Women's rights that have nothing to do with abortion. by dreamtrove

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Then women might as well be mules, or cows, or goats, to be bred at will. Because once they are stuffed by whatever means, they no longer matter as free humans.

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Wednesday, July 20, 2011 8:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by 1kiki:
Then women might as well be mules, or cows, or goats, to be bred at will. Because once they are stuffed by whatever means, they no longer matter as free humans.

Well, that's one way to look at mother nature. It's not really on topic though. Not to be a mod or anything.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Wednesday, July 20, 2011 11:25 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Since you insist on being obtuse, let me put this another way.

Suppose you are infected with a parasite. Maybe you took a stupid risk or maybe it was a total accident, but however it got there, it's in you now. Now for whatever reason society values this parasite - maybe it's the last if its kind, or it causes you to make extremely valuable antibodies. In any case society wants it alive - not for your benefit but for their generic one. Now suppose getting treated to rid yourself of this parasite is risky, but keeping it alive inside you until it hatches is even riskier. Should society allow you to get treated and lower your personal medical risk? Or insist you keep harboring it and increase your personal medical risk for a perceived general social good?

Do you want to make that decision for yourself? Or should society have the right to force that medical decision on you?

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:45 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Humans aren't parasites on themselves. We, all of us, are the result of 2 humans joining, and making an entirely new human. Embryos aren't some different species, so the 'parasite' analogy is nonsensical.

If you've made the decision to have sex, you've made the decision to deal w/ the consequences.

Personal responsibility.

The actions belong to you. Do not force others to PAY for your actions.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:51 AM

Gee, there must have been no such thing as women's rights before eugenics came along. Interesting view you have on the human species. It is truly a miracle that you came into this world. You can only thank the stars that your parents did not think as you did. If you want to make an argument in favor of exterminating the poor there's already a thread open for that. I don't think that the poor are parasites, or that killing people is a right. As for this thread, I created it because people claim they want to talk about the issue, but in reality, as you're proving: They don't.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:53 AM

Free speech, property ownership, self-employment or at least choice in place of work, choice in mate(s), right to the self/mind/body/life. The things that ANY human in ANY society at ANY age and ANY period in history would have needed so as not to be a slave/human chattel or rape/murder victim?

Although, here's one that maybe is woman only - the later stages of pregnancy and the recovery period can be pretty debilitating, and for health reasons it can be wise to take it easy and not work a little while before and after the birth.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 5:54 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

The moment I read that, Kiki, I knew you were gonna get a load of flaming shit. I see the comparison, but knew it wouldn't be a popular one, and there are, admittedly, some flaws in it.

Does no good to try and reason on this issue; people aren't open to reason, it's as weighted as religion and politics.

DT:

Quote:
there must have been no such thing as women's rights before eugenics came along

Eugenics, eugenics, eugenics; you seem to think that's behind seemingly almost everything. I might postolate that your parent's experiences have rather colored yoru view on the subject, and many more. I've read about holocaust survivor's children; you might want to look into it. Tho' I'd rather you ignored that, and I can pretty much imagine where it'd go.

Your statement makes no sense anyway. I assume, as best I can make it out, that you're snarking that women had righs before birth control came along. They didn't, in many cases. Their entire lives were learning how to be wives, until they married, then their job was to bear children. The male had all the rights, and womens' job was singularly to raise those children and be an asset to their husband in whatever his endeavor might be. Not everywhere, and not for everyone, but it's been the mentality in most of the world throughout most of history. Right up to the fifties here in America.

Quote:
If you've made the decision to have sex, you've made the decision to deal w/ the consequences.

What a fracking JOKE! It doesn't even need saying, but I will; what about rape, which doesn't even permit abortion in many states?

Wake up, Raptor, you're being even more thick than usual.

DT, looks like we got opposite reactions; you specifically wanted to discuss things other than abortion, and it's taking off ON abortion. Mine wasn't actually about abortion per se, it was about one segment of society imposing it's will on and depriving another (much larger) segment of society of their rights, but given those rights were NOT to have children, it was close enough, yet your thread took off in a completely different direction! As always, nobody controls where a thread goes.

