Matrix vs. Firefly by reginaroadie

GENERAL DISCUSSIONS

Matrix vs. Firefly

POSTED BY: REGINAROADIE
UPDATED: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 20:09
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Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:23 AM

I was just looking over the new ten disc Matrix trilogy DVD set I bought for my brother for Xmas, and it got me to thinking about the Matrix trilogy again.

To tell you the truth, even though I'm a 19 year old guy, I'm not really that big of a fan of THE MATRIX. I thought the first was just enjoyable, but at it's core it was a techno knock-off of the far superior DARK CITY. And the sequels I wasn't dissapointed with because I had no real expectations of them. And I know that there's been many different reasons as to why a lot of people didn't like it, but I think it's a bit simpler.

The reason I never liked it was because it was emotionless. Sure the action and sfx was cool, and that it had a lot of philosophical waxing, but the thing that always got me was that the characters didn't really have an emotional center. I thought it was funny that these people were just as sterile and emotionless as the machines and agents they were trying to defeat.

Now on the flipside, you have FIREFLY. And I think that one of the key qualities to it is that it actually has emotion in it. These characters are very emotional and there is a real emotional attachment to these characters and their situations. There is more emotion, humor and actual human connection in just three minutes of the series than there is the entire Matrix trilogy.

Which leads me to a concern of mine about SERENITY. Now I know everyone reading this will try to bring everyone they know and their grandmother to the BDM, but a cult audience can only bring so much. If SERENITY is to soar, the uninitiated and common masses will have to push this hard to make it the new STAR WARS or MATRIX. And if the most popular sci-fi franchise in the last five or so years is a barren, emotionless wire-fu trilogy that's also a Philosophy 100 lesson, how can we be sure that a movie based on a cult sci-fi western that didn't even last half a season is going to fly at the box office?

Of course, said public that embraced THE MATRIX then abandoned it, so maybe SERENITY will become like the next STAR TREK. They're hoping for a trilogy, but why stop there? I always thought you could make a movie focusing on each of the characters, so you could have nine movies theoretically.

What do you think?

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:56 AM

NIKNAK

Star Wars (4, 5 and 6) were emotional - that's one of the reasons they were so good. I think Serenity will stay true to the spirit of Firefly - it'll just be bigger.

I really like the first Matrix film but though the second two were poor. They could have made a good trilogy if they'd planned it from the start. The agents should have always been stronger until the final film. It just wasn't as tense once Neo was like Superman.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 12:00 PM

ZEEK

I agree the Matrix was fairly emotionless. When characters died the others were usually like "I am sad now." "I too am sad." "I am angry. *clears throat* grrr."

Serenity will not become the next Matrix. It doesn't have the same qualities. It's not a special effects marvel with action packed, over the top fights. At least Firefly didn't.

However, I almost wonder if we'd feel the same if it did become a hit. Right now we are a tight, intelligent, friendly community. The second it becomes popular to be a browncoat we will get trolls and fanboys gallore. We will also lose our status (not the right word) with the stars. They will be come mega-stars and there will be throngs of fans saying they've loved them since the start. When we'll all know that we were the ones writing to Fox and buying cakes. It's sorta sad to know that we have to let our baby leave the nest and enter the full world for it to grow. We fall into obscurity. While the show will be allowed to continue.

Somebody say something inspirational and happy before I start questioning whether I want Serenity to be successful.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:08 PM

SIMONWHO

Mmm. Tricky isn't it? We need the mass market to love Firefly and yet...

My bet is that they'll swamp some of the bigger places (like the official site) but fireflyfans.net should be okay.

Don't forget, the Matrix has faded from the public consciousness very quickly (amazing how two really bad sequels will do that for you) and people are always willing to accept new ideas in sci-fi.

My own personal dread is the "If you liked *******, then you'll love Serenity!" campaign/write up that is bound to happen. My money is on Back to the Future part III being mentioned. Not that it's a bad movie but it has practically nothing to do with Firefly except for the sci-fi/western thing.

