Victorian Female Batman??? by Wishimay

America loves a winner!

How many times wili he go to that grrl power well?

Fathom the hypocrisy of a government that requires every citizen to prove they are insured... but not everyone must prove they are a citizen

I'm just a red pill guy in a room full of blue pill addicts.

" AU, that was great, LOL!! " - Chrisisall

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 12:26 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How many times wili he go to that grrl power well?

While I agree with that somewhat, one would also have to ask how many times are they going to just do male superheroes over and over and over.

Women heroes and villains still just aren't AS interesting to most guys AND most women as a male rescuer is. I see a female villain or hero they are either such a joke because of their over-sexualized "accessories", or they build them like a tank and BOTH men and women find them threatening (see todays news about Serena Williams) At the same time, women heroes that aren't over-sexualized don't sell as well, and trying to sell the waif as a hero is condescending to me.

Need to find a girl Bruce Willis... not too short, not too tall, not too busty, not too waif.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 5:54 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at https://www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Fanatics Cheer Joss's Comics at Comic-Con

"The first girl at the mike to ask a question was so emotional, she burst into tears; so thankful to Whedon for breathing life into Firefly character Zoe Washburne. It would be an understatement to say that fanaticism was dripping from the Hall H rafters. Look no farther than the guy who got up to the mike with the T-shirt “In Joss We Trust.” That was just the beginning, because today’s session ended with Whedon receiving the Comic-Con Icon Award by David Glanzer, the confab’s director of marketing and PR; an award which goes to an individual who has been instrumental in the awareness and appreciation of comics and related popular arts (previous honorees include George Lucas, Stan Lee, Ray Bradbury). Hall H lept to its feet in a 10-minute standing ovation as though Laurence Olivier just delivered his last performance of Hamlet onstage." http://deadline.com/2015/07/joss-whedon-comic-con-dr-horrible-2-firefl
y-avengers-1201474472/

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 6:21 AM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:

Need to find a girl Bruce Willis... not too short, not too tall, not too busty, not too waif.

Actually, there are a lot of "Bruce Willis " type heros, super and otherwise, out there for me. I'm thinking of Michael Keaton ( Batman ) Harrison Ford ( Han Solo, Indiana Jones ) , just everyday guys who aren't Chris Hemsworth, Chris Evans or Tom Cruise.

An ' average ' gal ? Most would call her a side kick or 'hero support', at best. Hell, even then they tend to be freaking hot - Felicity Smoak comes to mind.

And as for the Williams sisters, they are rather unique, there's no denying it. Freaks of nature have racked up gaudy # of titles and in a fashion simply not seen in women's tennis. There's a legit reason why they are viewed as threatening, in the competitive sense. They physically stand out. There's no denying it.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 10:14 AM

WHOZIT

A few years ago the film and TV fads were sexy vampires and zombies, they're still around and are a horror staple, but now the fad is super hero's, women in Washington and lovable homosexuals. What Joss is doing is a twist to the current super hero fad. It's only a matter of time until we get a TV or movie lesbian super hero secretary of state.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 1:44 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How many times wili he go to that grrl power well?

Probably as many times as it takes for people to stop asking, "Why do you create so many strong female characters?"

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 2:48 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How many times wili he go to that grrl power well?

Probably as many times as it takes for people to stop asking, "Why do you create so many strong female characters?"

You honestly think it'll work that way ? He keeps doing the same thing, over and over, and folks are just gonna go " Oh, yeah, no big deal. That's the same story line I've seen from Joss dozens of times over by now. I'll stop asking ".

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 7:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
How many times wili he go to that grrl power well?

Probably as many times as it takes for people to stop asking, "Why do you create so many strong female characters?"

He has a disconnect between men and women. He is disconnected from men. It's why most of what he does is not appealing to me. It's why most of what he does in the future I will not watch. Firefly and the Avengers is about it for me when it comes to Joss. The guys obsessed with women characters. I really think it's at the level of being a fetish. I think for him it's like dressing up dolls.

