REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Tit for Tat

POSTED BY: DREAMTROVE
UPDATED: Friday, July 22, 2011 16:50
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Saturday, July 16, 2011 3:33 PM

DREAMTROVE


http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/07/16/main20080110.shtml

(CBS/AP)

PHOENIX — Authorities say a Colorado woman who allegedly groped a female Transportation Security Administration agent at Phoenix's international airport is facing a felony count of sexual abuse.

Phoenix police say 61-year-old Yukari Mihamae is accused of grabbing the left breast of the unidentified TSA agent Thursday afternoon at an airport checkpoint.

TSA staff say Mihamae refused to be go through passenger screening and became argumentative before she squeezed and twisted the agent's breast with both hands.

Police were called and say Mihamae admitted grabbing the TSA agent and continued to argue with officers before she was arrested.

Maricopa County jail officials say Mihamae was released from custody Friday. They couldn't immediately provide any information about her case status.

Phoenix TV station KSAZ says Mihamae lives in Longmont, Colo., and is self-employed.

One of Mihamae's neighbors told FOX31 Denver: "For her to be arrested for anything is totally shocking to me."

He added that Miyamae travels about three days a week.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Saturday, July 16, 2011 9:54 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh indeed, they do NOT like it when you return the favor, just more proof that this is, essentially, a class war.

Here's an even MORE amusing bit, at least to my sense of humor.
http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2011/07/12/tarrant-county-sheriff-investigatin
g-surveillance-camera-breach
/

I did much the same to my nieces school, and now the administration is trying like hell to get RID of those damn cameras, despite blowing most of their budget on the damn things in order to have em put in.

See also, several good blogs, The Agitator and Photography is not a crime - which carry more on this topic while lambasting that double standard.

A camera is like a sword, it has TWO edges, and cuts both ways.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 4:18 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


From Frem's linked article:

Quote:

Anderson says even though the employees had access, federal law states you cannot tap into someone else’s conversation without them knowing about it.


Oh, THAT is rich! "It's only a crime when YOU do it to US!"




"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 5:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
From Frem's linked article:

Quote:

Anderson says even though the employees had access, federal law states you cannot tap into someone else’s conversation without them knowing about it.


Oh, THAT is rich! "It's only a crime when YOU do it to US!"



Much like how we can't lie to the police, but it's perfectly fine for them to line to us.

All animals are equal. Some just more equal than others.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Well, devil's advocate here. I don't blame the people doing it; they have to. Yeah, the come back will be "they should quit". In this economy, and if they have families, I don't blame them for hanging onto whatever job they've got. I WOULD like to meet one who had the decency to apologize quietly, tho'; it would show some decency.

Go twist the boob of whoever started this shit at the TSA if you will...tho' bet dollars to donuts they're all male, eh? But not the poor slobs who have to actually DO it!

But putting her in jail? And a FELONY? How ridiculous is that (well, you already know). Traveling three days a week, I'm not surprised the woman lost it...I can't even conceive of going through that shit that often! I only went through it once, going to N.O., and that was bad enough. Didn't get groped, I don't care what pics they take of my old bod, but they made me sit down and take off my "boot" (the huge thing I had to wear for my achilles tendonitis) and other shoe, and left me sitting there while they went over it with a fine toothed comb, which was quite bad enough, thank you!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, July 17, 2011 6:34 AM

FREMDFIRMA


Oh yes, and on this note, and I plan to bring this to bear against the Judge down at 14B when I have to show up for this fuckin farce...

Overriding the Jury in Capital Cases
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/12/us/12bar.htm
Quote:

William Davis, who served on a capital jury that voted for a life sentence, said he did not see the point of the exercise after a judge dismissed the jury’s unanimous recommendation as “not helpful.”

“If the judge is going to overrule the jury,” he said in a court hearing in Montgomery last year, “then you don’t need a jury. The jury don’t serve a purpose.”


Cause it's all a dog and pony show, a facade for the masses to make people think they got some say, when really... they don't.

Besides which, they bloody well *KNOW* that my universal hostility to the State and its agents, and fundamental belief that the system as practiced violates the Constitutional right to a fair trial (leaving me only ONE verdict option, regardless of guilt or innocence) thus technically disqualifies me as a juror to begin with, although it really shouldn't.
They're just doin this to fuck with me, and everyone involved knows it.