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:16 PM

STILLSHINY

Unfortunately the Matrix is one of those movies that should have never had a sequel. I liked the mystery of the first one. Joss is a much better storyteller, he won't compromise for the sake of a buck. Up unitil the Matrix the brothers had only done what? Bound? Come one, Not much of a track record there. Firefly surpasses MAtrix in so many ways. Yes both are Science fiction, but I actually want the Verse to be real, the Matrix...no so much. Ok my two bits said

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"Two roads diverged in a wood, and I took the road less traveled by and they CANCELLED MY FRIKKIN' SHOW. I totally shoulda took the road that had all those people on it. Damn." --Joss

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:26 PM

GROUNDED

"They could have made a good trilogy if they'd planned it from the start."

Apparently, they did. But I don't know that for sure. Makes you wonder if the first (which I think is a classic) was a complete fluke..

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 1:58 PM

ZOID

Zeek wrote:

Quote:
...Somebody say something inspirational and happy before I start questioning whether I want Serenity to be successful.

The original Matrix was successful because it challenged our perception of reality. If a simulation is totally immersive and convincing, what separates it from reality? The problem the last two films in the trilogy faced was the removal of that aspect; there was no more mystery left in the Matrix construct; it lost its 'possible reality' status and became a place they only visited on day trips. ...Just in case you were wondering why the concluding two movies left you feeling so empty, but couldn't quite put your finger on it...

Serenity, on the other hand, is not about the nature of reality (and it damned well better never turn into that, either): It is about the nature of being human. At its core are these lonely and disparate people -- with polarized beliefs and attitudes -- who manage somehow to become a family. The uniting force for them is the Firefly-class cargo ship, Serenity.

For the doubters, the uncomprehending and the plain old 'show-me' types, a little evidence:

Think about how everyone came to be on the ship. Mal bought the ship because he was a misfit in Alliance society; the ship was his escape. Zoe, for whatever reason, follows him, not because he is 'her man', but because she owes him a (undisclosed) debt of loyalty. Wash comes to Serenity because -- regardless his magnetic personality, sophisticated demeanor and very fine moustache -- women avoid him like the plague; he figures on Serenity, he'll have a captive audience with no where to run, no where to hide; turns out, he figured right. Jayne comes to the crew through an act of betrayal, the ultimate loner whose only loyalty is to loot. Book is first seen wandering the dusty streets with all his worldly possessions in tow, looking to go only his God knows where. Kaylee is a misfit tomboy grease-monkey who dreams of being a fairy tale princess, who only needs to tell her parents that she's leaving her home planet (probably for good); that's how much she is alone. River and Simon have each other, but not as they were when they were children; she is too badly damaged, and all that remains is the bond of love; furthermore, they have irretrievably abandoned all they once knew as 'home' and 'family'. Which should leave us with Inara, if my math is correct. She is aboard Serenity because she is undergoing some crisis. She gave up her path to career excellence, outcasting herself to the Rim aboard a cargo hauler, not even a luxury cruiser.

All of these people are bent, bruised or broken in some way that matters. They all have disparate viewpoints. Here are only a few:

Jayne has no comprehension of Mal's code of honor. Inara sided with the Alliance and sells her body, neither of which Mal can abide. Zoe wants children; Wash doesn't. Wash wants to be alone with Zoe; Zoe has a debt of loyalty to Mal. Book is a man of deep, godly devotion; Mal is an apostate. Kaylee is so optimistic that she can't be understood by the more realistic crewmates, let alone the cynics like Mal and Jayne. She can only be accepted, like a (beneficent) force of nature. No one -- not even River -- knows what River's essential nature is. Everyone on the boat knows what a social clutz Simon is; he can't even get out of his own way without saying something awkward, condescending or outright insulting.

