REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Occupy Black Friday

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Sunday, November 27, 2011 21:21
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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:21 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


We will be participating in this:
Quote:

Occupy protesters want shoppers to occupy something besides door-buster sales and crowded mall parking lots on Black Friday.

Some don't want people to shop at all. Others just want to divert shoppers from big chains and giant shopping malls to local mom-and-pops. And while the actions don't appear coordinated, they have similar themes: supporting small businesses while criticizing the day's dedication to conspicuous consumption and the shopping frenzy that fuels big corporations.

Nearly each one promises some kind of surprise action on the day after Thanksgiving, the traditional start of the holiday shopping season.

In Seattle, protesters are carpooling to Wal-Mart stores to protest with other Occupy groups from around Washington state. Washington, D.C., is offering a "really, really free market," where people can donate items they don't want so others can go gift shopping for free.

Others plan to hit the mall, but not for shopping. The 75-person encampment in Boise, Idaho, will send "consumer zombies" to wander around in silent protest of what they view as unnecessary spending. In Chicago, protesters will serenade shoppers with revamped Christmas carols about buying local. The Des Moines, Iowa, group plans flash mobs at three malls in an attempt to get people to think about what they're buying.

"We didn't want to guilt-trip people at a mall," said Occupy Des Moines organizer Ed Fallon. "We wanted to get at them in a playful, friendly way, to support local businesses." http://www.boston.com/news/nation/articles/2011/11/23/occupy_protests_
shop_mom_and_pop_on_black_friday/

I don't expect it to have much impact, given the incredible gluttony of Black Friday, with some places opening at 12:01 and people camping out to buy things they might well otherwise not buy, simply because it's a "sale" (what a mindlessly consumeristic society we are! Camping out for a WEEK to be first at Black Friday, or trampling salespeople...!).

Our version here in Marin is ot to protest or go to malls, but to talk to individual store owners about how we can help them--for one thing, encourage the use of cash (or at least ATM cards) instead of credit cards WITHOUT them being connected to the Occupy movement (such as giving small credits for using them), and other ways we can help increase the spending in town rather than at the big-box stores and the big mall stores. And, of course, demonstrating.

Our downtown has changed amazingly in the past few years. Stores which had been here for twenty years or more have vanished, and numerous buildings stand empty. There is a movement afoot to try and stop the proposed addition of a Target here in town--there is one just a couple of miles up the road in Novato, and it will hurt not only local stores, but grocery stores in the area.

There will be a demonstration, of course, but WE're looking at ways to HELP people shop locally, rather than protesting at the malls and big chain stores. As alwalys with Occupy, each small contingent has to decide how they're going to approach every nationally-called movement.

Personally, I think zombies are a ridiculous way to approach the concept.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:51 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Maybe Occupy should team up with American Express in their "Shop Small" promotion on Saturday, and suggest that folks buy at small local businesses.

Quote:


Small business is big stuff in holiday campaigns

Talk about your good timing.

A small-business holiday-shopping campaign led by American Express (NYSE: AXP) is peaking just as a new survey says Americans have the warm fuzzies for local mom and pop shops.

The promotional campaign, Small Business Saturday, is aimed at supporting small businesses on one of the busiest shopping days of the year: the Saturday after Thanksgiving. American Express is offering in-store promotional signs, online marketing materials, and $100 in free Facebook ads (while they last) to certain participating retailers. And top sponsor FedEx (NYSE:FDX) is giving away 30,000 “Shop Small” American Express gift cards worth $25 each as part of the promotion.



http://www.forbes.com/sites/sageworks/2011/11/23/small-business-is-big
-stuff-in-holiday-campaigns
/


BTW, the reason folks shop at the big box stores rather than the mom&pops on Main street is because they can get the same stuff for less and stretch their money farther. Seems reasonable in this economy.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Me, I am staying home - strikes me as they WANT chaos and carnage, they WANT destruction and misery and scandal, and I will have none of it.

This is trolling, is what it is, tossing out a few measly items to a huge crowd just to watch them brawl over it is sociopathic, and I don't care much for folks who play along, neither.

Besides, imma good enough bargain hunter to give this one a miss, or even exploit the fact that everyones attention is diverted any do something else entirely.