-Frem
ETA: We'll have to agree to disagree on that one, Niki - because that very concept is what leads to tyranny, I do not accept "just following orders" and "but I got a family to feed!" as excuses for enabling tyranny and being one of its trigger pullers, without which - IT CAN NOT HAPPEN.

And yeah verily, I put my money where my mouth is, I could make over triple what I make now by accepting Elliots offer to sit in a damn closet up at DTW and use my behavioral analysis skills on the folks in the crowd, but it ain't just the light, noise and crowds... it's that I WILL NOT SUPPORT THIS, even if it costs me something... hell, comes to it, even if it costs me *everything*.

And supporting ones family by making the world they live in more of a hell doesn't strike me as a very good long term plan, either.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 7:41 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I guess the difference is I don't think what they're doing amounts to something that leads to tyranny. Given the uproar over this particular issue, I think Americans wouldn't succumb to the kind of tyranny you see this as the first step to. I know, Nazis and all of that, but I don't buy it. Serious things like wiretapping and secret detentions and waterboarding, yes, but this? We'll have to wait and see, but I don't see it as all that bad. Which of course will bring a chorus of opposite views, just bear in mind that this is my OPINION, that's all. Having worked for lawyers most of my career, I know what it feels like to bite the bullet and go on doing the job--and you have to admit, you've only yourself to feed, I believe? Try feeling that way when you see your family suffering for your conscience.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:03 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Serious things like wiretapping and secret detentions and waterboarding, yes, but this?


Wiretappings have been going on since there were wires TO tap, by everyone, so don't kid yourself there.

Secret detentions ? Pretty much like aliens being held captive in Area 51. Not worth my time. Siberian Gulags or the killing fields ? Most want to over look that, but rumored secret detentions of islamic terrorists ? Shocker !

And waterboardings are such a non issue any more, hardly see the point in bringing that up.

This TSA harassment / groping of the mass public, though, that IS tyranny, straight up. It's ineffective ( as test after test have shown ) at weeding out potential terrorists. It's more about the INTENT of the person, not what is in their wire bra, which we needs looking into.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:41 AM

DREAMTROVE


Quote:

bet dollars to donuts they're all male, eh?


Actually, that would be Janet Napolitano. Which do I win, dollars, or donuts?



That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 8:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


"Policy", yes DT, but who heads up the TSA to plan it and implement it? You get points for "started this shit", but the details of how and what and overseeing implementation, etc.? Still, will try to squeeze some donuts through the ether for youm 'cuz you're close enough...

Raptor, anyone who thinks pat downs are more tyrannical than wiretapping, secret detention and torture (yes it is) really needs help with their priorities! I'd LOVE to see you endure all three, then see how you felt about the "tyranny" of being patted down at an airport!


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Sunday, July 17, 2011 9:45 AM

BYTEMITE


Ooh, another issue we all seem to mostly agree on. We've had a good run this week.

Slightly surprised that anyone considers the TSA agents remotely sympathetic though, economy or no.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 10:08 AM

DREAMTROVE


Oy, can we make it a bagel?

On second thought, I just remembered whozit might still be in the room. Better make it a donut.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 11:41 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by dreamtrove:
Oy, can we make it a bagel?

On second thought, I just remembered whozit might still be in the room. Better make it a donut.


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.




That "donut" might just be a bagel that Zit already glazed...

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 12:06 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.


"but they made me sit down and take off my "boot" ... and other shoe, and left me sitting there while they went over it with a fine toothed comb ..."

I guess I just see the opportunity for humor. Like putting a really small piece of limburger cheese in an old pair of sneakers before going off to the airport, putting leaded crystal salt and pepper shakers in your luggage, carrying, as I do, nearly a pound total of prescription medication just because you can (the person who started searching my pill collection actually gave me the 'oh, you poor dear' look before waving me on through.)

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 2:24 PM

DREAMTROVE


Mike

Oy vey. I can tell the difference between a donut and a bagel.


And also Ew...


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Sunday, July 17, 2011 2:52 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Gotchya!

You'll never eat a glazed donut again!

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Monday, July 18, 2011 7:28 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Kiki, I love your sense of humor...AND imagination! Actually, I DO take a ton of pills every day, and had them all counted out so I only took what I needed for the trip. They didn't bat an eye!

But if we put our minds to it, I'll bet we could come up with lots of fun stuff. I put one of my snakes in a drawer when my husband was my boss...just a little guy, a boa, but you should have seen his face when he opened the drawer! I'm damned lucky I didn't get fired.