At one of the con's when Scarlett Johansson was asked what it was like working for Joss on avengers, all the guys on the panel immediately looked down with smiles on there faces. Something was said about just how involved Joss got in her appearance, her on screen look. It was quite a telling moment.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 8:30 PM

Wait, you don't wanna watch what Joss puts out because he doesn't specifically pander to the male ego?? Don't we have enough testosterone laden violent nonsense?

He may have a girl fetish, but he does guys well enough, too. Mal and Angel are great characters who actually try to think instead of mindlessly blowing shit up. Maybe he realizes, like a lot of us girls do- that female heroes and villains are usually a joke and that he could do it better.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 9:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
Wait, you don't wanna watch what Joss puts out because he doesn't specifically pander to the male ego?? Don't we have enough testosterone laden violent nonsense?

He may have a girl fetish, but he does guys well enough, too. Mal and Angel are great characters who actually try to think instead of mindlessly blowing shit up. Maybe he realizes, like a lot of us girls do- that female heroes and villains are usually a joke and that he could do it better.

Yes, he appeals to you and you are a women. His work does not appeal to me and I am a man. I don't mind strong female leads but with Joss it is all he knows, all he cares about. He has a fetish. He likes to dress up women and while there is a market for some of that, it does not sell to many.

If Joss is so against stereotyping women and objectifying them, why does he sexualize them just like all the rest in his movies. Remember, Inara was a whore and Kylee was very promiscuous,remember Saffron? Don't forget the episode that was going to have Inara rapped by the entire reefer crew and that is what the needle was for that she carried. If that happened they would all die. The guy is very dark and who knows what. He has many bamboozled as to what he is about and I think when a female actor has nothing to lose, she will have something to say about how evolved Joss is in female character development and looks.

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 11:17 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:

If Joss is so against stereotyping women and objectifying them, why does he sexualize them just like all the rest in his movies. Remember, Inara was a whore and Kylee was very promiscuous,remember Saffron?

So you think a women can't be a strong character and be sexual? She has to be a Monk?? The great thing about Inara is that she didn't let anyone define who she was by what she did. Mal only called her a whore out of jealousy and he knew she was strong enough to take it and give it back. I personally believe prostitution should be legal, so you're fighting the wrong battle with the wrong person. Her being a companion isn't anything I look down on. And I guess Inara was just supposed to let the Reavers come, hmm? Instead, she formulated a plan to fight back even if she were incapacitated. She was NOT a victim. She chose her profession. Unfortunately, sexy looking women who don't have sex don't sell well in Hollyweird. That is hardly Joss's fault.

Ps. Jayne would've done anything that would've let it near enough, I don't hear you guys complaining about him being "oversexualized" in grotesque manner. Why's it matter what a woman humps so damn much???

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Sunday, July 12, 2015 11:29 PM

America loves a winner!

I dig Joss and his grrl power stuff. I really do. River, Buffy, Faith... Hell, all the Slayers, and more.

But we get it. Message received. Why keep hitting us over the head w/ it ?

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Monday, July 13, 2015 1:33 AM

I'm not getting the problem here. It seems to me like you all think the white male ego is supposed to be the driving story force all the time? Or that somehow women should take "what they can get" and then go back to being ignored?

So there is ONE male director who's for girl power, there's thirty-nine dozen more that aren't. Female superheroes and villains are still underrepresented by far. The fact that someone was out there crying over a Zoe character should tell you all that female characters are crapped on all the time. The real interest in Zoe and Wash wasn't even remotely the black/white aspect, it was that a black woman could be as strong and respectable as the white male lead.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 9:51 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Wishy, I think you're fighting a losing battle, and so is Joss. He can't seem to win either way, getting blasted by the guys for having too many strong women, then blasted by a fringe of the feminists when he has Natasha get romantic with a guy. Yes, Joss writes some strong female characters, but he does not scrimp on the males either:

Rupert Giles
Angel
Charles Gunn
Malcolm Reynolds
Derrial Book
Victor (Dollhouse)
Johner (Alien Resurrection)

Xander and Wash are the goofy sidekicks although they did show their heroic side every once in a while. I won't include Jayne Cobb on that list because I feel he is a parody of the macho male, not someone Joss considered a hero, although that might have changed if the story had continued. Maybe Wesley Wyndam-Price, at least where the character ended up, even though he began as a buffoon.

