FIREFLY UNIVERSE

Post BDM: Kaylee and Simon?

POSTED BY: BYTEMITE
UPDATED: Thursday, September 9, 2010 17:12
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 11322
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Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:27 AM

BYTEMITE


We all know Joss, and we all know Joss loves to give his characters a little bit of happiness, then YANK it all away.

So, how do you think he would metaphorically kick the puppies, stomp on the daisies, etc.?


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Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:49 AM

PLATONIST


Good thread, Kaylee and Simon...classic Joss "doomed" relationship. They were brought together too early...end of the second season...not much story potential there and we know Joss doesn't do babies and bunnies:)...maybe a brief attempt to try again toward the end of the series, but it wouldn't have lasted.

One will die or they will agree to stay in the friends zone.

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 6:55 AM

JAKE7


Once the newness wore off, they'd find out they're a terrible match, end up in a bad breakup, and there would be much hostility between them.

They could do all sorts of stuff with that...and no one has to die.

--------------
MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
***********
"They just float out there, sending out raver breeding parties..."

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:04 AM

BYTEMITE


I pretty much came to the same conclusion, one of the two of them is probably going to die.

And it'd be so OBVIOUS if it was Kaylee...

Which is why it would have to be Simon. Because then it builds on the mislead from the pilot episode (unless Joss chose to go for the "funny aneurysm moment," heck, that particular trope is NAMED after something that happened to one of his characters!). http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/FunnyAneurysmMoment

And Kaylee and River both would have a bunch of character development. For River, the whole "the family you make" theme would be extended out to include the other crewmates even more, which is the general trend of the series and movie. And Kaylee, well, things ain't so shiny no more.

It's not like any of the main characters are safe, we have ample evidence for that... Which is why I'm kind of looking for any OTHER way things could possibly go pear-shaped.

Seriously, any at all... Would be much appreciated... <_<

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 7:21 AM

BYTEMITE


I do like the idea of a break-up. But I think there should be something a little more than just that they're a bad match...

I mean, considering that their main problem tended stem from their different socio-economic backgrounds, and the upcoming revelations that'll lock in a different, parallel relationship, I'm wondering just what the implications of Kaylee and Simon being a bad match might be.

Joss never seems to make it that clear-cut, either, from what my impressions are.

It might be River related... River kind of forms a non-incestuous leg of a love triangle. We see constantly the conflict Simon has between his loyalty to River and to the rest of the crew.

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 8:47 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


I've never thought that one of them would die.
Here's the thing. They do this whole dance thing in the series, where they "like each other and get along" well enough for awhile, and then Simon will either get really formal and Kaylee will feel shut out by that, or he'll say something she views as deeply insulting to her. So there's this tension that kind of spans more than one thing.
Would Simon really be able to keep his foot out of his mouth forever? Would Kaylee be more offended or more forgiving once they're sleeping together? Also, Kaylee's kind of a flirt. Would Simon get jealous every time something came along that maybe caught her eye?
My theory is that they would just fight a lot. They'd argue, apologize, be all sweet for awhile, then argue again. Ultimately, I think Kaylee would say in anger that she didn't want to be with Simon, and he'd sulk away and shut down. It's a big ship they live on, but it's still a ship. There's no running away to the next town (Buffy and Angel) or going off to find yourself (Willow and Oz) or going back to your old life, even though it's no longer the place for you (Anya and Xander) or even just being able to avoid each other until you really want to make up (Willow and Tara) or any option other than being faced with it. The crew would have various reactions (I think there would probably be a lot of hostility towards Simon, no matter who it was to 'end it') and it would just be a kind of unusual situation. You're in space, you can't leave, how do you handle this? It could play out several interesting ways. Maybe they make up, maybe they don't. The real story is in how they handle the emotions in a closed space. Now, if they did make up, maybe one of them would die, but maybe it would just play out again with a different theme. Maybe they would make up, try to make it work, get to the point where they were just tired of trying to make it work, and break up again more amicably. It could go several ways that wouldn't involve death, and a lot more of the human emotion craziness Joss loves could be wrung out of it that way.

