REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

After Sandy: Why We Can’t Keep Rebuilding on the Water’s Edge

POSTED BY: NIKI2
UPDATED: Monday, November 26, 2012 12:53
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VIEWED: 1659
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Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:50 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


This goes along with what we've been discussing, re climate change. Apparently there is more that goes into the disasters in New York and New Jersey than just Sandy.
Quote:

It’s so obvious we forget it: an extreme-weather event becomes a disaster only if it hits where people and their possessions are. Of the 19 tropical storms that were tracked during this summer’s Atlantic hurricane season, 10 veered off harmlessly into the Atlantic Ocean, never making landfall. But when a storm like Sandy tracks over the most heavily populated stretch of land in the western hemisphere, the damage to people and property can be immense. Storm plus people equals natural disaster.



That’s why, as the Northeast begins the long process of rebuilding, we need to think about what we can do to minimize the number of people and the value of the property that might be in the way of the next storm. So far, most of that discussion has settled around the possibility of building multibillion-dollar seawalls and barriers that might be able to shield Manhattan and other vulnerable places from the kind of storm surges that caused so much destruction during Sandy. Seawalls do have their place — especially as the climate warms and seas rise. But if people didn’t live in so many high-risk places, we wouldn’t have to put any protective infrastructure there at all.

The reason so many Americans make their homes in storm and flood zones is partly because we simply like living along the water. But the other part is that government-subsidized flood insurance essentially eliminates the financial risk. The question now, after Sandy, is whether we’ll keep making the same circular mistake, paying billions to put people back in harm’s way, or whether we’ll instead say, “Build if you want, but the risk is all yours.”

The Northeast spots that were most heavily damaged by Sandy were in housing developments that were built very close to the coast. Those same areas had seen dramatic development over the past couple of decades, despite the fact that government officials knew that the coastal land would be vulnerable to flooding from a major storm.
Quote:

Authorities in New York and New Jersey simply allowed heavy development of at-risk coastal areas to continue largely unabated in recent decades, even as the potential for a massive storm surge in the region became increasingly clear.

In the end, a pell-mell, decades-long rush to throw up housing and businesses along fragile and vulnerable coastlines trumped commonsense concerns about the wisdom of placing hundreds of thousands of closely huddled people in the path of potential cataclysms.


Nearly a quarter of the world’s population lives less than 328 ft. (100 m) above sea level and within 60 miles (97 km) of the coast. But Ocean County’s population rose nearly 70% from 1980 to 2010, and in that final year alone, more residential building permits were issued in that county than in any other in New Jersey. In New York as well, hundreds of new structures have gone up in the high-risk storm-surge area of Staten Island.

In the past, those who made the choice to live near the ocean also knew to treat its immense power with respect, even building their homes facing the land. Today we’re much more reckless, and an ocean view is worth paying extra for.

The federal government is bound not just by elective policy but also by law to pay for most of the cost of fixing storm-damaged infrastructure — including homes. Add in the National Flood Insurance Program, which offers consumers in coastal danger zones below-market protection from floods, and you can see how the federal government is almost making it easier to live in a danger zone than to make the hard choice of relocating:
Quote:

Across the nation, tens of billions of tax dollars have been spent on subsidizing coastal reconstruction in the aftermath of storms, usually with little consideration of whether it actually makes sense to keep rebuilding in disaster-prone areas. If history is any guide, a large fraction of the federal money allotted to New York, New Jersey and other states recovering from Hurricane Sandy — an amount that could exceed $30 billion — will be used the same way.

Tax money will go toward putting things back as they were, essentially duplicating the vulnerability that existed before the hurricane.


If subsidized flood insurance is no longer a given, we might also begin to see a slowdown in coastal population growth. That’s long overdue. We can try to reduce climate change and we can try to build physical protections for established coastal population centers. But the best way to ensure that the next Sandy does less damage is simply to keep people out of harm’s way — or at least make it more expensive to stay there.Excerpts from http://science.time.com/2012/11/20/after-sandy-why-we-cant-keep-rebuil
ding-on-the-waters-edge/


I despair of logical steps like this being taken any time soon, but I wish they were; it's time to at least look forward to the coming difficulties of climate change, given there is little chance of changing the inevitable.