That would have been such fun, except they'd have confiscated my snake...


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 18, 2011 8:50 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Oh yes, and they NEED a good messing with, as does the Oakland County PD, once again shaking down dispensaries and their patients left and right, the latest outrage being this...

http://www.theagitator.com/2011/07/18/dildos-for-justice/
Quote:

As it turns out, there’s also a Facebook group dedicated to cops’ fascination with the sex toys they find on drug raids.

Whiskey-Tango-Foxtrot, Over ?!
The fact that there's ENOUGH of this bullshit for a facebook page is kind of apalling, really.

Of course, the bums-rush on the dispensaries is but one of the reasons for this, and another (which mind you I directly stated here) is this sumbitch voicing support for Romney and his scummy child-abusing backers
Clipped from AP wire direct feed
Quote:

The Midland County Clerk's office confirmed Monday proposed recall petition language has been filed against Schuette, who is in his first year as the state's attorney general. A clarity hearing on the language is Aug. 1.

An email seeking comment was sent to a Schuette's spokesman.

The Saginaw News says the effort is related to what the recall organizer calls Schuette's "insubordination" of state voters who approved the use of marijuana for medical purposes.


And yeah, you already KNOW who one of the primary sponsors is, don't you ?

We're gonna give these bastards the Elmer "FUD" treatment, we are.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 9:31 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Raptor, anyone who thinks pat downs are more tyrannical than wiretapping, secret detention and torture (yes it is) really needs help with their priorities! I'd LOVE to see you endure all three, then see how you felt about the "tyranny" of being patted down at an airport!




Then you're more tyrannical than I am, Niki, if you'd like to see a fellow citizen subjected to waterboarding, wiretapping and secret detentions, just for having my own opinion.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 9:33 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You're right, it was bad phraseology. I wouldn't wish that on anyone. How about I wish you KNEW WHAT IT FELT LIKE to endure those things, then I'd like to hear if your opinion had changed. My comment came from the old concept of "walking in another man's shoes".


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 18, 2011 9:46 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki, lots of our military know what it's like. Those who administer the wateboardings themselves have done this, so I don't see how it's remotely construed as 'torture'. KSM, one of 3 who endured waterboardings, would stick his hand out and count off, w/ his fingers, exactly how long he was being waterboarded, indicating that he knew the rules WE had set for ourselves. He made a game of it, so 'horrific' an act it was for him to suffer.


If the Fed govt wants to be bored out of their ever lovin' mind, by all means, listen in to my conversations. Not saying I'd be crazy about it, or that they have no legal right to do so, but 300 million Americans, and not so many of them in the CIA or FBI, I kinda like my odds.

Even more so w/ 'secret' detentions. Sure, it would suck. That's kinda the point, isn't it ? You try to murder 100's or 1000's of innocent people, I sure as hell hope you end up in some un-fun place.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 10:23 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We'll have to agree to disagree...vehemently. As for military personnel who endured it, I can't imagine them saying it WAS torture. It's the military; most of them do as they're told, and the military had a vested interested in "proving" it wasn't torture at that time. In addition:
Quote:

The CIA’s waterboarding was “different” from training for elite soldiers, according to the Justice Department document released last month. “The difference was in the manner in which the detainee’s breathing was obstructed,” the document notes. In soldier training, “The interrogator applies a small amount of water to the cloth (on a soldier’s face) in a controlled manner,” DOJ wrote. “By contrast, the agency interrogator … continuously applied large volumes of water to a cloth that covered the detainee’s mouth and nose."

The CIA’s waterboarding regimen was so excruciating, the memos show, that agency officials found themselves grappling with an unexpected development: detainees simply gave up and tried to let themselves drown. “In our limited experience, extensive sustained use of the waterboard can introduce new risks,” the CIA’s Office of Medical Services wrote in its 2003 memo. “Most seriously, for reasons of physical fatigue or psychological resignation, the subject may simply give up, allowing excessive filling of the airways and loss of consciousness.

http://trueslant.com/conorfriedersdorf/2010/03/10/still-more-evidence-
that-waterboarding-is-torture
/

From someone who volunteered to endure it:
Quote:

Here is the most chilling way I can find of stating the matter. Until recently, “waterboarding” was something that Americans did to other Americans. It was inflicted, and endured, by those members of the Special Forces who underwent the advanced form of training known as sere (Survival, Evasion, Resistance, Escape). In these harsh exercises, brave men and women were introduced to the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions. But it was something that Americans were being trained to resist, not to inflict.

