DOLLHOUSE

Getting Closer

POSTED BY: ECGORDON
UPDATED: Monday, January 18, 2010 14:47
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 3110
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Friday, January 8, 2010 5:06 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Damn. Tim Minear has a well deserved nickname as the Tim Reaper. That totally surprised me, and that doesn't happen too often.



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Friday, January 8, 2010 5:14 PM

SCHISM


HO-LEE-FUCK!!!!

Excuse the language.

I don't swear often.

But twice tonight I was left with no vocabulary left excpet to exclaim "F*CK!!

Oh, did anyone get the "kill you with her brain" reference? My wife wondered why I burst out laughing. :p

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Friday, January 8, 2010 5:18 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


I also yelled the F word at least twice too.

I'll be rewatching it soon. I didn't catch the "kill you with her brain" line but I did catch Summer echoing a line River had in "Objects in Space."

"I can do this."



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Friday, January 8, 2010 5:23 PM

CYBERSNARK


SON OF A BITCH!!
[/RvB]

I feel so bad for Topher.

And for Saunders, given what must have happened afterwards (they were locked down, she could not have escaped, and Dewitt would not have let an armed enemy wander around loose --expect Saunders' body to be found with a self-inflicted gunshot wound to the head).

And Boyd. . . I'm honestly clueless as to what game he's playing. Why would Rossum want this to have played out?

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, January 8, 2010 6:35 PM

RAHLMACLAREN

"Damn yokels, can't even tell a transport ship ain't got no guns on it." - Jayne Cobb


What the f**kity f*** F***???

Not Bennett, gorraamnit!!!

And Boyd? What! But...but there were so many scenes where he was alone, how could he be bad?

*breather* I'll be alright.

Things I know:
They can't kill off Saunders yet, since she was (will be) in Epitaph One. (I'm really sympathizing with Zone, now. ("Let's blow this bitch back to the Bush years.") They'll just wipe her, but first she has to stitch up Caroline's knee during the apocalypse? Um, yeah, I'm thinkin' I passed confused a couple exits back.


And why couldn't they get the old old Dr. Saunders (Joe Howard from Square One TV) in the flashback?



--------------------------------------------------
Find here the Serenity you seek. -Tara Maclay

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Friday, January 8, 2010 7:59 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Damn that Tim Minear. Damn him to Hell!

Blatant shoutout to FF. Apologetic...

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Friday, January 8, 2010 8:01 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by RahlMaclaren:

And Boyd? What! But...but there were so many scenes where he was alone, how could he be bad?



Multiple personalities with multiple bodies?

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Friday, January 8, 2010 8:24 PM

ROCKETJOCK


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
HO-LEE-FUCK!!!!

Excuse the language.

I don't swear often.

But twice tonight I was left with no vocabulary left excpet to exclaim "F*CK!!

Oh, did anyone get the "kill you with her brain" reference? My wife wondered why I burst out laughing. :p



After the episode was over, I told my wife that from now on when we watch Joss Whedon shows, we need to get a brain condom -- because if he's going to MINDF*CK us, I want it to be safe sex.

I caught the "Kill you with her brain", gag, but did anyone else catch the "Dr. Horrible" reference?

Select to view spoiler:


"Cutting off the snake's head."



Just two episodes left to seal this whole story up? Jesus, Mary and Joseph! Talk about Campbell's condensed cream of epic soup . . .

"You can't fight a ghost." -- Echo

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Friday, January 8, 2010 9:17 PM

GWEK


Great episode. In fact, another great Season Two episode.

Ah, if only the show had been this good from the start. More than just the Whedon diehards might have stuck with it.

Some great twists and turns in this one. As for feeling sorry for Topher (a sentiment at least one or two folk have expressed): let's not forget that he's basically a sociopath.

The final scene: great twist. I'm really curious to see how it plays out in the 88 minutes we've got left.

Almost makes me wonder if, when we got to the final episodes if FIREFLY, we would have found out that River--because of the secrets in her head--was the only person who knew the identity of all of those behind Blue Sun... and if maybe the Uber-Big Bad pulling all the strings was Shepherd Book!


www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 3:58 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Yep. Im metaphorically still in the ditch a couple of miles back down the road. Almost wonder if this isn't still Echo in the Attic having nightmares.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 5:14 AM

SCHISM


I have a few random theories.
It's kinda pointless to say now, but, uh...SPOILERS!


