Us and them by dreamtrove

REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Us and them

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Thursday, June 3, 2010 13:18
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Thursday, June 3, 2010 7:20 AM

This has been gnawing at me:

If an american research team comes up with new treatment, "they" did it.
If the US govt bombs Afghanistan "we" did it
But, "they" passed a healthcare bill
"we" won three gold medals

More bothersome things

Supposedly the US govt is us, because we vote. But if I'm a shareholder in a Geron, I vote, but I am not geron. Not unless I'm an employee, hired by their management.

Also, "Blair" supported the invasion lf Iraq, which "Bush" carried out, but "Israel" attacked the flotilla, rather than "Netanyahu." (I do not think this skew is in israel's favor, it seems decidedly against)

Does this commonly accepted language affect the debate? Should it be changed, and if so, how? Did it arrive naturally, or is it the result of influence..?

When are we "us" and when are we "them" ?
Does this relate to the conspiracy "they"?

Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on it. I haven't comme to any conclusions my self, I just noticed that it was bouncing around our language.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 7:22 AM

PENGUIN

"Us" is anything I believe in.

"Them" is everything else.

King of the Mythical Land that is Iowa

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 8:46 AM

KANEMAN

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
This has been gnawing at me:

If an american research team comes up with new treatment, "they" did it.
If the US govt bombs Afghanistan "we" did it
But, "they" passed a healthcare bill
"we" won three gold medals

More bothersome things

Supposedly the US govt is us, because we vote. But if I'm a shareholder in a Geron, I vote, but I am not geron. Not unless I'm an employee, hired by their management.

Also, "Blair" supported the invasion lf Iraq, which "Bush" carried out, but "Israel" attacked the flotilla, rather than "Netanyahu." (I do not think this skew is in israel's favor, it seems decidedly against)

Does this commonly accepted language affect the debate? Should it be changed, and if so, how? Did it arrive naturally, or is it the result of influence..?

When are we "us" and when are we "them" ?
Does this relate to the conspiracy "they"?

Just curious if anyone had any thoughts on it. I haven't comme to any conclusions my self, I just noticed that it was bouncing around our language.

Yeah, you lost me...

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 9:50 AM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important

Hello,

I think the Us, We, Them, They terminology speaks more towards the individual who either identifies with, or does not identify with, the subject.

I would say 'They' cured cancer because I do not feel connected to the R&D involved.

But an activist who collects money for cancer research might say 'We' cured Cancer, since they identify with the R&D by way of supporting it.

When I talk about Israel, I often say 'They' did something in order to distance myself from them, even though much of my emotional distress is due to the fact that 'We' did it in terms of our nation supporting theirs, and hence we become at least partially responsible for their actions. The secret shame is that 'I' did it because I support my government. But seldom are the cases where I am prepared to say, "I attacked a Turkish aid convoy." I can wrap myself in sufficient layers of distance from the individuals involved to say it was 'Them' and not 'Me.' This distinction is as much to mollify my feelings as due to any real insulation from responsibility that the distance gives me.

The leader of a country is often identified with the country, hence under Bush, every action of the government was decried by Piratenews as "Bush does X" and now every action of the government is decried by him declaring "Obama does Y." This is reflective of Pirate's stance that everything the government does is connected to a secret and sinister cabal. He will also interject 'Jews' as in 'Jews do X and Y' and frequently these Jews are British, Nazi, and Homosexual. So we learn about Piratenews by how he identifies with his subjects.

All of these terms tell you about the speaker and his feelings, and not necessarily about the subject and the subject's actual relationship to anything. Even if we wished to change the subjective nature of language, we could not. Not if we are to remain emotional humans.

--Anthony

"On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you." --Auraptor

"This vile and revolting malice - this is their true colors, always has been, you're just seeing it without the mask of justifications and excuses they hide it behind, is all. Make sure to remember it once they put the mask back on." --Fremdfirma

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:07 AM

HERO

Quote:
Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Supposedly the US govt is us, because we vote.

The US govt is always 'US'.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I find those statements amazing. I said I found your remarks 'amazing'" Niki2, 2010.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:33 AM

DREAMTROVE

Anthony, interesting, esp. The part about feeling responsible. Also, yes, different people gave different us and them breaking points, but a lot is also close to universal, and maybe even set by someone.

We sent a man to the moon
They raised taxes.

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 10:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Anthony's nailed it, for me; it's all about who someone either is involved with our FEELS a part of, etc.

I say "us" about our government because I feel at least partly responsible. I don't, however, feel enough responsibility for things like the attack on the convoy to say "we" when referring to Israel. I guess to me, if there is a country which does something other than my country, it's not "me". I guess I also think of our government as "they"--certainly because of distrust, but also because I don't think it reflects ME. Which is real grey territory; I take responsibility for my country's actions--good AND bad--but I don't identify with the government within our country. Hmmmmm...

I say "they" about Republicans, if I refer to them other than as Republicans, definitely "they" when it comes to Tea Partiers, and switch between "they" and "we" when it comes to democrats, which is an interesting point.

Maybe we should keep track for a while? I think with some of our simpler members, it'd be easy, but I'm wondering if some of our members who live in the grey world (as opposed to the black and white one) switch "us" and "them" around like I do?

Quote:
All of these terms tell you about the speaker and his feelings, and not necessarily about the subject and the subject's actual relationship to anything. Even if we wished to change the subjective nature of language, we could not. Not if we are to remain emotional humans

Excellent point, Anthony, another reason I think it would be interesting to take note.

Hippie Operative Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
signing off

To our President: “Mr. President, you're a god damn, mother fucking liar. Fuck you, you cock sucking community activist piece of shit.... oh, go fuck yourself, Mr. President” ...Raptor

To Anthony, unquestionably the most civil person on this forum: “Go fuck yourself. On this matter, make no mistake. I want you to go fuck yourself long and hard, as well as anyone who agrees with you. I got no use for you. ...Raptor

To Frem: “You miserable piece of shit.” ...Raptor

To Niki: “My guess is it won't just be your ugly face you dislike.....Well, it's true......if you had a soul.” ...Raptor

...Remember, remember, the ugliest member...

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Thursday, June 3, 2010 1:18 PM

FREMDFIRMA

Well, when it comes to this government, no matter who is in charge of at the time, it's always "them", for me - they only get my money via force majeure anyhow.

But the gov is *always* gonna be "them" to me, and why ?

THAT's why.

-F

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