Yet, these people become a family in spite of, because of these differences. All they need is a blessed space, a temple, a home. Serenity is that space. In aviation, there have been some special aircraft, universally loved by those who flew them, regardless that there were more expensive or technologically advanced designs. Those 'gee-whiz' marvels just weren't as dependable and fun to fly. The Firefly is one of those universally loved and 'special' craft. I suspect that part of her magic is in her living spaces and common areas. They put people in contact with each other in such a way that they are not crowded, neither are they allowed the space to be aloof. Just the right mix of privacy and forced intimacy...

Which is why Serenity, our BDM, will succeed. It touches something human inside all of us. With Joss as our personal Mal Reynolds, captaining us through the gauntlet of perils that beset traditional Hollywood entertainments, we need not fear. He knows our story, our heroes; he knows the course and he will take us home safely.

I would like to close on this thought: FireflyFans.net is our Firefly-class cargo hauler. It's a space that -- unlike fancier, more bells-and-whistles models -- provides us with just the right mix of elbow room and forced intimacy to allow all of us, even with our disparate beliefs, temperaments and viewpoints, to come together as a family. If the new folks that come onto our crew following the success of the BDM misbehave, we'll just hit 'em upside the head with a spanner (wrench) and toss 'em into the airlock 'til they promise to understand the 'crew concept', and the concept of family. Y'all are my crew. Nobody messes with my crew.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
Where are you Gunhand? Come on home, hombre...
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:06 PM

MALICIOUS

(Mal-licious unfolds her arms, nudges Jefe with her elbow, and, with a bit of a sneer, says)

"Look how long that post is. And not one damn thing in it about ME. Just some guy who hasn't been seen in months. Ingrate."

(Jefe shakes head in commiseration)

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:21 PM

ZOID

'Lish:

Damn, baby, you're fast! I just posted that and was still checking spelling and you're already flaming me...

Mmmm-a-licious wrote:

Quote:
...Look how long that post is. And not one damn thing in it about ME...

Oops! My bad! How's this?

"Mutant Enemy (ME), Joss' erstwhile TV production company are still part of the family. We are all looking forward to TM's new series, 'The Inside'."

It's kinda tough to get ME into every topic, without sounding forced...

Revisionally,

-zed

P.S.
Have I told you how lovely you are, lately?

What color is your hair this hour?

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:31 PM

MALICIOUS

No. Brown. (Mal-licious, arms still crossed, sniffs and turns away)

Mal-licious

Co-Holder of the Red Bell from Hell

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:38 PM

REGINAROADIE

It's funny you should mention Back to the Future 3. Not only is it my fave of the three BBTF movies, but it's actually the movie that made me want to be a filmmaker. I saw it when I was about five or six, and the train sequence to me is more thrilling than most of the action movies I've seen combined.

Whenever I hear someone verbally bitchslap that movie, I'm like Mal in an Alliance friendly bar.

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 2:52 PM

DROCCULARI

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
Zeek wrote:
Serenity, on the other hand, is not about the nature of reality (and it damned well better never turn into that, either)

Unfortunately, I think you're wrong. In Serenity we're going to find out that River is, in fact, a fellow inmate inhabiting the same asylum as Buffy, and the Firefly verse is her schizophrenic fantasy. Further, in the yet to be announced Buffy movie, we will find out that a few year earlier Buffy was sufficiently aware of River to incorporated her into the Sunnydale world as none other than Oz!

Or maybe not...

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 4:00 PM

BADGERSHAT

The Matrix flicks were basically knock offs of Dark City and Tron, with a whole lot of philosophic psychobabble thrown in

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 7:46 PM

NEEDLESEYE

Prepare for a brief rant..
The Matrix trilogy failed for me because I went to the 2nd movie thinking even if the story wasn't great , at least the cgi would be good.
Well, it was so bad I was actually insulted that the producers would think what they put on the screen was acceptable to the masses. That's right,insulted!It was a visual piece of caca! I've seen better renderings done on an Amiga!
Thats right, I said an Amiga!
I never bothered to see the final movie. rant over.