I think it was Joss' writing that made the first Avengers so good, the way he handled many different strong male characters and two females, Natasha and Maria Hill. Tom Hiddleston is a great actor, but Joss is the one who wrote the words that Loki spoke, making even a clearly evil man someone you could sympathize with.

Joss likes strong women characters. So what? So do I. But most of all he and I like well-written, well-rounded characters, that act the way I would like to think I would if given the chance. No, I'm not the heroic type, but I can dream can't I? It's okay if you don't like everything Joss does, I'm sure he won't lose any sleep over it.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 11:07 AM

I like Joss too but:

The one female Joss portrayed the way women wish to be portrayed was Zoe. She was strong and when it came to her sexuality, anything but lose. Joss could have just as easily made Kaylee a great mechanic who was not sexually promiscuous, and found a different reason for Inara to be onboard other than her being a prostitute. He also chose to make a hot female River a victim, not Simons younger brother. There were four women on the Firefly set and all were knockouts. Saffron, another hot women and someone who had been professionally trained to exploit her sexuality against men, showed up almost immediately in the series with a reoccurring role. What about Heart of Gold a whore house, yet it is not him who is exploiting women but the male character in the episode he created. All this sex and sexual innuendo in just a few episodes. Joss sells his product at the expense of women’s sexuality just like all the rest.

I believe his portraying women as strong is a consequence of his need to fill his set with women and nothing more. Why else would he constantly feel the need to point out that he does not objectify women? Have you ever heard the saying, Thou protest a bit too loudly? Why did the guys jokingly call Scarlet Johansson’s character in the avengers a whore during an interview, if it was not somehow suggested in the development of her role? Why did they all grin and look down sheepishly as though saying, I ain’t touching this, when Scarlet was asked in an interview about Joss’s involvement in developing her character in the movie.

No sorry, I don’t see Joss the way you do. I don’t mean to imply he is a bad person. Only that he use’s women more than most to sell his product and tries to suggest he is doing something entirely different. Hot women sell and it’s the oldest form of exploitation in adverting. Joss takes advantage of this and is second to none when it comes to exploiting women. With Joss a womens' sexuality is always lurking just beneath the surface or right out front for all to see.

This is based of course on what I have watched that Joss has created. Much of what he does is unappealing to my viewing tastes. That said, I love Firefly.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 12:38 PM

I think you're missing the point. A female character enjoying sex is not belittling them. In the real world there are women who enjoy having sex. It doesn't make them weak or bad people. The point was that Joss was writing the characters to be open about who they are. They aren't ashamed of their own desires. They're comfortable in their own skin. If the audience is uncomfortable with that then it reflects more on them than on the characters or writing IMO.

Anyway as for the topic of the comic book it simply doesn't interest me. Male or female, I'm not interested in a victorian era batman character.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 2:27 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
I think you're missing the point. A female character enjoying sex is not belittling them. In the real world there are women who enjoy having sex. It doesn't make them weak or bad people. The point was that Joss was writing the characters to be open about who they are. They aren't ashamed of their own desires. They're comfortable in their own skin. If the audience is uncomfortable with that then it reflects more on them than on the characters or writing IMO.

Anyway as for the topic of the comic book it simply doesn't interest me. Male or female, I'm not interested in a victorian era batman character.

I am not missing the point.

Exploitation is exploitation. Just because you cast a women as a lead or strong, does not mean you do not objectify women the same way others do. Saying you are not exploiting women or you’re somehow different because your female whore is strong, and the other guys’ female whore is week, is juvenile. I get what you are saying. I just disagree as to why he portrays women in the same roles as men in his work. Joss comes from a comic book world. He creates his women as comic book figures. Strong but very sexual and in tights.

His denial pertaining to how he portrays women is the same as Inara's. It is implied she is strong yet we see what being a prostitute has done to her. Remember her response to Mal sleeping with her friend? Not so strong after all. She cannot face the reality that sleeping with different men, (many, many men), makes her no different than the women she calls whores herself. Why, because they are not registered with the guild; so she runs. It is the same with Joss. Objectifying women while casting them as leads or not is the same as objectifying women cast in lesser roles.

