REAL WORLD EVENT DISCUSSIONS

"Evidens". So, where are we now?

POSTED BY: SIGNYM
UPDATED: Monday, October 23, 2017 15:44
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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 2:15 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


The whole "dossier" thing seems to have died an ignominious death. There goes the "golden showers" narrative.

Comey said that Trump was not under investigation for "Russia". There goes the the whole "collusion" thing.

The DOJ warned America about believing anonymous leaks. There goes ... literally. everything that's been in the MSM for six months.

****

So, ignoring all of the ludicrous fake news based on equally-ludicrous (if not downright criminal) leaks, and ignoring Trump's equally-ludicrous tweets, where are are, really?

TTP and TTIP are dead. Good news!

The temporary travel-ban is in place until we can figure out a better "vetting" process. That's also good news.

The rate of illegal immigration is down sharply. More good news.

Our military is making a point in the South China Sea, Syria, and Afghanistan. Now, frankly, all I think that Trump is going to find is exactly how powerless our military is when facing a nation (or two) that are prepared to fight back. NOT good news.

The "repeal and replace" GOP effort is stalled out (for now) and the Dems have the votes to stall it our forever. Equivocal news, which COULD be good news if the Dems get their act together and come up with a better alternative.

The USA withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord. Not great news, but not terrible either, since Trump can't really prevent states and cities from continuing to participate.

The GOP Federal budget, like "repeal and replace", is fraught with internal divisions, and Trump's tax reform may be DOA. Probably good news, but we really do need to reduce the deficit.

So, overall, a pretty mixed bag, but not the disaster that you might think by reading the MSM.

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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 9:26 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!



The Resist crowd be like...



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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 10:03 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Weird and uncomfortable: Signym and Auraptor holding hands and singing Kumbaya together... reminds me of this bizarro scene:




==============================

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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 10:05 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The whole "dossier" thing seems to have died an ignominious death. There goes the "golden showers" narrative.

Comey said that Trump was not under investigation for "Russia". There goes the the whole "collusion" thing.

The DOJ warned America about believing anonymous leaks. There goes ... literally. everything that's been in the MSM for six months.

****

So, ignoring all of the ludicrous fake news based on equally-ludicrous (if not downright criminal) leaks, and ignoring Trump's equally-ludicrous tweets, where are are, really?

TTP and TTIP are dead. Good news!

The temporary travel-ban is in place until we can figure out a better "vetting" process. That's also good news.

The rate of illegal immigration is down sharply. More good news.

Our military is making a point in the South China Sea, Syria, and Afghanistan. Now, frankly, all I think that Trump is going to find is exactly how powerless our military is when facing a nation (or two) that are prepared to fight back. NOT good news.

The "repeal and replace" GOP effort is stalled out (for now) and the Dems have the votes to stall it our forever. Equivocal news, which COULD be good news if the Dems get their act together and come up with a better alternative.

The USA withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord. Not great news, but not terrible either, since Trump can't really prevent states and cities from continuing to participate.

The GOP Federal budget, like "repeal and replace", is fraught with internal divisions, and Trump's tax reform may be DOA. Probably good news, but we really do need to reduce the deficit.

So, overall, a pretty mixed bag, but not the disaster that you might think by reading the MSM.



Laughable - thanks for the funny.

==============================

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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 1:19 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by G:

Laughable - thanks for the funny.

Trump is a man who invented an imaginary friend, John Barron, to call up members of the New York press and lie to them about his business success and his sex life. (He claimed, among other things, to be dating Carla Bruni.) A man who “does not need” the media does not do that.

Trump wrote of the third lady that he chose her because he wanted to be able to enter a room with her and make other men envious — to see “grown men weep” — a very strange admission that his satisfaction in his marriage rests neither with himself nor with his wife but with third parties who might ogle her. (His cuckoldry-obsessed fans must surely have noted this.) But envious of what? Asked during a public appearance whether she’d have married Trump if he weren’t rich, she answered: “If I weren’t beautiful, do you think he’d be with me?” There is a certain clarity in that, one of a very familiar sort.

What do you think he reads first in the morning: His national-security briefing or Page Six?

As president and president-elect, Trump spent a great deal of time tweeting about his ratings as host of The Apprentice and those of his successor, about the ratings of various news programs covering him, about the viewerships and readerships of various media outlets, generally theorizing that those critical of him must by moral necessity be in decline. On the other hand, he plainly does not know that there are tax provisions in the health-care bill Republicans are trying to drag out of Congress: He was perplexed when they came up at a White House meeting with Republican senators, saying that he was planning on taking on tax reform at a later date, oblivious to the content of the bill he purports to be negotiating. He doesn’t understand what’s going on between Saudi Arabia and Qatar, but has taken to Twitter to argue — surprise — that, whatever it is, it’s all about him.

Read more at www.nationalreview.com/article/449145/donald-trump-media-mika-brzezins
ki-tweet


The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 4:50 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


" Trump is a man who invented an imaginary friend, John Barron, ... "


And Obama is a man who invented a " composite " girlfriend, for one of his 2 autobiographies, written before he'd even become a US Senator, and the first one, ( likely ghost ) written, at the age of 34 yrs old.

The man hadn't done anything of real merit in life, yet writes a book about himself ???



Who DOES that ?


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Tuesday, July 4, 2017 5:31 PM

RIVERLOVE


Quote:

Originally posted by AURaptor:

And Obama is a man who invented a " composite " girlfriend, for one of his 2 autobiographies, written before he'd even become a US Senator, and the first one, ( likely ghost ) written, at the age of 34 yrs old.

