Lonely Mal by beatupplenty

Quote:
Originally posted by beatupplenty:
The captain always gets the girls. But I don't recall Mal actually ever getting any. Did he? Did I forget something already?
Beatupplenty

Did Mal ever look for the girls? You can't "get" what you're not looking for.

I never thought Mal was lonely. Alone? yes. Lonely, no. There's a big difference. Nor have I ever thought he was so angry, moody, or hard to live with as the thread on 'could Mal be your captain' (or whatever the title was) seemed to suggest.

In fact, I like him quite a lot. He's loyal, he's funny, he's got a decent moral compass. He takes the right things seriously and can shrug off the rest. He's a man of action, not empty words. He's smart, he's witty. And he's sexy as hell. What's not to like?

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:23 AM

Epic dominance issues, insults, and a tendency to punch first.

You really don't think he's angry? That's an unusual perspective...

I for one do consider Mal kind of lonely. He doesn't seem able to let anyone get close. Used to be he let Zoe in, but she got married, and he's reacted to her giving him less attention by withdrawing somewhat. He doesn't seem to listen to her anymore, and Zoe never seems to ask him anything that isn't about business.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:27 AM

mal is not lonely. he does not need girls. he has the smoldering, hunky nihilism, a spaceship, and a gun. what more does he need? certainly not a certain skank, who is most likely dosed with the space clap.

nope, not lonely at all.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:36 AM

XD "Space clap."

I'm going to have to use that now.

Quote:
he has the smoldering, hunky nihilism, a spaceship, and a gun. what more does he need?

A pony, and a toy rocketship just for redundancy.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Epic dominance issues, insults, and a tendency to punch first.

Does someone have dominance issues if they are the captain? It's his ship. He's the leader. He's leading.

Insults? I'm going to have to find the time to watch everything again. I rarely see Mal insulting someone. He does insult Inara once or twice. He tells Zoe he doesn't think she should get married but that's not an insult. Maybe an inappropriate speaking of his mind but not an insult.

I don't think he has a tendency to punch first. There were MANY times when Mal held back from confrontation.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
You really don't think he's angry? That's an unusual perspective...

Angry with gov't, disillusioned? Absolutely. An angry person? No. That's a big difference. Angry people are miserable and repel everyone. Mal doesn't repel people. In fact, he inspires incredible loyalty.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I for one do consider Mal kind of lonely. He doesn't seem able to let anyone get close. Used to be he let Zoe in, but she got married, and he's reacted to her giving him less attention by withdrawing somewhat. He doesn't seem to listen to her anymore, and Zoe never seems to ask him anything that isn't about business.

Being a leader is a lonely job, I'll give you that. Mal has to be a little set-apart just to be the captain. But I don't see him being closed off to everyone. He's not a needy man by any means...which a lot of people interpret as closed-off, but I see it as being a leader.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 10:04 AM

I think I agree with you mostly, but there's a few points of contention here.

As I said, I do think Mal is angry, and quite bitter, and not just about the war, though that has a large part of it (in the form of possible PTSD and PTSD-related depression).

That's not to say he doesn't manage his anger well, his ability to suppress his frustration in a bad situation is remarkable, heroic even. But you can't look at the undertones of his reactions and tell me he doesn't get frustrated easily.

And not just bad situations, but strange, silly situations, and sometimes even within the course of a normal conversation. If someone is talking to him or pushing him on a point, he quickly gets tired of it. And if someone tries to pry into the things he keeps closed off (which he does do, no arguments here), he gets very defensive.

I think Mal attracts people despite his anger. And it doesn't always work, Mal has plenty of enemies and plenty of people who his apparent charms fail to move.

I'm also not entirely sure he isn't needy... Certainly, he doesn't EXPRESS anything like that, but I think we have a ship (represents need: home) with eight other people who all represent something Mal NEEDS. It's all bound up in emotions and relationships, but I don't think any of us can't argue that Mal doesn't need his crew at this point in his life. He's lost in the woods and drifting, and I think he's still very much hurting after his losses.

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:05 AM

STORYMARK

Wash aside, I don't recall any of the guys on Serenity gettin' all that much.

"I thoroughly disapprove of duels. If a man should challenge me, I would take him kindly and forgivingly by the hand and lead him to a quiet place and kill him."

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 11:53 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
As I said, I do think Mal is angry, and quite bitter, and not just about the war, though that has a large part of it (in the form of possible PTSD and PTSD-related depression).

What, other than the war, do you think he's bitter about?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

That's not to say he doesn't manage his anger well, his ability to suppress his frustration in a bad situation is remarkable, heroic even. But you can't look at the undertones of his reactions and tell me he doesn't get frustrated easily.

And not just bad situations, but strange, silly situations, and sometimes even within the course of a normal conversation. If someone is talking to him or pushing him on a point, he quickly gets tired of it. And if someone tries to pry into the things he keeps closed off (which he does do, no arguments here), he gets very defensive.

Sure, but IMO, what's important is how you control/express your anger, not whether you have it or not. If he was ridiculous and flew off the handle, then something is wrong. But I just don't see that.