-F

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 8:21 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Fremdfirma:

Me, I am staying home - strikes me as they WANT chaos and carnage, they WANT destruction and misery and scandal, and I will have none of it.



Yep. Too many folks for me anyway.

Might go out Friday and Shop Small at a couple of local gun shops. Is a .223 small enough?

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 11:27 AM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by Geezer:
Might go out Friday and Shop Small at a couple of local gun shops. Is a .223 small enough?

Makes me wanna give you a big hug.





-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:29 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Yes, Geezer, what you said all of us know. But if people took a long view of the matter, they'd see that in the end, it doesn't save them money. There are a bunch of studies at http://www.newrules.org/retail/key-studies-walmart-and-bigbox-retail which show why.
Quote:

•Economic Impact of Local Businesses vs. Chains
Studies have found that locally owned stores generate much greater benefits for the local economy than national chains.

•Retail Employment
These studies examine whether the arrival of a superstore increases or decreases the number of retail jobs in the region. {Hint: they decrease them. N.]

•Wages & Benefits
Studies have found that big-box retailers, particularly Wal-Mart, are depressing wages and benefits for retail employees.

•Existing Businesses
These studies look at how the arrival of a big-box retailer displaces sales at existing businesses, which must then downsize or close. This results in job losses and declining tax revenue, which some of these studies quantify.

•Poverty Rates
Counties that have gained Wal-Mart stores have fared worse in terms of family poverty rates, according to this study.

•Social and Civic Well-Being
This study found that Wal-Mart reduces a community's level of social capital, as measured by voter turnout and the number of active community organizations.

•City Costs
These studies compare the municipal tax benefits of big-box development with the cost of providing these stores with city services, such as road maintenance, police and fire—finding that cities do not always come out ahead.

•State Costs
Because many of their employees do not earn enough to make ends meet, states are reporting high costs associated with providing healthcare (Medicaid) and other public assistance to big-box employees.

•Subsidies
The expansion of big-box retailers has been financed in part by massive development subsidies and tax advantages provided by local and state governments. These studies document those subsidies and their failure to produce real economic benefits for communities.

•Consumers & Prices
Are chains better for consumers?

•Traffic
How do vehicle miles traveled and trips increase as a result of big box developments?

•Charitable Contributions
Small businesses donate about twice as much per employee to charitable organizations as large businesses, according to this study

I'll leave it to anyone interested to check out the studies in detail.

I wouldn't be caught dead out there on Black Friday either, Frem. Aside from the objections you listed, there's the fact that, from what I've heard others say, people end up buying things they don't need "'cuz it was on SALE!" No thanx.

One of the things I am proud of is that, although we've got Target, Costco, etc., there are NO Wal-Marts in Marin. They wanted to build one here in 2009, but were stopped. The only ones even near us are in Richmond and Rohnert Park. Richmond is a VERY depressed economy, and numerous cities North of us (like Novato and Rohnert Park) used to be so hungry for tax revenues they let ANYONE in...and are now regretting it. I don't like the big chains, but in my opinion Wal-Mart is the single WORST in how it treats its employees, among other things. Not that the others are much better.



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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 12:39 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

Do people really buy something only because it is on sale?

I don't think I've ever purchased something that I didn't want to own. Sometimes a sale will affect when I buy it. (I can't afford it at 300 dollars, but I can afford it at 200 dollars.) But I have never seen something on sale, and based on the discount alone, decided to buy it.

For instance, if I saw a 500 dollar shoe on sale for 100 dollars, and I was not in the market for shoes, I would not be likely to purchase it. (Not that I go around coveting 500 dollar clothing anyhow.)

But you are suggesting that someone who does not want a shoe may see the shoe on sale and buy it on that basis alone?

That is strange to me.

--Anthony

_______________________________________________

"In every war, the state enacts a tax of freedom upon the citizenry. The unspoken promise is that the tax shall be revoked at war's end. Endless war holds no such promise. Hence, Eternal War is Eternal Slavery." --Admiral Robert J. Henner


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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:02 PM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Oh gawd, Anthony, people do it all the time. It happens all the time, but especially on Black Friday. Particularly at places like Costco, etc., where supposedly stuff is MUCH cheaper than elsewhere (which, by the way, isn't necessarily true either), people end up buying stuff they never came to buy, didn't need, or only needed "one" of, because they feel like they're getting something for nothing.
Quote:

There is a psychological aspect to sales that even the thriftiest shoppers must learn to overcome. Here are three psychological ways that sales make a compelling case for consumers to buy, and how consumers can think about whether to buy something more logically. (The institutional sector offers an intellectual and financially rewarding alternative.

