REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

Sandy Versus Katrina

POSTED BY: KPO
UPDATED: Monday, November 5, 2012 11:49
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Monday, November 5, 2012 12:54 AM

KPO

Sometimes you own the libs. Sometimes, the libs own you.


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/opinion/krugman-sandy-versus-katrina
.html?smid=tw-NytimesKrugman&seid=auto


Quote:


As Sandy barreled toward New Jersey, there were hopeful mutters on the right to the effect that it might become President Obama’s Katrina, with voters blaming him for the damage, and that this might matter on Tuesday. Sorry, guys: polls show overwhelming approval for Mr. Obama’s handling of the storm, and a significant rise in his overall favorability ratings.

And he deserves the bump. For the response to Sandy, like the success of the auto bailout, is a demonstration that Mr. Obama’s philosophy of government — which holds that the government can and should provide crucial aid in times of crisis — works. And conversely, the contrast between Sandy and Katrina demonstrates that leaders who hold government in contempt cannot provide that aid when it is needed.

So, about that response: Much of the greater New York area (including my house) is still without power; gasoline is scarce; and some outlying areas are feeling neglected. Right-wing news media are portraying these continuing difficulties as a disaster comparable to, nay greater than, the aftermath of Katrina. But there’s really no comparison.

I could do a point-by-point — and it’s definitely worth it, if you’re curious, to revisit the 2005 Katrina timeline to get a sense of just how bad the response really was. But for me the difference is summed up in two images. One is the nightmare at the New Orleans convention center, where thousands were stranded for days amid inconceivable squalor, an outrage that all of America watched live on TV, but to which top officials seemed oblivious. The other is the scene in flooded Hoboken, with the National Guard moving in the day after the storm struck to deliver food and water and rescue stranded residents.

The point is that after Katrina the government seemed to have no idea what it was doing; this time it did. And that’s no accident: the federal government’s ability to respond effectively to disaster always collapses when antigovernment Republicans hold the White House, and always recovers when Democrats take it back.

Consider, in particular, the history of the Federal Emergency Management Agency.

Under President George H. W. Bush, FEMA became a dumping ground for unqualified political hacks. Faced with a major test in the form of Hurricane Andrew in 1992, the agency failed completely.

Then Bill Clinton came in, put FEMA under professional management, and saw the agency’s reputation restored.

Given this experience, you might have expected George W. Bush to preserve Mr. Clinton’s gains. But no: he appointed his campaign manager, Joe Allbaugh, to head the agency, and Mr. Allbaugh immediately signaled his intention both to devolve disaster relief to the state and local level and to downgrade the whole effort, declaring, “Expectations of when the federal government should be involved and the degree of involvement may have ballooned beyond what is an appropriate level.” After Mr. Allbaugh left for the private sector, he was replaced with Michael “heckuva job” Brown, and the rest is history.

Like Mr. Clinton, President Obama restored FEMA’s professionalism, effectiveness, and reputation. But would Mitt Romney destroy the agency again? Yes, he would. As everyone now knows — despite the Romney campaign’s efforts to Etch A Sketch the issue away — during the primary Mr. Romney used language almost identical to Mr. Allbaugh’s, declaring that disaster relief should be turned back to the states and to the private sector.

The best line on this, I have to admit, comes from Stephen Colbert: “Who better to respond to what’s going on inside its own borders than the state whose infrastructure has just been swept out to sea?”

Look, Republicans love to quote Ronald Reagan’s old joke that the most dangerous words you can hear are “I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” Of course they’ll do their best, whenever they’re in power, to destroy an agency whose job is to say exactly that. And yes, it’s hypocritical that the right-wing news media are now attacking Mr. Obama for, they say, not helping enough people.

Back to the politics. Some Republicans have already started using Sandy as an excuse for a possible Romney defeat. It’s a weak argument: state-level polls have been signaling a clear and perhaps widening Obama advantage for weeks. But as I said, to the extent that the storm helps Mr. Obama, it’s well deserved.

The fact is that if Mr. Romney had been president these past four years the federal response to disasters of all kinds would have been far weaker than it was. There would have been no auto bailout, because Mr. Romney opposed the federal financing that was crucial to the rescue. And FEMA would have remained mired in Bush-era incompetence.

So this storm probably won’t swing the election — but if it does, it will do so for very good reasons.