And I see nothing wrong with being a private person. Just because someone isn't a spill your guts type, doesn't mean they are closed off. Zoe knows Mal. KNOWS him. And she understands his boundaries, respects them and works within them. It's when people don't respect the boundaries that Mal pushes back.

BTW, the say one predictor of relationship longevity is a similar level of self disclosure. The "sharers" do best with other "sharers" and the same for the "non-sharers." Mal is a non-sharer (as am I...so maybe I relate? ;)) Please note, there is no judgment in "sharer" vs. "non-sharer" as there is with "closed-off".

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think Mal attracts people despite his anger. And it doesn't always work, Mal has plenty of enemies and plenty of people who his apparent charms fail to move.

Having enemies isn't a sign of an angry person...just a controversial one, one that doesn't feel the need to please others. That's a good thing, IMO. I have plenty of people who don't like me. That's (usually) their problem, not mine. I try to be respectful and a decent human being, but I don't feel the need to have people like me. The ones who will, do. The others, won't. Now if I'm doing something awful, that's another thing. I don't think Mal is ever an awful person. Sure he is occasionally insensitive, and sometimes lashes out, but who amoung us doesn't?

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm also not entirely sure he isn't needy... Certainly, he doesn't EXPRESS anything like that, but I think we have a ship (represents need: home) with eight other people who all represent something Mal NEEDS. It's all bound up in emotions and relationships, but I don't think any of us can't argue that Mal doesn't need his crew at this point in his life. He's lost in the woods and drifting, and I think he's still very much hurting after his losses.

Oh yeah...Mal needs his crew a.k.a. his family. But when I say "needy" I mean constant reassurance, constant approval, group consensus. Mal is secure in who he is, what he believes, and doesn't need to define himself by another person or their approval.

Interesting conversation. It's so easy for me to get caught up in my own interpretations of stories, character, etc and assume others feel the same way when that just isn't the case. I do like to hear other ideas, even if it makes me scratch my head. :D

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Wednesday, March 17, 2010 12:45 PM

Quote:
What, other than the war, do you think he's bitter about?

Well, the entirety of his beloved biological family is dead and his homeworld Shadow was completely destroyed. Oh, and he's very angry at God. It's all technically related to the war, but I think it's also separate issues that all hit him very strongly.

He's not just angry at the Alliance. There is a shit ton that he's angry about. He is bitter over everything he's lost (with occasional cross over into wistfulness if the mood hits him in regards to family), not just the war. He's not angry at his fellow browncoats, but he's pretty angry at Independent High Command for surrendering, enough that I think he'd balk at joining up with the Independents Try #2 if they offered him the chance. He's angry about what's happened to his life.

And he's angry at himself, a little, for getting himself invested in something that failed, for failing people he cared about (which, as we see in a few episodes, is a BIG deal to Mal, and arguably the one thing that hurts him the most). His becoming criminal is both a rebellion against the Alliance and the God who betrayed him and also a self-punishment that reinforces his opinion of himself as a bad man and a failure. Similarly, the name of his ship is equal parts rebellion and self-laceration, with a little bit of grim "funereal feel" to it.

Quote:
Sure, but IMO, what's important is how you control/express your anger, not whether you have it or not. If he was ridiculous and flew off the handle, then something is wrong. But I just don't see that.

As much restraint as Mal has, sometimes he DOES fly off the handle. Punching Simon, putting Jayne in the airlock, bullying Wash in Out of Gas (even though he kind of regretted it at the time), the way he went after Rance for shooting Nandi... People back away from Mal when he starts throwing his weight around (remember Jayne's response in Out of Gas?). He can be scary. Generally what Mal does is warranted, and lot of his anger and bitterness is understandable/forgivable/sympathetic just because of what he's been through. Plus he IS a decent guy underneath. But he's still scary, and he's still dangerous, and he definitely has a temper.

He has good days and bad days I'd say. Good days he's charming and funny and relaxes and probably fun to be around. But if he's in a mood about something, which generally amounts to either job worries, tense situations, bad memories, or Inara giving him the cold shoulder, then he wouldn't be easy to live with.

Simon decides to leave in the movie partially because Mal's been in an extended snit (judging by the comic book Those Left Behind, and extending those events into the movie, when Kaylee complains that his bad mood is running everyone off). His bringing River along on the Lilac job was most likely him being disagreeable and trying to piss Simon off than him actually NEEDING to bring River or wanting to give her job experience. Turns out they did need her, because for some reason Wash wasn't watching the Cortex for Reaver warnings, still, there's no way Mal could have anticipated that.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 5:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
What, other than the war, do you think he's bitter about?

Well, the entirety of his beloved biological family is dead and his homeworld Shadow was completely destroyed. Oh, and he's very angry at God. It's all technically related to the war, but I think it's also separate issues that all hit him very strongly.