How many more Katrinas and Sandys will it take before common sense begins to prevail? And even when it does, how long will the battle be to fight the monied interests who don't WANT common sense to drive our decisions?

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 9:44 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



*sigh*


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:01 AM

HERO


It's amazing how people never.iived near the water until modern times.

There were also never any storms.

H

Hero...must be right on all of this. ALL of the rest of us are wrong. Chrisisall, 2012

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 10:09 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


I just cringe at the spectacle of seemingly normal, clear thinking folks who inexplicably turn their brains off and succumb to such fairy tales, religious dogma or superstitions.




" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 11:39 AM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


The problem is that the places most damaged were New York City, one of the most densely populated places in America; and the East Coast Metropolitan sprawl, from Boston to Wash DC. Ain't nobody gonna move away from there, ain't nobody gonna abandon it, for economic reasons, let alone cultural and historical.

In the long run, it would be good to diversify power, influence, wealth, etc.; move it inland, to a place with more room, better climate, and better resources. 'Course, the rivers and ocean would still be an factor, they are still most economical for transportation of the massive ammounts of stuff that must be moved every day.

It might require a generations-long educational and economic program to cause this, to encourage people to move somewhere else.

In the meantime, MONEY MUST BE SPENT, to make the infastructure there more resistant. Floods WILL happen; more hurricanes WILL happen. Dikes, sea walls, flood barriers must be strengthened where they exist; installed where they do not. Power lines must be reinforced, replacements kept in stock, and more emergency personnel trained and on standby.

The hope is that spending will be examined carefully, and money allocated with more thought. We all share an opinion about how likely that is.


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Sunday, November 25, 2012 12:06 PM

JONGSSTRAW


You can't live near the ocean .....Atlantis, Argo, Staten Island, Barbara Streisand

You can't live near a lake .....Ponchetrain Levees, Loch Lomond Monster, Hop Sing in a bad mood

You can't live near a river .....Missouri Valley, Riverboat Casino Sewage, Mutated Muskrats, The Judds

You can't live near a volcano .....Mt. St. Helens, Mt. Kilauea, Lava Lamp Spontaneous Combustions, Shan Yu revelations

You can't live in the plains ..... Tornado Alley, The Rain In Spain, Evangelicals

You can't live in the desert ..... Gila Monsters, Rattlesnakes, Wayne Newton

You can't live in the jungle ..... Anacondas, Tsetse Flies, Tigers, Axl Rose

You can't live near a mountain .....Rockslides, Wildfires, Mudslides, Burning Bushes w/ Booming Voice From Above



Our species just wasn't meant to live at all.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 12:56 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:


Our species just wasn't meant to live at all.




For a great many Lefties, that's exactly the message we're suppose to learn. Humans are MURDERING mother Earth, and need to be taken down a few notches.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:41 PM

WISHIMAY


Being a handygal of sorts and liking to build things, the only real bibble passage that really made any helpful sense was something along the lines of "He who builds his house upon the sand shall be called an idjet and then summarily swept out to sea when it get-eth angry-eth"

Or something along those lines

I still hold that one as pretty truthsome, anyhow...

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:47 PM

NEWOLDBROWNCOAT


Quote:

Originally posted by Jongsstraw:
You can't live near the ocean .....Atlantis, Argo, Staten Island, Barbara Streisand

You can't live near a lake .....Ponchetrain Levees, Loch Lomond Monster, Hop Sing in a bad mood

You can't live near a river .....Missouri Valley, Riverboat Casino Sewage, Mutated Muskrats, The Judds

You can't live near a volcano .....Mt. St. Helens, Mt. Kilauea, Lava Lamp Spontaneous Combustions, Shan Yu revelations

You can't live in the plains ..... Tornado Alley, The Rain In Spain, Evangelicals

You can't live in the desert ..... Gila Monsters, Rattlesnakes, Wayne Newton

You can't live in the jungle ..... Anacondas, Tsetse Flies, Tigers, Axl Rose

You can't live near a mountain .....Rockslides, Wildfires, Mudslides, Burning Bushes w/ Booming Voice From Above






Damn, only place left is in a basement or bomb shelter somewhere.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 1:52 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
How many more Katrinas and Sandys will it take before common sense begins to prevail? And even when it does, how long will the battle be to fight the monied interests who don't WANT common sense to drive our decisions?