Anyway, I just can't think of Matrix and Serenity in the same class. I understand your concern though. We do want a trilogy if Joss can get it done. At least we know he won't go back and change the series footage 25 years later and repackage it.
About the boards, I've wondered about that too.
In fact after being at cons and informing people about the BDM and our fandom and how to join, visit sites etc., I worry about trolling and the like. Some days I don't want to share our shiny sites at all! I dont think anyone hasn't wondered what will happen.

I'd just like to mention, I find it diffucult to post after the Zoid because, well, theres not a whole hell of a lot left to say. :D (that would be a complement)
...except your bit about Wash...

Quote:

Wash comes to Serenity because -- regardless his magnetic personality, sophisticated demeanor and very fine moustache -- women avoid him like the plague; he figures on Serenity, he'll have a captive audience with no where to run, no where to hide; turns out, he figured right.

What a perfect description.

I am Nathan's biggest Flan
Keeper of Jayne's goggles. 8)

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Thursday, December 9, 2004 11:00 PM

FARSCAPEPKWARS

Serenity must stay true, because its already great it doesn't need all those gimmicks like Lucas did with star wars

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Friday, December 10, 2004 3:55 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
.except your bit about Wash...

Quote:

Wash comes to Serenity because -- regardless his magnetic personality, sophisticated demeanor and very fine moustache -- women avoid him like the plague; he figures on Serenity, he'll have a captive audience with no where to run, no where to hide; turns out, he figured right.

What a perfect description.

What a perfect description? How do ya figure ? Not that I'm discounting this assesment, but just where is it that we find Wash having trouble w/ the ladies? He's a pilot, for starters, Everyone KNOWS that behind pro athletes and entertainers, pilots are tops on the babe magnet meter. Wash , at least to Mals knowledge, is highly sought after for his pilot skills. And Wash has been out and about some in the 'verse, so I find it somewhat a stretch to think that the ONLY reason he takes the job on Serenity is to get cozy w/ this yet unknown warrior woman? Yeah, he does seem a bit taken w/ her, but hey... as I said before..he's a pilot! He prob thinks she digs him, just because ......he's a pilot!

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 10, 2004 5:23 AM

ZOID

AURaptor:

There's an old joke told in USAF ATC circles:

Q: "What's the difference between a porcupine and an F-15?"

A: "With a porcupine, the pricks are on the outside."

This joke is an adaptation from an original one, which assassinates the character of Porsche drivers.

And no, I don't think women were hopping into Ho's bed based strictly on him being a pilot. Didja see the moustache? Hoban's an incurable nerd! (*zoid self-consciously sweeps his toy dinosaur collection into desk drawer*) He's a luh-hoo...zuh-her! (*zoid holds index and middle finger to his forehead, in the shape of a vee*)

Illustratively,

zoid

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Friday, December 10, 2004 6:14 AM

CYBERSNARK

River summed up the whole Matrix theme in "Objects in Space."

Quote:
MAL: Am I dreaming?
RIVER: We all are.

River isn't "broken." She's a Lucid.

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
He's a luh-hoo...zuh-her!

Joss help me, for a split second I thought you were speaking Chinese.

Perhaps there is such a thing as too much Firefly. . .

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 6:22 AM

GORRAMREAVERS

The Matrix WAS a planned triogy. I thought the first was good. The second was really fast paced and that highway sequence was awesome. The 3rd was a big let down.

One thing I noticed watching Ariel was when Mal or Wash (cant remember) asked kaylee to find the building schematics to give them directions was very Matrix'y.

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Friday, December 10, 2004 8:00 AM

MAUGWAI

Everybody's hatin' on the Matrix. I loved the movies, all of them. I did not love 2 until I saw 3 and understood what 2 was trying to say. You have to watch the last two as a pair to really understand it.

I think a lot of people went into those movies expecting them to show you a hero like the first one, overcoming some great challenge and scoring some great big victory. And the Wackowskis are to blame for that. They mislead us as to the direction of these films. Because Neo is not the hero everybody was expecting, and the story didn't have the big glorious victory we were all waiting for. Instead, it questioned our purpose for being, what makes us human and our willingness to sacrifice for others. And it pissed people off, especially when they didn't get the point of it all.