As I said in a previous post. I think it is a fetish. Women have to be front and center in all he does and he rebukes all who do not follow suit. It would not surprise me to learn his first sexual experience was with a female in tights residing on the cover of a comic book.

Remember, he is a self-described girlie man who rejects the male role in society and has said so. It is not as though he wishes to lift women up to equal status with men, but instead that he prefers them. There is a difference. I have a suspicion that if he thought he could sell it, Zoe would have been the captain of Serenity. And why he is now contemplating a female Batman. Not a female Batwoman, but a female Batman.

“Joss Whedon's next project is a comic series about a 'Victorian female Batman'”

As I scratch my head over that one?

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Monday, July 13, 2015 4:25 PM

America loves a winner!

Quote:

I am not missing the point.

Exploitation is exploitation. Just because you cast a women as a lead or strong, does not mean you do not objectify women the same way others do. Saying you are not exploiting women or you’re somehow different because your female whore is strong, and the other guys’ female whore is week, is juvenile. I get what you are saying. I just disagree as to why he portrays women in the same roles as men in his work. Joss comes from a comic book world. He creates his women as comic book figures. Strong but very sexual and in tights.

A woman enjoying sex makes her a whore ?

Wow. I was accused of saying nothing even that bad, and still was cast as the worst person in the world.

I got news for ya THGRRI, human sex drive can be a powerful thing. Men or women.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 6:53 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:

Quote:

I am not missing the point.

Exploitation is exploitation. Just because you cast a women as a lead or strong, does not mean you do not objectify women the same way others do. Saying you are not exploiting women or you’re somehow different because your female whore is strong, and the other guys’ female whore is week, is juvenile. I get what you are saying. I just disagree as to why he portrays women in the same roles as men in his work. Joss comes from a comic book world. He creates his women as comic book figures. Strong but very sexual and in tights.

A woman enjoying sex makes her a whore ?

Wow. I was accused of saying nothing even that bad, and still was cast as the worst person in the world.

I got news for ya THGRRI, human sex drive can be a powerful thing. Men or women.

As always you haven't read the entire post or my other posts that puts that paragraph into it's proper context.

I am not calling women whores and have said nothing about sex drives.

Holy shit Rappy buy a brain.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 9:56 PM

America loves a winner!

I quoted you so yes I did read your comments.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
I quoted you so yes I did read your comments.

Quote:
Rappy

A woman enjoying sex makes her a whore ?

Show me where I imply that a woman is a whore for having or enjoying sex. Explain to me how you come up with that from what I wrote.

Come to think of it. This is the wrong thread for this. I don't wish to discuss it further.

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Monday, July 13, 2015 10:42 PM

OK, Joss: Would you please make a female character that is celibate or asexual? Apparently, some people think that's important for womens lib

I've only met like... two of those in thirty years, but....whatever.

I know, how about an intersex or hermaphrodite character? I've met just as many of those, believe it or not.

PS What is wrong with preferring woman, anyway? Everybody can have a preference in who they spend time with. Besides, what is so bad about WOMEN? They murder less, rape less, molest less, commit violent crimes less, and most like to make things smell good, taste good, or look good. And contrary to popular opinion, most women like sex, it just has to be on their terms. But that makes sense, too. I mean, it takes trust to let someone go poking around in yer insides, dunnit?

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Tuesday, July 14, 2015 11:25 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
His denial pertaining to how he portrays women is the same as Inara's. It is implied she is strong yet we see what being a prostitute has done to her. Remember her response to Mal sleeping with her friend? Not so strong after all. She cannot face the reality that sleeping with different men, (many, many men), makes her no different than the women she calls whores herself. Why, because they are not registered with the guild; so she runs. It is the same with Joss. Objectifying women while casting them as leads or not is the same as objectifying women cast in lesser roles.

I think we fundamentally disagree on the other stuff. So, I just cut it out. Here I think I interpret that scene differently. She's not crying because Mal had sex with someone else. I think she's crying because she is worried she missed her chance with Mal. She's been guarding her own feelings so much that she hasn't told Mal how she feels. When she sees him with another woman she's worried that he's moved on. That's my take at least. I don't see that as weak. She's experiencing normal human emotion. That's all.