Sorry, I find this a little misguided. There is nothing about evolution that says that species "learn" to live safely. Creatures live as they live and some get unlucky and nature stomps on them. Humans are no different. We will always engage in risky behavior. Wishing it otherwise will just make you unhappy.

There are definite steps we can take to protect ourselves, no doubt. I'm certainly not saying we should blindly do nothing - I hope you know me better than that, Niki. But that's not what your post in focusing on.

Jongs has a point - we can never be completely safe. There is no secure "cave" for our common sense to hide us in. Niki - you live in MAJOR danger on the West Coast. So are you gonna "learn" and apply common sense and move to Kansas? Oh wait, there's a drought and an a high danger earthquake zone in Missouri... see?

I think the discussion should be elsewhere, like how *my* insurance rates go up because of houses on beaches, or in flood plains, or on bluffs in earthquake country. Kind of like how I have to pay high health insurance premiums because of other people's weak constitutions, I can't get my coffee without a lid because some morons burned themselves, and I'm not supposed to eat raw cookie dough because 1 in a million (or something) got salmonella. I could go on and on.

Myself, I choose not to give up cookie dough. There's a small chance I'll get sick, but if I give it up there's a 100% chance I'll live the rest of my short little life without something pretty damned good.

Honestly, If I could buy a house on the coast, I would, and I'd enjoy every bit of nice weather I had. I'd take steps, knowing the danger, and I'd expect to pay higher insurance because of the high risk. And I'd be ready to fix shit after every big storm - after spending the storm in a shelter so no one died rescuing my stupid ass.

This is where I could see govt doing a good thing: making sure that people who take risks cover those risks themselves. (You know, unlike the bankers in 2008.) You want to live on the water? Fine, but you got to chip in for funds to preserve the coast and rebuild your stuff after a disaster. You want to live in an earthquake? Ditto.

It'll never be perfect. No one wants the govt policing our kitchens and charging a "she-eats-raw-cookie-dough" fee. Neither does anyone want to give up their entire lives because something bad happened to someone in similar circumstances.

I guess I'm saying - life is risky, and risk vs freedom is a balancing act. Let's not go to extremes out of fear.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 2:00 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:
For a great many Lefties, that's exactly the message we're suppose to learn. Humans are MURDERING mother Earth, and need to be taken down a few notches.





Poor baby. He tries so hard, but this time no one bites.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 3:10 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:
Quote:

Originally posted by Niki2:
How many more Katrinas and Sandys will it take before common sense begins to prevail? And even when it does, how long will the battle be to fight the monied interests who don't WANT common sense to drive our decisions?


Sorry, I find this a little misguided. There is nothing about evolution that says that species "learn" to live safely. Creatures live as they live and some get unlucky and nature stomps on them. Humans are no different. We will always engage in risky behavior. Wishing it otherwise will just make you unhappy.

There are definite steps we can take to protect ourselves, no doubt. I'm certainly not saying we should blindly do nothing - I hope you know me better than that, Niki. But that's not what your post in focusing on.

Jongs has a point - we can never be completely safe. There is no secure "cave" for our common sense to hide us in. Niki - you live in MAJOR danger on the West Coast. So are you gonna "learn" and apply common sense and move to Kansas? Oh wait, there's a drought and an a high danger earthquake zone in Missouri... see?

I think the discussion should be elsewhere, like how *my* insurance rates go up because of houses on beaches, or in flood plains, or on bluffs in earthquake country. Kind of like how I have to pay high health insurance premiums because of other people's weak constitutions, I can't get my coffee without a lid because some morons burned themselves, and I'm not supposed to eat raw cookie dough because 1 in a million (or something) got salmonella. I could go on and on.

Myself, I choose not to give up cookie dough. There's a small chance I'll get sick, but if I give it up there's a 100% chance I'll live the rest of my short little life without something pretty damned good.

Honestly, If I could buy a house on the coast, I would, and I'd enjoy every bit of nice weather I had. I'd take steps, knowing the danger, and I'd expect to pay higher insurance because of the high risk. And I'd be ready to fix shit after every big storm - after spending the storm in a shelter so no one died rescuing my stupid ass.