And that's why I love those movies, flaws and all. It challenged our expectations the way Firefly does. It just used a whole lot more CGI.

"Dear diary, today I was pompous and my sister was crazy."

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Friday, December 10, 2004 12:20 PM

CORNCOBB

Love your insightful posts Zoid. very thought provoking. I feel i understand the show and the characters even better now

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Friday, December 10, 2004 12:51 PM

ZOID

The dreaded, two-headed post...

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Friday, December 10, 2004 12:51 PM

ZOID

Corncobb:

Thank you.

An added thought, just for you: The reason Firefly had a special chemistry between its actors may be related to Joss' insistence that the set be constructed as a continuous space, rather than a bunch of one-room sets. Serenity becomes a confinement and a focus for the actors playing those characters; she becomes 'the ninth character', as she has been described, because she is physically whole. The physical act of running from one end of Serenity to the other creates a greater sense of realism for the actors than, say, exiting the infirmary like you're going somewhere, and then standing amid the cables and properties for the call to 'cut'.

It may or may not be the first time such a set has been built and used, but it is certainly not the standard order of business in Hollywood. Joss has gotten some wonderful performances from his actors on that set though, and I believe Serenity was his accomplice.

Those who fear Joss' inexperience as a movie director would do well to remember this: He's no run-of-the-mill storyteller. I expect a different kind of movie than standard Hollywood fare, every bit as emotionally gripping as the series. Serenity was made whole again, for the movie. With the extra money, some of the rough, search-the-props-department look should be gone, too.

Thanks again for your kind words.

Respectfully,

zoid
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Friday, December 10, 2004 1:49 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Ok, point well taken. But perhaps WE see Wash for what he really is, that don't mean HE is clued in his own self. I'm sure there are levels of prickness between pilots. F-15 pilots don't breath the same air as say, those who 'drive' C-130s. I'm sure there are similar distinctions in the future, even in space.

And who knows ? In 500 yrs, perhaps only the really hip cats who know what's what are cool enough to even HAVE a collection of plastic dinosaurs....hey, it's possible!

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 10, 2004 2:27 PM

ZOID

AURaptor:

As a military controller, I preferred fighter jocks to gas-passers. They were at the top of the food chain in the USAF, and as a consequence, just seemed to be more fun-loving. They'd usually do what you told 'em without question, as opposed to trying to run your pattern with their obviously superior grasp of ATC principles and rules. Mixing a pattern of H/KR35's with T-1's (BE40's) and C-12's (BE20's) was more like a game of twenty questions.

When I worked at Holloman, the F-15 SOF's (Supervisor of Flying) would come up to the tower every morning armed with a dozen donuts for the controllers, and then sit on their 'throne' reading comic books, trying not to disturb the trolls, and hoping no one asked them anything during their shift...

I loved those guys. I also never failed to tell the new ones the 'porcupine vs. F-15' (or A-10 or F-16) joke, as an ice-breaker. They always honestly laughed at it, and won my unflagging respect for that sense of self-deprecation. At least part of what's funny about the joke is that none of them are pricks (that I ever met). They were, and still are, my heroes.

Respectfully,

zoid

P.S.
I truly pity the poor bastard in the MiG, Mirage or whatever, who goes up against one of our boys... In controller-speak, "Say next of kin."
_________________________________________________

"Burn the land and boil the sea, you can't take the sky from me." The Ballad of Serenity

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Friday, December 10, 2004 4:16 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

zoid:

All I know of flying I learned from watchin Top Gun . Hee hee. Ok, not true, but near enough.

I'll defer to your knowledge of pilots though, when it come to gettin a read on Wash.