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Tuesday, July 14, 2015 5:27 PM

Quote:
Zeek
She's not crying because Mal had sex with someone else. I think she's crying because she is worried she missed her chance with Mal. She's been guarding her own feelings so much that she hasn't told Mal how she feels. When she sees him with another woman she's worried that he's moved on. That's my take at least. I don't see that as weak. She's experiencing normal human emotion. That's all.

I won't even attempt to address Wishie's post because it suggests to me she did not understand a thing I said.

Inara just got done telling Mal “One of the virtues of not being puritanical about sex is not being embarrassed afterwards. You should look into it.” She also had a conversation with Nandi where she tells her she will be fine. I mention that to remind you that after the action, Mal, Inara and the rest of the crew would be leaving. No, she is not with Mal because of her occupation and she leaves Serenity for the same reason. Not because she believes Mal is gone to her forever, but because committing to Mal means leaving her profession and in a way admitting Mal was right.

In the movie Serenity I think that is the decision she is about to make at the end of the movie when she says she is not sure if she wants to leave.

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Tuesday, July 14, 2015 5:32 PM

America loves a winner!

( pardon the thread jack )

Zeek - If you're referring to Inara and Mal in Heart of Gold, I think it goes further than her 'missing her chance' w/ Mal. Lotta stuff not seen on screen about Inara's health and her chance at a long life. She very well may love Mal, and didn't realize it herself until that moment. But she also knew that if her and Mal had gotten together, they couldn't be a happy couple for very long. Which Joss has more than hinted at since.

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Tuesday, July 14, 2015 7:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
( pardon the thread jack )

Zeek - If you're referring to Inara and Mal in Heart of Gold, I think it goes further than her 'missing her chance' w/ Mal. Lotta stuff not seen on screen about Inara's health and her chance at a long life. She very well may love Mal, and didn't realize it herself until that moment. But she also knew that if her and Mal had gotten together, they couldn't be a happy couple for very long. Which Joss has more than hinted at since.

OK, that's a valid point that fits into the topic.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2015 12:18 AM

....I won't even attempt to address Wishie's post because it suggests to me she did not understand a thing I said...
....I don't wish to discuss it further
....you haven't read the entire post or my other posts...

Funny how no one else seems to get what you think you are saying...badly.

As for...

"...we see what being a prostitute has done to her."

I agree with Zeek, she wasn't damaged by being a prostitute at all, that's just what YOU read into it. I totally got that she loved her job, until she realized she was in love with Mal MORE.

Some people like to have sex a lot, with many people. Doesn't make them "damaged" and it's not for you to decide the right or wrong of it.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2015 10:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:
Zeek
She's not crying because Mal had sex with someone else. I think she's crying because she is worried she missed her chance with Mal. She's been guarding her own feelings so much that she hasn't told Mal how she feels. When she sees him with another woman she's worried that he's moved on. That's my take at least. I don't see that as weak. She's experiencing normal human emotion. That's all.

I won't even attempt to address Wishie's post because it suggests to me she did not understand a thing I said.

Inara just got done telling Mal “One of the virtues of not being puritanical about sex is not being embarrassed afterwards. You should look into it.” She also had a conversation with Nandi where she tells her she will be fine. I mention that to remind you that after the action, Mal, Inara and the rest of the crew would be leaving. No, she is not with Mal because of her occupation and she leaves Serenity for the same reason. Not because she believes Mal is gone to her forever, but because committing to Mal means leaving her profession and in a way admitting Mal was right.

In the movie Serenity I think that is the decision she is about to make at the end of the movie when she says she is not sure if she wants to leave.

I've never seen a listing of companion rules but I've never heard anything about them not being allowed to have relationships. The crew was planning on leaving but it's not like they never return to the same moons. We've seen them do that in just the brief number of episodes and the movie we got. If Mal developed feelings for Nandi he would likely find reasons to return again and again. Obviously her death didn't leave much opportunity for that. I'm not understanding your point about her line about not being embarrassed by sex. She was taking control of the conversation and trying to put a stop to any discussion about what had just happened IMO.