He's not just angry at the Alliance. There is a shit ton that he's angry about. He is bitter over everything he's lost (with occasional cross over into wistfulness if the mood hits him in regards to family), not just the war. He's not angry at his fellow browncoats, but he's pretty angry at Independent High Command for surrendering, enough that I think he'd balk at joining up with the Independents Try #2 if they offered him the chance. He's angry about what's happened to his life.

And he's angry at himself, a little, for getting himself invested in something that failed, for failing people he cared about (which, as we see in a few episodes, is a BIG deal to Mal, and arguably the one thing that hurts him the most). His becoming criminal is both a rebellion against the Alliance and the God who betrayed him and also a self-punishment that reinforces his opinion of himself as a bad man and a failure. Similarly, the name of his ship is equal parts rebellion and self-laceration, with a little bit of grim "funereal feel" to it.

Kind of all about the war, IMO. Yes it's a huge mish-mash of stuff, but it's pretty much the war and its effects on his life that he's angry about. A truly angry person finds little to no joy about anything. They are miserable 24/7 and repulsive. Mal has anger...but he's not an angry person.

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
Sure, but IMO, what's important is how you control/express your anger, not whether you have it or not. If he was ridiculous and flew off the handle, then something is wrong. But I just don't see that.

As much restraint as Mal has, sometimes he DOES fly off the handle. Punching Simon, putting Jayne in the airlock, bullying Wash in Out of Gas (even though he kind of regretted it at the time), the way he went after Rance for shooting Nandi... People back away from Mal when he starts throwing his weight around (remember Jayne's response in Out of Gas?). He can be scary. Generally what Mal does is warranted, and lot of his anger and bitterness is understandable/forgivable/sympathetic just because of what he's been through. Plus he IS a decent guy underneath. But he's still scary, and he's still dangerous, and he definitely has a temper.

He has good days and bad days I'd say. Good days he's charming and funny and relaxes and probably fun to be around. But if he's in a mood about something, which generally amounts to either job worries, tense situations, bad memories, or Inara giving him the cold shoulder, then he wouldn't be easy to live with.

On the instances you mentioned: Jayne and Wash was Mal being Captain. Doing what needed to be done to keep his ship and crew safe. It wasn't sunshine and roses, but it had to be done.

Being firm, commanding, even menacing doesn't bother me if it's for the right reasons. Mal is rarely any of those things without just cause.

Few people are truly "easy" to live with. I had a roomie for a while that was easy to live with...but it was still hard because I had to work at not taking advantage of her. She is the quintessential doormat. I could do anything and she'd take it. I could ask anything and she'd do it. It took a lot of effort, and was honestly exhausting at times, to try to guess where her boundaries were so I could be respectful of them. I like to think that after three years of living with me she cowboyed up a bit and wasn't so accomodating, but I'm not sure. :D

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Simon decides to leave in the movie partially because Mal's been in an extended snit (judging by the comic book Those Left Behind, and extending those events into the movie, when Kaylee complains that his bad mood is running everyone off). His bringing River along on the Lilac job was most likely him being disagreeable and trying to piss Simon off than him actually NEEDING to bring River or wanting to give her job experience. Turns out they did need her, because for some reason Wash wasn't watching the Cortex for Reaver warnings, still, there's no way Mal could have anticipated that.

Hrmmm. I suppose extended snit is one way to look at it. But Simon didn't care about the snit until Mal decide to exercise his captaincy over River. It wasn't until River got put into danger that Simon cared much at all. Even then, we know that Simon is second guessing, trying to figure out which danger is worse, the two of them on their own, or Mal using River. Simon only leaves because of River's affirmation of "I fear it isn't safe"...but we all know that she wasn't talking about Mal.

I guess it boils down to this: I do think Mal is a complex man who has some anger but that doesn't make him lonely or a terribly difficult character to deal with.

FWIW, out of all of the characters, I think I would least like living with Simon or Kaylee. I find Simon boring and I would want to bring Kaylee down off of her sunshine cloud and would probably get petty about it. That probably gives you some insight into my posts. ;)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:10 AM

How much joy does Mal have? It's like snippits here and there in a generally miserable universe. They're stuck between a crapsack world of primitive technology and extreme poverty and a crap sack world governed by an authoritarian police state and a crap sack world where all the other criminals are backstabbing untrustworthy scavengers. It's a post apocalyptic setting (Earth becoming uninhabitable counts, right?) meets a futuristic dystopia. We only see a few of his friends still alive, and it's very likely, considering they're all in dangerous occupations, that most of them will die.

The only times in the show where I actually see Mal somewhere approaching happy is when the crew is in good spirits eating dinner together (or drinking wine in the cargo bay with Inara) and the rare occasion something went RIGHT. Sometimes he's happy even if he was stabbed/shot/clothes got stolen, because it's so rare for ANYTHING to go right for him! And in the next minute, the engine could be blowing up.

I find that really, really sad. Hell, I'll be the first to wish that the universe would throw the poor dog a bone. But it is what it is.

Believe me, I think the anger he has is entirely justified, but that doesn't mean his anger isn't a problem for himself and the people around him.