.....

It goes without saying that I knew I could stop the process at any time, and that when it was all over I would be released into happy daylight rather than returned to a darkened cell. But it’s been well said that cowards die many times before their deaths, and it was difficult for me to completely forget the clause in the contract of indemnification that I had signed. This document (written by one who knew) stated revealingly:

“Water boarding” is a potentially dangerous activity in which the participant can receive serious and permanent (physical, emotional and psychological) injuries and even death, including injuries and death due to the respiratory and neurological systems of the body."

As the agreement went on to say, there would be safeguards provided “during the ‘water boarding’ process, however, these measures may fail and even if they work properly they may not prevent Hitchens from experiencing serious injury or death.”

.....

You may have read by now the official lie about this treatment, which is that it “simulates” the feeling of drowning. This is not the case. You feel that you are drowning because you are drowning—or, rather, being drowned, albeit slowly and under controlled conditions and at the mercy (or otherwise) of those who are applying the pressure. The “board” is the instrument, not the method. You are not being boarded. You are being watered. This was very rapidly brought home to me when, on top of the hood, which still admitted a few flashes of random and worrying strobe light to my vision, three layers of enveloping towel were added. In this pregnant darkness, head downward, I waited for a while until I abruptly felt a slow cascade of water going up my nose. Determined to resist if only for the honor of my navy ancestors who had so often been in peril on the sea, I held my breath for a while and then had to exhale and—as you might expect—inhale in turn. The inhalation brought the damp cloths tight against my nostrils, as if a huge, wet paw had been suddenly and annihilatingly clamped over my face. Unable to determine whether I was breathing in or out, and flooded more with sheer panic than with mere water, I triggered the pre-arranged signal and felt the unbelievable relief of being pulled upright and having the soaking and stifling layers pulled off me. I find I don’t want to tell you how little time I lasted.

.....

Then I said, with slightly more bravado than was justified, that I’d like to try it one more time. There was a paramedic present who checked my racing pulse and warned me about adrenaline rush. An interval was ordered, and then I felt the mask come down again. Steeling myself to remember what it had been like last time, and to learn from the previous panic attack, I fought down the first, and some of the second, wave of nausea and terror but soon found that I was an abject prisoner of my gag reflex.

.....

In case it’s of interest, I have since woken up trying to push the bedcovers off my face, and if I do anything that makes me short of breath I find myself clawing at the air with a horrible sensation of smothering and claustrophobia. No doubt this will pass. As if detecting my misery and shame, one of my interrogators comfortingly said, “Any time is a long time when you’re breathing water.” I could have hugged him for saying so, and just then I was hit with a ghastly sense of the sadomasochistic dimension that underlies the relationship between the torturer and the tortured. I apply the Abraham Lincoln test for moral casuistry: “If slavery is not wrong, nothing is wrong.” Well, then, if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture.

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2008/08/hitchens200808

I'll take his word for it. Also, note the program put them through waterboarding to prepare them for "the sorts of barbarism that they might expect to meet at the hands of a lawless foe who disregarded the Geneva Conventions." That pretty much says the MILITARY believes it is torture.

Waterboarding has a long history stretching back, in one form or another, to as early as the 14th century, according to Ed Peters, a historian at the University of Pennsylvania. By the way,
Quote:

During the Spanish-American War, a U.S. soldier, Major Edwin Glenn, was suspended from command for one month and fined $50 for using "the water cure." In his review, the Army judge advocate said the charges constituted "resort to torture with a view to extort a confession." He recommended disapproval because "the United States cannot afford to sanction the addition of torture."
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=15886834

From a McCain statement in 2007, before he "maverickly" became for it:
Quote:

"I forgot to mention last night that following World War II war crime trials were convened. The Japanese were tried and convicted and hung for war crimes committed against American POWs. Among those charges for which they were convicted was waterboarding," [McCain] told reporters at a campaign event.

McCain is referencing the Tokyo Trials, officially known as the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. After World War II, an international coalition convened to prosecute Japanese soldiers charged with torture. At the top of the list of techniques was water-based interrogation, known variously then as "water cure," "water torture" and "waterboarding," according to the charging documents.

