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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian


Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.

Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.

The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.

The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ?

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Why use means that blink in giant red letters that RUSSIA DID IT ? - SIGNY

GIANT RED MIDDLE FINGER
Today's political strategy keyword is Destabilization- GSTRING

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.

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So, how does Russian painting itself as The Bad Guy achieve the goal of "destabilzation"? It seems to me that the only nation that might destabilize is their own.- SIGNY

Do you think killing someone in someone else's backyard, in the open, almost mockingly, creates peace and calm? Putin controls what Russians think, so he's got a vice grip on his country's stability (I think that was what you were suggesting). - CC

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Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.

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We all get it kpo. This is another example of sig and kiki defending Russia. No surprise here. It's what they always do. They either do it outright or attempt to disparage what we know to be true.


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Originally posted by 1kiki:

Quote:

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https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-03-19/porton-down-scientists-under
-extreme-pressure-confirm-nerve-gas-russian


Porton Down Scientists Under Extreme Pressure To Confirm Nerve Gas As Russian

Authored by Craig Murray via The Strategic Culture Foundation,

I have now received confirmation from a well placed FCO source that Porton Down scientists are not able to identify the nerve gas as being of Russian manufacture, and have been resentful of the pressure being placed on them to do so.

Porton Down would only sign up to the formulation “of a type developed by Russia” after a rather difficult meeting where this was agreed as a compromise formulation.

The Russians were allegedly researching, in the “Novichok” programme a generation of nerve agents which could be produced from commercially available precursors such as insecticides and fertilisers. This substance is a “novichok” in that sense. It is of that type. Just as I am typing on a laptop of a type developed by the United States, though this one was made in China.

To anybody with a Whitehall background this has been obvious for several days.

The government has never said the nerve agent was made in Russia, or that it can only be made in Russia. The exact formulation “of a type developed by Russia” was used by Theresa May in parliament, used by the UK at the UN Security Council, used by Boris Johnson on the BBC yesterday and, most tellingly of all, “of a type developed by Russia” is the precise phrase used in the joint communique issued by the UK, USA, France and Germany yesterday: This use of a military-grade nerve agent, of a type developed by Russia, constitutes the first offensive use of a nerve agent in Europe since the Second World War.

When the same extremely careful phrasing is never deviated from, you know it is the result of a very delicate Whitehall compromise. My FCO source, like me, remembers the extreme pressure put on FCO staff and other civil servants to sign off the dirty dossier on Iraqi WMD, some of which pressure I recount in my memoir Murder in Samarkand. She volunteered the comparison to what is happening now, particularly at Porton Down, with no prompting from me.

Separately I have written to the media office at OPCW to ask them to confirm that there has never been any physical evidence of the existence of Russian Novichoks, and the programme of inspection and destruction of Russian chemical weapons was completed last year.

Did you know these interesting facts?

OPCW inspectors have had full access to all known Russian chemical weapons facilities for over a decade – including those identified by the “Novichok” alleged whistleblower Mirzayanov – and last year OPCW inspectors completed the destruction of the last of 40,000 tonnes of Russian chemical weapons.

By contrast the programme of destruction of US chemical weapons stocks still has five years to run

Israel has extensive stocks of chemical weapons but has always refused to declare any of them to the OPCW. Israel is not a state party to the Chemical Weapons Convention nor a member of the OPCW. Israel signed in 1993 but refused to ratify as this would mean inspection and destruction of its chemical weapons. Israel undoubtedly has as much technical capacity as any state to synthesise “Novichoks”.

Until this week, the near universal belief among chemical weapons experts, and the official position of the OPCW, was that “Novichoks” were at most a theoretical research programme which the Russians had never succeeded in actually synthesising and manufacturing. That is why they are not on the OPCW list of banned chemical weapons.

Porton Down is still not certain it is the Russians who have apparently synthesised a “Novichok”. Hence “Of a type developed by Russia”. Note developed, not made, produced or manufactured.

It is very carefully worded propaganda. Of a type developed by liars.

This post prompted another old colleague to get in touch. On the bright side, the FCO have persuaded Boris he has to let the OPCW investigate a sample. But not just yet. The expectation is the inquiry committee will be chaired by a Chinese delegate. The Boris plan is to get the OPCW also to sign up to the “as developed by Russia” formula, and diplomacy to this end is being undertaken in Beijing right now.