This is where I could see govt doing a good thing: making sure that people who take risks cover those risks themselves. (You know, unlike the bankers in 2008.) You want to live on the water? Fine, but you got to chip in for funds to preserve the coast and rebuild your stuff after a disaster. You want to live in an earthquake? Ditto.

It'll never be perfect. No one wants the govt policing our kitchens and charging a "she-eats-raw-cookie-dough" fee. Neither does anyone want to give up their entire lives because something bad happened to someone in similar circumstances.

I guess I'm saying - life is risky, and risk vs freedom is a balancing act. Let's not go to extremes out of fear.



There are some areas being declared non habitable zones right here. They are either too risky for bushfires, or too prone to flooding. No one will insure you if you live in these areas, and now you just can't build.

I think there needs to be some co-ordination or leadership from governments about areas that are in major risk zones. The cost of cleaning up and protecting life and property is too great a risk.

Having said that, probably most of this continent should be declared a no go zone for one reason or another. We're moving back to Europe, folks.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 4:05 PM

ANTHONYT

Freedom is Important because People are Important


Hello,

I think it's possible to live in dangerous places (coasts, outer space, other worlds) with the proper planning and investment in appropriate safeguards.

The problem isn't that humans choose to live in dangerous environs. The problem is that humans routinely choose not to invest in the necessary technology, infrastructure, and emergency protocols that would make such life relatively safe.

Rather than simply build elsewhere, we need to build more intelligently and prepare for the inevitable disasters that we know will occur. It is a failure of preparation and a failure to accept the inevitable that kills us, not the raging of our world. One of our greatest gifts is the ability to predict and adapt, but we often ignore this gift in favor of cheap, easy living while betting against inevitability.

In my opinion.

--Anthony


Note to Self:
Raptor - woman testifying about birth control is a slut (the term applies.)
Context: http://tinyurl.com/d6ozfej
Six - Wow, isn't Niki quite the CUNT? And, yes, I spell that in all caps....
http://tinyurl.com/bdjgbpe
Wulf - Niki is a stupid fucking bitch who should hurry up and die.
Context: http://tinyurl.com/afve3r9

“The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget.” -T. S. Szasz

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:24 PM

MAGONSDAUGHTER


Sometimes you have to cut your losses depending upon the level of risk. It is entirely desirable that we do not fill up the entire planet with human habitat.

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Sunday, November 25, 2012 6:25 PM

MAL4PREZ


Quote:

Originally posted by ANTHONYT:
Hello,
The problem isn't that humans choose to live in dangerous environs. The problem is that humans routinely choose not to invest in the necessary technology, infrastructure, and emergency protocols that would make such life relatively safe.


Imagine this: imagine you are an earthquake safety engineer working for the Turkish govt and your job is seismic risk assessment of Istanbul. You use geological data, undersea maps, and your knowledge of the long and well documented seismic history of the North Anatolian Fault Zone (NAFZ).

You can't be confident as to where exactly the western end of the NAFZ runs under the Sea of Marmara to the south of Istanbul, but you do know that it's the only section of the fault which hasn't gone recently, so it's due. [BTW, in the 70s my thesis advisor published an article pointing this out, and pointing out a second section due for a break. That second section was the part near Izmit which broke in 1999 and 17,000 people died in less than a minute.] Perhaps the Marmara Sea section will break all in one piece, perhaps it'll go in two or three smaller separate events. It makes a difference. A big one.

You have a great deal of information about the rock formations and various soils throughout Istanbul, and you are well practiced at predicting the behavior of seismic waves propagating through the region. So you take a few years to build computer models and run them over and over for different scenarios, then you invite a bunch of foreign experts (including one eager, bright-eyed young future Firefly fan) to your beautiful city to hear about your findings.

"If the fault breaks as one," you say as you point at a map, "worse case scenario. *These* sections of the city are on bedrock and will only lose 10-20% of their structures, while *these* areas on loose soil will see 80%-100% destruction of the buildings [You mean 10 story cinder block apt houses with streets so narrow firetrucks can't enter them] and a likely loss of 60% of the population and some !!!! billion dollars of damage."

The bright-eyed American asks: but what are you doing? If you know all this, what are you doing about it?