And as for lonely, is there anyone on Serenity who he really talks about his problems with? Wash tries like once or twice, but is rebuffed. Zoe doesn't, she's a soldier, he's her commander, she expects him to buck up. They understand each other intuitively when it comes to combat, but personal matters? Not so much. Mal was completely taken by surprise by Zoe's marriage. Zoe often questions Mal when she thinks he's being reckless (like the Train Job) or unnecessarily hard (the kid attacked by Reavers in the movie), but Mal doesn't listen to her and she never asks him WHY. Kaylee? The most she might do is kiss his check and drop hints about Inara until he gets irritated. River might at least understand Mal, but she's got more than enough of her own problems to deal with, and I doubt Mal would actually unburden himself to her, he'd likely feel it was unnecessary because of what River already knows (but might not comprehend). Inara might understand him, and might even have the time and inclination to help him, but she doesn't.

I think there's a lot of things Mal struggles with under the surface, and he has no outlet. The question about whether he's lonely would be if he actually wants someone around to listen, or if he's naturally a loner. I think there's times where he tries to talk to Inara about this stuff, so I think he IS actively seeking SOMEONE, but he's usually shot down.

So, yeah, I see him as angry and lonely and generally a tragic character, even if there's times he's more upbeat. Mal, despite everything, is strangely an optimist and an idealist.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I think there's a lot of things Mal struggles with under the surface, and he has no outlet. The question about whether he's lonely would be if he actually wants someone around to listen, or if he's naturally a loner. I think there's times where he tries to talk to Inara about this stuff, so I think he IS actively seeking SOMEONE, but he's usually shot down.

So, yeah, I see him as angry and lonely and generally a tragic character, even if there's times he's more upbeat. Mal, despite everything, is strangely an optimist and an idealist.

Mal does not open up to people during the series. He hurts people's feelings (I'm thinking Kaylee, especially), and is not above drawing his gun on his own crew. People are drawn to him anyway. Maybe thats one of the reasons why I like him? Because when he's a jerk he's so dashing?

Anyway, I hereby endorse Byte's characterization of Mal. Byte is an oracle.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 7:59 AM

I guess it's our worldviews that set us up for different interpretations.

I'm in the "life is a struggle that is mostly getting through one craptastic moment to the next and the moments of joy, be they few and far between or coming in succession,are what make it worthwhile." Kind of a "life sucks and then you die" philosophy but with a *wee* bit more optimism.

IF Mall wants someone to unburden himself to and can't do it...I would agree with you that he's closed off and lonely. But I just don't see that in him.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

Mal does not open up to people during the series. He hurts people's feelings (I'm thinking Kaylee, especially), and is not above drawing his gun on his own crew. People are drawn to him anyway. Maybe thats one of the reasons why I like him? Because when he's a jerk he's so dashing?

Anyway, I hereby endorse Byte's characterization of Mal. Byte is an oracle.

but, but, but...Simon, the doormat hurts people's feelings. There's no one alive that hasn't hurt someone. And being a leader? You are going to do things people don't like.

Mal's not perfect...but he's by no means some angry, closed off person who's crew follows him despite himself. He's a flawed character, but one that is at least 90% good.

'course I know my opinion of Mal is different from the majority. I read that one thread all gaped mouth and was like "are we watching the same show?"

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:12 AM

point taken.

when simon hurts people's feelings, it is because he is a boob. he doesn't really consider the implications of what he's saying. case in point: his awesome comment to kaylee about "well, all the other women are pros, married, or related to me..."

when mal does it, like his comment about kaylee and the ball, or kaylee and simon, he bristles with hostility and intent. as in, he knows hes hurting people's feelings, and thats why he says what he says. mal is an asshole, not a boob.

see, mal's character is not subjective, but rather totally objective. there is only one proper way to see mal: my way. let's duel over it. pistols or sabers, your pick.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:44 AM

Actually, I'm not sure Mal intends to hurt people either, EXCEPT when he's really pissed off. Which... Happens.

But the Kaylee thing, I think Mal was more getting hostile because she made the connection between Inara and pretty dresses and her high status and her clients. And so Mal snapped at Kaylee about the dress, but it was really about him, Mal, being low in comparison, and being jealous about the clients. Kaylee is often a direct analogy for Mal's hidden good side and remaining innocence, that gets crushed down by the overwhelming darkness and bitter tragedy he's gone through. Mal bristled, leveraged that darkness at Kaylee, and shot his mouth off.

He indulges the girls admiring the dresses, right up until...

Quote:
KAYLEE
Only place I ever seen something so
nice is some of the things Inara has.

MAL
We'd best be movin'--

ZOE
Guess she needs all that stuff, life
she leads.

KAYLEE
Well, sure. And sometimes the
customers buy her things. She knows
some real rich men--

MAL
Come on. T'ain't feathers I'm toting
here, you know.

KAYLEE
I like the ruffles. Inara gets to
wear whatever she--

MAL
What would you do in that rig?
Flounce around the engine room? Be
like a sheep walkin' on its hind legs.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 8:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

see, mal's character is not subjective, but rather totally objective. there is only one proper way to see mal: my way. let's duel over it. pistols or sabers, your pick.