I still say that playing w/ plastic dinos is more a sign of coolness, though.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Friday, December 10, 2004 4:54 PM

ZOID

AURaptor:

I always thought Serenity looked like a C-130, on her inside. And I've said it before, but it's still true: Wash's "This Land" scene wasted me! It reminded me so much of pulling the mid (overnight) shift in the tower, it was like deja vu. All alone for 8 hours, basically monitoring a NAVAID monitor. (No, that wasn't redundant; making sure an alarm didn't go off on a little panel with three lights on it, resetting it, if it did.) No air traffic. Everyone else in the world sanely asleep, unless they were in other towers, monitoring monitors.

Mostly, I read or did crosswords; but if I'd had plastic dinosaurs...

Sentimentally,

zoid

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 7:58 AM

CALIGARI

Quote:
Originally posted by BadgersHat:
The Matrix flicks were basically knock offs of Dark City and Tron, with a whole lot of philosophic psychobabble thrown in

That's quite a trick, since _Dark City_ was released in 1998 and _The Matrix_ was released thirteen months later.

I think the reason the first Matrix worked was the novelty of "cool stuff"; the CGI, the wire-fu, the "psychobabble", the rebel factor, alternate realities, ect, all put into a single film that worked enough for the viewer to go home satisfied. The two films after were unable to pay off the ideas brought up from the first film, and so they just covered the flaws with more CGI. It's the old Hollywood law of diminishing returns.

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 8:21 AM

CHOSEN1

I see The Matrix as very different from Firefly. Take the two main characters. If I was on a double date with Mal and Neo, I'd be making out with Mal while Neo waxed philosophical in the corner. Don't get me wrong. I love Neo. I do. I just don't have an obsessive devotion to his life. This is the way I feel about everyone aboard Serenity. I think the movie may start out slow, because there are still a lot of people who haven't even heard of Firefly. I also think it will start to pick up speed once the word gets out about how brilliant it is. I don't know. I guess a lot of it just has to do with marketing, doesn't it?

I'm missing you already

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 8:43 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
That's quite a trick, since _Dark City_ was released in 1998 and _The Matrix_ was released thirteen months later.

Can't deny that the 2 story lines were essentially the same, though. Almost same could be said for The Truman Show. I'm sure there are other examples too, but those are the ones which come to mind first. Who knows how long the concept for Dark City was sitting on the shelf and who might have gotten wind of it.

As for Dark City, another thing that made it superior in MY book was Jennifer Connelly. 'Nuff said.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:42 AM

REGINAROADIE

Also, the presence of Richard O'Brien as one of the villainous Strangers was an added level of superior creepiness. I mean, who would you feel more threatened by? An Australian guy whose prevoius role had been a drag queen doing his best Tommy Lee Jones impression by drawling out his syllables, or a ratty looking drug addled dude from THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW with a soothing yet villainous voice?

In the commentary track, one of the people on the second track said that "No computer effect can replace Richard O'Brien." And it's true. Like in the scene where John Murdoch's memories were implanted into Mr. Hand, the delivery of that line "Oh yes, Mr. Book. I have John Murdoch in mind." just the delivery of that line is enough to send chills up your spine as opposed to Agent Smith stiffly saying "What good is a phone call if you are un-able...to speak?"

And to make the whole Matrix is a Dark City knockoff idea more concerete, Bruce Spence, one of the Strangers (Mr. Book) was in REVOLUTIONS as the train guy.

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 9:58 AM

BADGERSHAT

The story of Dark City was around for a long time--wasn't it a comic first? Plus, I think it's actually mre Tron than Dark City, in many ways... that's just my personal opinion, of course (BIG fan of Tron, and not BIG because of my height).

And I agree, the first time, it blew our minds, the second and third times, we'd see it in the first one, plus a zillion clones.

--Jefé The Hat

***************************
--Don't bother trying to predict, figure out, second guess, criticize, or suggest anything that comes from the mind of Joss Whedon, for you shall usually be wrong, and shall find out the Truth and Purpose in due time.
(This is the Truth of Whedoning)

"I like smackin 'em"--Jayne

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 10:16 AM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
Also, the presence of Richard O'Brien as one of the villainous Strangers was an added level of superior creepiness. I mean, who would you feel more threatened by? An Australian guy whose prevoius role had been a drag queen doing his best Tommy Lee Jones impression by drawling out his syllables, or a ratty looking drug addled dude from THE ROCKY HORROR PICTURE SHOW with a soothing yet villainous voice?