We don't get a clear explanation about why she left Serenity, but "that man doesn't know what he wants" is open to interpretation. My guess is she was emotional about being so close to someone she was interested in but being stuck in a state of not being with him. So, she needed to remove herself from that situation. Now whether that's due to her job, his closed off nature, or her illness is unknown. Could be some combination of all of them. We'll never know. Regardless I'm not sure if any of them make Inara a weak or exploited character.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2015 9:48 PM

Please people don't tell me Inara was not exploited. They began brainwashing her at 12 to be a thing of pleasure. Sexually and emotionally, just like the geisha's of past. Unless of course you believe it is acceptable to start a young girl who is all of 12, on the road to being a prostitute. Want to change your mind wishie or do you still think this is about some people who like sex; please. I'll give you a hint, pedophilia.

"On Sihnon, we started training at twelve, years of discipline and preparation before the physical act of pleasure was even mentioned. Control was the first lesson, and the last."- Inara Serra explaining how much studying is involved with being a Companion.

Inara, born in the late 25th century on Sihnon, is a Companion, a high-society courtesan licensed by the Union of Allied Planets (the "Alliance"). In Alliance society, Companions are part of the social elite, often accompanying the wealthy and powerful. They have considerable ritual and ceremony surrounding their services, which appear to extend beyond sex to nurturing psychological and emotional well-being.

The sexual tension between the two is clear, however it is left unresolved by the end of the series. It's hinted that she has deeper feelings for him than she likes to admit, demonstrated by her weeping after Mal's liaison with the house madame Nandi, her friend, in Heart of Gold. She openly dislikes the idea of Mal getting married. After finding Mal unconscious on the ground, the result of Saffron's kiss, Inara kisses Mal. As River is picking up their thoughts in the beginning of "Objects in Space" it seems clear that Inara and Mal are both hoping the other will admit the unspoken feelings. In the comic book "Better Days" it is revealed that Inara at least occasionally fantasizes about Mal while she is carnally engaged with her clients. In the nine month gap since the movie 'Serenity', these feelings seem to be resolved and open by the first issue of 'Leaves on the Wind' as they as seen going into Mal's quarters together, where they engage in intercourse, although this is only after a typical session of bickering between the two, suggesting things haven't completely changed. Inara's feelings run more than just physical attraction towards the captain as she dons on the attire of a nitty gritty crew member over her fine silks, indicating she has been helping the crew on their jobs ever since Miranda."

Of course her being a prostitute was the thing that kept them apart. She was confused because she was trained from the age of 12 to see things a certain way and her feeling for Mal conflicted with that.

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Wednesday, July 15, 2015 11:45 PM

In other words THEY DIDN'T GET SEXUAL TRAINING UNTIL THEY WERE ADULTS. What the "adult age of consent" is in the "Verse" is probably up for debate.

She could have stopped at any time, as she was an ADULT. She CHOSE to do it for a decade. Nandi left, so it's reasonable to assume anyone else could've. Nandi just re-used the training she already had in another way, so it's clear she didn't hate the idea either.

We "brainwash" kids of 12 to be gymnasts because they show a certain aptitude, working them until puberty itself is delayed. They start gifted kids in elementary school to be whatever we think they should be, because they don't know what they want.

As to the relationship aspect, many people are torn between a job they love and starting a relationship with a person. She was having a hard time with deciding to join the Independents and give up her own personal independence, she clearly had no qualms about the job, as she defended it to multiple people.

You just really can't understand or accept that not everyone is set up for monogamy. I thinks this is WAY more about you and your sexual inhibitions than Inara.

"It is NOT our mission to impose Federation or Earth values on any others in the Galaxy" -Captain Jean-Luc Picard

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Thursday, July 16, 2015 10:31 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Wishimay:
In other words THEY DIDN'T GET SEXUAL TRAINING UNTIL THEY WERE ADULTS. What the "adult age of consent" is in the "Verse" is probably up for debate.

Wish, if you think it is acceptable to start training girls from the age of 12 to be prostitutes than we have nothing further to discuss here. Have a good day.

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Thursday, July 16, 2015 11:49 AM

You ain't getting it.... THERE WAS NO SEXUAL TRAINING UNTIL ADULTHOOD.

