Sign Up | Log In
REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS
Tit for Tat
Saturday, July 16, 2011 3:33 PM
DREAMTROVE
Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:54 PM
FREMDFIRMA
Sunday, July 17, 2011 4:18 AM
KWICKO
"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)
Quote:Anderson says even though the employees had access, federal law states you cannot tap into someone else’s conversation without them knowing about it.
Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:26 AM
AURAPTOR
America loves a winner!
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: From Frem's linked article: Quote:Anderson says even though the employees had access, federal law states you cannot tap into someone else’s conversation without them knowing about it. Oh, THAT is rich! "It's only a crime when YOU do it to US!"
Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:13 AM
NIKI2
Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...
Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:34 AM
Quote:William Davis, who served on a capital jury that voted for a life sentence, said he did not see the point of the exercise after a judge dismissed the jury’s unanimous recommendation as “not helpful.” “If the judge is going to overrule the jury,” he said in a court hearing in Montgomery last year, “then you don’t need a jury. The jury don’t serve a purpose.”
Sunday, July 17, 2011 7:41 AM
Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:03 AM
Quote: Serious things like wiretapping and secret detentions and waterboarding, yes, but this?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:41 AM
Quote:bet dollars to donuts they're all male, eh?
Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:50 AM
Sunday, July 17, 2011 9:45 AM
BYTEMITE
Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:08 AM
Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:41 AM
Quote:Originally posted by dreamtrove: Oy, can we make it a bagel? On second thought, I just remembered whozit might still be in the room. Better make it a donut. That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.
Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:06 PM
1KIKI
Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.
Sunday, July 17, 2011 2:24 PM
Sunday, July 17, 2011 2:52 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 7:28 AM
Monday, July 18, 2011 8:50 AM
Quote:As it turns out, there’s also a Facebook group dedicated to cops’ fascination with the sex toys they find on drug raids.
Quote:The Midland County Clerk's office confirmed Monday proposed recall petition language has been filed against Schuette, who is in his first year as the state's attorney general. A clarity hearing on the language is Aug. 1. An email seeking comment was sent to a Schuette's spokesman. The Saginaw News says the effort is related to what the recall organizer calls Schuette's "insubordination" of state voters who approved the use of marijuana for medical purposes.
Monday, July 18, 2011 9:31 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Raptor, anyone who thinks pat downs are more tyrannical than wiretapping, secret detention and torture (yes it is) really needs help with their priorities! I'd LOVE to see you endure all three, then see how you felt about the "tyranny" of being patted down at an airport!
Monday, July 18, 2011 9:33 AM
Monday, July 18, 2011 9:46 AM
Monday, July 18, 2011 10:23 AM
Quote: The CIA’s waterboarding was “different” from training for elite soldiers, according to the Justice Department document released last month. “The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed,” the document notes. In soldier training, “The interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth (on a soldier’s face) in a controlled manner,” DOJ wrote. “By contrast, the agency interrogator … continuously applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose." The CIA’s waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown. “In our limited experience, extensive sustained use of the waterboard can introduce new risks,” the CIA’s Office of Medical Services wrote in its 2003 memo. “Most seriously, for reasons of physical fatigue or psychological resignation, the subject may simply give up, allowing excessive filling of the airways and loss of consciousness.
Quote:Here is the most chilling way I can find of stating the matter. Until recently, “waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). In these harsh exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict. ..... It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly: “Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body." As the agreement went on to say, there would be safeguards provided “during the ‘water boarding’ process, however, these measures may fail and even if they work properly they may not prevent Hitchens from experiencing serious injury or death.” ..... You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it “simulates” the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning—or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure. The “board” is the instrument, not the method. You are not being boarded. You are being watered. This was very rapidly brought home to me when, on top of the hood, which still admitted a few flashes of random and worrying strobe light to my vision, three layers of enveloping towel were added. In this pregnant darkness, head downward, I waited for a while until I abruptly felt a slow cascade of water going up my nose. Determined to resist if only for the honor of my navy ancestors who had so often been in peril on the sea, I held my breath for a while and then had to exhale and—as you might expect—inhale in turn. The inhalation brought the damp cloths tight against my nostrils, as if a huge, wet paw had been suddenly and annihilatingly clamped over my face. Unable to determine whether I was breathing in or out, and flooded more with sheer panic than with mere water, I triggered the pre-arranged signal and felt the unbelievable relief of being pulled upright and having the soaking and stifling layers pulled off me. I find I don’t want to tell you how little time I lasted. ..... Then I said, with slightly more bravado than was justified, that I’d like to try it one more time. There was a paramedic present who checked my racing pulse and warned me about adrenaline rush. An interval was ordered, and then I felt the mask come down again. Steeling myself to remember what it had been like last time, and to learn from the previous panic attack, I fought down the first, and some of the second, wave of nausea and terror but soon found that I was an abject prisoner of my gag reflex. ..... In case it’s of interest, I have since woken up trying to push the bedcovers off my face, and if I do anything that makes me short of breath I find myself clawing at the air with a horrible sensation of smothering and claustrophobia. No doubt this will pass. As if detecting my misery and shame, one of my interrogators comfortingly said, “Any time is a long time when you’re breathing water.” I could have hugged him for saying so, and just then I was hit with a ghastly sense of the sadomasochistic dimension that underlies the relationship between the torturer and the tortured. I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.