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Monday, November 5, 2012 12:59 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



It's all in how the media is portraying the 2 events.

Bush had assets on hand, ready BEFORE Katrina moved in, and Gov Blanco balked, denying the Fed govt access.

Then, stories began to come out, which were exaggerated, amplified, and down right fabricated, to make Bush look all that much worse.

The media want Obama to win, so they're painting him in a favorable light.

Also, Katrina was a much stronger storm, and New Orleans,being below sea level, still fared pretty well, until the levees broke.

Bush was blamed for that as well.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, November 5, 2012 6:49 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Bush had assets on hand, ready BEFORE Katrina moved in, and Gov Blanco balked, denying the Fed govt access.

But if you and your spokepeople don't repeatedly get a detail like that out to the general public then you reap what you didn't sow.

Quote:

Then, stories began to come out, which were exaggerated, amplified, and down right fabricated, to make Bush look all that much worse.
Once the shit hit the fan, it would be very hard to convince me that anything shown on live tv was amplified or fabricated.

Quote:

Also, Katrina was a much stronger storm, and New Orleans, being below sea level, still fared pretty well, until the levees broke. Bush was blamed for that as well.

If Bush or anyone who supported Bush hadn't figured out how the media works by the year 2005, they deserve everything they got. If you don't even try to put out a narrative of your own, if you have no interest in defending or explaining anything you do, then there's nothing left for people to believe other than what NBC, CNN, and the NY Times tells them.



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Monday, November 5, 2012 8:00 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I, too, don't believe for a minute that the results of Katrina were "exaggerated, amplified, and down right fabricated, to make Bush look all that much worse". Partisan bullshit. Katrina was worse in almost all ways (check out great charts at http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/04/hurricane-sandy-vs-katrina-in
fographic_n_2072432.html
). One thing to remember is we have nothing but "estimates" for the damage and the cost, so they shouldn't be properly compared until quite some time has passed. Another thing to remember is that Sandy affected OVER TWICE the area Katrina did (1,000 miles as opposed to 450 miles for Katrina). Again, we won't know the actual death or monetary toll until everyone in all those states are accounted for. Given the weather conditions, I fear the death toll from Sandy will rise over coming weeks (then you get into whether Sandy was directly responsible, etc., etc.). The latter will most likely be directly related to the loss of power in Winter weather where Winter weather is significant, which was dramatically different. Peak power outtages in Katrina affected 1,700,000 people; in Sandy, it affected 8,428,078. Power is STILL out in many places, so again: Winter weather.

The loss of life in Katrina will always FAR outweigh that in Sandy, no matter what, and that makes it the more horrific storm--or should--in anyone's opinion. The response has been equally incomparable, for numerous reasons. Tho' many may not have heard, I for one DID hear about Blanco, and never forgot it. The levee point is well taken, but it was still a result of Katrina, so I don't see where that makes any difference. FEMA and the government have also had a number of years to learn from the mistakes of Katrina. While there were "only" 15,000,000 people in its affected areas, Sandy had 17,500,000...not much difference between the two; but while Katrina is considered THUS FAR to have cost over twice what Sandy will ($123 billion as opposed to $60 billion), we have to bear in mind that costs are higher now, while on the other hand, many more expensive homes, etc., may turn out to have been affected by Sandy. Economic numbers don't mean much currently, in my opinion, until they know the entire cost of destruction.

I'm actually surprised by some of the numbers, among them that only three states have been declared disaster areas for Sandy while Katrina had four. The Sandy states are so small and close together, I would have thought there would be more. Which only tells me, for the most part, just how much more damage there was to New Jersey and New York! Tho' I'm not sure what a state being declared a disaster area means and how they calculate it, but given Sandy affected twice the amount of space, I'm leery of the difference between declaring a state a disaster area and what the people who live in that state think.

As to Bush being blamed, that gets the prize for the first HYSTERICAL laugh of the morning, given how our righties here consistently PERSONALLY blame Obama for anything and everything that ever goes wrong! To even MAKE that statement, well,

The fact is both were horrific, both devastated millions of Americans, and they're not really comparable to me, except insofar as the reaction by the government, from state to local to federal, was so vastly different. I'm surprised, from what I've seen, that Katrina's impact was so much worse than Sandy's, but that's no doubt due to the "if it bleeds, it leads" mentality of the media!

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, November 5, 2012 8:22 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Jongs...