•Buy One, Get One Discounts

"Buy one, get one" promotions, also known as BOGO deals, offer varying discounts as long as items are purchased in groups of two. The phrase seems most attractive when followed by "free," but it frequently simply applies a 50% discount to the items purchased.

Buy one, get one discounts can be useful for products you frequently consume. However, the allure of a discount or receiving something "free" can persuade you to buy a greater quantity than you need.

•The Real Deal: If you have to spend, then you are not getting anything for free. Aside from requiring you to spend, the discount always applies to the item of equal or lesser value. So, in order to feel like you are saving the greatest amount of money, theoretically you should pick two items that are relatively expensive and have very close prices. Even though this scenario can save you the most, it can require you to spend the most. (Find out how average investors are breaking into what was once reserved for the ultra rich, in Hedge Funds Go Retail.)

•Setting the Limit

Some sale prices are valid only for a limited number of items purchased. For instance, a certain brand of cookies may be on sale with the words "Limit six items per customer" underneath the sale price. Without the mention of six, buying six bags at once probably would not have crossed the average person's mind.

•The Real Deal: Setting a limit can make customers feel as if they are not maximizing the discount unless they buy up to the limit. In this case, you should ask yourself if you really need six bags of cookies and if they were not on sale would you buy them anyway. This is particularly important when dealing with perishable food items. After all, what good is a sale if you end up buying something that spoils before you can consume it?

•Spend This Much, Save This Many Coupons

These coupons are frequently advertised with tag lines such as "the more money you spend, the more money you save." For example, a "spend $50 get $10 off" coupon would allow you to purchase $50 worth of products for $40, representing a 20% discount.

Some stores offer these discounts in staggered amounts, for example, the next increment from the previous example could likely be "spend $100, get $20 off." If you spend exactly $100, then the discount is still 20%.

•The Real Deal: The more money you spend, the more money you spend. In this case, the percentage discount maxes out at 20. The moment you cross over a $50 increment, the percentage discount actually decreases, until you reach the next increment. Reaching the next increment requires you to spend more money.

This could be a good deal if you were originally planning to visit the store and spend at least $50. However, if the coupon was your only motivation to go to the store, then you will not save a penny. (Learn to spot a rotten investment before you get seduced by its sweet promise of profit, in Are Structured Retail Products Too Good To Be True?) http://financialedge.investopedia.com/financial-edge/0410/Attention-Di
scount-Shoppers-Dont-Buy-Just-Because-Its-On-Sale.aspx#axzz1eZUNfiov

and
Quote:

Buying Stuff You Didn’t Originally Come To Get

If you stay too long in a certain store, especially a department store like Target and Walmart, you’ll get caught up in the frenzy of everyone grabbing stuff, and you’ll end up putting things in your cart that you don’t need and didn’t come for originally. I am so amazed at some of the stuff that people have in their cart on Black Friday. They just buy, because it’s on sale, regardless if they need it or not. Don’t fall into this trap.

Don’t get caught up in the frenzy

This dovetails off the last one. There’s a reason retailers love Black Friday; the hype and enthusiasm of the day causes a lot of people not to think straight. They buy crap they don’t want or need just because it’s a “deal.” If you’re an impulsive buyer or you fall to the temptation of overspending easily, then you should probably wait to do your shopping until the crowds die down after the weekend. http://www.moneycrashers.com/black-friday-deals-shopping-pitfalls-avoi
d/
]



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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:16 PM

CANTTAKESKY


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Do people really buy something only because it is on sale?

Ooooohh yes.

My mom does it. I do it myself. I have a good friend who does it religiously. It is almost an OCD with her. She ends up with a lot of stuff she doesn't REALLY want, so she gives them away as Christmas gifts. Sometimes, she will resell good deals on eBay, such as those hypothetical $500 shoes purchased for $100.