Thing is, the right to bear or not bear children is, for women, one of if not THE most pertinent aspect of their "rights"; an awful lot of our rights (and freedoms) stemmed from that. You can say right to vote was a biggie, and it was; but it wasn't as affecting personally. What other "rights" did you wish to discuss? I'm game.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:06 AM

Quote:
You can say right to vote was a biggie, and it was; but it wasn't as affecting personally.

What. The. Hell?

I'll stab anyone who tries to take that one away from me in the gonads. And I don't even vote, it's the damn principle of the thing.

This is crazy, you guys! Both of these threads are crazy! What are you I don't even... What the hell.

*throws hands up*

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:11 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

IMHO DT is afraid that he would never survive a eugenics program. You may recall that in Nazi Germany the first to go were not "the Chews", the Romas, or even the unionists but the mental defectives. So his dog in this fight isn't religion, it's survival. It is as reflexive as a woman's towards being able to determine her own future. The mistake that DT makes is equating VOLUNTARY abortion with eugenics. There is no comparison.

DT- I know that women can be pressured by economics to choose abortion. So why don't you blame your precious corporations? THEY are the ones pushing a dog-eat-dog agenda.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:17 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Oh, and BTW DT- there are no such things as "rights". What a fallacy! I thought you were smarter than that. There is only power, and what you and your allies can defend. When rape is a tool of war, where do women's "rights" go?? So since this thread is about a non-existent entity, I refuse to discuss women's "rights" any further.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:23 AM

I seriously hope you're being sarcastic on the "power not rights" thing.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:31 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE: NOT AT ALL.

Where did the "rights" of slaves come from to be free? Where did women's "right" to vote come from? Where do animal "rights" come from? Where did worker's "rights" come from? Where did the "rights" of the accused come from?

The exercise of power, and ONLY the exercise of power.

We have our ideals, and in our ideals we would like to be fair (to people like us) and the framing of that "fairness" is what we like to call "rights", and we enshrine it as some sort of "natural" or "god-given" thing. But our ideals are not the real world they are simply our ideals, and those who hold power don't give it up willingly.

RAPPY: One more thing, you moron. You will defend the "rights" of some little proto-human but willingly torture and randomly kill people who you "suspect" of being jihadists... or just acceptable collateral damage- including BTW pregnant women with those precious little fetuses inside them. Please look into that schizoid thinking of yours.... you're worse than PN.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:53 AM

I don't understand any of you.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:15 AM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE- You may have very strong ideas about what "should" and shouldn't be, and find it difficult to confront the messy real world

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:39 AM

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)

For those who think that everyone has all these rights:

Where do YOU think those rights come from?

The bible? Are they ONLY for christians, then?

The Constitution? Are they ONLY for Americans?

And I'm trying to figure out where Rappy thinks having legal access to abortion services is making others "PAY" for their choices.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:11 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, I said quite clearly that I don't think the right to vote affected women as personally. Given the position from which your opinion is derived (never wanting to have children), I think your view, respectfully, might be a bit prejudiced; and if you've never voted, my gawd, I don't understand YOU! For many of the women stuck in the current situation, the right to choose is VERY important and very personal. I would NEVER demean the right to vote, but I think it's tied with the right to choose about our bodies, I think the two were closely connected at the time. It's my opinion, nothing more.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:12 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Sig, an interesting point and a very valid one we seldom recognize. Thank you.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:13 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Mike, yes, I noted the "pay" thing too, but figured I wouldn't comment on it as it would only bring about a tirade about him "paying" this, that or everything for others (a concept he is stuck on).

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:21 AM

But I mean, aside from a possible unfortunate one-night stand or maybe a hooker, WHO is asking Rappy to pay for their abortions?