Awesome. I choose this: edited out the giant picture of the giant sword. Didn't mean to screw up the thread parameters. :D

Bytemite: I agree that Mal didn't intend to hurt Kaylee's feelings about the dress but spouted off because HE was hurt.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:27 AM

well, i disagree. he was hurt, but that doesn't mean he didn't intend to hurt kaylee. if anything, that's why he wanted to hurt kaylee. he wanted to hurt something, and couldn't really hurt the object of his hurt, so kaylee was a serviceable punching bag.

also, rugbug, unless i am mistaken that is a katana. i distinctly offered to duel with pistols, or sabers. katanas are not for dueling, but rather ritualistic suicide.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 10:44 AM

Actually, that would be the wakizashi. Katana are used by samurai for war, and for cutting off the heads of people who have been issued a death sentence (who often FIRST did harakiri, "cutting the belly").

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:03 AM

Drats, I am mistaken, but only partially mistaken, in that the katana does seem to play some role in the ritualistic suicide. As an ardent admirer of yukio mishima, i should know this. at least i got the katana part right. my first instinct was to call it a sai. i may have confused my ninja turtles...

Anyway, I still maintain that it is not a suitable weapon for a gentleman's duel, especially one fought over Malcolm Reynolds.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 11:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

also, rugbug, unless i am mistaken that is a katana. i distinctly offered to duel with pistols, or sabers. katanas are not for dueling, but rather ritualistic suicide.

I couldn't care less what it is suppose to be used for. I just want something sharp and pointy and long and will use it as I see fit.

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
Anyway, I still maintain that it is not a suitable weapon for a gentleman's duel, especially one fought over Malcolm Reynolds.

Well, there's the problem. I'm no gentlemen. ;) No matter, though. I'm going home with Mal. It's only fair as I'm the only one who would enjoy living with him. ;)

(sorry...my post came off a little hostile. It's true that I don't care what the particular sword I posted is "suppose" to be for...but someone else might care.)

Can we all see why I might relate to Mal. ;)

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 1:49 PM

your post didn't come off as hostile at all, but then again, i am kind of hostile myself, so maybe i just didn't notice.

never said that i wouldn't want to live with mal, just that mal is an asshole who is mean to people sometimes. on purpose. cringing boot-licker that i am, we'd get on well, i bet.

if you're no gentleman, then you have no business dueling. i suppose something rowdier and more plebian is in order, which is fine, because this way we won't need seconds. brass knuckles, 2 x 4 with nail, or broken bottle? take your pick.

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Thursday, March 18, 2010 2:03 PM

The weapon of choice is ALWAYS alligators!

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Friday, March 19, 2010 4:07 AM

Hi. Been over this topic plenty of times. Even mixed it up with Bytemite, I seem to recall. We may use different words, but I think we agree in the essentials. So I got to back her up on this. (Poop - "her" does apply, doesn't it Byte? Damn the gender-concealing internet!)

I do see your point, Rugbug, that Mal isn't inherently an angry person, in that he wasn't born that way. But any person's personality is more than what they were born with.

The inherent inner Mal may be a respectful, nice, church-going boy who'd never snap at Kaylee or put down Inara or insult Book. But Mal does all these things. He's just angry, and that inner anger boils over. At times, it makes him act in a way he may not intend and is often ashamed of. But he doesn't seem able to control himself. That's what bottled anger does to a person.

There are plenty of examples in the series, but if nothing else, go with what the writer and actor say. Any commentary by Joss will get into how Mal was screwed up by the war. It changed him in pretty fundamental ways. He not only lost to the Alliance and had his home and family destroyed, he was betrayed by his own side. And by God. He was not able to fight back against these horrible things that happened to him, and that leads to some pretty intense anger.

There's a quote that shows up on the FFF site header every once in a while... something about how Mal is a hollowed out guy who can lash out. Looking... Oh - there's this:

"He lost more than the war. He lost a sense of compassion and forgiveness. He lost his faith in God." - Nathan Fillion on Mal

Ah-hah! And here's the one I meant:

"He won't kill anyone unless he has to. Nice guys can only get so mad. But when you're hollowed out inside you can get pretty mad." - Nathan Fillion on Mal

As for loneliness: yes, I think he's intensely lonely. Brings to mind something Stephen King wrote in his Dark Tower series: A lonely person's biggest problem is finding enough time alone. (Something like that.) This makes a bizarre kind of sense to me. Lonely people aren't *forced* to be alone. Hell, there are other people all over the damned place! But the lonely are trapped by their own... issues, I guess. They seek solitude, even if it's painful to them.

I think Mal knows of his tendency to lash out, and he's incapable of trusting. This is his trap. He is lonely, but can't do anything about it. It's lucky for him that the honorable good-humored person he was born to be shows through, so his crew is drawn to him. Keeps him from really going down the drain.

Really didn't mean to write a long post, but Mal just makes me go on and on. Damn these romantically brooding heroes of fiction!