For me, though, it has to be a REALLY good sale (free or close to free) for me to buy something that I don't really need or want. For example, I'll download free MP3s from Amazon or iTunes even if I probably would never listen to it more than that one time. Several weeks ago, I spent 99 cents to buy an album called 99 Most Essential Mozart Masterpieces. I still haven't listened to it yet. I couldn't help it. It's Mozart, and each piece was only 1 cent.

Maybe it's pathological. But so far, I haven't needed an intervention for the addiction. ;)



-----
Never be deceived that the rich will allow you to vote away their wealth. -- Lucy Parsons (1853-1942, labor activist and anarcho-communist)

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 1:24 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



There's one store that'll be opening up its doors at 12am, and in the parking lot, they'll be showing Harry Potter movies, for all to enjoy.

Hey, I'm all for the free market, and who knows, I may have to get involved in that mess, but I'll try to avoid it. Sure would suck to work for those folks though. Hope they love their job.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 4:36 PM

FREMDFIRMA



You don't know hell till you've worked the Toys R Us return counter the day after Xmas...

Anyhows, I have mental lists of (need/want/could be useful) and a trick memory good enough to include an apalling amount of items on them, you see.

About the only time I'll buy something JUST case it's "on sale" is Anime via third-line suppliers when it's retail/collection price is like a hundred bucks or more and I can nail it down for twenty.
Sometimes you find the most amazing stuff that way, though, I didn't expect to like Chevalier D'Eon nearly as much as I did, and the resale/collector value of it has doubled since I bought it.

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 6:07 PM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
I'll leave it to anyone interested to check out the studies in detail.



All it took was the first one listed, by 'The Urban Conservancy in partnership with Civic Economics'. Sorry, but they started with the premise that small local shops are better than big box, and appear to have selected the information that would support their premise. Based on the site that all these studies are listed on, and considering that about half of them are done by Civic Economics, I expect the same lack of objectivity throughout. if you can find some data from a reasonably disinterested party...

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Wednesday, November 23, 2011 7:39 PM

HERO


I think if they try to get between people and Best Buy or Walmart on Friday...then the WallStreeters will wish they had cops protecting them.

Being sprayed with pepper spray will seem much better after being beaten senseless by an angry momma in search of a doorbuster deal.

H

"Hero. I have come to respect you." "I am forced to agree with Hero here."- Chrisisall, 2009.
"I agree with Hero." Niki2, 2011.

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:51 AM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Do people really buy something only because it is on sale?

I don't think I've ever purchased something that I didn't want to own. Sometimes a sale will affect when I buy it. (I can't afford it at 300 dollars, but I can afford it at 200 dollars.) But I have never seen something on sale, and based on the discount alone, decided to buy it.

For instance, if I saw a 500 dollar shoe on sale for 100 dollars, and I was not in the market for shoes, I would not be likely to purchase it. (Not that I go around coveting 500 dollar clothing anyhow.)

But you are suggesting that someone who does not want a shoe may see the shoe on sale and buy it on that basis alone?

That is strange to me.

--Anthony






I went into Ikea recently and came home with a whole load of stuff I never even knew existed, all named sven and bvorska with dots over the 'o's. I only went in for some book shelf extenders.

Damn those swedes.


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Thursday, November 24, 2011 2:33 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by AnthonyT:
Hello,

Do people really buy something only because it is on sale?



My old XBox has been acting up. Minimum cost to get it fixed is about $ 100, plus the time it takes to ship it, have it worked on, and returned.... easily 10 days. Just got a deal on the updated version of the console, 2x's the memory, + 2 games and all the gear, for $ 199. Toss in the extended warranty. I'd call that a win.



"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 6:18 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Planned obsolescence at its best. Go America!



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Thursday, November 24, 2011 8:57 AM

GEEZER

Keep the Shiny side up


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
Planned obsolescence at its best. Go America!



Or Go China! since the Xbox was made there. Production of the original Xbox started in 2001 and ended in late 2006, so any out there are 5 to 10 years old. pretty old for consumer electronics, considering the rapid advance of the technology.

"Keep the Shiny side up"

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Thursday, November 24, 2011 12:32 PM

FREMDFIRMA



Not to mention seriously crummy design...