I have to say, I get tired of all the fic where Simon and Kaylee are just the perfect couple and they almost never argue and they get married and have hundreds of fat children. It's not only unrealistic in terms of the story, it's unrealistic in terms of Joss. Even the Mal/Inara fics tend to allow for the fact that they fight.

Select to view spoiler:


And, with what is now highly suspected about Inara, we already know that she would probably have upped the death toll all by herself. Killing Simon or Kaylee as well would start to seem... needlessly macabre.


A lot of the best fic isn't romance-based, but I would love to see something written post-Serenity that deals with the issues I think Simon and Kaylee would inevitably have. Joss addresses that stuff a lot, without seeming to overwhelm the story with it. And he definitely doesn't overwhelm the stories with babies and bunnies, as was mentioned. Yeah, we got a married couple who were very much in love, but they still argued and there were no babies. And just look how that all ended up. Because it's not enough that the marriage is somewhat realistic, not enough that there's arguments, not enough that Zoe wants a baby, there has to be tragedy.
But I guess that's entertainment for ya

[/sig]

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Thursday, May 14, 2009 10:18 AM

BYTEMITE


I agree on most of your points. More death bad. And holy crap I ought to edit out that little slip up. Sorry everyone!

Anyway, like I was saying about your post, their relationship does have the potential for quirks and hiccups. Those are definitely conflicts that could be explored.

My only problem with it is that technically there's no character or relationship arc with that scenario. Simon and Kaylee, where do they go from here? Their story can't be something that we've already SEEN.

I mean, look at Wash and Zoe. Heart of Gold, we learn they're arguing about having kids. It was something that was revealed, something we didn't know from the pilot episode. But that could have been an arc!

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:17 AM

ALIASSE


Well, you may have gathered that I don't think that Simon is actually really that into Kaylee. He said what he said during the Reaver attack when he thought he was going to die. We see them kissing at the end of the movie, which was nice for Simon/Kaylee shippers but I couldn't help thinking that that was because Mal/Inara shippers got nothing (and I say that without any bitterness at all :(). And by that I mean, there had to be SOME romance at the end of the movie, when it might have been - and dare I say it still might be - the end of Firefly for good.

So I suppose I think Simon would meet someone else. I really agree with PhoenixRose (loved that whole post by the way) about Silee fics that have them being the cutest couple the world's ever seen without any problems. Who's to say that things even went beyond that kiss?

And how upset would Kaylee be if Simon met someone else? I've made this point before and I can see it above in the comment that Kaylee is kind of a flirt, but she was real interested in Tracy for a while there.

Simon dying? That would be terrible. Don't tell cliosmuse anyone.

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Sunday, May 31, 2009 10:57 AM

231


Probably not as worse as River dying, though. Although I've read some fics that kill off the ENTIRE crew.

Still flyin

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Sunday, June 28, 2009 10:44 AM

MESHAKHAD


Two words:

Dark Kaylee

Simon dies at the hands of the Alliance, and Serenity has to stop Kaylee from ramming an Alliance cruiser into Londinium.

But... FOR THE LOVE OF EXPLOSIVES!

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Thursday, July 2, 2009 11:56 PM

TUJIAOZUO


Simon is interested. He's not the smoothest operator and he's mother hen to River, but he is interested. Also I'd like to think that romance in the core and at his family's level of standing is very formal, almost victorian. That said, Kaylee is certainly MUCH more interested, invested, over the moon than he is. Plus, she's very sexually open and from a extremely different upbringing and background, where sex was obviously viewed differently. They're both interested, however the differences are what makes the attempted relationship so difficult.

Now at the end of Serenity, I feel Simon after nearly dying had a 'throw caution to the wind, live life to the fullest' sort of outlook. He had reevaluated everything during the reaver battle and obviously felt with his back against the metaphoric flames there were some things he regretted not doing.

I figure Post-BDM Kaylee and Simon's relationship is fairly hot and heavy, both sort of still in the 'seize the moment' mindset. It could last for awhile, they could be in a bliss like haze for quite some time.

Long term though? not a chance.

