struck me as bordering on being vulgar. It's my estimation that said line was just a mite off, and not entirely true to Kaylee's origninal Firefly persona. But that may just be me.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:58 AM

RIPWASH

I don't know if I'm way off here, but in the pilot "Serenity", I got the strong sense the Kaylee was perhaps meant to be gay. Or maybe bisexual. Now I'm basing this soley on her initial interaction with Inara and Jayne's comments. Those comments, however, could have just been Jayne trying to tick people off.

"I don't mean to alarm anyone . . . but I think we're being followed."

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:18 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

The only thing I see that might lend credence to that is Kaylee trying to " tone things down " would be to placate Simon. He's a different sort than she's use to , and they've had a discussion as to why he gets all stiff and formal at times, and at other times, he's very laid back and casual. I don't recall any specific time when Kaylee's held anything back.....she's a bit of a free spirit. She had SEX in the engine room of a firefly with a mechanic she ( likely ) had just met !!

Poor girl's been living a chaste life ever since Simon came aboard.

It is not those who use the term "Islamo-Fascism" who are sullying the name of Islam; it is the Islamo-Fascists. - Dennis Prager

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 4:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
The official statement is that Kaylee LOVES Simon, and apparently that had to be the case before the two of them could have sex.

So "With me...? You mean to say... as in... sex?" is the new "I love you" is it?

[/sig]

Harder to have a one night stand if you're both cooped up in a space ship, dear. Kaylee might be a bit randy, but she's smart enough to know that it's better to know and like the person you're bumpin' uglies with if both of y'all are going ot be spending long periods of time between planets.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:36 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

Quote:
The Simon/River incest scene was deleted after all.

Okay, hate to sound dumb, but I gotta know. What exactly *is* the S/R incest scene?

'Cause either my brain isn't working and I can't remember at the moment, or I just truly don't know.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 5:55 AM

PHYRELIGHT

I don't think Kaylee's sexuality was toned down. Rather, it was one of those things that was left unexplored because the show was canceled so soon. Remember that she also spent most of her time in the black with a preacher, a married fella, a doctor that has to relax for 30 seconds to get his play (and that would be more or less a miracle), a captain with intimacy issues, aaaand Jayne.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:02 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by InstantKarmaGirl:
Quote:
The Simon/River incest scene was deleted after all.

Okay, hate to sound dumb, but I gotta know. What exactly *is* the S/R incest scene?

'Cause either my brain isn't working and I can't remember at the moment, or I just truly don't know.

In a deleted scene from 'Our Mrs Reynolds', River gets a bit more.... confused, and asks if Shepard Book could marry her and Simon. She has a pillow tucked up under her shirt, suggesting she's knocked up w/ Simon's child.

Yeah.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 6:11 AM

PHYRELIGHT

Quote:
Originally posted by InstantKarmaGirl:
Okay, hate to sound dumb, but I gotta know. What exactly *is* the S/R incest scene?

'Cause either my brain isn't working and I can't remember at the moment, or I just truly don't know.

The scene only really suggests incest when really nothing happens but River being a little crazy again.

For some reason in OMR, River puts a pillow under her shirt and tells Simon that they must get married because she's in "the family way". Simon gets all confused and embarassed, and the others ignore it because... well, it's River. It does introduce the concept that incest does occur in the verse, but by Simon's words, only on pretty bad planets.

If you want to read the script, you can find it here: http://firefly.girven.org/scripts/firefly-103.htm. The scene is about half way down, starting with,

Quote:
OMITTED

INT. ROOM/PASSENGER DORM - LATER

Book is making up a room for Saffron...

I hope this helps. I can't find this scene on youtube, but it is on the box set DVDs.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 8:43 AM

JONGSSTRAW

Kaylee is usually hot to trot, but she's no tramp. She just wants someone to tell her she's pretty, and if they get along okay, then she would likely do the deed. The Bester incident may have been as a result of her uncontrollable desire to see a spaceship up close, or maybe it had been a good while since her nethers had been utilized in that manner. Her openness about sex seems a bit of a contradiction to her actions, since she withheld her urges for a long time.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:42 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
she's smart enough to know that it's better to know and like the person you're bumpin' uglies with if both of y'all are going ot be spending long periods of time between planets.

I never said she didn't like him, you mook. I said she clearly *did* like him and care for him. But she never said she was in love with him, only that she had 'carried a torch' for him, which means attraction and affection, but not perfect bliss, want to marry him and bear his children wildly devoted anything. She liked him. They get along. She finds him attractive. Would probably like to have a handsome doctor to give her a regular tumble and tell her she's pretty. But none of that means in love. I'm just sayin'.

[/sig]

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 10:15 AM

FREMDFIRMA

Kaylee is kaylee, you can't own her, not in that way, and Simon I think would have come to accept that, begrudingly and not without a bit of snark, but mediated by the obvious possiblity of being roughed up by Zoe if he didn't accept what was.