Okay, so the second half or Rossum is supposedly Boyd.
However when did he become revealed as Rossum?
Just as Echo was 'recieving' Caroline and all her memories, but also just as Boyd came back to save her butt and was literally leaning right over her.
And what did evil-Boyd say to Caroline?
C-"Am I supposed to trust you?"
B-"With your life."
Doesn't that echo Echo's rapport with Good Boyd?

So my thoughts;

1) Reality and memory got merged in the confusion.

2) Alpha (or Whisky?) messed with the wedge, tweaking memories.

If it turns out Boyd was Rossum all along then that's cool, I'll go along for the ride, but based on what we know now, it doesn't seem at all feesible.

Sure he has been hanging out with Whiskey, who is apparently evil, but he seemed genuinely afraid when packing and preparing to run and hide from the retribution of (his own men?) Rossum's thugs after shooting those men in DeWitt's office.

That being said, if Boyd ISNT Rossum, who is?

Someone we know?
SOmeone we don't?

My guess?
If it isn't really Boyd, that is....

Graham Tanaka.

Yup.
aka Mark Sheppard
aka Badger


However, to fit in with Epitah One, they need a good reason to keep Whiskey alive AND they need one more bit of intervention from Alpha.

Oh, and this really IS spoilerific......


Wiki mentions that Summer's character is in the next episode. Hopefully only in flashbacks. THe only thing I hate more than the death of a good character is when they trivialize it by bringing them back to life.

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 5:22 AM

SCHISM


Okay, I just went to the bathroom and thought about this some more.

In The Attic we discovered the Japanese guy who was working out of Tokyo before he got shelved. They have Japanese offices.

Graham Tanaka is a caucasian with a Japanese name.

That means either;

a) his mamma married a Japanese man
or
b) he WAS Japanese before he had his imprint put in a new body


........just ignore the floating stories where Tanaka was meant to be asian but Joss wanted to give the part to Mark, and left the name as Tanaka as a bit of a joke......

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 6:53 AM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Maybe the final epp will conclude with Armageddon? Like the last epp of Angel. And they all died happily ever after.




"People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy."
-jossy

Becket: "If you want a happy ending you're in the wrong place."
Castle: "Guess I'll have to try that massage parlor down on _________ ."

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 7:45 AM

SCHISM


really?

is that how Angel ended?
;p

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 8:50 AM

EVILDINOSAUR


My brain is jelly right now, that episodes was just.....no words...

And I'm still recovering from the emotional roller coaster of David Tennant's last Dr. Who episode...I'm not sure my brain is gonna make it...

"Haha, mine is an evil laugh."

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 10:03 AM

CLJOHNSTON108


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
HO-LEE-FUCK!!!!

Excuse the language.

I don't swear often.

But twice tonight I was left with no vocabulary left excpet to exclaim "F*CK!!

Oh, did anyone get the "kill you with her brain" reference? My wife wondered why I burst out laughing. :p


Yeah, I came here to post about the "kill me with her brain" line as soon as I heard it, but then I saw ECG's first post and figured I didn't want any spoilers, so I waited until after I watched the whole thing.

"HO-LEE F*CK!!!!" is right!

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 11:44 AM

TRAVELER


Is everybody a doll. I mean they all seem to be going in different directions at once. And I can understand the "F" word being used alot. Talk about taking one in the brainpan.


http://www.imdb.com/mymovies/list?l=28764731
Traveler

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:07 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Select to view spoiler:


"Bullet in the head. Squish..."
-River Tam, Serenity



Foreshadowing, or premeditation?

Closer


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Saturday, January 9, 2010 12:12 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
really?

is that how Angel ended?



They called it THE Apocalypse.

Right after Gunn put a hatchet in Senator (Hillary Clinton's) brain. Angel was not renewed for a 6th season...
http://www.twiztv.com/scripts/angel/season5/angel-522.htm

I suspect that's why FF was banned by Fox before its first epp. Rupert Murdoch was dining weekly with Hillary prepping her for her presidential campaign to move back into the White House.

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 1:21 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Schism:
really?

is that how Angel ended?
;p




Angel, to me, had one of the best series-enders EVER. A huge number of huge things happened, and it STILL didn't completely wrap everything up all nice and neat, but left things a little bit open-ended in a couple of areas, so you could kind of decide for yourself what happened next.