In the commentary track, one of the people on the second track said that "No computer effect can replace Richard O'Brien." And it's true. Like in the scene where John Murdoch's memories were implanted into Mr. Hand, the delivery of that line "Oh yes, Mr. Book. I have John Murdoch in mind." just the delivery of that line is enough to send chills up your spine as opposed to Agent Smith stiffly saying "What good is a phone call if you are un-able...to speak?"

And to make the whole Matrix is a Dark City knockoff idea more concerete, Bruce Spence, one of the Strangers (Mr. Book) was in REVOLUTIONS as the train guy.

"NO HAI ES BANDAI. THERE IS....NO.....BAND. AND YET....WE HEAR A BAND."

Mr Hand ? I always pictured Ray Walston as Mr Hand. "What are you, people? On Dope?"

.....sorry. hee hee. Couldn't help myself.

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 1:59 PM

CORNCOBB

Re: serenity set theory.
Thanks Zoid. Much appreciated. I think the fact that Serenity is a continuous set makes it seem much more real. If the sets were still up it would be possible to be in the ship, live in the ship, just as the crew do. Something wondrous about that.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Saturday, December 11, 2004 2:55 PM

TETHYS

One: No one posted in with a defense on the philosophical aspects of the Matrix? I am ashamed of you all.

Two: How can it be a knock-off of Dark City, the plots are completely different. Aliens aren't machines, etc. Now, I loved Dark City, but I never for an instant put the two together, since they are entirely different! Similarities between Neo and the "scooning" are just that, similarities. The matrix trilogy was inspired by Eastern Philosophy concerning the nature of reality, choice, and the idea of deus ex machina.

Three: Can't we all like both? I do, it's not like it's adultery or anything.

"Your mouth is talking. Might wanna see to that"

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 6:18 AM

MYNAMEISJONAS

Brown isn't cool
black trenchcoats and black sunglasses is cool.
whatching the badguys standing still shooting, then the good guys shooting, then the bad guys falling over isn't cool.
whatching the good guys jumping round a room in slow motion shooting machine guns diving behind pillars and doing cool looking martial arts moves is cool.
some lame story where a special agent is chasing a fugitive girl is only cool if she is looking for a mate and takes her clothes off alot.
having a special agent looking for a cool computer hacker who can save the world by doing cool martial arts moves is cool.

oh and southern accents is definately not cool

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 8:01 AM

ZOID

Browncoats:

Troll. Look at MynameisJonas' Profile page and read all 3 of his/her posts since becoming a member on 22 November 2004. Then, form an opinion on the validity of his/her viewpoints, and the coolness of some Matrix fans.

Dismissively,

zoid

P.S.
Please note: I did not say 'all Matrix fans'. I myself am an enduring fan of the first Matrix film, as well as all original and innovative filmmaking, and I am "definately" (sic) cool... Well, at least I'm not a total geek... Okay, how about "I'm the exception that proves the rule"?

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 10:18 AM

CYBERSNARK

I'm not gonna get into the Matrix thread (I am a fan of all three movies, though there're certain directorial and narrative choices I'd've made differently).

Quote:
Originally posted by zoid:
It may or may not be the first time such a set has been built and used,

The Promenade set for Deep Space Nine: full circle, two floors (though the second floor wasn't actually finished when they started filming).

But you're right; it's not the standard way of doing things.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 5:05 PM

CORNCOBB

I thought of DS9 as well. That had a special atmosphere too. Could b cos of the sets.

"Gorramit Mal... I've forgotten my line."

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 6:05 PM

MYNAMEISJONAS

zoid what the the hell?, you mean because i only have three posts that makes me a troll, we are all beginners at sometime.

anyway i wasn't tryring to call firefly fans uncool i was merely pointing out the reason the first matrix movie was so popular, and why i think serenity won't be.