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:23 AM

Niki: I don't vote as a PROTEST against how screwed up the system has become and because it doesn't seem to change anything NOW, not because I don't understand what it MEANS. Before women's suffrage, it was just ASSUMED that then men in the women's life would take care of all of it for her. Voting is the very reason we don't still have a dowry system in this country, why women can attend school, get a job (that isn't for pennies in a single women slave shop), and run for office. Why we can even speak and be heard, and accuse perpetrators of rape in a courtroom. How a victory for women's rights so universally important can have it's importance so casually dismissed, I can't even process that. Even if it has been corrupt from the beginning - and it probably has - it's better than NOTHING, which is what women had for a damned long time.

And I have voted before. And I was ashamed of what became of it.

Kwicko: First I'm being called rape enabler, woman killer, and child murderer, now I'm being conflated with people who would refuse rights to some portion of the human population, and being called naive for wanting to believe that there is a such thing as human decency and respect.

I was bewildered, and now I'm just starting to become angry. Both of these threads were broken before they were started. And if I'm just going to get caught in the cross-fire, I see no reason for me to participate in either.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:35 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm truly sorry this is upsetting you so much, Byte, but I think you may be taking it personally? I haven't seen anyone do what you said

Quote:
First I'm being called rape enabler, woman killer, and child murderer, now I'm being conflated with people who would refuse rights to some portion of the human population, and being called naive for wanting to believe that there is a such thing as human decency and respect.

Certainly not me, if the first part is referring to our misunderstanding, and i think Mike's comments are direced more generally or perhaps at Raptor more than at you. Just so you know.

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 8:57 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

Byte, this is getting truly weird. I'm getting confused by conversations between us in these two similar threads. I've looked and looked and I can't find something. At one point you apologized for misunderstanding me and I responded that no apology was necessary. Now neither post seems to appear in either thread. Weird! I would understand if you'd gone back to your post to edit out the apology, but my response should still be here. Grrr argh!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:16 AM

There might be glitching going on, I had an odd error a little while ago. I think I might have tried to post something right as the server hiccuped or reset or something.

You're probably right that I'm taking things too personally and getting frustrated. I'm going to busy myself with work related stuff and calm down a little, I'm not sure how much of my last few posts have been freak outs or lashing out. Something in these threads has been making my mental processes "skip" in an odd way. It's like my brain is trying to reboot itself and behaving erratically in the process.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 9:19 AM

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...

I'm sorry to hear that, and thank you, you just explained the problem. I couldn't get on FFF for a couple of minutes, and I think I had just hit "post" when that happened. Mystery solved!

I just wanted you to know I took no offense, nor did I think you had been uncivil at all, and KNEW I'd written that...duh...

Hope you're feeling better soonest...sometimes, as we all know, this place isn't necessarily healthy, mentally, emotionally or four our souls!

Hippie Operative Nikovich Nikita Nicovna Talibani,
Contracted Agent of Veritas Oilspillus, code name “Nike”,
signing off

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 10:42 AM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht

Hi Byte, I agree with you, I don't really understand what is going on in this thread either. In particular I feel like Signe is ranting in a way that I don't understand, its possible she's frustrated about the world we live in more than usual, it can indeed be a frustrating place, I was frustrated yesterday about why everything has to be so complicated.

Women's rights that matter to me: The right to an equal education and the ability to realize my scholastic, intellectual and vocational potential. The right to not have my nethers cut up like in some cultures. The right to vote. The right to choose who I marry, or if to marry. The right to pursue my dreams in the best way I can. The right to own things and property if I choose. The right to leave a husband if he is cruel or hurting me and mine. The right to choose my friends or lovers. The right to privacy. The right to express myself and say how I feel without someone punishing me. Etc.
Obviously there are more but those are some I thought of that matter to me at this juncture.

I'm not going to say anything about abortion because DT started the thread and that isn't what he's looking for from me.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 12:26 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
What a fracking JOKE! It doesn't even need saying, but I will; what about rape, which doesn't even permit abortion in many states? Wake up, Raptor, you're being even more thick than usual.

Genius, I stated - If you've made the decision to have sex, you've made the decision to deal w/ the consequences.

Unless you've decided to get raped... then I fail to see where your comment even warrants a response.

Name 1 state which doesn't allow abortions for rape victims.

" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 1:13 PM

Signym,

I've always wondered if that was a direct Wagner reference, or indirect by way of Mercedes Lackey. Given the M.