Quote:During the Spanish-American War, a U.S. soldier, Major Edwin Glenn, was suspended from command for one month and fined $50 for using "the water cure." In his review, the Army judge advocate said the charges constituted "resort to torture with a view to extort a confession." He recommended disapproval because "the United States cannot afford to sanction the addition of torture."
Quote:"I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," [McCain] told reporters at a campaign event. McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as "water cure," "water torture" and "waterboarding," according to the charging documents.
Monday, July 18, 2011 10:39 AM
Quote:Speaking in Iowa on Thursday, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who 40 years ago today was shot down, captured, and tortured by the North Vietnamese, took issue with Giuliani and Mukasey. McCain denounced waterboarding as clear-cut torture: “Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak,” said McCain after a campaign stop at Dordt College here. “People who have worn the uniform and had the experience know that this is a terrible and odious practice and should never be condoned in the U.S. We are a better nation than that.” McCain said that those who are unsure about waterboarding “should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.” He has previously called waterboarding “very exquisite torture.”
Quote:Rudolph W. Giuliani’s statement on Wednesday that he was uncertain whether waterboarding, a simulated drowning technique, was torture drew a sharp rebuke yesterday from Senator John McCain, who said that his failure to call it torture reflected his inexperience. “All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today,” Mr. McCain, who spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp, said in a telephone interview.
Quote:Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding. "There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference. He said he forgot to mention that piece of history during Wednesday night's Republican debate, during which he criticized former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney after Romney declined to publicly say what interrogation techniques he would rule out. "I would also hope that he would not want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition, was used by Pol Pot in one of the great eras of genocide in history and is being used on Burmese monks as we speak," the Arizona senator said. "America is a better nation than that."
Quote:John McCain, writing with Sen. Lindsey Graham to Attorney Gen. Michael Mukasey, on Nov. 9, 2007: "Waterboarding, under any circumstances, represents a clear violation of U.S. law. In 2005, the President signed into law the so-called “McCain Amendment,” a prohibition on cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment as those terms are understood under the standards of the U.S. Constitution. We expressed then our strong belief that a fair reading of this legislation outlaws waterboarding and other extreme techniques."
Quote:At an Iowa Falls event, The Times' Aaron Zitner heard the Arizona senator criticize Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani for saying, in McCain's words, that waterboarding could be used under certain circumstances. "Now, my friends," McCain said in his familiar speech pattern, "waterboarding is torture . . . No mistake about that." He also said, "We have to have the moral high ground," and said use of waterboarding hurts the United States' reputation worldwide.
Monday, July 18, 2011 10:56 AM
Quote: You try to murder 100's or 1000's of innocent people, I sure as hell hope you end up in some un-fun place.
Quote: Many detainees locked up at Guantanamo were innocent men swept up by U.S. forces unable to distinguish enemies from noncombatants, a former Bush administration official said Thursday. "There are still innocent people there," Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, told The Associated Press. "Some have been there six or seven years."
Quote:The whistleblowing website WikiLeaks has begun releasing thousands of secret documents from the U.S. military prison at Guantánamo Bay that reveal the Bush and Obama administrations knowingly imprisoned more than 150 innocent men for years without charge. In dozens of cases, senior U.S. commanders were said to have concluded that there was no reason for the men to have been transferred to Guantánamo. Among the innocent prisoners were an 89-year-old Afghan villager and a 14-year-old boy who had been kidnapped. Some men were imprisoned at Guantánamo simply because they wore a popular model of Casio watches, which had been used as timers by al-Qaeda.