You can go on and on about how it can't fail because its made by JOSS, but the only movies that make money are the ones that have lots of ads on tv, with big name actors blowing stuff up and opera music playing.

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 7:44 PM

DBLADE

Aargh!!! The dreaded "This Movie Sucks Because Its Not Like or Too Much Like this Other Movie" thread.

Matrix 1: A benchmark in moviemaking whose impact still can be felt in other movies for good or ill. I loved it for many reasons including its use of cool kung fu. I don't acknowledge the sequels and pretend that it ended with the first movie (just as I did with the original Highlander).

Firefly the Series: The best scifi series of all time in my opinion. Can you imagine if it would have gone on for at least 5 seasons? Almost too good to imagine. The strength of Firefly is the characters and Joss's undeniable mastery of making plots work in an exciting and entertaining fashion. I can only assume Serenity the movie will be of the same quality.

Dark City: Good movie with excellent atmosphere. I didn't find it as entertaining as the Matrix 1 or Firefly the series, but I still like it. Even if it had an influence on the Matrix (which I haven't seen proof or admission by the makers) the two movies are very different in outlook and execution.

There is my opinion. I like all three. Oh yeah. Back to the Future should have ended with the first as well

although I did like the train scene from the third.

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Sunday, December 12, 2004 9:40 PM

GUNRUNNER

Quote:
Originally posted by MynameisJonas:
You can go on and on about how it can't fail because its made by JOSS, but the only movies that make money are the ones that have lots of ads on tv, with big name actors blowing stuff up and opera music playing.

You really have a small view of movies. Look at the top five grossing movies:
Titanic
Star Wars IV
Shrek 2
E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial
Star Wars I

Only Two had more than one big name or popular actors- Titanic and Star Wars I (Counting if they were a big name actor at the time of release, discounting voice work), 1 road the coattails of its successful predecessor (Shrek 2 also EP I but I bunched that up with the previous statement) while two were ground breaking movies (ET and Star Wars).

(Strange only one of those movies is on my top ten list)

Now I'm not a big Joss fan, in fact I do not like Buffy or Angel and didn't think Alien 4 was any good. However Firefly has some thing that all the recent “Blockbuster” movies didn’t have- a meticulously crafted plot and 10 (yes 10) well thought up main characters.

Serenity may not make billions, or be hyped to death on Entertainment Tonight (For some reason I have a vision of Nathan and Adam savagely beating Billy Bush) but its going to be one of those movies that sets the standard for movies to come just like Das Boot, or The Sand Pebbles, or 2001.

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Monday, December 13, 2004 11:16 AM

ZEEK

Quote:
Originally posted by MynameisJonas:
Brown isn't cool
black trenchcoats and black sunglasses is cool.
whatching the badguys standing still shooting, then the good guys shooting, then the bad guys falling over isn't cool.
whatching the good guys jumping round a room in slow motion shooting machine guns diving behind pillars and doing cool looking martial arts moves is cool.
some lame story where a special agent is chasing a fugitive girl is only cool if she is looking for a mate and takes her clothes off alot.
having a special agent looking for a cool computer hacker who can save the world by doing cool martial arts moves is cool.

oh and southern accents is definately not cool

I know. I know. Don't feed the troll. blah blah blah

You can't compare apples to oranges here. One movie is an action movie the other has character development. Obviously the action sequences in The Matrix are cooler and the character development in Serenity is going to be superior. I fail to see how that makes one or the other better. While I really doubt Serenity will out perform The Matrix at the box office, I still think it has great potential to be a fan favorite and also cool.

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Wednesday, June 22, 2016 7:10 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

I just read that The Matrix could have been a disaster by having Will Smith as Neo. Fortunately Fresh Prince turned it down in favor of Wild Wild West, which he also tanked.

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Wednesday, July 13, 2016 8:09 PM

JEWELSTAITEFAN

bump

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