Now I love Simon and Kaylee, however after things settle down, Simon's going to say something stupid. REALLY stupid, it's in the poor guy's nature. Kaylee has shown that she has a track record for not forgiving his faux pas and taking it a little too seriously. I can see it happening frequently, with Mal getting out of sorts because all of the quarreling means his mechanic and medic are not focusing on work.

Simon, being the proper core man he is, may want to make Kaylee an honest woman and settle down with her. But is that really what she wants? Kaylee is carefree, and has never talked about settling down and has never been portrayed that way. And even if she did, they come from two vastly different cultures and socioeconomic backgrounds, if they managed to sit down and have a mature, in depth conversation, could they agree on what they wanted for the future?
Where to live? Simon clearly DOES NOT like the concept of space, or spaceship. If the Alliance thought he and River were no longer a problem, he'd happily pack his things and move River either back to the core where he could be a surgeon, or even to a little rim town to practice medicine and live a semi-normal existence. Kaylee would never leave her girl, and if she did and was confined to the ground as a core housewife, she'd be bored to tears. And even if she was a mechanic at a rim town, would she really be happy? She loves Serenity,she loves her crew, she loves going places and exploring and having that carefree adventure element because it's all apart of who she is.
And how to raise their kids? Simon was raised rich, and from what we've been given probably a lot of structure and grooming and emphasis on education. Kaylee possibly didn't have a formal education at all and was raised in a far less structured environment.
These are just two hurdles out of many.

In all honesty, I can see that after things settle down either the relationship ends somewhat bitterly or they both step back, evaluate the situation (with some of asking of advice and perspective from Inara and the others) and end it on friendly terms. Simon would sulk and lament over it for some time, but Kaylee would possibly work her way out of it by finding herself some company every time they make port. Of course this would not be fun for Simon (seeing someone either heading back to the engine room for good times or leaving the engine room), however who's to say he wouldn't gather up his courage and try to prove he's moved on by attempting to court someone else (emphasis on attempt) or bury himself in work?

I can also see them perhaps after months or a year or two falling back onto one another. Sort of one of those after it's over lying there and wondering 'what the f*** just happened with us?" occurrence. Followed by awkwardness, a reigniting of the relationship and an attempt to start over and do it all the right way. I'm not saying that it would be happily ever after from there on out, but they would probably try as they would both be a little older, and hopefully a little wiser.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Friday, July 3, 2009 6:33 AM

BYTEMITE


I agree with your assessment, except on one thing: whether Kaylee would be happy running a mechanics shop.

I don't disagree that she loves Serenity and enjoys the adventure. And we also know that she left her father's mechanics shop because it had fallen on hard times.

But in Better Days, it's made fairly clear that Kaylee dreams of running her own mechanics shop. The part where she dreamed about opening it as a big factory in the core is a concession to her wishes to be with Simon, and a belief that Simon would only be happy in the core.

In any case, if Kaylee's seed money for her mechanics shop hadn't been stolen, I do believe she would have left Serenity, started a mechanics shop somewhere, and would have been happy.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2009 1:36 PM

TUJIAOZUO


I meant to respond to this a looong time ago.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I agree with your assessment, except on one thing: whether Kaylee would be happy running a mechanics shop.

I don't disagree that she loves Serenity and enjoys the adventure. And we also know that she left her father's mechanics shop because it had fallen on hard times.

But in Better Days, it's made fairly clear that Kaylee dreams of running her own mechanics shop. The part where she dreamed about opening it as a big factory in the core is a concession to her wishes to be with Simon, and a belief that Simon would only be happy in the core.

In any case, if Kaylee's seed money for her mechanics shop hadn't been stolen, I do believe she would have left Serenity, started a mechanics shop somewhere, and would have been happy.


You're right however Kaylee's daydream and what would happen is she and Simon settled on some rim planet are a little different.

She left her homeworld because of the job opportunity, but also because of the sheer idea of taking care of such a ship all by herself and getting to see the 'Verse. In that scene Kaylee projects a good deal of 'Little Country Girl Excited About Seeing the Breat Big 'Verse'. Being around that age I know that feeling coming from a small town (like rim planet small town). You may love your folks to death, but if there's an opportunity to take off and see some sites that don't include field rows, you're all for it.