You, old Turkish man, slouch back and frown and wipe at your thick glasses.

"My dear, since the 1950's, the population of Turkey was grown from [edited to correct:] 1 Million to over 12 Million. More than 600,000 of these cinder block buildings have gone up in a rush during these decades, none of them with any kind of building codes. This is how such buildings tend to handle strong earthquakes:



"What can we do?" you echo the American girl's question, then you shrug. "600,000 buildings. We have little funding and our govt does not tell people how to build. We cannot retrofit so many. We cannot change the system. So we create cartoons telling children how to stop books and dishes from falling off shelves."

(I can't find much online anymore, but the man who told me this was a geophysicist with a cartoon version of his own self known as "Uncle Shaking." He aired spots telling kids how to make their (collapsible) homes safer. After Izmit, he was voted "Sexiest man in Turkey" and yes, I have been kissed by him. On the cheek. The only link I can find with a picture is here: http://thesublimeporte.blogspot.com/2009/08/sexy-geologist.html)

This had to be one of the most eye-opening moments of my life. These people live *every day* with the knowledge of what might happen to their city, one of the greatest and most historical cities in the world, and they can do absolutely nothing about it.

In America, land of the "intrusive" govt, officials make use of these seismic hazard studies and enforce buildings codes in high danger areas, something I'm sure millions of Californians were grateful for in Northridge and Loma Prieta in the 90s. We're not perfect - a bridge or two goes, a fire starts. But the vast majority of buildings stayed upright. *knock on wood*

Imagine a USA where no such precautions are taken because the private companies find it more profitable to use cheap concrete and scrimp on the rebar, and the govt lacks the power to stop them. Sorry to turn political, but that's the world that certain red-tinged people here are fighting for.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 4:59 AM

FREMDFIRMA



Strangely enough, besides my crack-brained love of this state, it was such things which encouraged me to move here, the driving spark of that was a Texan meteorologist way back in 1997/1998 telling me to get the hell off the gulf coast ASAP...

He seemed to be of a mind they were "in for a shellacking" in years to come, and boy howdy was HE right, and prolly ignored and mocked for it, as usual.

Even here in this bastion of geological safety, Mother Nature apparently has her usual unpleasant sense of humor, given that we've had some tornado action in Monroe, a bit south of here, and poor Dexter has been nailed TWICE, one can only presume she has a grudge.

And that's not including the two seperate occasions she winged a lightning bolt at me, but then again maybe that was Zeus, cause he's a terrible shot when drunk and they weren't THAT close, okay, maybe one was...

Anyhows, there's really no such thing as "safe" in that respect - I mean hell if the Yellowstone supervolcano went up, that'd be prettymuch it for the whole blasted country... literally blasted, that is!



Of course, then there's that whole getting clipped by a planetkiller sized chunk of rock, too, even more fun, yes ?

While impossible to prepare for every eventuality, those who prepare for the most likely are usually the ones around buryin the less fortunate.

-Frem

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Monday, November 26, 2012 5:17 AM

NIKI2

Gettin' old, but still a hippie at heart...


I think the point of the article, and which I was hoping to make, was lost on most responders. It wasn't that we should move away from all danger, I'm not stupid enough to think that--I'm kinda surprised some of you thought I WAS. I can see the title was misleading--it was the title of the article and I didn't think about which way it would point people.

The point was that ENCOURAGING building like New York did, without thought to the potentials, and, more importantly, the government making insurance cheaper AND being responsible for rebuilding, is questionable to me.
Quote:

The federal government is bound not just by elective policy but also by law to pay for most of the cost of fixing storm-damaged infrastructure — including homes. Add in the National Flood Insurance Program, which offers consumers in coastal danger zones below-market protection from floods, and you can see how the federal government is almost making it easier to live in a danger zone than to make the hard choice of relocating.

That was the major point: That we're making it too easy for people to build thoughtlessly. I don't know what we do about it, as I wouldn't want the people who suffered devastation like Sandy to be just ignored, but surely underwriting insurance isn't wise, is it?