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2009/04/yes-we-did-execute-japanese-soldie
rs-waterboarding-american-pows


That's an awful lot of authorities from history, personal experience, the law and Mr. McCain; it's enough to convince me, tho' I'm sure it will never convince you.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 18, 2011 10:39 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


You might not like my sources, I'm sure, but that doesn't make the information any less true. In case you were doubting McCain's statements from 2007-2008, here are a few more quotes:
Quote:

Speaking in Iowa on Thursday, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ), who 40 years ago today was shot down, captured, and tortured by the North Vietnamese, took issue with Giuliani and Mukasey. McCain denounced waterboarding as clear-cut torture:

“Anyone who knows what waterboarding is could not be unsure. It is a horrible torture technique used by Pol Pot and being used on Buddhist monks as we speak,” said McCain after a campaign stop at Dordt College here.

“People who have worn the uniform and had the experience know that this is a terrible and odious practice and should never be condoned in the U.S. We are a better nation than that.”

McCain said that those who are unsure about waterboarding “should know what it is. It is not a complicated procedure. It is torture.” He has previously called waterboarding “very exquisite torture.”

http://thinkprogress.org/security/2007/10/26/17210/mccain-mukasey-tort
ure
/
Quote:

Rudolph W. Giuliani’s statement on Wednesday that he was uncertain whether waterboarding, a simulated drowning technique, was torture drew a sharp rebuke yesterday from Senator John McCain, who said that his failure to call it torture reflected his inexperience.

“All I can say is that it was used in the Spanish Inquisition, it was used in Pol Pot’s genocide in Cambodia, and there are reports that it is being used against Buddhist monks today,” Mr. McCain, who spent more than five years in a North Vietnamese prison camp, said in a telephone interview.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/26/us/politics/26giuliani.html
Quote:

Republican presidential candidate John McCain reminded people Thursday that some Japanese were tried and hanged for torturing American prisoners during World War II with techniques that included waterboarding.

"There should be little doubt from American history that we consider that as torture otherwise we wouldn't have tried and convicted Japanese for doing that same thing to Americans," McCain said during a news conference.

He said he forgot to mention that piece of history during Wednesday night's Republican debate, during which he criticized former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney after Romney declined to publicly say what interrogation techniques he would rule out.

"I would also hope that he would not want to be associated with a technique which was invented in the Spanish Inquisition, was used by Pol Pot in one of the great eras of genocide in history and is being used on Burmese monks as we speak," the Arizona senator said. "America is a better nation than that."

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/11/29/politics/main3554687.shtml
Quote:

John McCain, writing with Sen. Lindsey Graham to Attorney Gen. Michael Mukasey, on Nov. 9, 2007:

"Waterboarding, under any circumstances, represents a clear violation of U.S. law. In 2005, the President signed into law the so-called “McCain Amendment,” a prohibition on cruel, inhuman, and degrading treatment as those terms are understood under the standards of the U.S. Constitution. We expressed then our strong belief that a fair reading of this legislation outlaws waterboarding and other extreme techniques."

http://www.pensitoreview.com/2008/02/15/mccain-flipflops-in-favor-of-w
aterboarding-while-calling-it-illegal
/
Quote:

At an Iowa Falls event, The Times' Aaron Zitner heard the Arizona senator criticize Mitt Romney and Rudy Giuliani for saying, in McCain's words, that waterboarding could be used under certain circumstances. "Now, my friends," McCain said in his familiar speech pattern, "waterboarding is torture . . . No mistake about that."

He also said, "We have to have the moral high ground," and said use of waterboarding hurts the United States' reputation worldwide.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2007/11/torture.html

Respectfully, I think John McCain knows ("knew", since he's flip-flopped since) what consitutes torture than either you or I.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 18, 2011 10:56 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

You try to murder 100's or 1000's of innocent people, I sure as hell hope you end up in some un-fun place.
Before such has been proven? Remember how many people they had to let out of Gitmo because they were innocent, just dragged in off the street? Are you against transparency in our government?
Quote:


Many detainees locked up at Guantanamo were innocent men swept up by U.S. forces unable to distinguish enemies from noncombatants, a former Bush administration official said Thursday.

"There are still innocent people there," Lawrence B. Wilkerson, a Republican who was chief of staff to then-Secretary of State Colin Powell, told The Associated Press. "Some have been there six or seven years."