Quote:Files obtained by the website Wikileaks have revealed that the US believed many of those held at Guantanamo Bay were innocent or only low-level operatives. The files, published in US and European newspapers, are assessments of all 780 people ever held at the facility. They show that about 220 were classed as dangerous terrorists, but 150 were innocent Afghans and Pakistanis. The Pentagon said the files' release could damage anti-terrorism efforts
Quote:The Washington Post details a disturbing case of likely innocence in Guantanamo. The problem with Guantanamo is not that there may be some innocent people in the prison. It’s that there’s very little evidence at all against the vast majority of people we’re holding there. If I may indulge, and quote from a short piece I wrote for reason a while back:In May 2003, Guantanamo held 680 prisoners, the highest number to date. About half have since been released. The Bush administration has claimed the prisoners at the camp represent the “worst of the worst” terrorist threats to the U.S. But when the Seton Hall law professor Mark Denbeaux and the defense attorney Joshua Denbeaux analyzed information supplied by the Defense Department, they found that less than half the inmates were determined to have committed a hostile act against the United States or its allies. Only 8 percent are suspected to be Al Qaeda fighters. Of the 385 still held at Guantanamo, the Pentagon plans to formally charge 60 to 80. To date, just two have been tried by a military tribunal, and only one, Australian David Hicks, has been convicted.
Monday, July 18, 2011 12:26 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 12:44 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 12:52 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 12:57 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 4:28 PM
RIONAEIRE
Beir bua agus beannacht
Monday, July 18, 2011 4:46 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 4:56 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:01 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: And still, some want to think that they can perform waterboarding on themselves, and decide? Beyond ridiculous.
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:03 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Again, I got no problem with it being an option. And not to use it simply to F up people who we don't like, but to get info which could save lives of civilians or our servicemen, and as was the case here, ultimately lead to the killing of bin Laden. No, I have no problems with it at all. Especially because it is NOT torture.
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:11 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:25 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:30 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: And still, some want to think that they can perform waterboarding on themselves, and decide? Beyond ridiculous. Exactly. It is beyond ridiculous to think that the military can waterboard themselves to come to the conclusion that it's not torture.
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:32 PM
Quote:Originally posted by Kwicko: Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: Again, I got no problem with it being an option. And not to use it simply to F up people who we don't like, but to get info which could save lives of civilians or our servicemen, and as was the case here, ultimately lead to the killing of bin Laden. No, I have no problems with it at all. Especially because it is NOT torture. Sounds like you're volunteering. I sincerely hope someone takes you up on it and waterboards you at least 183 times. You can't complain about that, because you defend it and openly say you have no problems with it at all.
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:35 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:43 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 5:56 PM
Quote:Originally posted by AURaptor: I'm not a terrorist who has killed any reporters and who is intent on killing as many innocent people as I can, or who knows any who are...so there's no intel to get from me, thus, no point in waterboarding.
Monday, July 18, 2011 6:24 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 6:27 PM
Quote:And we killed OBL from the intel gained, so it's all good.
Monday, July 18, 2011 7:05 PM
Monday, July 18, 2011 7:16 PM
PIRATENEWS
John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!
Quote:Originally posted by Niki2: Well, devil's advocate here. I don't blame the people doing it; they have to. Yeah, the come back will be "they should quit". In this economy, and if they have families, I don't blame them for hanging onto whatever job they've got. I WOULD like to meet one who had the decency to apologize quietly, tho'; it would show some decency. Go twist the boob of whoever started this shit at the TSA if you will...tho' bet dollars to donuts they're all male, eh? But not the poor slobs who have to actually DO it! But putting her in jail? And a FELONY? How ridiculous is that (well, you already know). Traveling three days a week, I'm not surprised the woman lost it...I can't even conceive of going through that shit that often! I only went through it once, going to N.O., and that was bad enough. Didn't get groped, I don't care what pics they take of my old bod, but they made me sit down and take off my "boot" (the huge thing I had to wear for my achilles tendonitis) and other shoe, and left me sitting there while they went over it with a fine toothed comb, which was quite bad enough, thank you!
Monday, July 18, 2011 9:35 PM
Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:03 AM
Quote:Originally posted by Bytemite: Quote:And we killed OBL from the intel gained, so it's all good. "The ends justify the means." "For the greater good."
Tuesday, July 19, 2011 5:44 AM
Quote:By the way, Niki - you're trying to reason with Rappy. Might want to see to that.
Friday, July 22, 2011 4:50 PM
JAMERON4EVA
YOUR OPTIONS
NEW POSTS TODAY
OTHER TOPICS
FFF.NET SOCIAL