The man hadn't done anything of real merit in life, yet writes a book about himself ???

Who DOES that?


"And he shall know your ways."

"Again, the prophecy."

"Could he be the one?"

"The sleeper must awaken!"

"And how can this be?

For he IS the Kwisatz Haderach!"


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:20 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.




Now, can we talk about something real?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:22 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Weird and uncomfortable: Signym and Auraptor holding hands and singing Kumbaya together... - GSTRING
Do you never wonder, GSTRING, why you never post anything OTHER THAN personal attacks??

I know I do!

I mean, how old ARE you. Like, 15??

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 6:07 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Weird and uncomfortable: Signym and Auraptor holding hands and singing Kumbaya together... - GSTRING
Do you never wonder, GSTRING, why you never post anything OTHER THAN personal attacks??

I know I do!

I mean, how old ARE you. Like, 15??

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one




If you ever post something to make me think I'm not reading the efforts of a 5 year old, then yes, I'll respond "better."

Seriously, don't you find it funny as hell that you now find herself - because of all of your deflections and lies and deceptions - on the same side as your once hated forum nemesis, Auraptor? Isn't that just the tastiest irony? Why yes it is! It's so perfect.

==============================

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 8:05 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


This is Evidence that trolls have more dignity than Trump:

The troll apologized, but Trump did not, for the troll’s video of Trump and CNN, which was tweeted by the US president himself. The video was widely seen as a call for violence against journalists.

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/881503147168071680

www.gocomics.com/nickanderson/2017/07/05

‘I am in no way this kind of person. I love and accept people of all walks of life and have done so for my entire life,’ the troll named HanAssholeSolo wrote.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/07/05/troll-apologises-for-creating-gif-of-don
ald-trump-wrestling-cnn-6755762
/

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 9:01 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Weird and uncomfortable: Signym and Auraptor holding hands and singing Kumbaya together... - GSTRING

Do you never wonder, GSTRING, why you never post anything OTHER THAN personal attacks??
I know I do!
I mean, how old ARE you. Like, 15?? - SIGNY

If you ever post something to make me think I'm not reading the efforts of a 5 year old, then yes, I'll respond "better."
Seriously, don't you find it funny as hell that you now find herself - because of all of your deflections and lies and deceptions - on the same side as your once hated forum nemesis, Auraptor? Isn't that just the tastiest irony? Why yes it is! It's so perfect.- GSTRING





RAPPY and I will probably never agree on global warming, the nature of science, or whether Saddam had WMD. He's probably a partisan Republican, while I'm a reformed Democrat who's become pretty catholic about my politicians. But we agree on the nature of religion, and he probably feels the same way about Hillary as I do.

Clearly, there are points where we agree and points where we disagree. It's a complicated universe, and people are complicated too.

Only an idiot looks at the world and thinks in terms of "sides" - like the world is made of two football teams and you root for one or the other- so I guess that tells me what you are.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 10:17 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND, sweetie - are we here to discuss real-world events, or to gossip about gossip?

The Dem Senators, if they do their job, can block "Trumpcare" and pretty much anything else that they don't like, indefinitely. They too can become "the party of no".

So all of this sturm und drang about Trump's domestic policies ... well, those can get tangled up in Congress indefinitely. Right? Unless you don't trust Democratic Senators to do their job? It's like I said before the election - the only area where the President has any power to do anything at all is foreign policy, or border security.

So, since Trump's policies can be blocked for a long time, it's now up to the Dems to wage a winning publicity campaign on something other than "Russia" or on Trump's many personal foibles. If the Dems can't manage to do that, and if they insist on sticking with their transnational masters, they might win some seats in 2018 but all they will do is stoke the fire of broad dissatisfaction when THEY TOO CONTINUE TO STIFF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.





-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 11:15 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Weird and uncomfortable: Signym and Auraptor holding hands and singing Kumbaya together... - GSTRING

Do you never wonder, GSTRING, why you never post anything OTHER THAN personal attacks??
I know I do!
I mean, how old ARE you. Like, 15?? - SIGNY

If you ever post something to make me think I'm not reading the efforts of a 5 year old, then yes, I'll respond "better."
Seriously, don't you find it funny as hell that you now find herself - because of all of your deflections and lies and deceptions - on the same side as your once hated forum nemesis, Auraptor? Isn't that just the tastiest irony? Why yes it is! It's so perfect.- GSTRING





RAPPY and I will probably never agree on global warming, the nature of science, or whether Saddam had WMD. He's probably a partisan Republican, while I'm a reformed Democrat who's become pretty catholic about my politicians. But we agree on the nature of religion, and he probably feels the same way about Hillary as I do.

Clearly, there are points where we agree and points where we disagree. It's a complicated universe, and people are complicated too.

Only an idiot looks at the world and thinks in terms of "sides" - like the world is made of two football teams and you root for one or the other- so I guess that tells me what you are.




Only an idiot or a liar looks at my posts and thinks I think in terms of "sides," like the world is made of two football teams and I root for one or the other - so I guess that tells me what you are.

Auraptor is an old school republican and you're an old school soviet - no matter how you try and 'splain that the irony of it is too funny, "dogs and cats living together."

==============================

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 11:17 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND, sweetie - are we here to discuss real-world events, or to gossip about gossip?

The Dem Senators, if they do their job, can block "Trumpcare" and pretty much anything else that they don't like, indefinitely. They too can become "the party of no".

So all of this sturm und drang about Trump's domestic policies ... well, those can get tangled up in Congress indefinitely. Right? Unless you don't trust Democratic Senators to do their job? It's like I said before the election - the only area where the President has any power to do anything at all is foreign policy, or border security.