FOX NEWS, please note - http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/03/19/ex-bush-official-guantanamo
-bay-innocent
/
Quote:

The whistleblowing website WikiLeaks has begun releasing thousands of secret documents from the U.S. military prison at Guantánamo Bay that reveal the Bush and Obama administrations knowingly imprisoned more than 150 innocent men for years without charge. In dozens of cases, senior U.S. commanders were said to have concluded that there was no reason for the men to have been transferred to Guantánamo. Among the innocent prisoners were an 89-year-old Afghan villager and a 14-year-old boy who had been kidnapped. Some men were imprisoned at Guantánamo simply because they wore a popular model of Casio watches, which had been used as timers by al-Qaeda.
http://www.democracynow.org/2011/4/25/wikileaks_documents_reveal_us_kn
owingly_imprisoned


Or, if you don't like that source, you can find the same story at http://articles.sfgate.com/2009-03-20/news/17215507_1_guantanamo-detai
nees-combatants
or http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/03/19/terror/main4877395.shtml
Quote:

Files obtained by the website Wikileaks have revealed that the US believed many of those held at Guantanamo Bay were innocent or only low-level operatives.

The files, published in US and European newspapers, are assessments of all 780 people ever held at the facility.

They show that about 220 were classed as dangerous terrorists, but 150 were innocent Afghans and Pakistanis.

The Pentagon said the files' release could damage anti-terrorism efforts

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13184845
Quote:

The Washington Post details a disturbing case of likely innocence in Guantanamo.

The problem with Guantanamo is not that there may be some innocent people in the prison. It’s that there’s very little evidence at all against the vast majority of people we’re holding there.

If I may indulge, and quote from a short piece I wrote for reason a while back:In May 2003, Guantanamo held 680 prisoners, the highest number to date. About half have since been released. The Bush administration has claimed the prisoners at the camp represent the “worst of the worst” terrorist threats to the U.S. But when the Seton Hall law professor Mark Denbeaux and the defense attorney Joshua Denbeaux analyzed information supplied by the Defense Department, they found that less than half the inmates were determined to have committed a hostile act against the United States or its allies. Only 8 percent are suspected to be Al Qaeda fighters.

Of the 385 still held at Guantanamo, the Pentagon plans to formally charge 60 to 80. To date, just two have been tried by a military tribunal, and only one, Australian David Hicks, has been convicted.

http://www.theagitator.com/2008/01/08/innocent-in-guantanamo/


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Monday, July 18, 2011 12:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Niki

You're missing the entire point of US service men who had endured the very same technique that they then administered to terrorists.

They endured it. They weren't remotely attempting to maim or kill, and they did so under very ( thankfully ) monitored conditions. So much so, that the terrorists themselves knew how long they were going to be 'under' for, and made damn sure that WE knew that they knew. Kinda defeats half the purpose in the 1st place, if they know nothing serious will come of all this, huh?

( I'm sure you'll disagree, but it does. Ask anyone who's done it )

People dragged of WHICH streets ? Here in the US ? Or during the battle field, in Afghanistan ?

Please, you really do make this far too easy.






" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 12:44 PM

BYTEMITE


I'm not sure that knowing that it will end under a certain time frame makes waterboarding not unpleasant. I imagine that might even be a coping or resistance mechanism, as much as a form of defiance.

If someone doesn't break under torture, they're still technically being tortured. Torture also doesn't have to be intended to maim or kill even eventually in order to be classified as torture.

We didn't used to do it because we thought it was beneath us. That's enough for me.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 12:52 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



Again, I got no problem with it being an option. And not to use it simply to F up people who we don't like, but to get info which could save lives of civilians or our servicemen, and as was the case here, ultimately lead to the killing of bin Laden.

No, I have no problems with it at all. Especially because it is NOT torture.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 12:57 PM

BYTEMITE


Your argument makes me want to go home and try it.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 4:28 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


My dad decided to try it for himself in the bathtub, to see whether he would consider it torture or not. It scared him a lot and he hasn't tried it since and he concluded that yes it is torture indeed, I sort of want to give it a go to see how scary it is. But if my dad says its torture then I believe him, plus I've seen it done on movies and it looks like torture to me. So I don't really think whether waterboarding is torture is a valid question, I think the question that we're really asking here is which types of torture are acceptable for which circumstances.
Byte, if you try it let me know how it is, but be careful please.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, July 18, 2011 4:46 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


This is pointless.

What we did wasn't / isn't torture. Not because WE did it,but for the reasons stated, 1000's of x's over.