And now I'm wishing I'd been watching Dollhouse lately. ;)

Mike

Work is the curse of the Drinking Class.
- Oscar Wilde

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Saturday, January 9, 2010 1:39 PM

NCBROWNCOAT


I haven't been watching lately. I guess I'll have to catch up...or hope the DVDs come out soon.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/








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Monday, January 11, 2010 5:56 AM

ZEEK


That was one crazy episode. I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea that Boyd could be the head of Rossum. That is really confusing to me. We'll have to see how this plays out.

Oh how I wish the show was this good from the start. Engagement of the week was never necessary for this show.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:04 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Some great twists and turns in this one. As for feeling sorry for Topher (a sentiment at least one or two folk have expressed): let's not forget that he's basically a sociopath.


No, actually, he's not. That was DeWitt's assessment, and she was mad at him. The hints in his character arc suggest very strongly that though he has a morbid unlikeable sense of humour, the whole time he thought he was helping people. First, by fixing whatever problems the people thought they had in their base personalities, then helping the clients of the Dollhouse with the imprints while the bodies waited for their new and improved selves. And all of this he whitewashed over with how shiny and fun the technology was. Topher's problem is both that he's too clever and not wise enough, and couldn't see the eventual ramifications of the technology he used/created.

Still reading, more to come, but this jumped out at me. Because I'd called the whole Topher Dr. Saunders thing from the pilot episode, and because after he made Sierra a friend, when he found out that Sierra's base personality had no problems, it was some scumbag just setting her up to be used, he wanted to help her. And look how that ended up for him. If he was a sociopath, then he was unusually disturbed by what Boyd had him do. A sociopath would only have not cared about getting caught.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:13 AM

BYTEMITE


I also don't understand where all this "Boyd is the head of Rossum" stuff is coming from. There were two guys in that room. The first guy seemed like the Big Bad to me, and Boyd seemed like his Dragon.

I mean, doesn't the head of Rossum have anything better to do than chase after failed corporate terrorists that he would have no inclination to think would be able to resist the mind-wiping process?

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:31 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
No, actually, he's not. That was DeWitt's assessment, and she was mad at him.



Actually, he IS a sociopath, or at least something very close to it. I'm not basing my assertion on DeWitt's assessment (although, annoyed or not, her statement was accurate and supports the depiction of character, especially in Season One.

Quote:

The hints in his character arc suggest very strongly that though he has a morbid unlikeable sense of humour, the whole time he thought he was helping people.


Other than a few throwaway comments in recent episodes (likely to soften the character and make him more sympathetic), there's nothing to indicate that Topher cares at all about others. He's an extremely intelligent narcicist with no moral center.

He and DeWitt--indeed, virtually anyone working for the Dollhouse, with the possible exception of Ballard--are bad people. End of story.

That's part of what makes the first season so weak. The characters who aren't dolls aren't well-developed.

In the second season, possibly at the behest of the network, possibly to push the "vs Rossum" angle, these bad people have been softened to make them more sympathetic, but that doesn't change who they really are.



www.stillflying.net: "Here's how it might have been..."

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:31 AM

GWEK


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
I also don't understand where all this "Boyd is the head of Rossum" stuff is coming from. There were two guys in that room. The first guy seemed like the Big Bad to me, and Boyd seemed like his Dragon.



Have you seen all the episodes of the show?

In previous episodes, they established that there are two partners behind Rossum Corporation. Partner #1 turned on Parter #2, making a version of Partner #2 that had all his intellect and knowledge but none of his ambition.

To "win", our heroes need to take down both Partners, but the implication is that Partner #1 is the real problem.

In "The Attic" the original version of Partner #1 is called Clyde (and is trapped in the Attic). The non-Boyd guy introduces himself as (I think) "Clyde the Fifth". Could be that they're pulling a switch-ero, but if we we take it straight-up as depicted, "Clyde the Fifth" would be the ambition-less version of Partner #2... which means that Boyd = Partner #1.

Remember, the whole point of going into Caroline's history is that she is the only person who has seen both partners. Presumably, the scene ending the episode is the moment at which she saw them both.

Quote:

I mean, doesn't the head of Rossum have anything better to do than chase after failed corporate terrorists that he would have no inclination to think would be able to resist the mind-wiping process?



You would think so, wouldn't you? But based on the brief scenes for next week, it appears that Boyd (presumably not his real name) is playing a much larger game, and that Caroline, DeWitt, and Saunders may all just be pieces on his board.

Does seem a bit odd that he would be playing the role of a security chief for quite some time, but, as with so many Whedon characters, there have always been parts of his background that don't add up.