So, since Trump's policies can be blocked for a long time, it's now up to the Dems to wage a winning publicity campaign on something other than "Russia" or on Trump's many personal foibles. If the Dems can't manage to do that, and if they insist on sticking with their transnational masters, they might win some seats in 2018 but all they will do is stoke the fire of broad dissatisfaction when THEY TOO CONTINUE TO STIFF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.




"Don't like Trump or the Republicans? It's the Democrats fault!"

==============================

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 12:38 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

"Don't like Trump or the Republicans? It's the Democrats fault!"
I don't like the Democrats, and it's the Democrat's fault. The biggest reason to vote for Trump was "Hillary". Dems need to change that dynamic.

Quote:

Only an idiot or a liar looks at my posts and thinks I think in terms of "sides," like the world is made of two football teams and I root for one or the other - so I guess that tells me what you are.
Only an idiot wouldn't understand THEIR OWN POST, in which you clearly pointed to "sides", as in
Quote:

on the same side as your once hated forum nemesis
And then you double down on that concept, as in

Quote:

Auraptor is an old school republican and you're an old school soviet
dividing up the world into "sides", again.

I'm not on RAPPY's "side" and I doubt he is on mine. Neither one of is in the "team" that you think we are. You, OTOH, aren't even in the real world: you seem to be inhabiting some sort of paranoid fantasy-land. But you can't even figure out what and who you really need to look out for, so good luck with all that.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 1:44 PM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

"Don't like Trump or the Republicans? It's the Democrats fault!"
I don't like the Democrats, and it's the Democrat's fault. The biggest reason to vote for Trump was "Hillary". Dems need to change that dynamic.

Quote:

Only an idiot or a liar looks at my posts and thinks I think in terms of "sides," like the world is made of two football teams and I root for one or the other - so I guess that tells me what you are.
Only an idiot wouldn't understand THEIR OWN POST, in which you clearly pointed to "sides", as in
Quote:

on the same side as your once hated forum nemesis
And then you double down on that concept, as in

Quote:

Auraptor is an old school republican and you're an old school soviet
dividing up the world into "sides", again.

I'm not on RAPPY's "side" and I doubt he is on mine. Neither one of is in the "team" that you think we are. You, OTOH, aren't even in the real world: you seem to be inhabiting some sort of paranoid fantasy-land. But you can't even figure out what and who you really need to look out for, so good luck with all that.




You're right - "sides" is too general and does a disservice to how much detail and cluster fuckerage is involved.
Having said that, I'm not surprised you can't see the humor in you and Auraptor having so much common ground after all these years. Strange bed fellows, the enemy of my enemy stuff.

==============================

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 2:05 PM

1KIKI

Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.



GEEBERS

I see you haven't learned anything about why you shouldn't be a troll from having your thread banned to troll country. Maybe you and Haken need to chat.




Goodbye, kind world (George Monbiot) - In common with all those generations which have contemplated catastrophe, we appear to be incapable of understanding what confronts us.

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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 4:39 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

You're right- GSTRING
Yes, I know. Thank you.

Now, what about N Korea? What would YOU do about the situation?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Wednesday, July 5, 2017 7:19 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:


Now, can we talk about something real?




NK seems to have a ICBM in the hanger, ready to be fitted w/ a nuke warhead.

That seems a tad discouraging.

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Tuesday, July 11, 2017 8:28 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN


Quote:

Originally posted by G:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The whole "dossier" thing seems to have died an ignominious death. There goes the "golden showers" narrative.

Comey said that Trump was not under investigation for "Russia". There goes the the whole "collusion" thing.

The DOJ warned America about believing anonymous leaks. There goes ... literally. everything that's been in the MSM for six months.

****

So, ignoring all of the ludicrous fake news based on equally-ludicrous (if not downright criminal) leaks, and ignoring Trump's equally-ludicrous tweets, where are are, really?

TTP and TTIP are dead. Good news!

The temporary travel-ban is in place until we can figure out a better "vetting" process. That's also good news.

The rate of illegal immigration is down sharply. More good news.

Our military is making a point in the South China Sea, Syria, and Afghanistan. Now, frankly, all I think that Trump is going to find is exactly how powerless our military is when facing a nation (or two) that are prepared to fight back. NOT good news.

The "repeal and replace" GOP effort is stalled out (for now) and the Dems have the votes to stall it our forever. Equivocal news, which COULD be good news if the Dems get their act together and come up with a better alternative.

The USA withdrew from the Paris Climate Accord. Not great news, but not terrible either, since Trump can't really prevent states and cities from continuing to participate.

The GOP Federal budget, like "repeal and replace", is fraught with internal divisions, and Trump's tax reform may be DOA. Probably good news, but we really do need to reduce the deficit.

So, overall, a pretty mixed bag, but not the disaster that you might think by reading the MSM.

Laughable - thanks for the funny.

Is G trying to say he is an ardent follower of FAKE News? And considers real News to be funny?

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Friday, July 14, 2017 2:53 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


One thing that I think is interesting is that Macron has changed France's position on "regime change" in Syria. It is now more important to destroy ISIS than to topple Assad.

One thought that I hadn't pursued .... but should ... is that France seems to be a major driver of "regime change" in the ME. It has been told to me that it was really France which aggressively pursued "regime change" in Libya, more so than the Obama, who just kind of halfheartedly went along with the plan. I've also been told that France was also one of the main instigators of "regime change" in Syria, and Obama was really just kind of halfheartedly going along with that too.