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Friday, March 19, 2010 5:20 AM

I'm not sure if we've mixed it up exactly. :) I remember posting a thread asking if Mal had PTSD, because I come across that interpretation a lot and had kind of taken it for granted that it was established canon.

So I pretty much started off agreeing with the idea and interpretation of Mal as angry and lonely and bitter, with better qualities that "shine through" at times. The reason I posted that thread is because I was questioning my own assumptions, he doesn't tend to be the jumpy nervous type of PTSD, which is what I was familiar with. Just wanted to collate data, so to speak, see what other people thought and also see what symptoms and analogies and examples people came up with. Was trying to understand better.

I also practically wrote that thread hoping you'd come and elucidate your thoughts... *dimple* You do have one of the more well known Mal PTSD storylines out there.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 6:18 AM

I guess I just don't see Mal as an angry person. Does he have anger? Absolutely. But we all do. Every single one of us. And I'm guessing that most of us have lashed out on occasion, been nasty to loved ones, been aloof, etc.

IMO, an angry person is the guy that was intentionally nasty to me, cursed me out and then was nasty to the police officer. I was the one who did something wrong but it was minor and I was contrite and horrified that I had done it. He would not let up even though no harm had come to him. He wanted me arrested. I thought he was going to start hitting me he was so angry.

My friend's daughter was an angry teen. Oh my. The energy coming off of that one...and I'm not a big "aura/energy" person...but if ever there was an example of bad energy...she was it. Most people couldn't stand to be around her. She was bitter, hostile, nasty, sulky, rude...a real pleasure. I saw her again a few months back and I didn't recognize her...her whole demeanor had changed...and her energy had as well. She was no longer angry...probably still had some residual issues, but it wasn't the only thing to her anymore.

BTW, I don't do much reading/seeking out supplemental information on the show. Maybe I'm a bad fan, but for the most part, I take what I see in the eps and movie. (I have Those Left Behind, but that's it). I know Nathan has said that Mal is hollow, etc, but I don't see that. I just don't see how a hollow man could attract people/loyalty. He may have played him as his version of hollow...but it's not my version of hollow. :D

Anyway, I know I'm not going to convince any of you, especially those who have put a lot of thought into it. But that's the beauty of "art"...everyone gets there own interpretation (within reason) and there is no absolute right or wrong.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 6:44 AM

Quote:
I know Nathan has said that Mal is hollow, etc, but I don't see that. I just don't see how a hollow man could attract people/loyalty.

I wrote something once, probably a little bit fanciful for most everyone's tastes (well, it IS from Inara's perspective), but I think it's apt.

"He is a shell only in the sense that he is armor. They are in his heart and he shelters them; he is steel, twice re-forged, and his edges are all hard."

They all represent something in him, they're like broken glass pieces of himself he's gluing back together. He is angry, but he is incredibly loyal and would do anything for them. When you've earned that kind of loyalty, when you've come to care about someone like that who has been hurt so much already, it would be very hard to walk away from them, I think.

And he has good qualities besides loyalty, he's not completely unredeemable, as the people you describe (and the one girl got better! Maybe she wasn't as bad as all that, maybe she had a reason or was misunderstood? As perhaps Mal might be to people who don't know him well enough to see all of his good qualities?).

But anger and distrust are a very present part of him, that can rise to the surface with very little provocation.

Your view isn't an incorrect one, I think most of us (not entirely sure about mincingbeast) will agree that Mal is charming and ultimately a nice guy. He is just really, REALLY complicated too.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 6:57 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm not sure if we've mixed it up exactly. :) I remember posting a thread asking if Mal had PTSD, because I come across that interpretation a lot and had kind of taken it for granted that it was established canon.

Ah - thanks! I remember now. Yeah, just like with this "angry" idea, it seems we all have different definitions. I don't see PTSD as necessarily being "nervous and jumpy" as you put it, so I think the label is fitting for Mal. The way you define it, it's not so fitting. But, label aside, I think we agree as to Mal's character.

Quote:
I also practically wrote that thread hoping you'd come and elucidate your thoughts... *dimple* You do have one of the more well known Mal PTSD storylines out there.

LOL! Well, I don't really think of it as a PTSD story, though I guess it goes there. I had to do some research of trauma-brain-stuff, but that was storyline I invented, and not canon.

Rugbug - yes, there is definitely more that was intended for this short-lived series than what we see on screen. Us crazy ficwriters dig all that crap out and hash it over in a fairly embarrassing amount of detail. If you're interested: there's no doubt that Joss was going after a conflicted, injured anti-hero type of character. Mal was meant to be much darker than he's presented in the TV series. Joss lightened him up to try to attract a bigger audience (under Fox's orders).

Again though - please get my meaning without getting stuck on a few labels. My definition of anger differs from yours. I don't equate anger with nastiness or cruelty, and I don't think having suppressed anger makes Mal a bad person. Or that he has to be a bad person to earn the label of "angry." But I do think that his behavior is beyond the every day bad moods that all of us experience. And no wonder, with what he's been through!