NO one touched them or even talked to them about sex. They taught culture and how to control oneself. It was like a finishing school. I'm sure it was more like they had to graduate that course before they could register as a companion.

.

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Thursday, July 16, 2015 12:53 PM

No Wish you don't get it. Brainwashing is an invasive form of influence, it requires the complete isolation and dependency of the subject. Inara who at the time was twelve, was placed within the confines of the academy separated from all outside influences.

In psychology the study of brainwashing often referred to as thought reform, falls into the sphere of "social influence." Social influence happens every minute of every day. It's the collection of ways in which people can change other people's attitudes, beliefs and behaviors.

You are speaking to a subject you know nothing about and refusing to see because you are a fan. Me too but reality is reality.

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Thursday, July 16, 2015 4:37 PM

I'm trying to say you are speaking of things you do not know, that was not revealed. All we know is they were sent to a school at 12-ish, as are many children even today. We know they were taught music, and self control. We know Nandi LEFT so it's voluntary.

I'm saying that's all we've got to go on. Joss made sure to include that line about learning control for YEARS. I don't think they were sent to a training house specifically to be companions, but for intensive cultural training that most likely included children being groomed for the ruling class as well(she sure seemed to know a LOT of 'em). I'm sure had there been more material, this would've been clarified. We do know there were men that were companions, so this wasn't just about women...

I will say that traveler cultures tend to marry kids off young, so maybe the age of consent was 16. This isn't even EARTH we are talking about anyway. The culture has evolved and de-evolved into something else entirely. I do not believe the intent was pedophilia, but something closer to Geisha training (which did not include sex either)

You are babbling about Joss not writing enough man-specific material, then you call him a pedophile, and he has a "girl fetish", now it's brainwash the kids time. If you think he has such nefarious intent WHAT ARE YOU DOING HERE?????

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Friday, July 17, 2015 11:39 AM

Even if we go off of the assumption that Inara was brainwashed into sex slavery are we then saying that writers aren't allowed to write about things they don't personally accept? Is a murder mystery writer condoning murder?

I think Dollhouse is a much better example than Inara. Joss was writing about people who were coerced into selling themselves into a form of slavery and prostitution. He often said in interviews that the subject matter was intended to be uncomfortable to the audience. He was trying to get the audience to think about the situation and what they believe would be right or wrong with such technology. I really doubt he was saying that everything that happened on the show to the characters he created was perfectly acceptable.

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Friday, July 17, 2015 10:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Even if we go off of the assumption that Inara was brainwashed into sex slavery are we then saying that writers aren't allowed to write about things they don't personally accept? Is a murder mystery writer condoning murder?

I think Dollhouse is a much better example than Inara. Joss was writing about people who were coerced into selling themselves into a form of slavery and prostitution. He often said in interviews that the subject matter was intended to be uncomfortable to the audience. He was trying to get the audience to think about the situation and what they believe would be right or wrong with such technology. I really doubt he was saying that everything that happened on the show to the characters he created was perfectly acceptable.

I only pointed out the obvious about Inara's upbringing to show some cause for her troubles hooking up with Mal. She was struggling with her belief in a culture she was raised to revere and her feelings for him. I did not pass judgment on Joss for creating her character the way he did. Some get confused and defensive about anything that they perceive as an attack on Joss or the show to the point of suggesting it is acceptable to put girls as young as 12 on a path to prostitution; its amazing.

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Friday, July 17, 2015 11:46 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Some get confused and defensive...

Passive aggressive much???

She wasn't at all confused about being a Companion, she was reticent to join the Independents!!!

It's clear when they meet and are hashing over shuttle details that she comes from a higher class, and leaving being a Companion would mean hitching her star to a damn near penniless CARGO FREIGHT CAPTAIN.
SHE initially looked down on HIM, and it took her a whike to realize he had the kind of fire and passion that she was looking for.

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Monday, July 20, 2015 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by THGRRI:
Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
Even if we go off of the assumption that Inara was brainwashed into sex slavery are we then saying that writers aren't allowed to write about things they don't personally accept? Is a murder mystery writer condoning murder?