According to Hillary's emails, Libya's sin was to threaten to move beyond the petrodollar and the Euro.
Quote:

... historians of the 2011 NATO war in Libya will be sure to notice a few of the truly explosive confirmations contained in the new emails:....

an April 2011 email [archived here] sent to Hillary with the subject line “France’s client and Qaddafi’s gold” tells of less noble ambitions.

The email identifies French President Nicholas Sarkozy as leading the attack on Libya with five specific purposes in mind: to obtain Libyan oil, ensure French influence in the region, increase Sarkozy’s reputation domestically, assert French military power, and to prevent Gaddafi’s influence in what is considered “Francophone Africa.”

Most astounding is the lengthy section delineating the huge threat that Gaddafi’s gold and silver reserves, estimated at “143 tons of gold, and a similar amount in silver,” posed to the French franc (CFA) circulating as a prime African currency. In place of the noble sounding “Responsibility to Protect” (R2P) doctrine fed to the public, there is this “confidential” explanation of what was really driving the war ... https://www.foreignpolicyjournal.com/2016/01/06/new-hillary-emails-rev
eal-true-motive-for-libya-intervention
/



So, that explains France's desire to destroy Libya, but destroying Syria seems inexplicable - no benefit but many, many downsides for France. The only two nations that I know of that have a burning desire to topple so many Mideast governments are Israel and Saudi Arabia. ("A Clean Break" ... a major strategy paper written by GWB neocons Perle, Feith, and Wurmser for the Netanyahu government of 1996 ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Clean_Break:_A_New_Strategy_for_Securi
ng_the_Realm
details the destruction of Hezbollah, Iraq, Syria, and Iran. )

It seems that either Trump or circumstances have changed Macron's mind about the wisdom of overthrowing Assad.

****

Anyway, I'm trying to make sense of Trump's willingness to work with Russia and his abhorrence of Iran. Russia and Iran are major partners; I can't imagine how Trump thinks he's going to drive a wedge between them. The only thing he could offer Russia is the possibility of displacing Iran as the major partner in destroying ISIS. Maybe that's something everyone can get on board with, the kind of "cause du jour" since the Saudi creation (al Qaida) gets left alone.

I feel that old alliances, old assumptions, are breaking apart.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 14, 2017 3:10 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Turkey "Turns Away" From NATO, Buys Russian Advanced Missile System For $2.5 Billion

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-13/turkey-turns-away-nato-buys-r
ussian-advanced-missile-system-25-billion

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 14, 2017 7:09 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


We now know how the Trump-Russia scandal ends. The revelation that Donald Trump Jr. enthusiastically requested dirt on Hillary Clinton despite knowing it was coming from the Russian government has radically changed the argument being deployed by Trump’s defenders.

Until this week, it was: “There is no collusion with the Russian government.” Now it is: “Collusion with a foreign government is fine. Everyone does it. Let’s talk about the Clinton campaign’s collusion with the government of Ukraine?”

Trump’s defenders didn’t have to take this line. They could have argued that what Trump’s underlings did was terrible but that he knew nothing about it. (This defense saved Ronald Reagan during the Iran-Contra crisis) They could have argued that the meeting Trump Jr., Kushner, and Manafort held with Russian lawyer Natalia Veselnitskaya would have been terrible had it led to meaningful cooperation between Moscow and the Trump campaign but that it did not.

Either defense would have given Trump defenders like Sean Hannity and Newt Gingrich space to turn on Trump later on. If the Trump Jr. meeting was a “nothingburger” because President Trump didn’t know about it, then a future revelation that Trump did know about Russia collusion might force his defenders to admit he did something wrong. If the Trump Jr. meeting was a “nothingburger” because it didn’t lead anywhere, then a future revelation that the Trump campaign colluded with the Russian government in a more substantive, sustained way would be hard to dismiss.

By arguing that collusion with a foreign government is fine, Hannity and Gingrich have given themselves license to defend almost anything that now comes out.

Trump and his defenders have executed this maneuver before. Last fall, when the release of the Access Hollywood tape, combined with numerous allegations of sexual harassment, imperiled Trump’s campaign, his defenders began focusing on Bill Clinton’s sexual indiscretions. The Trump campaign even invited three Clinton accusers to the October 9 presidential debate. The implication was clear: Lots of powerful men sexually harass women. It didn’t disqualify Clinton; it shouldn’t disqualify Trump. No big deal.

It’s now easier to predict which conservatives will defend Trump to the end and which conservatives will not.

It comes down a simple question: Can Trump do anything wrong?

By shifting their argument to “everyone does it,” Hannity and Gingrich have essentially answered no, nothing Trump could have done would qualify as wrongdoing. It is, after all, always possible to find examples of other people doing bad things. Remember what Trump said in December 2015 when Joe Scarborough pushed him about Putin’s murder of journalists: “I think our country does plenty of killing also.”

www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/07/trump-collusion-jr-get-aw
ay/533457
/

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Friday, July 14, 2017 7:21 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Anyway, I'm trying to make sense of Trump's willingness to work with Russia and his abhorrence of Iran.

2 of Trump’s smartest advisers try to defend his foreign policy. Absurdity ensues.

Trump’s National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster and National Economic Council Director Gary Cohn put out an op-ed in the New York Times on Thursday morning, in which they aimed to provide a more detailed defense of Trump’s “America First” foreign policy vision in the wake of his recent meetings in Poland and at the G20 summit in Germany.

Except the whole exercise is laughable, from top to bottom. I mean that literally — there are a number of times, when you read it, that you might actually start laughing out loud at McMaster and Cohn’s chutzpah.