I don’t suppose there is any sign of the BBC doing any actual journalism on this?

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In a small way I sympathize with the scientists. During a toxic spill, when I was analyzing air samples in the middle of the night to determine what and how much was in the air, I got a call from one of the honchos with his hair on fire telling me - don't calibrate! don't run QC! just give me numbers! So I said sure, OK, and went and calibrated and ran the QC I needed to. In my case, I wasn't being told to skew the results, just shortcut the process that verifies the numbers are accurate. (Good thing I ran the proper procedure. One of the toxic compounds showed up with phenomenally high results, and that number was used to determine risk and further sampling, and eventually went to court. But my evidence was solid.)

But this full court press to make scientists arrive at a predetermined result - does that remind anyone of Iraq's phantom WMDs? It sure smells the same to me.

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Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.

-------------------------------------------------------

"Objective truths are established by evidence. Personal truths by faith. Political truths by incessant repetition."

Russia's and Assad's War Crimes in Syria - http://fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60278
Syrian regime collusion with ISIS - http://www.fireflyfans.net/mthread.aspx?tid=60521

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Originally posted by kpo:
Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?

Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?

No one help Siggy and kiki with the answer. They can get this.

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Why would Russia assassinate someone and leave a calling card?
Why does anyone (e.g. the mob) assassinate someone and leave calling cards?- KRAPO

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
But what would they gain by assassinating a local cop

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In other words, KRAPO, you've run out of anything relevant to say?

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Gotten to THUGR territory, where you post a cartoon instead of words

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there's no reason to believe that Russia was the ONLY possible source.

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Supposedly, the UK has refused to turn over any evidence or any samples to Russia for parallel analysis

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That's the only honest, above-board way to resolve these kinds of problems. Is the UK not willing to conduct an honest investigation capable of withstanding transparency?

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and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.

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Originally posted by kpo:

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and also refused to let Russian investigators talk to, or even see, the victims.

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Lol, just what the Skripals need. "Good morning Mr and Mrs Skripal, some agents of the Russian government are here."

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.

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Originally posted by THGRRI:
27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.

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That was a pretty awesome display wasn't it? "Hey Russia, stop being the child at the picnic! The grown-ups have had enough!"

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Yep, solidarity is a good message to send. Yet what the Russian people don't care about, is when it is the oligarchs money that is targeted. They know it was pilfered from them. To them expulsions are targeted at Russia itself. It allows for an, it's us against them mentality. That helps Putin. More sanctions against the pilfered money is what works best. Those sanctions separate the Russian peoples interests from the Russian governments interests.

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I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.

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27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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27 countries pledge to kick out Russian diplomats over poisoning of ex-spy. You're and kiki's defense of Russia means nothing Sig.

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And this is the perfect reason why Russia/ Putin would NOT want to poison anyone in another nation. You're kind of making my case for me, THUGR, if you hadn't noticed. But of course you wouldn't.

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Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

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Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig

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I do, I think Putin's that stupid. I think you are as well.


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Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig

I do- THUGR

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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Straightforwardly, Putin Finally Went Too Far.- SECOND

Oh, baloney. Neither you nor I think that Putin and his administration are really that stupid. sig

I do- THUGR

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Then why are you so paranoid about Putin?

In any case, everybody knows you're the biggest idiot on the board, so your opinion doesn't count.

Heil Hitler!

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I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad. Nothing paranoid about that. You see him as innocent and you post on his behalf every time. We all know why comrade.


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I see Putin as guilty as charged, when it comes to everything that's been reported about him in the press here and abroad- THUGR

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I guess neither of you think much about the accused being allowed to examine the evidence? The norms of the justice system are meaningless to you?

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If this was such a super-secret chemical (category of chemicals, really) then how did the UK lab manage to identify and name it so quickly? How did they know what it was? How did they know what name to give it?

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You'll notice that they didn't say "of a type developed ONLY by Russia".

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So you can't put a "commercial" name to a chemical do that unless you have a standard to compare it to... and those exemplars (or the mass spectral library of these compounds) existed in the Porton Down lab.