Guess we'll see where the truth lies in the next two weeks.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:44 AM

BYTEMITE


You're missing the concept of a character arc. Topher isn't a sociopath because that's boring. That would be a stagnant character, oh he's evil so just kill him. The foundations of the current revelations about his character were established in the first season, but most people disliked the character so intensely that they didn't look closer. Hell, *I* disliked him, but it didn't stop me from seeing. The Dr. Saunders scene at the beginning of season 2 was the a ha moment. You'll notice he didn't take advantage of her, and explained why he made her hate him. If Dr. Saunders had been right about why he programmed her the way he did, THEN he would have been a sociopath.

Also, did you forget the episode where he showed a brain scan of an actual sociopath, and compared it to his own?

He's really more like a grating "Dude not funny" Operative. Thinks he's doing good, thinks he's making a better world. He's not, and he's slowly come to realize that. No, he's not good, all of the people running the Dollhouse (even Ballard) are actually evil alignment, but all of them are getting better. Except Boyd, who's getting worse. More on that later.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:48 AM

BYTEMITE


Yes, I've seen the episode the Attic, but I think everyone has got the wrong Big Bad. You were all so surprised by Boyd's appearance compared to the throwaway guy that you assumed he's the Big Bad.

Now grant you, he's very likely to be the behind-the-scenes guy, possibly the handler of Clyde the 5th. Which makes him at least the Dragon to the OTHER head of Rossum, who put Clyde the first into storage and made super-ambitious Clyde the second. But it DOESN'T necessarily make Boyd the Big Bad.

Does Boyd's skill set strike you as that of a gifted (and breathtakingly unethical) neuroscientist who would have been Clyde's peer? Or does his skill set strike you as a hired thug/assassin?

So totally the Dragon.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:52 AM

ZEEK


Boyd always seemed like a good person. Even in season 1 he seemed much more caring than DeWitt or Dominic. Topher just doesn't think about the grey area of what he does. He sees people sign up for the program and takes that as their consent. If they were all really consenting then I could see that as a decent rationalization. However, it seems like that's not the case and Topher knows it. Then again if they deceived him with that notion early on and only revealed their true nature at a later time then he might be stuck. DeWitt mentioned the Dollhouse retirement plan is not very friendly.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 11:57 AM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

Then again if they deceived him with that notion early on and only revealed their true nature at a later time then he might be stuck. DeWitt mentioned the Dollhouse retirement plan is not very friendly.


This is pretty much covered in the Sierra arc. See Topher's reaction.

He's not good, I've never said that. He's gotten himself involved in bad things and is using the justification that he's helping people to make himself feel better about how he enjoys his job and the technology just a LITTLE too much.

But he's not a sociopath. He's just yet another sad human being deluding himself into thinking he's doing good. Every single person running the House, including Ballard, falls under this description.

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Monday, January 11, 2010 6:20 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Quote:

Originally posted by RocketJock:
from now on when we watch Joss Whedon shows, we need to get a brain condom -- because if he's going to MINDF*CK us


Yah. That.

[/sig]

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Sunday, January 17, 2010 3:30 PM

BYTEMITE


So I was wrong, and he is the Big Bad (at least until Alpha gets his hands on the remote wipe anyone tech). I wonder if he made improvements though, or if there's another him somewhere, because it still seems odd to me that he has all these badass infiltration and fighting abilities. Or that he would personally watch over Echoes progress. Seems more likely he'd have a double managing that.

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Monday, January 18, 2010 9:44 AM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Okay, this is really starting to bug me. Boyd being the Big Bad does not track at all. Nothing here tracks. What we knew about the Attic in season one changed drastically. What we knew about Boyd changed even more. WTF?

[/sig]

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Monday, January 18, 2010 12:33 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.


Quote:

Originally posted by PhoenixRose:
What we knew about the Attic in season one changed drastically.


Exactly what did we know about the Attic before? I don't recall any information about it, just a couple of vague mentions.



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Monday, January 18, 2010 2:47 PM

PHOENIXROSE

You think you know--what's to come, what you are. You haven't even begun.


Then you should watch the first season again. Topher says, when Ivy is being threatened with the attic, that it's a 'mental sock.' The sensation one feels when trying to recall a name or word, when it's just on the tip of your tongue, is the attic, only 'with everything.' He says it shuts down all thought. You can never quite think, though there seems to be some implication of awareness. In the second season, he knew/said that it was a nightmare-fueled adrenalin state, though not what it was for. I'd say that's a bit of a shift.

What we were told about Caroline's backstory and how she ended up in the dollhouse also changed just a smidge...

[/sig]

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