Quote:

But if you and your spokepeople don't repeatedly get a detail like that out to the general public then you reap what you didn't sow.


Completely agree. And this is what infuriates the living hell out of me w/ the GOP. They mistakenly think the MSM are actually non-partisan, and that if they put out some info, be it by the WH press release, they naively think the MSM will run with it, and that'll be that. WRONG ! They needed to come out and hammer the issue, over and over again, and defend themselves. But W's Achilles's heel was that he refused to " sell " the WH, and promote what the administration was doing right. He felt it beneath himself to boast about all the good that's being done. From his mindset, it should be taken for granted that the FED Govt was " on the job ", and to further promote that point was just show boating. Which is also why he didn't land at Louis Armstrong, , because he didn't want to take resources away from the search / rescue/ clean up.

Quote:

Once the shit hit the fan, it would be very hard to convince me that anything shown on live tv was amplified or fabricated.


As it's been said many times, folks had ample time to get the hell out of there. Also, NOLA fared pretty well , until the levees broke.

Quote:

If Bush or anyone who supported Bush hadn't figured out how the media works by the year 2005, they deserve everything they got. If you don't even try to put out a narrative of your own,...


Goes back to point #1.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Monday, November 5, 2012 8:24 AM

KWICKO

"We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false." -- William Casey, Reagan's presidential campaign manager & CIA Director (from first staff meeting in 1981)


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


If Bush or anyone who supported Bush hadn't figured out how the media works by the year 2005, they deserve everything they got. If you don't even try to put out a narrative of your own, if you have no interest in defending or explaining anything you do, then there's nothing left for people to believe other than what NBC, CNN, and the NY Times tells them.




Oh, but Dubyd DID try to put out his own narrative. It involved waiting a week, then doing a low-level flyover in Air Force 1, then saying "Heckuva job, Brownie!" while people were still dying and stranded, and then trotting his mom out to tell everyone how living in the Superdome in Houston was a big improvement for "those people".

Republicans are married to the idea that government can never help anyone, and that it should never even try. Democrats are wed to the idea that if a government can't help its people, or at least try, then it isn't doing its job.

The reactions by that government to Sandy and Katrina show that governments will do what they're told by leadership. Bush didn't show any, and Obama did. Shit, even Chris Christie could see that!



"I supported Bush in 2000 and 2004 and intellegence [sic] had very little to do with that decision." - Hero

"I was wrong" - Hero, 2012

Mitt Romney, introducing his running mate: "Join me in welcoming the next President of the United States, Paul Ryan!"

Rappy's response? "You're lying, gullible ( believing in some BS you heard on msnbc ) or hard of hearing."

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Monday, November 5, 2012 9:56 AM

FREMDFIRMA



I am tremendously entertained by Cuomos threats to the utility companies.
ESPECIALLY in light of our ongoing brawl with DTE here since they've stacked the public service commission SUPPOSED to call them to heel, with industry buttkissers - our State Attorney General is still all up in their ass about it.

But that ain't even CLOSE to the salvo Cuomo delivered, not by half.
http://www.governor.ny.gov/press/11012012-ceo-utility-accountability-l
etter

Sheeeeit, he might as well have just said "Or I will seriously put a boot up your ass!", cause that's about what this is.

-Frem

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Monday, November 5, 2012 11:49 AM

JONGSSTRAW


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

Jongs...

Quote:

But if you and your spokepeople don't repeatedly get a detail like that out to the general public then you reap what you didn't sow.


Completely agree. And this is what infuriates the living hell out of me w/ the GOP. They mistakenly think the MSM are actually non-partisan, and that if they put out some info, be it by the WH press release, they naively think the MSM will run with it, and that'll be that. WRONG ! They needed to come out and hammer the issue, over and over again, and defend themselves. But W's Achilles's heel was that he refused to " sell " the WH, and promote what the administration was doing right. He felt it beneath himself to boast about all the good that's being done.



And after Bush's obtuse oblivioness in 2005 we had McCain in 2008 making all the same naive assumptions and media mistakes. And in 2012 we had the RNC let MSNBC host a Republican primary debate. We had Team Romney agree to allow liberals host all four debates. I could go on for pages. Bottom line...nothing has been learned. I'm not infuriated as you say you get, 'cause I gave up on them way back when. I do shake my head a lot and laugh at the absurdities. Not sure if it's the politics or alzheimers.

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