S'funny tho, locally we have what you'd call a triumph of the free market - there's this trio of local yahoos who I swear look almost IDENTICAL to the "Lone Gunmen" from X-files, and they'll repair your Xbox360 for fifty bucks, no matter what's wrong with it, very profitable for them cause nine times outta ten it's a minor problem.

They've got no website, no corporate office, just a couple dudes operating out of the back of a farmers market, but I must admit they know their biz, having sat there and watched them a bit - and yes, they'll do it while you wait, instead of shipping a unit off to heavens know where and chasing email and phone calls back and forth, you just drive over there, hand em your box and the cash, and they fix it and hand it back.

These days warranties ain't worth the paper they're printed on, but these guys, their word is good, solid, neh ?

As far as crummy design goes, that ain't limited to MicroShitheads neither, the original PS2 units used this crummyass laser and it would regularly go out of alignment - mind you, if you had the skills you COULD open it up, fiddle with it, and get it working again for a month or two, but eventually the whole assembly would go to shit so the unit was prettymuch doomed off the assembly line - I've killed many of them in my time.

My ex has gotten around that problem by borrowing my PS3 original issue "prototype" box, the one with ACTUAL hardware compliance backward compatibility for PS1 and PS2, as well as other functions no currently available PS3 model has - so it ain't that they CAN'T build better, it's that they WON'T, cause the price break between that unit and the pathetic imitations Sony sells now is microscopic - well, the retail price break, but boy howdy try GETTIN one of them original units now for less than a grand.

FYI, that model of PS3 is the only one that can play Final Fantasy XI Online, which given the abysmal FAILURE of FF14 Online, and the advancing age and eventual phaseout of the PS2, allows her to continue the game she likes for the forseeable future.

Games these days kinda suck anyways, pretty graphics, neat physics engines, but no novelty, originality... and really, less fun.

Which is why I have a buttload of consoles and emulators - lately been playing Ogre Battle on the SNES, and they just don't make em like they used to, do they ?

-Frem

I do not serve the Blind God.

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Friday, November 25, 2011 4:04 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I drove by one of the stores , having their midnight black Friday nonsense... unbelievable. At 10:30pm, the line was at least 200 yards long,probably longer. And there were more folks filing in, to stand at the very end of that very long line.

( Made me think, this is what we can expect to see with healthcare in the US, should OCare not be struck down, or not repealed. )

Glad I snagged that deal online when I did. I was comfy and warm in bed, while those saps were still waiting to get in the store.





"The world is a dangerous place. Not because of the people who are evil; but because of the people who don't do anything about it." - Albert Einstein

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Friday, November 25, 2011 5:26 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I saw a news report on a guy and some friends who had CAMPED OUT for SIX DAYS before Black Friday's opening! I would say "totally insane", except I'll bet it was a tradition for him and his buddies and they had fun. To each his own! I've got a two-hour stint of demonstrating to do this afternoon--with camp chair, 'cuz I can't walk or stand... That's it for me on Black Friday...normally we don't even leave the house. Leave the insanity to the insane, I say!



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Friday, November 25, 2011 6:09 AM

FREMDFIRMA



This *SO* ties in with the Trickle-Down-Tyranny thread, but applies here as well.

Walmart Pepper Spray: Woman Injures 20 Shoppers Waiting For Black Friday Deals At Los Angeles Store
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/11/25/walmart-pepper-spray-black-fr
iday_n_1112548.html


Just a food product neh ?
Gotta love the double-standard of our feudal society...

-F

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Friday, November 25, 2011 6:13 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


Ahh, you caught that one, too, eh Frem? I posted it in the "Pepper Spray" thread...had to think a bit to figure out where it belonged, 'cuz it doesn't deserve its own thread. You're right, too; this is what happens to people when tyrany becomes the norm of the day, unfortunately. Bet it's not the last time we hear of its use...



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Sunday, November 27, 2011 9:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


That's so cool about the guys who repair X boxes at the farmers' market Frem.

Black Friday scares me. People turn into savages, its like Lord of the Flies. I love that movie but still, just not okay, especially over something so cosmically insignificant. A couple of years ago I heard a horrible story about something that happened on black Friday and it made me very sad and still does.

On the upside Kohl's used a spoof on the Rebecca Black Friday song for their black Friday adverts, I hope Rebecca got paid well for the use of her song.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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