They'd have had their little fling, gotten it out of their systems and then went on as friends, with her continually perplexing and on occasion embarassing him just as she always does.

The wind needs no excuse, and neither does Kaylee.

S'why we love her, innit ?

-F

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:36 AM

INSTANTKARMAGIRL

Quote:
If you want to read the script, you can find it here: http://firefly.girven.org/scripts/firefly-103.htm. The scene is about half way down, starting with,
Quote:
OMITTED

I hope this helps. I can't find this scene on youtube, but it is on the box set DVDs.

No, I have the DVDs and now remember watching this scene. I do recall thinking that it was right to take the scene out. I'll have to watch it again, however, it makes me worry because River isn't stupid and typically her words have truth to them, they are just encrypted...

Thanks for joggin' my memory.

~**~
"How come you're flying about with us brigands? I mean, shouldn't you be off bringing religiosity to the Fuzzie-Wuzzies or some such?"~Cap'n Mal

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 2:55 PM

PHYRELIGHT

Oh, I never thought River was stupid. She may have been reading something in Saffron's past. Heck, she could have also been predicting a future episode where they go to a planet that practices incest. (Ew.)

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 3:02 PM

BYTEMITE

Or: she was messing with her brother's head. She does have kind of a morbid sense of humour, and likes to embarrass/horrify him.

Although the speech Simon gives her about incest happening only on really bad planets is very similar to the speech Mal gives Saffron about girls being traded away on Triumph to men who kill them if they're displeased.

And River does seem really concerned about being certain that her brother does love her (though in his case and hers, really really not that way. I hope).

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:44 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

Kaylee must be always hot to trot in Firefly.
Engines make her hot.
She spends all her time in the ENGINE room, every hour, every day, all the time.

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 9:47 PM

TUJIAOZUO

Quote:
Originally posted by PhyreLight:
Oh, I never thought River was stupid. She may have been reading something in Saffron's past. Heck, she could have also been predicting a future episode where they go to a planet that practices incest. (Ew.)

An incest episode? That would be all kinds of squicky, though on a deeper level.... no it would just be all kinds of squicky.

While that cut scene is hilarious, I think it's realistic for River, at that level of being mentally unstable, to confuse the love she and Simon have with the intimacy of a couple. Simon's been there for her through thick and thin, and she's pretty much the apple of his eye. I would have liked to have seen an episode that dealt with perhaps River reacting to Simon's infatuation with Kaylee once things got heated up and he wasn't there as he always is with her. Part of me thinks if the show had gone on long enough to delve into that we'd see River possibly a little jealous, and confused as to why Simon doesn't love her that way.

As for Kaylee, I just think she was never truly fleshed out. While I do like like Simon and Kaylee together, in the Verse according to Joss they might have lasted two seasons tops as soon as Simon relaxed for 30 seconds. And because Kaylee is so sexually open I would have liked to have that explored post-Simon. I personally think eventually Mal might have found Kaylee getting friendly with another girl in the engine room, which would have been an amusing arc for a story (something else for River to question and relay to her brother, Simon's reaction to it, with Jayne heading to his bunk, Mal going 'Huh', Inara glad for her and the others reactions). I know that may seem out of left field but in this 'verse orientation seems not to be of real importance, and I think Kaylee would be either curious or already partial to girls along with her guys. She thinks Inara looked glamorous with her female client, she's attracted to pretty, ect.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Tuesday, February 10, 2009 11:40 PM

ASARIAN

Quote:
Originally posted by TuJiaoZuo:

An incest episode? That would be all kinds of squicky, though on a deeper level.... no it would just be all kinds of squicky.

While that cut scene is hilarious, I think it's realistic for River, at that level of being mentally unstable, to confuse the love she and Simon have with the intimacy of a couple. Simon's been there for her through thick and thin, and she's pretty much the apple of his eye. I would have liked to have seen an episode that dealt with perhaps River reacting to Simon's infatuation with Kaylee once things got heated up and he wasn't there as he always is with her. Part of me thinks if the show had gone on long enough to delve into that we'd see River possibly a little jealous, and confused as to why Simon doesn't love her that way.

Yet I think 'the ring of incest' is precisely why we wouldn't have gotten to see River getting jealous, either. :) I think your observation is nonetheless rather astute, as this really would be a realistic, real-life scenario for River.

Joss gives a bit of a lame answer, on the commentary track, as to why they didn't include that "I'm in the family way" scene (sorry, Joss, but you did). Of course, none of that matters, really, because I think Joss was wise to have left it out. Ultimately, I think it would have sent out the wrong message: while we, folks well-versed in the 'Verse, may understand that River, in that scene, is just confusing the love she and Simon have with the intimacy of a couple, I doubt the rest of puritan America would be so forgiving. :)

Apart from ratings, though, and regardless of any other consideration, I still believe it was good not to include that scene. And simply because it makes Firefly, for that reason alone, virtually unique, in that it shows, and cultivates the theme of love, devoid of sex for a change.

--
"Mei-mei, everything I have is right here." -- Simon Tam

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