And yes, disagreeing is fun. I don't at all mind having different ideas of a character. As long as you don't expect me to read any of those happy well-adjusted Mal fics - ew! LOL!

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Friday, March 19, 2010 7:32 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
I'm not sure if we've mixed it up exactly. :) I remember posting a thread asking if Mal had PTSD, because I come across that interpretation a lot and had kind of taken it for granted that it was established canon.
Ah - thanks! I remember now. Yeah, just like with this "angry" idea, it seems we all have different definitions. I don't see PTSD as necessarily being "nervous and jumpy" as you put it, so I think the label is fitting for Mal. The way you define it, it's not so fitting. But, label aside, I think we agree as to Mal's character.

As an aside, there seems to be different types of PTSD. Two of my good friends, both LCSW, think I have some PTSD from a serious fall off my horse...and I agree with them. I have serious issues that make it incredibly difficult for me to ride a horse I don't know...and I constantly worry that horses I do know are going to act up and I'm going to get very hurt. I'm not nervous and jumpy, but there is sometimes debilitating worry and anxiety that I didn't have before the accident. :D

I'm not going to even think about Mal and PTSD...that's a whole kettle of fish that I don't want to open.(YEAH! for mixed metaphors! :D)

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
Rugbug - yes, there is definitely more that was intended for this short-lived series than what we see on screen. Us crazy ficwriters dig all that crap out and hash it over in a fairly embarrassing amount of detail. If you're interested: there's no doubt that Joss was going after a conflicted, injured anti-hero type of character. Mal was meant to be much darker than he's presented in the TV series. Joss lightened him up to try to attract a bigger audience (under Fox's orders).

Oh, this I know. Joss made Mal lighter...and I think Nathan did as well. Nathan's vibrancy carries through...even though he's "playing" him hollow. When I said I don't read supplementals I wasn't including things like commentaries/featurettes on the DVDs, etc.

Quote:
Originally posted by mal4prez:
And yes, disagreeing is fun. I don't at all mind having different ideas of a character. As long as you don't expect me to read any of those happy well-adjusted Mal fics - ew! LOL!

Promise.

I don't think Mal's exactly well-adjusted, but I don't think he'd be hard to live with either. What prompted my posting on this thread was the combo of the thread title, the first post and the previous thread on whether you could live with Mal that's been mulling around with me for a while (although I never posted on it b/c I was so far off the seeming consensus). Combined they give a very different picture of the character than I have always held. I have no problem with Mal...outbursts or not. I like honesty and honest reactions. What I couldn't live with is game playing, manipulation, deception, etc. Mal's got anger, he's disillusioned, he's wounded but none to such a degree that he is defined by those things to the exclusion of his MANY other good traits. As I said earlier, I'd have a harder time living with well-adjusted Kaylee or boring Simon.

I've never been able to read fan-fic of any sort.,..well-adjusted Mal or not. ;) Couldn't do it with the X-files, Buffy, Angel, etc. It just do not appeal to me at all for whatever reason.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 7:49 AM

Fanfic doesn't appeal to you Rugbug? Good, my advice is to avoid it at all costs. It didn't appeal to me either for a while (even though it did) and when I finally admitted to liking it and reading it, fanfic ruined my life.

I think everyone agrees on the major points. Mal lost his identity during the war, or atleast its major elements: his family, his home, his cause, his faith. He is disillusioned. Whether or not this makes him angry is open to interpretation, I suppose, but it'd only be natural to be a little bit wrathful.

And as for loneliness, he has no one to share this experience with--not even Zoe, who only lost a war. Also, he is single and hunky, and the only way to explain this is deep emotional trauma, and loneliness, right? Hmmm...perhaps the Operative understands Mal. I wonder if there's Mal/Operative slash out there. I suspect there must be.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 8:47 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

And as for loneliness, he has not one to share this experience with--not even Zoe, who only lost a war. Also, he is single and hunky, and the only way to explain this is deep emotional trauma, and loneliness, right?

(warning...possible TMI)

:( If Mal is lonely, then I must be lonely and have deep emotional trauma, too. I don't think I'm lonely or have emotional trauma. I occasionally feel lonely, but it's rare. There are plenty of people around me for support, but I just don't need them that often. I do my best to support them when they need it. I just don't seem to "need" people the way others do. IMO, I'm single because I don't make time to go look for anyone. It's just not a priority. If I meet someone that interests me enough to re-arrange my life, I'll go out with them. But that doesn't happen very often (dearth of single, desirable men in both my town and the circles I run). I'm sure many people would look at me and say I was lonely because THEY would be lonely in my situation. But I'm not...so they would be wrong. :Shrug:

'Course, while I am single, I don't know if "hunky" would be a good descriptor (what is the female equivalent of "hunky"?).