Read this paragraph, for instance, and try to keep a straight face: More at
www.vox.com/world/2017/7/13/15964376/hr-mcmaster-gary-cohn-new-york-ti
mes-bad


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Friday, July 14, 2017 10:35 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by second:
Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Anyway, I'm trying to make sense of Trump's willingness to work with Russia and his abhorrence of Iran.

2 of Trump’s smartest advisers try to defend his foreign policy. Absurdity ensues.

Trump’s National Security Adviser H.R. McMaster and National Economic Council Director Gary Cohn put out an op-ed in the New York Times on Thursday morning, in which they aimed to provide a more detailed defense of Trump’s “America First” foreign policy vision in the wake of his recent meetings in Poland and at the G20 summit in Germany.

Except the whole exercise is laughable, from top to bottom. I mean that literally — there are a number of times, when you read it, that you might actually start laughing out loud at McMaster and Cohn’s chutzpah.

Read this paragraph, for instance, and try to keep a straight face: More at
www.vox.com/world/2017/7/13/15964376/hr-mcmaster-gary-cohn-new-york-ti
mes-bad




Speaking of laughing, or trying not to. Macron. Did anyone see him struggling mightily to not bust out laughing during his and Trump's press conference on Thursday? When a reporter asked Trump about his fake friend "Jim" who said all the awful things about Paris a while ago? Or when Trump tried to place blame on Lynch for allowing the Russian lawyer into the US? "Somebody told me..." Who somebody? Or when he talked about reviving the Paris Accord, "I don't know, maybe we could work something out, and that would be good, or maybe not, and that will be good too..." Macron was practically crying he was holding it in so hard.

The Laughing Stock of the free world.

==============================

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Friday, July 14, 2017 10:58 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Anyway, I'm trying to make sense of Trump's willingness to work with Russia and his abhorrence of Iran. - SIGNY

2 of Trump’s smartest advisers try to defend his foreign policy. Absurdity ensues.- SECOND

The only other nation that might share this particular POV is Israel. There are a lot of Russian Jews in Israel who don't hate Russia, but Israeli Jews are very paranoid about Iran.

Maybe Trump is just too influenced by Zionist advisors?

Oh, the Trump Team is just spouting stuff to keep the globalists and neocons and liberals at bay (And how did the liberals wind up aligning with globalists and neocons anyway? Didn't you guys used to be antiwar, or something?) Do you really think that- given the reception that Trump has gotten from the deep state and the liberal media - that he or any of his close advisors will actually TELL you what he going to do?? Yanno, he's like Obama ... spout a line, and then do something else. If there's one thing I learned about our Presidents, its Watch what they do, don't listen to what they say


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 14, 2017 2:42 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Anyway, I'm trying to make sense of Trump's willingness to work with Russia and his abhorrence of Iran. - SIGNY

2 of Trump’s smartest advisers try to defend his foreign policy. Absurdity ensues.- SECOND

The only other nation that might share this particular POV is Israel. There are a lot of Russian Jews in Israel who don't hate Russia, but Israeli Jews are very paranoid about Iran.

Maybe Trump is just too influenced by Zionist advisors?

Oh, the Trump Team is just spouting stuff to keep the globalists and neocons and liberals at bay (And how did the liberals wind up aligning with globalists and neocons anyway? Didn't you guys used to be antiwar, or something?) Do you really think that- given the reception that Trump has gotten from the deep state and the liberal media - that he or any of his close advisors will actually TELL you what he going to do?? Yanno, he's like Obama ... spout a line, and then do something else. If there's one thing I learned about our Presidents, its Watch what they do, don't listen to what they say

We aren’t talking about smart people, particularly the guy in charge. He’s the one, after all, who thought he could put the squeeze on the FBI director to make the scandal disappear, then fire the director when he wouldn’t pledge his loyalty, then go on national television and brag that he fired the director because he wanted the Russia scandal to go away. It doesn’t get much dumber than that.

And at the moment of its greatest peril (so far anyway), Trump’s White House descends into disarray, backstabbing and outright terror as staffers start to lawyer up and wonder how they’re going to escape their current employment without being publicly disgraced (at a minimum).

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 14, 2017 2:58 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by G:

Speaking of laughing, or trying not to. Macron. Did anyone see him struggling mightily to not bust out laughing during his and Trump's press conference on Thursday? When a reporter asked Trump about his fake friend "Jim" who said all the awful things about Paris a while ago? Or when Trump tried to place blame on Lynch for allowing the Russian lawyer into the US? "Somebody told me..." Who somebody? Or when he talked about reviving the Paris Accord, "I don't know, maybe we could work something out, and that would be good, or maybe not, and that will be good too..." Macron was practically crying he was holding it in so hard.

The Laughing Stock of the free world.

==============================



Missed that, but am going to look for it on YouTube.






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Friday, July 14, 2017 3:07 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


You know who else was at the Trump Jr./Russian lawyer meeting? — a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence.

The Russian-born American lobbyist served in the Soviet military and emigrated to the U.S., where he holds dual citizenship. The Associated Press identified the lobbyist as Rinat Akhmetshin, and said he acknowledged attending the meeting, though he said it was not substantive. “I never thought this would be such a big deal, to be honest,” he told the AP.

Let’s not make too big a deal out of this. Lots of Russian attorneys with close ties to Putin probably invite former KGB agents to tag along when they meet with the brain trust of a presidential candidate to chat about state-supplied oppo on their opponent. I mean, it was summer and everyone was on vacation. This guy was probably the only translator with free time, amirite?