Im a fan of your culture btw, but I don't quickly forget your comments abiut the mentally and physically disabled. My sister, of course, was born that way, like the so rercently mentioned Miles Vorkosigan, which is why Sangers little Valkyries swung by to stake their claim. Funny thing life. She likes Wagner* as well. And Mercedes Lackey, in *spite* of, rather than because of, the telepathic horses.

* Really, he gets an unfair Nazi label for his anti-semitism, as does John here. Did I ever once claim that I thought jews were under threat from eugenics here?

But the ring, the ring is the thing, oh... It don't mean a thing if you ain't got that ring...

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM

We wants it, my precioussss

Okay, I paraphrase, but that is what you said more or less when the topic last came up, that it could be taken, and used for good.

What you fail to understand captain is that the ring is evil. It is a circle, it does not have a start or an end, and if you possess it, it will possess you.

See, my master Frodo here has suggested that if he safeguards it, all will be okay, until it is destroyed but I lack confidence. Myself, I think, upon reflection, perhaps 'twere best left at the bottom of the river.

Now, back to the garden...

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:06 PM

I'm not sure I understand this thread or its purpose either. Did you want to discuss women's rights other than abortion? Do you have any examples of what it was you wanted to discuss?

My grandma worked for about 40 years as a temporary teacher, including 'temporary' head teacher after she got married. The Education Department didn't officially employ married women - you were required to leave once you got married, like most jobs. She also received less pay and entitlements than her male counterparts. The expectation was that women must marry if they could, look after the home and children and their was little choice to do anything else. Contraception was almost unheard of. Women who were sexually active had children and there was little they could do about it. Understanding about reproduction was limited. I had another relative who, after having baby after baby for a number of years, pleaded with her midwife to help her do something to 'not have a baby every year'. She was severely reprimanded.

Unmarried women who were sexually active were considered sluts. Unmarried women often had no access to contaception. In many places it was illegal to offer contraception to an unmarried woman. Ummarried women who became pregnant had no alternative but to have their baby adoption and were often forced against their will to do so. To be an unmarried mother was not only incredibly shameful for the woman who would be shunned, but the child would have born the stigma of being a bastard. There were few ways women could support a child if they weren't married.

Women had few property rights. A married woman had none, she handed over all property rights, even her own estate to her husband. Until the 20th century, a woman who divorced usually lost all her rights and access to her children. Divorce grounds were different for a man than for a woman. A man would only have to prove the woman was an adulterer, but for a woman, a man's adultery was not enough to be granted a divorce. she had to prove habitual cruelty.

It was not illegal for a man to rape his wife, hence the term conjugal rights ie a husband had the right to demand sex and not be refused.

It was rare that police would attend a call to domestic violence, let alone prosecute. Women were often unable to leave violent relationships because they would be unable to support themselves, because they were not entitled to work.

Women were considered the weaker sense, not just physically, but mentally as well, being more feeble minded and easily led. That is why there was such resistance to them having the vote. What was the point? They would only do what their husband told them to do.

Women first got the vote

Pitcairn Islands 1838 18 years
Isle of Man 1881 16 years
Cook Islands 1893 18 years
New Zealand 1893 18 years
Australia 1902 18 years
Finland 1906 18 years
Norway 1913 18 years
Denmark (Then including Iceland) 1915 18 years
Armenia 1917 (by application of the Russian legislation)
1919 March (by adoption of its own legislation)[17] 18 years (currently)
20 years (initially)
Canada 1917 18 years
Russia Russian Provisional Government 1917 18 years (currently)
20 years (initially, for city dumas)[18]
21 year (initially, for RCA)[19]
Azerbaijan Azerbaijan Democratic Republic 1918 18 years
Estonia 1918 18 years
Georgia (country) Democratic Republic of Georgia 1918 18 years
Germany 1918 18 years
Hungary Hungarian Democratic Republic 1918 18 years
Kyrgyz SSR 1918 18 years
Latvia 1918 18 years
Lithuania 1918 18 years
Moldova 1918 18 years
Poland 1918 18 years
United Kingdom (Then including Ireland) 1918 and 1928 18 years, was 30 and then 21 years
Austria German Austria 1919 16 years
Belarus Belarusian People's Republic 1919 18 years
Belgium 1919/1948(b) 18 years
Luxembourg 1919 18 years
Netherlands 1919 18 years
Ukrainian SSR 1919 18 years
Southern Rhodesia (Today: Zimbabwe) 1919 21 years
Albania Principality of Albania 1920 18 years
Czechoslovakia (Today: Czech Republic, Slovakia) 1920 18 years
United States 1920 18 years
Sweden 1921 18 years