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Originally posted by captaincrunch:

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
And back to my original point: What would be Russia's purpose in poisoning a has-been Russian spy, considering all of the fuss, drama, and rabid anti-Russian reaction among (some of the) NATO nations? I can't see any good coming of it, for Russia. OTOH, it fits into the western deep state's agenda quite nicely. For them, they get to whip up even more anti-Putin fervor; pressure Germany into abandoning Nord Stream II; and for May, she gets to distract from the clusterfuck that is the Brexit negotiations. Yanno, these deep-state-types, when all else fails, they start a war, and this looks like yet another excuse to provoke Russia into doing something stupid in return.

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I couldn't see any benefit for Russia to invade Ukraine/Crimea with troops without insignias like that would fool anyone, but that didn't stop Putin from doing it. Sometimes people just make mistakes.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is.

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I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY

And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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I can understand Russia wanting Crimea, but not the rest of Ukraine. I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in thinking to figure out what the real reason is. - SIGNY

And I'll leave it to you, as an exercise in ethics, to figure out why taking Crimea was an International Crime.- GSTRING

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I guess Kosovo was too.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
Three points, KRAPO

The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.

Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing" with their pet neo-Nazis running around, in government, incorporated into the armed forces, and dragging people off buses and beating them up or burning them en masse. I guess you "forgot" that part.

What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any (except that one secession was promoted by the west and one by the east), but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain.

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First let me say again we see sig present a Putinish point of view. Secondly sig, Kosovo declared independence. Crimea was annexed by Russia. Big difference...


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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.

Second ... Heil Hitler!

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OK a quiz.

Who here hates Jews? that would be you.

Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.

Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...

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First, let me say that we see SIG presenting FACTS.
Second ... Heil Hitler!

- SIGNY

OK a quiz.
Who here hates Jews? that would be you.

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Who here is attacking the rule of law and media in this country? Something Hitler did in Germany? Again, that would be you.

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Who didn't respond to my challenge of the so called facts you posted. You didn't...

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.

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Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"

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What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any

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The mass spectral libraries of "Novichok" were publish in the west. In the United States, to be precise. So somebody here was able to make this class of compounds in order to acquire and publish the results.-SIGNY

A Soviet scientist who worked on the Novichok program turned whistleblower and published a report in the West about it. Any specific evidence that the US has manufactured Novichok agents?- KPO

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Russia did not "start a war" in Donbas. You seem to have that backwards, as it was the Kiev regime that started taking steps towards "ethnic cleansing"-SIGNY

"Little green men" started running around in Donbas in early April 2014, storming police stations and whatnot. By this time Kremlin propaganda had been screaming about Ukrainian ethnic cleansing or persecution campaigns against ethnic Russians for months - but this was all fantastical, exaggerated bullshit. Classic propaganda. I remember you sharing some of it. It was the dubious grounds Putin needed to start his "civil" war.- KPO

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What is the difference between Kosovo and Crimea? I fail to see any but you seem to think they're not the same, so explain. SIGNY

Haha. Well it's not because they're not obvious, and it's not because they haven't been pointed out to you.- KPO

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The UK government’s presentation on the Salisbury incident, which was repeatedly cited in recent days as an “ultimate proof” of Russia’s involvement into Skripal’s assassination attempt, was made public earlier today.

This 6-paged PDF is a powerful evidence of another intellectual low of British propaganda machine. Open it and you can tell that substantially it makes only two assertions on the Skripal case, and both are false:
Salisbury incident UK government presentation March 22, 2018 Skripal


First. Novichok is a group of agents developed only by Russia and not declared under the CWC” – a false statement.

Novichok was originally developed in the USSR (Nukus Lab, today in Uzbekistan, site completely decommissioned according to the US-Uzbekistan agreement by 2002). One of its key developers, Vil Mirzayanov, defected to the United States in 1990s, its chemical formula and technology were openly published in a number of chemical journals outside Russia. Former top-ranking British foreign service officer Craig Murray specifically noted this point on March 17:

I have now been sent the vital information that in late 2016, Iranian scientists set out to study whether novichoks really could be produced from commercially available ingredients. Iran succeeded in synthesising a number of novichoks. Iran did this in full cooperation with the OPCW and immediately reported the results to the OPCW so they could be added to the chemical weapons database.