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/07/former-russian-spy-attended-tru
mp-jr-meeting
/

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Friday, July 14, 2017 3:39 PM

THGRRI


Yep, said so in the countdown thread. It's all over the news this morning. This gets sadder by the minute.



Quote:

Originally posted by second:
You know who else was at the Trump Jr./Russian lawyer meeting? — a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence.

The Russian-born American lobbyist served in the Soviet military and emigrated to the U.S., where he holds dual citizenship. The Associated Press identified the lobbyist as Rinat Akhmetshin, and said he acknowledged attending the meeting, though he said it was not substantive. “I never thought this would be such a big deal, to be honest,” he told the AP.

Let’s not make too big a deal out of this. Lots of Russian attorneys with close ties to Putin probably invite former KGB agents to tag along when they meet with the brain trust of a presidential candidate to chat about state-supplied oppo on their opponent. I mean, it was summer and everyone was on vacation. This guy was probably the only translator with free time, amirite?

www.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2017/07/former-russian-spy-attended-tru
mp-jr-meeting/







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Friday, July 14, 2017 5:14 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Good lord. The person who was in the meeting is a dual US citizen who's been living here for decades and working as an AMERICAN lobbyist. He was working as a lobbyist to overturn the Magnitsky Act,

Quote:

Contacted by NBC News, representatives for Kushner and Manafort declined to comment.

Alan Futerfas, the attorney retained by Donald Trump Jr., confirmed he has spoken to the individual.

"It’s very simple,” Futerfas said. "The person was described as a friend of Emin [Agalarov]’s and maybe as a friend of Natalia [Veselnitskaya]’s.”

Futerfas said he has talked with that individual who came to the meeting with Veselnitskaya. "He is a U.S. citizen. He told me specifically he was not working for the Russian government, and in fact laughed when I asked him that question.”

Futerfas confirmed that, “for the purpose of security or otherwise, the names were reviewed” but said Trump Jr. knew nothing about the man's background at the time of the meeting.

When asked about whether he had concerns, knowing what he knows now, Futerfas responded: “I have absolutely no concerns about what was said in that meeting.”



http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-14/former-soviet-counter-intelli
gence-officer-attended-meeting-don-jr-nbc-news


It seems that ANY contact with Russians is enough to set off alarm bells for you, unless it's Hillary doing to contacting, in which case it's all good. But nothing was said at the meeting about Hillary or about the campaign, so all it appears to be is an appeal by a Russian-born individual about an unrelated issue, which didn't even result in any action. Irrelevant.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 14, 2017 5:30 PM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Good lord. The person who was in the meeting is a dual US citizen who's been living here for decades and working as an AMERICAN lobbyist. He was working as a lobbyist to overturn the Magnitsky Act,




Quid pro quo SIG, or should I say comrade? He was lobbying on behalf of Russia. What was he offering as payment? The Magnitsky Act is sanctions.

In common law, quid pro quo indicates that an item or a service has been traded in return for something of value, usually when the propriety or equity of the transaction is in question. A contract must involve consideration: that is, the exchange of something of value for something else of value.

We'll help you win the election, you lift the sanctions. That's collusion, collaborating and conspiracy. The price Trump Jr set, or they offered for lifting the sanctions. The assistance of a foreign country to help him corrupt our elections. It's totally illegal according to our election laws and in my opinion, treasonous.




If you're not familiar with the Magnitsky Act, a 2012 U.S. law, here's the most important thing to understand: Russian President Vladimir Putin and everyone in his orbit hates it.

"A purely political, unfriendly act," Putin called it at the time, and he's been railing against it ever since.

Congress wanted to punish Russian human rights abusers by barring them from entering the U.S. This followed the 2009 death of Sergei Magnitsky, a Russian lawyer who died at age 37 in a Moscow prison where he was held — and allegedly beaten — after accusing Russian officials of massive tax fraud.

The law symbolized the deteriorating relations between the U.S. and Russia. Days after Congress passed it, the Russian parliament responded by banning American citizens from adopting Russian orphans.









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Friday, July 14, 2017 5:43 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:

http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-07-14/former-soviet-counter-intelli
gence-officer-attended-meeting-don-jr-nbc-news


It seems that ANY contact with Russians is enough to set off alarm bells for you, unless it's Hillary doing to contacting, in which case it's all good. But nothing was said at the meeting about Hillary or about the campaign, so all it appears to be is an appeal by a Russian-born individual about an unrelated issue, which didn't even result in any action. Irrelevant.

Did not set off any alarm bells for Texas Republican voters.

With very few exceptions, the reaction has taken two forms:

1) Some are arguing that Junior saying “I love it!” when Russian agents offer damaging information about your opponent doesn’t count as collusion unless it’s sustained (which it might have been, by the way – we just don’t know yet), or unless it determined the election outcome. By that standard, of course, Kim Philby did nothing wrong, since the West ended up winning the Cold War. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Philby

2) Others are basically saying that cooperating with a foreign dictator is no big deal if it protects us against real threats, like universal health care.

The important thing to notice is that almost the entire GOP has bought into one or both of these arguments. After all the flag-waving, all the attacks on Democrats’ patriotism, essentially the whole GOP turns out to be OK with the moral equivalent of treason if it benefits their side in domestic politics. Which raises the question: what happened to these people?

No matter how bad the Trump revelations get, most Republicans, both in the base and in Congress, will stick with him – because taking him down would be a victory for liberals, who are worse than anything.

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Friday, July 14, 2017 7:16 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Quid pro quo SIG
"This for that"? There was not "this" offered for "that".