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Friday, March 19, 2010 9:14 AM

Ha, well, I thought he had PTSD before I wrote that thread. But I had this idea people being jumpy and nervous, which didn't seem to fit Mal until everyone explained to me about the other types and ways it can manifest. Now that I understand it better, I definitely think Mal has PTSD.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 9:35 AM

my sarcasm is either too powerful, or too weak, i cannot tell. maybe mal isn't, like, lonely, is what i was hinting at: just because he is single and hunky doesn't mean he's not happy being single and hunky. also, there is no female equivalent of hunky. at all.

not sure how i feel about attributing mal's darker tendencies to PTSD. he's jumpy, and nervous, but aren't those good traits for life on the rim?

its an interesting avenue to explore, but for some reason, it seems dangerously close to claiming that Mal has ADHD, aspergers, autism, and bi-polar disorder. That the diagnosis overshadows the personality, you know? alright, that makes no sense. none at all.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 9:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:
not sure how i feel about attributing mal's darker tendencies to PTSD. he's jumpy, and nervous, but aren't those good traits for life on the rim?.

Let's just put it this way...I'd have to be strongly convinced to even consider PTSD for Mal. I think he's changed, but PTSD? Not so sure about that.

BTW...your sarcasm came through..but sarcasm is based on reality. A lot of people think that way...so it bites a bit. ;)

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Friday, March 19, 2010 10:12 AM

Sarcasm is not based on reality, so much as a reaction to it.

Totally see where you're coming from with Mal and loneliness. Folks assume that if you aren't presently hunting for someone to pair off with, or paired off, then you are a fucked up wretch and must weep your loneliness into your pillow every night. Maybe Mal likes his life just fine, or enough not to want to change it, at least.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 10:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

Totally see where you're coming from with Mal and loneliness. Folks assume that if you aren't presently hunting for someone to pair off with, or paired off, then you are a fucked up wretch and must weep your loneliness into your pillow every night. Maybe Mal likes his life just fine, or enough not to want to change it, at least.

Yes...this is what I think I said in my first post. It's not that he's not gittin' the women...it's that he's not lookin' and he doesn't seem upset about it. then I went a little tangential. :D

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:04 AM

Thing is, the fact that Mal still has remnants of being decent, funny, and able to encourage/comfort people instead of bully strongly suggests he didn't have a personality change, but rather developed a disorder.

Anyone who wants to read the thread, it's a long one, but I think some pretty good arguments are made.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=17&t=37331

Quote:
"Gender Differences in the Presentation of PTSD:

There are also differences between men and women in the presentation of PTSD. Women are more likely to have symptoms of numbing and avoidance and men are more likely to have the associated features of irritability and impulsiveness.

So, it's not just jumpiness.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Quote:
Originally posted by mincingbeast:

Totally see where you're coming from with Mal and loneliness. Folks assume that if you aren't presently hunting for someone to pair off with, or paired off, then you are a fucked up wretch and must weep your loneliness into your pillow every night. Maybe Mal likes his life just fine, or enough not to want to change it, at least.

Yes...this is what I think I said in my first post. It's not that he's not gittin' the women...it's that he's not lookin' and he doesn't seem upset about it. then I went a little tangential. :D

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

Whoops! I don't agree with that one at all.

When Mal is with Nandi, who unlike innocent-act-Saffron he seems to see as an acceptable romantic interest, he STILL tries to avoid the issue when Nandi outright is soliciting and seducing him.

We know he doesn't have a lack of interest (because of what happens next), but that initial hesitation suggests that Wash is right on. Mal has some intimacy issues, and he has a little bit of fear about people getting too close. At the same time, there ARE people he seems to want to get closer to, but it's hard for him to open up without becoming defensive.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:11 AM

i dunno...characterizing it as a disorder means that it can be cured. it means that mal can be made...better...and i do not hold to that ;)

will wade through the thread in the interests of being disagreeable. perhaps necromancy is in order!

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Friday, March 19, 2010 11:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Thing is, the fact that Mal still has remnants of being decent, funny, and able to encourage/comfort people instead of bully strongly suggests he didn't have a personality change, but rather developed a disorder.

Anyone who wants to read the thread, it's a long one, but I think some pretty good arguments are made.

http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.asp?b=17&t=37331

Quote:
"Gender Differences in the Presentation of PTSD:

There are also differences between men and women in the presentation of PTSD. Women are more likely to have symptoms of numbing and avoidance and men are more likely to have the associated features of irritability and impulsiveness.

So, it's not just jumpiness.

Well, in a society so quick to put labels on someone/something, PTSD could be an option for Mal. However, based on what I've seen of him, I don't think he meets DSM diagnosis, though (nor do I...we just joke that I have PTSD).

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"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:23 PM

See, this is what I don't like about labels. Calling it PTSD means he must have X symptoms and need Y treatment, and that's completely beside the point.

Mal's been through a dark time and it changed him. It made him less happy, less able to do the things he'd like to do. I think that series Mal could be "improved" in the sense that he could regain control of his own will. That's what the movie is about. River is the trigger that makes him overcome some of his own BS, own his beliefs, and get back into the good fight.

As I see it, it's really not more complicated than that.

Labels suck.

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Friday, March 19, 2010 2:30 PM