This makes complete nonsense of the Theresa May’s “of a type developed by Russia” line, used to parliament and the UN Security Council. This explains why Porton Down has refused to cave in to governmental pressure to say the nerve agent was Russian. If Iran can make a novichok, so can a significant number of states.

Second. “We are without doubt that Russia is responsible. No country bar Russia has combined capability, intent and motive. There is no plausible alternative explanation” – an outstading example of self-hypnosis. None of the previous items could even remotely lead to this conclusion. The prominent British academician from the University of Kent Prof. Richard Sakwa has elaborated on this on March 23 the following way:

Rather than just the two possibilities outlined by Theresa May, in fact there are at least six, possibly seven. The first is that this was a state-sponsored, and possibly Putin-ordered, killing… This version simply does not make sense, and until concrete evidence emerges, it should be discounted…

The second version is rather more plausible, that the authorities had lost control of its stocks of chemical weapons. In the early 1990s Russian facilities were notoriously lax, but since the 2000s strict control over stocks were re-imposed, until their final destruction in 2017. It is quite possible that some person or persons unknown secreted material, and then conducted some sort of vigilante operation…

The third version is the exact opposite: some sort of anti-Putin action by those trying to force his policy choices…

The fourth version is similar, but this time the anti-Putinists are not home-grown but outsiders. Here the list of people who would allegedly benefit by discrediting Russia is a long one. If Novichok or its formula has proliferated, then it would not be that hard to organise some sort of false flag operation. The list of countries mentioned in social media in this respect is a long one. Obviously, Ukraine comes top of the list, not only because of motivation, but also because of possible access to the material, as a post-Soviet state with historical links to the Russian chemical weapons programme. Israel has a large chemical weapon inventory and is not a party to the OPCW; but it has no motivation for such an attack (unless some inadvertent leak occurred here). Another version is that the UK itself provoked the incident, as a way of elevating its status as a country ‘punching above its weight’. The British chemical weapons establishment, Porton Down, is only 12 kilometres from Salisbury. While superficially plausible, there is absolutely no evidence that this is a credible version, and should be discounted.

The fifth version is a rather more elaborate development of the previous point. There is circumstantial evidence, a version outlined by the Daily Telegraph, that Skripal may have had a hand in devising Christopher Steele’s ‘Trump Dossier’. The British agent who originally recruited Skripal, Pablo Miller, lives in Salisbury, and also has connections with Orbis International, Steele’s agency in London. In this version, Skripal is still working in one way or another with MI6, and fed stories to Steele, who then intervenes massively in US politics, effectively preventing the much-desired rapprochement between Trump and Putin. Deep anger at the malevolent results of the Steele and British intervention in international politics and US domestic affairs prompts a revenge killing, with the demonstration effect achieved by using such a bizarre assassination weapon.

The sixth version is the involvement of certain criminal elements, who for reasons best known to themselves were smuggling the material, and released it by accident. In this version, the Skripals are the accidental and not intended victims. There are various elaborations of this version, including the activities of anti-Putin mobsters. One may add a seventh version here, in which Islamic State or some other Islamist group seeks to provoke turmoil in Europe.

What follows is even more depressing. Slide 3 is dedicated to some sort of anatomy lesson:


Slide 4 seemingly represents a real “honey trap”. Just look at it:


The authors of this “report” mixed up a very strange cocktail of multitype allegations, none of which have ever been proven or recognized by any responsible entity (like legal court or dedicated official international organization). Of course we are not committed to argue on every cell, but taking e.g. “August 2008 Invasion of Georgia” we actually can’t understand why the EU-acknowledged Saakashvili’s aggression against South Ossetia is exposed here as an example of “Russian malign activity”…

Have you totally lost your minds, ladies & gentlemen from the Downing Street?

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Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:

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T

Sig you keep posting as though it's being read by the serious posters in these threads. The posters here who rely on facts. It's not, because nobody gives a shit what a Russian troll has to say.

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Heil Hitler!

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I'm sure your mother would be very proud.


T