Quote:

He was lobbying on behalf of Russia.
So? Lobbyists lobby. that's their job.

Quote:

What was he offering as payment?
Nothing, apparently!

Quote:

The Magnitsky Act is sanctions.
Again, so??




-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Friday, July 14, 2017 7:34 PM

THGRRI


No Quid pro quo SIG, then why meet dummy. As for the Magnitsky Act, it is sanctions for human rights violations. The orphan adoption part is Putin retaliating against those sanctions.





Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Quote:

Quid pro quo SIG
"This for that"? There was not "this" offered for "that".

Quote:

He was lobbying on behalf of Russia.
So? Lobbyists lobby. that's their job.

Quote:

What was he offering as payment?
Nothing, apparently!

Quote:

The Magnitsky Act is sanctions.
Again, so??








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Friday, July 14, 2017 7:35 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly




The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Friday, July 14, 2017 8:51 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


SECOND: whatever.

Nothing like focusing on the real important stuff, eh???


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 7:12 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
SECOND: whatever.

Nothing like focusing on the real important stuff, eh???

Do you mean Trump cracking under pressure? Imagine if Trump had been left the chain restaurant menu (with pictures of the food) of problems Obama found when he first showed up for work. A big war gone wrong all over the place. Millions of jobs gone. Banking system in free fall. Whole auto industry collapsing. Trillion dollar deficit. Frickin pirates attacking ships off the coast of Somalia!

Trump would be in triple bypass surgery by now. Nothing serious has happened and he's buckling under the pressure already. It shows.

Something will happen. Then we will see . . .

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Saturday, July 15, 2017 8:14 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


THUGR, I'm trying to understand your (and G's, and SECOND's) constant mountain-out-of-molehill-making.

I'd like you to consider an equivalent situation, one where you might have an entirely different emotional reaction. Instead of thinking about Donald Trump, whom you hate/fear, let's make this about Hillary, who you supported. This should clarify our (yours, mine, others) reactions to the situation: if you react negatively to one situation but not to an equivalent situation, then your response is subjective. If, OTOH, you react the same to both situations even tho different personalities are involved, then your reaction is objective.

So, please imagine along with me ....

Saudi Arabia is a well-known funder of radical jihadism generally and al Qaeda (and its affiliates) specifically. 19 of the 22 9-11 hijackers were Saudi; bin Laden was Saudi; and the Saudis have a human rights record that would make Putin blush. As such, Saudi Arabia is a terrorist-funding state.

Hillary had dealings with the Saudis for years. Her main personal assistant, Huma Abedin, is an American-born Saudi princess, who was raised for most of her life in Saudi Arabia. Hillary's chief intelligence pick, John Brennan, former acting CIA head, was stationed in Saudi Arabia for years, and rumors persist that he converted to Wahhabism at that time. Also, he has a history of lying to Congress about spying on THEM, and lying to the American people about the scope of (illegal) spying on Americans.

The Clintons themselves received $10 million from the Saudis, to their "Clinton Foundation" ... the rumored purpose of all of those "personal" 33,000 Hillary emails was the coordination of State Dept business to donor business. In addition, Hillary has been a stalwart enemy of the Saudi's enemies; actions by the US government - urged by the State Department - have left the Saudi jihadists in control of large swaths of the Middle East and North Africa. Now, none of this is "collusion" ... so far ... although the erasure of so many emails could fall under "obstruction".

Let's assume that Chelsea met with a Saudi-born American lobbyist and a Saudi-born lawyer. The lawyer CLAIMS to have dirt on Trump, but 2 minutes into the meeting it becomes clear that the real purpose of the meeting is to somehow give Saudi women the right to drive.

How would you feel about that?

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 10:11 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
THUGR, I'm trying to understand your (and G's, and SECOND's) constant mountain-out-of-molehill-making.

How would you feel about that?

I'd feel not a damn thing, unless Hillary denied that the 9/11 hijackers came from Saudi Arabia by saying "Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. Who can say for sure? The Deep State, the FBI, and the Intelligence Agencies are shifting the blame for 9/11 away from themselves for not protecting the World Trade Center. Instead the Deep State is blaming Saudi Arabia in a witch hunt. A. Witch. Hunt!"

Donald Trump, June 16, 2016, said: "We believe it was the DNC that did the 'hacking' as a way to distract from the many issues facing their deeply flawed candidate and failed party leader. Too bad the DNC doesn't hack Crooked Hillary's 33,000 missing emails."

Trump has made many untrue and misleading statements since then.
www.cnn.com/2017/06/21/politics/trump-russia-hacking-statements/index.
html


If Hillary had lied and misdirected about Saudi Arabia & 9/11 as much as Trump has about Russia & hacking, she'd be in trouble with me.

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

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Saturday, July 15, 2017 10:45 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


That's a false equivalence, SECOND. Far easier to identify bodies than to attribute hackers, so I don't know what your point is.

Also, Hillary DID manage to "disappear" 33,000 emails even after being subpoenaed, so in terms of "lies" and "dissembling" ... and "obstruction" ... I think she's the clear winner in that category.

So, what IS your point? That Trump engaged in a larger coverup than Hillary??? I personally think that he's a penny-ante player in that regard, compared to her. And if that's not your point, what IS your point?



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 10:50 AM

THGRRI


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
That's a false equivalence, SECOND. Far easier to identify bodies than to attribute hackers, so I don't know what your point is.

So, what IS your point? That Trump engaged in a larger coverup than Hillary??? I personally think that he's a penny-ante player in that regard, compared to her. And if that's not your point, what IS your point?