You can see that the US was quite behind the 8ball. There was a long suffragette movement that involved protests, imprisonment and substantial violence against women. Signy is right about rights, you don't get them because they are inherent. Generally you have to fight for them.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 2:50 PM

Quote:

I'm not sure I understand this thread or its purpose either. Did you want to discuss women's rights other than abortion? Do you have any examples of what it was you wanted to discuss?

Magon,

You surprise me. Maybe it's your non-american take, but yes, there are other issues to women's rights than abortion. I felt as if the forum was constantly saying that we were discussion the issue all the time, but really, there were 65 threads about abortion, and none about any other issues. pre-wwii, abortion was not often address, and yet people were concerned about women's rights. In fact, they were concerned in ancient Rome.

An example? millions of women in china are now factor slaves. It's a policy only for women, that they work in these massive factories and get basically no pay, because their wages are docked by the truck system. They cannot leave, and are surrounded by armed guards and barbed wire fences. This strikes me as an issue of concern.

And yes, it's difficult for a women to get a professorship. The males in my family got them, but the equally qualified females were glass-ceiling'd at instructor adjunct, which pays about 10% the wage.

There are many places where women still cannot own property (in zimbabwe, people of zulu descent can not own property, and rape is legal.)

Domestic violence is generally ignored by authorities.

The education system is slanted against girls. I don't remember all of the statistic off hand, but girls are called on significantly less than boys, and the boys in any class are usually used as the guide. Also, single sex education favors girls, who outperform boys, though both outperform coed school. However, in coed schools, boys outperform girls. The impact of this is exaggerated by out ed. system as once you fall behind, you stay behind.

Women in Walmart stores are not given promotions, while their male counterparts are. The US Supreme court just upheld Walmarts right to discriminate as long as the policy was not official in writing.

That's an absurd position. If you just say "Okay, so you just told everyone not to give women raises, but you didn't write it down, so it's all right."

There are easily 100 issues not being discussed because all that gets discussed is abortion.

Most women will never have an abortion, or even consider one. 72%. Yet, they might be concerned about whether or not they can get a job, or buy a home.

We've often discussed the monetary imbalance in this society, but the gender imbalances never seem to come up. Unmarried women have an average total net asset value $2,500 in the US vs. $40,000 for the average american.

That's what a ship is, you know - it's not just a keel and a hull and a deck and sails, that's what a ship needs.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:07 PM

Hey, Mercedes Lackey. I've read those, though I like the ones with the Griffin wars more than the Heralds and reincarnated horses.

Also I can play one of the songs from Tannhauser on the piano.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:08 PM

What is about my non american take that surprises you?

Yes, I see all those as important issues. I think women have come along way in western countries, but there are still many places in the world where things haven't improved or gone backwards, and I think women in the lower economic strata of society still suffer a lot of indirect discrimination in the western world.

Having a son, I'd probably feel a little differently about the education system here, which may differ greatly from yours, although your generalisations re performance and gender are probably about the same. I'd say the the whole classroom environments favour girls, especially in early years, as they tend to have better social skills, and are often better able to sit and complete tasks than little boys who tend to want to roll around and punch one another. I exagerate for effect. My son's school is so girly it sickens me. The teachers, all female, play preference with the pretty, sweet things and don't manage the energy of the boys, including my son. He gets punished for being a boy in my experience.