As for her not minding being dirtside, those is Kaylee's ideal conditions for parting with Serenity. Presumably on a nice planet, lots of money, able to relocate her folks to said place, and a huge top of the line mechanics shop.

If she left with Simon, they couldn't settle on a nice, prosperous place like Pershephone, or a decent border world. They'd end up having to keep a low profile on a developing world. And as eager as Kaylee was to leave home, it's been shown that see truly sees the crew as family. Would she leave that family to brave a life hiding out on the rim and potentially ending up living in a similar situation as her parents with little work?

Now I think she would move back to the core with him if he could return because she's just so enamored with the high class lifestyle. However I also think that she would tire of that quickly. Simon would come home to find her in the garage changing the hovercar's oil or something.

Your Indian Pirate Lord,
Ash

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Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:11 PM

BYTEMITE


I didn't say that I thought she'd end up in the Core, only that her dream was to start a mechanic shop in the Core. :)

Going to the Core I think is going to be out of the question. And I honestly believe that Serenity is not going to be a home for the crew forever. It's dangerous. Eventually, they'll all split ways, or they'll all die together. I prefer the former, it's less melodramatic.

She'll settle down somewhere little known without many Cortex connections. And maybe Simon will be there with her, having realized his old life is gone, but he's got a perfectly good new life he can start living. Or maybe not. But Rim world with her own mechanic shop is where I see Kaylee when Serenity is put to rest.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by jake7:
Once the newness wore off, they'd find out they're a terrible match, end up in a bad breakup, and there would be much hostility between them.

They could do all sorts of stuff with that...and no one has to die.




We've seen this dance before, I'm thinkin'.


Cordy and Wes, anyone ?



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:34 PM

JAKE7


I don't know who that is (The only Joss stuff I've watched is Firefly/Serenity and Dr. Horrible. the other stuff doesn't interest me. Blasphemy, I know)

Anyway, I was really being facetious..

--------------
MAL: Everybody's makin' a fuss.
***********
"They just float out there, sending out raver breeding parties..."

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Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:27 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by jake7:
I don't know who that is (The only Joss stuff I've watched is Firefly/Serenity and Dr. Horrible. the other stuff doesn't interest me. Blasphemy, I know)





Cordelia Chase and Wesley Windham Price. Both first appeared on Buffy, and then migrated to appear on Angel. They had a brief go at it with the romance thing, and well.... it didn't take.



The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Thursday, July 16, 2009 11:32 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
Quote:

Originally posted by jake7:
Once the newness wore off, they'd find out they're a terrible match, end up in a bad breakup, and there would be much hostility between them.


We've seen this dance before, I'm thinkin'.


Cordy and Wes, anyone ?


I really don't think that's the same thing at all. They didn't have a bad breakup, they didn't even really have a breakup. They flirted, they kissed, it was terrible, the end. Then they worked together for years and there was never a sign of hostility and only the barest mention of their 'history.' So no, entirely different dance.

[/sig]

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Thursday, July 16, 2009 12:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


You're right, a different dance. But I was thinking of how both Simon and Wes come off as being similar, more like stuffy dandy types, and Cordy and Kaylee came off as being forward and direct. Also, while there initially seemed to be sparks between Cordy and Wes, once they 'hooked up', it was pathetic. Thinking back to Kaylee's , umm...experience ( ie - Bester ) , and Simon's sense of decorum,manners and the like, it just seems to me their different upbringings would be the root of many a squabble. Kaylee would likely say/ do stuff which would make Simon embarrassed, and he'd continue to stumble at trying to explain how he feels...

Plus, every other girl I know is either married, professional, or closely related to me, so you are more or less literally the only girl in the world.

....continuing to make a bad situation only worse.




The T.Rex they call JANE!


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Thursday, July 16, 2009 1:01 PM

BYTEMITE


I can see that. Simon does says "It may surprise you to know, but I'm not particularly good at talking with girls."

Not that he's awkward at first, then becomes a real charmer. Does anyone think he would, really? It's part of the humour of Simon; oh look, the foot-in-mouth disease flared up again! Laugh laugh.