And yes, infrastructure is a biggie; thinking ahead, realizing things WILL happen, more and more frequently now. Things like putting electrical wires underground--it's not perfect, but it's a START along the road to minimizing as much as we can the devastation to come. I'm sure there are tons of things we could do to somewhat mitigate disasters like Sandy; my imagination isn't sufficient to think of many of them, but I have no doubt there are smarter people who already HAVE. People talk endlessly about the deficit. Think about how much worse it will be made by repairing every Katrina/Sandy that comes along; think of how much could be saved if we put people to work (jobs!) fixing our infrastructure and taking even a few steps to mitigate the cost of those to come.

To respond to the question about where I live. Earthquakes, serious ones, are very rare here. The last one to impact the Bay Area was in 1981. Ever since then, there has been a massive effort to retrofit every bridge, tunnel, building (those that weren't already earthquake resistant, which, in the City, weren't many) and so forth all over the Bay Area. It's been a pain in the ass, with the various bridges being shut down one at a time to do the work, but at least they're DOING it.

I live up a hill, quite a ways from the Bay. While we've had slides, and have further slide potential, the density of the population in Marin is kept to a certain point and not beyond, so in the majority of places we're not packed in like sardines. We have one "flood plain", out in Corte Madera. We looked at homes there, but the flood insurance was prohibitive, so we didn't buy there. And there's been no further development out there, either.

That was kind of my point. Not that everyone should move away from coasts, rivers, etc., etc., but that a less-than-short-sighted view might save lives and cost less, if we were to implement it. And the resistance to belief in climate change, especially in this country, stands in the way of that happening. It's left to individual states and areas, so New York encourages massive building, while the Bay Area retrofits and minimizes development. Development here has moved East, out into the Valley. Less desireable, but putting less strain on cost to the government if/when disaster strikes.

Tit for tat got us where we are today. If we want to be grownups, we need to resist the ugliness. If we each did, this would be a better reflection on Firefly and a more welcome place. I will try.

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Monday, November 26, 2012 12:21 PM

RIONAEIRE

Beir bua agus beannacht


I particularly liked Mal 4's first post, what she said.

Personally I would never live in a tornado alley location, that for some reason is the scariest natural disaster to me, maybe because there is so little warning and it is so mysterious, they miss this house and miss that house and topple yours for instance. With hurricanes at least you have quite a bit of advanced warning and time to figure out what you want to do, how to procede.

I feel quite safe where I live. I know you're all saying "Riona a stor, Mt. St. Helens is only an hour and fifteen minutes away from you, not to mention all those other volcanoes." Mt. St. Helens erupted in 1980 and all that happened to Portland was a thin ash layer, of course if Mt. Hood erupted it would effect me more, but those eruptions are rare, whereas hurricanes happen every year. We also have earthquake risk here, but when we have them, about once every ten years we get one we can feel, they don't seem to cause too much trouble thanks to building regulations and rules for safety. We don't get hurricanes, though we do get big storms about once a decade, but I live on a rise so my house has never had trouble. There was a tornado down an hour and a half south of me in 2011, my dad went to see what it looked like afterwords, not ever having seen such things in real life, he said it was scary, like aliens had come down and chosen which buildings to demolish and which ones to leave standing, tornados are funny that way.

"A completely coherant River means writers don't deliver" KatTaya

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Monday, November 26, 2012 12:53 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by MAL4PREZ:

Poor baby. He tries so hard, but this time no one bites.



Not looking for 'bites', just stating facts as they are.


" I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend. "

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Tue, November 5, 2024 17:35 - 4677 posts
Election fraud.
Tue, November 5, 2024 17:19 - 39 posts
Multiculturalism
Tue, November 5, 2024 17:16 - 53 posts
Funny Cartoon sparks Islamic Jihad !
Tue, November 5, 2024 17:12 - 248 posts
Elon Musk
Tue, November 5, 2024 16:57 - 32 posts
Electoral College, ReSteal 2024 Edition
Tue, November 5, 2024 16:55 - 40 posts
What kind of superpower could China be?
Tue, November 5, 2024 16:02 - 54 posts
End of the Democratic Party (not kidding)
Tue, November 5, 2024 14:18 - 56 posts
Disgruntled Tepublicans vow to move to Australia
Tue, November 5, 2024 13:53 - 76 posts
Kamala Harris for President
Tue, November 5, 2024 13:47 - 639 posts

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