Hillary again, she's not president. The point SIG, is you're a Russian troll who wants the Russia story to go away. We are not, and want to connect the dots so we can understand exactly what happened.






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Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:08 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


Quote:

Hillary again, she's not president.- THUGR
But at the time that the "collusion" was supposedly happening, Trump wasn't President either.

You see, I think you're avoiding answering the question because you've tripped over one of the (many) logical landmines that lie buried in your brain. Now, if I were you, I would want to know, for my own peace of mind, if there were issues that I was reacting to so emotionally that I could be manipulated by them. And if there were, I would probably want to neutralize them so that I could see things more clearly.

So answer the question: If Chelsea has a meeting as described, would YOU consider it "collusion"? And why, or what not?

Quote:

The point SIG, is you're a Russian troll who wants the Russia story to go away. We are not, and want to connect the dots so we can understand exactly what happened.- SECOND
No, son, you don't want to understand exactly what happened, you want detailed confirmation of all of your darkest fears. Because if "exactly what happened" turned out to be a big nothing-burger, you would be extremely dissatisfied with the meal.

BTW - when Hillary obstructed justice by deleting her 33,000 "personal" emails so thoroughly that not even a forensic reconstruction of the disk could yield its results, and when Comey derailed the investigation by giving everyone .... even potential targets of investigation .... immunity, they WERE in positions of authority. If Mueller really wanted to do his job, he would loop back on those events too.


-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:17 AM

G

... fully loaded, safety off...


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
How would you feel about that?



T's response is the most salient one, but for the sake of discussion... and suspending my disbelief of many of your assumptions and not pointing out obvious differences between the 2 scenarios... this is one reason why I am not a registered Dem or Rep. I would never tie myself to one party or the other because there are deeply flawed people in both parties. IF everything you said were true it would be (obviously) bad.

Back to reality. But not as bad as Trump. Right NOW Trump is one of the biggest problems facing this country, not anyone named Clinton or Obama.

==============================

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Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:35 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


G, everything that I said about Hillary and the Saudis is true. Where points are speculated, I indicated that it was speculation. If you want, I can provide links to all of it, but this is a thought experiment, not an investigative post, so I'll save those for later.

As far as who is "the biggest problem", you have to determine first if there IS a problem, which is why I tried to pose a similar situation revolving around Hillary. If you judge that Chelsea's actions didn't rise to the level of collusion, then Jr's didn't either. So, in YOUR mind, there would be no problem.

I'll give you my reaction to this in a bit, but I want to hear what you think first about the direct comparison.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 11:44 AM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
G, everything that I said about Hillary and the Saudis is true. Where points are speculated, I indicated that it was speculation. If you want, I can provide links to all of it, but this is a thought experiment, not an investigative post, so I'll save those for later.

As far as who is "the biggest problem", you have to determine first if there IS a problem, which is why I tried to pose a similar situation revolving around Hillary. If you judge that Chelsea's actions didn't rise to the level of collusion, then Jr's didn't either. So, in YOUR mind, there would be no problem.

I'll give you my reaction to this in a bit, but I want to hear what you think first about the direct comparison.

I'll give Signym a thought experiment: Trump has the power to pardon everyone connected to Trump's campaign, including Putin and all Russian citizens. Does that universal pardon bring an end to this controversy? Are the leaders of the GOP pleased with Trump's statesman-like solution to the problem? Will the Democrats complain that a blanket pardon changes nothing?

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Saturday, July 15, 2017 12:52 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


What IS the point, if any, to that "thought experiment", SECOND? It's so vague I can't even figure out what you're trying to say.

-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 1:13 PM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.


So, nobody has any insight on their reaction to Chelsea v Jr.?

You see, this thought experiment works both ways, because rightwing Hillary-haters are as likely to distrust Hillary and her team as the current crop of "liberals" is likely to distrust Trump and HIS team*.

So, "pass" on one, pillory the other? Why, or why not? Any thoughts?

* BTW, this is how I check my reactions to see if I'm being even-handed: put a different set of characters in the same context, and see how much I react to the characters versus the context. Or put a similar issue into a different context; for example, when the Catholic Church wrote an anti-abortion encyclical about the sanctity of human life, during the Vietnam War. You could easily substitute "war" for "abortion" to see how the Catholic Church -using the same logic- should have developed an anti-war statement as well .... but never did. People are very "context sensitive". They see something in one light, but the same thing in a different context can look very different. That's how thoughts can become "siloed" .... they're never taken out for comparison. Moving different actors or different arguments into the same/similar context is a good test of whether or not you're being at all objective. That was the logic between the Syria v Ukraine comparison, which had the potential to bring up all kinds of uncomfortable comparison, which nobody wanted to do. It CAN be a challenge.



-----------

"Pity would be no more,
If we did not MAKE men poor"- William Blake

THUGR, JONESING FOR WWIII
All those guns 1kiki, are pointed towards your beloved Russia. All those cyber capabilities, pointed right at Russia. Thanks Putin, and get ready to duck.
I'll accept your apology any time, THUGR. But I know you're not man enough to give me one


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Saturday, July 15, 2017 1:32 PM

SECOND

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly


Quote:

Originally posted by SIGNYM:
What IS the point, if any, to that "thought experiment", SECOND? It's so vague I can't even figure out what you're trying to say.

What is your point of not understanding that Trump could pardon everyone involved? A Presidential pardon would be completely legal and there would be no more need to investigate anything about Russia because nothing could be punished. At that point Signym could begin complaining that Democrats are being partisans by insisting the Witch Hunt continue.

www.heritage.org/report/the-presidents-broad-power-pardon-and-commute

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