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:03 AM

KRELLEK


I am not sure, I actually think they could make it work, sure Simon might not be that interested in staying on the ship, but I hardly sees a chance for him and River to move back to the core, just because the bounties are gone, they could probably still be on the computer networks(the more non-civilian parts) unless something happens that completely changes the Alliance and the big companies, or a new government rises from the ashes of the old alliance.

and I think River would encourage Simon, and helps Kaylee then SimonĀ“s foot finds its way to his mouth again

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Tuesday, June 15, 2010 7:56 AM

BYTEMITE


Bringing this up again, :) things have definitely changed a little since the new short stories.

Select to view spoiler:


We know from Crystal that at least Kaylee will have a happy ending. It also looks like she's going to have Kaylee-lings at some point.

It reminds me of something Sean once said about the movie, "If there's ever a sequel, I picture it opening with Serenity going down in flames and Kaylee pregnant."



Maybe after the Serenity movie, Joss started going soft and decided he might actually give some of his characters happy endings. I mean two of his characters in Dollhouse against all odds ended up with Babies Ever After. Since when does THAT happen in a Whedon show?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BabiesEverAfter

Maybe he'll have mercy and not kill off another character in Firefly who's currently under the axe. >_>

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Thursday, September 9, 2010 2:54 PM

THEHAPPYTRADER


I think they will make it, if only for the reason everyone thinks Joss will end it. He's always liked to surprise us.

Realistically, I see a rocky road ahead of them and a lot of conflict. The may be adorable, but they ain't perfect. Simon will probably make Kaylee feel inferior and Kaylee will poke at Simon's insecurities, but they've always bounced back eventually.

The first major obstacle would be River. River is the center of Simon's world and that may never change. Of course Kaylee couldn't hate him for that, but she would get awfully frustrated with him. She might even take it out on him, making River angry at her, and placing poor Simon in the middle. But River wants her brother to be happy and Kaylee's heart is big enough for both siblings, so I think they would work it out in the end. River would probably be the reason their relationship works, if only because her presence will keep Simon from leaving the ship. River loves serenity as much as Kaylee and even though she's gotten a little better since miranda, she'll still need looking after.

The class issue would be another amusing conflict, but I don't believe that would break them. I could see Kaylee having trouble learning not to compare her self to the shiney core standards she's infatuated with (which I suspect was her original attraction to the young doctor). I could also see Simon trying to 'educate' Kaylee on how to be a proper lady and having that go very badly. Based off of Kaylee's complaining to Simon about letting people beat him up in Janyestown, I could see Simon having issues proving he isn't weak and is worthy of Kaylee's affection, even if he's really only needing to convince himself. I mean, the poor guys is constantly getting punched or kidnapped or something. That can't be good for his self esteem.

I think Kaylee is month's ahead of Simon in there relationship mentally and emotionally (if they started one after the BDM) but I still think Simon cares for her. Early's threats wouldn't have kept Simon in line if he didn't care for Kaylee almost as much as his sister. At that time Simon's loyalties were (probably still are) to his sister, not the crew. I can see amusing conflict with Kaylee hearing wedding bells and Simon feeling overwhelmed by her in their new relationship.

hmmm.... the post is already longer than I intended.

Anyway, to sum it up, their relationship should last and it should include plenty for fights and conflict, possibly more so than with Mal and Inara. I think they will make it and wind up sharing a bunk with Simon having to spend the night on the common room couch at least a couple times a month. I can also see their sexcapades leading to a pregnancy and a shotgun wedding, providing more drama as they are forced into escalating their relationship before either is prepared. But I think they will make it in the end. 'Course, I also want them to make it, so that might cloud my judgment.

Simon and Kaylee were meant to be together gorramit, it just weren't meant to be easy!



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Thursday, September 9, 2010 5:12 PM

BYTEMITE


I like when the couples fight too. :)

*pelted with popcorn*

I also like all the established couples best. Joss might've thrown us a few curveballs later on, every pairing you can imagine has it's troubles but each of the established pairings complement each other well in many ways. Also: chemistry. So I like them best. Maybe I'm just unoriginal. :)

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