They days I tend not to focus on single gender issues, as I see things in a more holistic way, rather than a purely feminist POV. I see that women are often disadvantaged in the workforce and economically, and that men really struggle with emotional isolation and vulnerability. I think that more gender equality has been great for women, but has left a lot of men struggling to know what their role and purpose is in life. I see that women have gained equality in good and bad things, including the ability to abuse power that they have as equally along with men. I see that despite the move towards equality, women are still predominately judged on their sexual appeal, and highly objectified in the media in a way that demeans their status in society.

I'd really like the focus to shift away from women's rights, or gay rights, or racial rights to how we can all treat each other, all human beings regardless of gender, with dignity and respect that is due to us just because we are all people.

That being said, I think its important that we know the history to 'how we got here' and 'from whence we came' to understand sensitivities of women around issues such as, dare I say it, reproduction, given how incredibly limited their power has been around this in the past.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:12 PM

Magons: You are slightly incorrect, in that women's right to vote existed on a state level before the 19th amendment. Utah surprisingly was the first state to allow it.

I agree with your second post.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:13 PM

"pre-wwii, abortion was not often address, and yet people were concerned about women's rights."

DO you mean, abortion was not an issue? I think it was, just that it was not widely available, and usually only performed by backyard abortionists, unless you were rich of course. If you were rich, you could usually obtain one safely.

If you want to find out more about backyard abortions, "Vera Drake" is a surprisingly palatable film about this subject. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0383694/ Set in the 50's in Britian, and based on a true story.

sorry for getting back to the 'A' word. ;)

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:14 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:
What a fracking JOKE! It doesn't even need saying, but I will; what about rape, which doesn't even permit abortion in many states? Wake up, Raptor, you're being even more thick than usual.

Genius, I stated - If you've made the decision to have sex, you've made the decision to deal w/ the consequences.

Unless you've decided to get raped... then I fail to see where your comment even warrants a response.

Name 1 state which doesn't allow abortions for rape victims.

Instead, they just decide to redefine "rape"...

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:16 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Magons: You are slightly incorrect, in that women's right to vote existed on a state level before the 19th amendment. Utah surprisingly was the first state to allow it.

I agree with your second post.

I stand corrected, Byte.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:

Kwicko: First I'm being called rape enabler, woman killer, and child murderer, now I'm being conflated with people who would refuse rights to some portion of the human population, and being called naive for wanting to believe that there is a such thing as human decency and respect.

I was bewildered, and now I'm just starting to become angry. Both of these threads were broken before they were started. And if I'm just going to get caught in the cross-fire, I see no reason for me to participate in either.

You're certainly not being called any of those things by ME, Byte.

A discussion came up of what "rights" are, and from whence they derive. Signy used a cudgel to try to drive home a point, instead of using finesse. It happens to all of us at times.

I'm curious as to where people think "rights" come from. God? Governments? Nature?

As to women voting, I agree with you that it was largely this seemingly-simple act that in effect made women "people", in the eyes of the law and the government. I would advise you - as I have before - not to waste or squander that which was so hard won. Even if your act of protest is the mere act of writing in "V" or "Pyotr Kropotkin" on a ballot, let your voice be heard. Even if no one will hear, even when nobody will listen, let your voice be heard. In a democracy, your most important, your most powerful weapon, is your voice. More than a press, more than a gun, your voice is the blade that slays the most fearsome of dragons.

To refuse to use it, to refuse to even try... that just strikes me as giving up without a fight, of being afraid even to believe in a chance.

I can't make you vote. You're free not to. But as the song says, "If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:35 PM

Where they come from is a social contract, usually with some tie in to cultural norms and provide some basis for allowing the population to meet some standard of quality of life.

Which is why rights are important to me. I know that our system is horribly uneven in how it distributes rights, and that's something I'd like to change. But I think they're important because even if some have the power to completely ignore those rights, I think rights do still provide at least some protection... Or they should, at any rate. And without them, I see abuse as all but guaranteed.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:39 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

DREAMTROVE: My daughter was born "mentally defective", if only because of a birth accident, She would not survive a eugenics program either.