And still, some want to think that they can perform waterboarding on themselves, and decide?

Beyond ridiculous.


3 terrorist were waterboarded, and it yielded results. I'm fine w/ that, and would do it every day of the week and twice on Sunday, if that's what it takes.



" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 4:56 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Pretty sure they didn't do it to our boys 100+ times a month.

Torture is torture, all your bullshit excuses are no more than that.

But keep handing me your own factions ass on a plate, by all means.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:01 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


And still, some want to think that they can perform waterboarding on themselves, and decide?

Beyond ridiculous.




Exactly. It is beyond ridiculous to think that the military can waterboard themselves to come to the conclusion that it's not torture.



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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:03 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, I got no problem with it being an option. And not to use it simply to F up people who we don't like, but to get info which could save lives of civilians or our servicemen, and as was the case here, ultimately lead to the killing of bin Laden.

No, I have no problems with it at all. Especially because it is NOT torture.




Sounds like you're volunteering. I sincerely hope someone takes you up on it and waterboards you at least 183 times.

You can't complain about that, because you defend it and openly say you have no problems with it at all.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:11 PM

DREAMTROVE


I concur with Frem


That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:25 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


By the way, Niki - you're trying to reason with Rappy.

Might want to see to that.


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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:30 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


And still, some want to think that they can perform waterboarding on themselves, and decide?

Beyond ridiculous.




Exactly. It is beyond ridiculous to think that the military can waterboard themselves to come to the conclusion that it's not torture.






No, it absolutely proves that it's not torture.


And we killed OBL from the intel gained, so it's all good.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:32 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Kwicko:
Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Again, I got no problem with it being an option. And not to use it simply to F up people who we don't like, but to get info which could save lives of civilians or our servicemen, and as was the case here, ultimately lead to the killing of bin Laden.

No, I have no problems with it at all. Especially because it is NOT torture.




Sounds like you're volunteering. I sincerely hope someone takes you up on it and waterboards you at least 183 times.

You can't complain about that, because you defend it and openly say you have no problems with it at all.



I'm not a terrorist who has killed any reporters and who is intent on killing as many innocent people as I can, or who knows any who are...so there's no intel to get from me, thus, no point in waterboarding.

Kwickie fail # 4297


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:35 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Actually, we didn't get OBL with evidence obtained through torture.


The people who get waterboarded in the military have it done to help train them how to resist such torture if they are captured. The military does indeed consider it torture. That they use it in training proves that it IS torture.

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Actually, we did get intel which lead to the killing of OBL via waterboarding.


And we don't torture, but others do. That's what makes us above, better than those we're fighting.

And yes, we are in a fight. Least you forget that.

If we were using waterboarding for torture purposes, then KSM wouldn't be counting w/ his fingers how long he was waterboarded. He could count, of course, but we could just let it go on for hours and hours. We didn't do that.

We don't torture.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, July 18, 2011 5:56 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:


I'm not a terrorist who has killed any reporters and who is intent on killing as many innocent people as I can, or who knows any who are...so there's no intel to get from me, thus, no point in waterboarding.




Prove it.


Rappy fail # 1,592,208,104

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Monday, July 18, 2011 6:24 PM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Remember, if the North Vietnamese didn't call it torture, then John McCain was never tortured, because they didn't torture.



Welcome to RappyWorld™'s new Circular Logic Train®! If you rename something, then it's not that thing that it used to be, because you named it something else, and it can never be what it used to be, unless it's someone else doing that thing, THEN it's the thing you used to call it until you decided you wanted to do it to others!

Claiming that "we don't torture" because you decided to call it "enhanced interrogation" instead of "torture" doesn't mean you don't torture. The fact that you don't CALL IT torture doesn't change what it is.

If it would be considered torture if terrorists did it to you, then it's torture when you do it to them. There's no "Unless you really really WANT TO!" fine print on those treaties outlawing torture.



"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Monday, July 18, 2011 6:27 PM

BYTEMITE


Quote:

And we killed OBL from the intel gained, so it's all good.


"The ends justify the means." "For the greater good."

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Monday, July 18, 2011 7:05 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I tend to think we should steer clear of torture, if we can figure stuff out by other means we totally should. I hear that torture isn't all that effective at getting accurate info anyways, because anyone, including me, would make up whatever the person wants to hear in order to get off the hook. I'll probably be in trouble when they figure out I made it up, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. The only time that torture works is if the person you're torturing happens to know the info you want, and even then its hit and miss because of what I said above and because people with such info are usually trained to tough it out, at least for a while.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, July 18, 2011 7:16 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!






Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:

Well, devil's advocate here. I don't blame the people doing it; they have to. Yeah, the come back will be "they should quit". In this economy, and if they have families, I don't blame them for hanging onto whatever job they've got. I WOULD like to meet one who had the decency to apologize quietly, tho'; it would show some decency.

Go twist the boob of whoever started this shit at the TSA if you will...tho' bet dollars to donuts they're all male, eh? But not the poor slobs who have to actually DO it!

But putting her in jail? And a FELONY? How ridiculous is that (well, you already know). Traveling three days a week, I'm not surprised the woman lost it...I can't even conceive of going through that shit that often! I only went through it once, going to N.O., and that was bad enough. Didn't get groped, I don't care what pics they take of my old bod, but they made me sit down and take off my "boot" (the huge thing I had to wear for my achilles tendonitis) and other shoe, and left me sitting there while they went over it with a fine toothed comb, which was quite bad enough, thank you!



Actually, it's a lesbian dyke.














TSA checkpoint for Fatherland Security

Of course the actual border remains wide open.


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Monday, July 18, 2011 9:35 PM

PIRATENEWS

John Lee, conspiracy therapist at Hollywood award-winner History Channel-mocked SNL-spoofed PirateNew.org wooHOO!!!!!!


My new hero!

Some Facebook users who are obviously frustrated with the strict procedures of the Transportation Safety Administration have set up a Facebook page expressing their support for Mihamae. The “Acquit Yukari Mihamae” page had more than 1,600 supporters on Monday.
http://denver.cbslocal.com/2011/07/18/longmont-woman-draws-national-at
tention-in-tsa-groping-case
/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Acquit-Yukari-Mihamae/193771357344518

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Help-Yukari-Mihamae/245212142172908

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Convict-Yukari-Mihamae/235000219856374

You have more chance of being killed by a toaster than by a terrorist:



Officials at the Department of Homeland Security, the parent agency of the TSA, have claimed that a Congressman violated federal law by disclosing to the press details of 25,000 security breaches over the past ten years, despite the fact that the documents from which he gleaned the information were non-classified. Rep. Jason Chaffetz (R-Utah) received a letter last week outlining the charge from Homeland Security Deputy Counsel Joseph B. Maher, following a Congressional oversight hearing on the TSA last Wednesday.
http://www.infowars.com/tsa-charges-congressman-with-violating-federal
-law-for-exposing-security-breaches
/


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Tuesday, July 19, 2011 2:03 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:

And we killed OBL from the intel gained, so it's all good.


"The ends justify the means." "For the greater good."




And the kicker is, it's just a made up claim. There's no credible evidence that we got ANYTHING through torture that helped us find and kill OBL.


But in RappyWorld™, the ends ALWAYS justify the means. It doesn't matter how you get rich, only THAT you get rich. It doesn't matter HOW you convict someone of "terrorism", only THAT you convict (regardless of actual guilt or innocence, of course). It doesn't matter WHY you invade another country, it's only important THAT you invade them.

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Tuesday, July 19, 2011 5:44 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Quote:

By the way, Niki - you're trying to reason with Rappy.

Might want to see to that.

Crap, you're right Mike. Silly me. And "what you said" above.

The fact is that waterboarding IS torture, was considered torture when done to our servicemen by our enemies, is torture according to the treates our government signed, our enemies were put to death for doing it, and all the bullshit Raptor has bought into is pure, unadulterated spin to attain an agenda.

The other fact is that it's been proven over and over again that we got no information via water boarding that led us to Bin Laden, and that other forms of UNenhanced interrogation DID yield good info.

I, for one, have no desire to ride RappyWorld™'s new Circular Logic Train®. So I'll let Raptor yap on unimpeded. No sense wasting time presenting facts, obviously. Hollering "I AM TOO right!" all day changes no facts.


Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off



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Friday, July 22, 2011 4:50 PM

JAMERON4EVA


This is a tense situation apparently. Apparently it's so tense, it's beaten the Casey Anthony trial for coverage. TSA, and the Casey Anthony stuff was aroun the same time.

"Mom, he has her chip. He has her."
John Connor,"Born To Run", TSCC EP 2x22

"We mustn't over stimulate young minds. Das ist verboten!" - Rappy

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