I think Dollhouse is a much better example than Inara. Joss was writing about people who were coerced into selling themselves into a form of slavery and prostitution. He often said in interviews that the subject matter was intended to be uncomfortable to the audience. He was trying to get the audience to think about the situation and what they believe would be right or wrong with such technology. I really doubt he was saying that everything that happened on the show to the characters he created was perfectly acceptable.

I only pointed out the obvious about Inara's upbringing to show some cause for her troubles hooking up with Mal. She was struggling with her belief in a culture she was raised to revere and her feelings for him. I did not pass judgment on Joss for creating her character the way he did. Some get confused and defensive about anything that they perceive as an attack on Joss or the show to the point of suggesting it is acceptable to put girls as young as 12 on a path to prostitution; its amazing.

What about it makes you think Joss believes that's acceptable? The alliance murdered a planet full of people trying to control them. Just because he wrote it doesn't mean he thinks it would be acceptable.

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Monday, July 20, 2015 8:08 PM

Quote:
Zeek
What about it makes you think Joss believes that's acceptable? The alliance murdered a planet full of people trying to control them. Just because he wrote it doesn't mean he thinks it would be acceptable.

I don't make any claims that Joss condones the behavior exhibited by his characters. It is a TV show. I am speaking about the characters and the social structure of society as portrayed in the show in some instances, and what I think motivates Joss in others. There are some here who can't differentiate when I am speaking about one and then the other. They interpret my posts as though there is no separation.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:09 AM

America loves a winner!

Mal's view is that Inara is a slave, whether she cares to admit it or not. That's what we learn from 'Shindig'. Despite the fancy dresses and elaborate parties, Mal sees Inara's profession as little more than sex slavery, and he's agin it.

Inara tries to explain to him that it's her choice, which plays into the whole 'it's my body and I'll do with it as I please ' meme.

Atherton lays hands on Inara, grabbing her by the wrist, and claims her as his 'property', insomuch as he's paid for her services for the night, weekend, what ever.

And as for companion training, even if they aren't physically active until later , they still start in on the basic concepts of pleasing the client when the candidates are very young. ( We're talking fiction here , remember ) So while there is the 'finishing school ' aspect of being a companion, and not all engagements result in physical interaction, there's the obvious and understood part of the job. You take on a client who has certain wants, you're to see to that client and make them happy. And one doesn't become skilled in such activity by reading it from some book.

Just sayin'.

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Tuesday, July 21, 2015 8:45 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
Mal's view is that Inara is a slave, whether she cares to admit it or not. That's what we learn from 'Shindig'. Despite the fancy dresses and elaborate parties, Mal sees Inara's profession as little more than sex slavery, and he's agin it.

Inara tries to explain to him that it's her choice, which plays into the whole 'it's my body and I'll do with it as I please ' meme.

Atherton lays hands on Inara, grabbing her by the wrist, and claims her as his 'property', insomuch as he's paid for her services for the night, weekend, what ever.

And as for companion training, even if they aren't physically active until later , they still start in on the basic concepts of pleasing the client when the candidates are very young. ( We're talking fiction here , remember ) So while there is the 'finishing school ' aspect of being a companion, and not all engagements result in physical interaction, there's the obvious and understood part of the job. You take on a client who has certain wants, you're to see to that client and make them happy. And one doesn't become skilled in such activity by reading it from some book.

Just sayin'.

Yep

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Sunday, July 26, 2015 7:06 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by AURaptor:
So while there is the 'finishing school ' aspect of being a companion, and not all engagements result in physical interaction, there's the obvious and understood part of the job. You take on a client who has certain wants, you're to see to that client and make them happy. And one doesn't become skilled in such activity by reading it from some book.

It IS her body and she CAN do what she wants, despite what Mal thinks, and there are many countries where prostitution is legal because FREEDOM there is more important than the lip service we give it in this country...

Also, I don't think Joss was entirely clear about the training house aspect, either way you think about it because he didn't have time to be.
I'd love to see another comic that deals with this issue, myself.

And yet another article about how girls get screwed over by menfolk, in TODAY'S society, and they don't even have to be prostitutes.
https://www.yahoo.com/parenting/moms-superhero-dolls-teach-daughter-im
portant-124775351952.html

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