And you are still mistaking voluntary abortion for eugenics.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:45 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

BYTE: There are no such things as "rights". "Rights" are as variable as the society which dreams them up. At one time, if you were a warrior, it was your "right" to take slaves. At one time, if you were an Indian lord, it was your "right" to have your wife (or wives) die on your funeral pyre.

Since "rights" are whatever we define them to be. clearly it is no good thinking about them as if we can point to them and say See, there they are!. They are not "real", like a stone or water which we can all see and agree is present.

I have no problem with the ideals of fairness, and I like the idea that people should all have a say in their future. But I am also aware that these are IDEAS, not reality.

Nature has no mercy. There are no "rights" in nature.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:56 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:

And you are still mistaking voluntary abortion for eugenics.

A puzzling confusion that seems to be unique to DT. I've never seen any other anti abortionists take that view re abortion in this day and age.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 3:59 PM

You don't have to be able to touch something or hold something for it to be important, or for it to exist. I measure rights in terms of time spent confined against will, or estimated damages as the result of death, murder, or rape.

Our system actually doesn't do too well on those fronts.

I have to ask, you are still confusing me quite a bit. Where is this coming from, Sig?

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Where they come from is a social contract, usually with some tie in to cultural norms and provide some basis for allowing the population to meet some standard of quality of life.

Which is why rights are important to me. I know that our system is horribly uneven in how it distributes rights, and that's something I'd like to change. But I think they're important because even if some have the power to completely ignore those rights, I think rights do still provide at least some protection... Or they should, at any rate. And without them, I see abuse as all but guaranteed.

Thank you. As usual, while we seem to be knocking heads and arguing, we're actually agreeing. Our "social contract" is our Constitution; it lays out for us what our mutually agreed-upon "rights" are, and more importantly, what our mutually agreed-upon government's rights AREN'T (what they ARE NOT allowed to do to us).

And yes, I don't give up any of them without one hell of a fight. I'll never need an abortion in my life. But I'll fight for YOUR right to have access to the procedure should the need arise. And I'll fight just as strongly for your right to not be FORCED to have one, too.

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:02 PM

Kwicko: I would agree with that.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:19 PM

Byte: I also think that's generally what Signy was trying to say, but ran out of patience. What we call our "rights" are simply ideals, written out and codified into law. We have the "rights" that we fight for, and only the ones we can actually WIN from those in power. When I was growing up, kids not much older than me were being sent to fight and die in a place called Vietnam. The average age of the combat soldier there was 19. Those kids could be conscripted into service by law, but by law were not allowed to vote on whether that should be legal. By the time I was 18, I had the RIGHT - which others had fought for in a long, arduous struggle - to vote. I've rarely forgotten what they did in order for me to be allowed to vote.

Now, once again, we have those in power who would do everything they can in order to make it HARDER for you to vote. You only have one voice with which to tell them "HELL NO!"

"Although it is not true that all conservatives are stupid people, it is true that most stupid people are conservatives." - John Stuart Mill

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:50 PM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Didn't run out of patience, just time.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 4:58 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Didn't run out of patience, just time.

My apologies.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:03 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

"And I'm trying to figure out where Rappy thinks having legal access to abortion services is making others "PAY" for their choices."

And I'm trying to figure out where incest, rape, forced marriages and pregnancy are choices - or where birth control failure is a choice, either.

But then, no one ever accused Rappy of being very bright, so maybe I should not waste a whole lot of time wondering about his stupidity.

BTW - I had what to me is a funny idea - Rappy, caught between his zeal for government to 'responsibly' default, and personal financial Armageddon. I'm betting that while on the one hand he's braying publicly that it's a good thing, on the other he's privately shorting the market and shitting his pants.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 6:09 PM

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

Niki

A fetus is a parasite until it can survive on its own. That we value it b/c it's a proto-human figures into my scenario - 'now for whatever reason society values this parasite - ... in any case society wants it alive - not for your benefit but for their generic one'. Society 'feels' it has a right to make a woman's medical decisions about that parasite because for reasons it 'feels' are valid it 'feels' that parasite has more value than the woman's freedoms.

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Thursday, July 21, 2011 7:16 PM