Angel seasons 3 and 4; What went wrong? (spoil away) by chrisisall

For me, it was Connor. And Cordy. And Connor and Cordy.

I'm not even sure I need to go into it any further than that.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:05 AM

From what I read about that, I can only say that it must have sounded good at the story discussions....

Twisted Chrisisall

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Monday, May 22, 2006 11:29 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
From what I read about that, I can only say that it must have sounded good at the story discussions....

Not sure how that could've sounded good. It's just wrong. Angel was supposedly in love with Cordy (which I wasn't to happy about, either, but I could've lived with it) and she with him. She sleeps with(not only sleeps with, but "de-flowers") his son? Nasty.

And Jasmine? Blech. One reason I took so long to watch Firefly was because it had 'that weird Jasmine chick' in it. (Didn't much like Nathan on Buffy, either...but I wasn't suppose to like him...I've since changed my mind about Caleb...but not Jasmine).

I did LOVE dark Wesley. I was equally torn between missing bumbling, love-sick puppy Wes and loving dark, sexy, tortured Wes.

Hrmmm...what else? I block much of Season 3 & 4 out. Maybe other people's comments will open the floodgates of ickiness.

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Monday, May 22, 2006 1:19 PM

SOULQUAKE

Connor being in the series ruined a lot of it for me >_< I couldn't stand him. Just to throw in another opinion, my husband couldn't stand him either :p

That said, we both loved the series as a whole :)

---
"Sun came out, and I walked on my feet and heard with my ears. I ate the bits, the bits stayed down, and I work. I function like I'm a girl. I hate it because I know it'll go away."

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Monday, May 22, 2006 1:50 PM

ANOTHERFIREFLYFAN

Ok, so there were some bad things. BUT!!! I would like to point out that there was a lot of good too:

Evil Angelus. 'Nuff said.

And Faith. She's awesome.

In fact, I'd say that overall these were terrific, if a little flawed, seasons. I didn't like Cordy/Connor either... in fact I always found Connor annoying (and they eventually wrote him off the show altogether), but there are at least valid reasons given. Cordy was not in control of herself, Jasmine was.

Kinda sad though, cause the character had developed so well through the third season, changing much from the selfish brat she used to be. And then... they ruined Cordy. (But I keep telling myself, it's not really her).

Keep flying

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:30 PM

EMBERS

it is hard to rant or praise...because I just couldn't get that caught up in any of it...

I know I'll get some people mad at me: but I don't think Charisma Carpenter could really play outside of her 'bitchy Cordy' range... Saint Cordelia was a HUGE mistake... and then in the 4th Season, when she got pregnant in RL she was just phoning it in.

Gina Torres as Jasmine really salvaged the end of that story arc, but it was such a confusing mess getting to there....

I could understand the whole idea of Connor, and you could see that he was wonderful in the 2 episodes where we see him in Angel's 5th season... so the actor was capable....

Basically I think they always had a little trouble with the show Angel anyway, it really started to click with Season 5 because of the whole 'belly of the beast' theme of running Wolfram & Hart.

IMO Buffy was just always the more exciting show, with clearer themes and stronger characters.

And then of course Firefly eclipsed even that!

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Monday, May 22, 2006 2:56 PM

WHISPER

I think you will find season 3 to be on par with the other seasons- it's a personal favorite of mine. The episode "Lullaby" was outstanding. It's still all the characters we love with the addition of Fred.

Season 4 is where most people have their problem and i can understand why. I hated the Connor/Cordy thing to but I think we were supposed to. The writers were going for the vomit feeling, and they got it. The whole season was very dark and angsty. I thought it had some good arcs in it as well. I loved Jasmine- the idea of the dark underbelly to any utopian society and our heros ruining world peace was great.
S4 is my least favorite season but only due to it's depressingness (is that a word?).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Want Firefly/ Serenity/ BtVS/ Angel desktop wallpapers? Take a look at the ones I've created at:
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Monday, May 22, 2006 3:43 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
For me, it was Connor. And Cordy. And Connor and Cordy.

I'm not even sure I need to go into it any further than that.

I'd agree with only one tiny addition. EVIL Cordy.

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Monday, May 22, 2006 5:19 PM

What went wrong with season 3? Basically... nothing. IMO, S3 comes in barely behind S5 as the best season ever. As a nemesis (in this case, "bad guy" doesn't really apply), they don't come much better in the Buffy/Angelverse than Holtz, played brilliantly by Keith Szarabajka. And for character development of all the main cast, you'd be hard-pressed to find a season on either show that matched it. Angel, Wes, Gunn, Fred, Cordy... they all had big things that their characters went thru, that made each a deeper and richer character at the end of it. It also had a tight, concise season-long arc, something that the ME writers would struggle with ever after (even in the standout S5--most eps are standalones, but I dare you to try to make sense of the

Select to view spoiler:

Lindesy/Eve

plot). And it had flashbacks, and I love me some flashbacks.

As far as coming up with a negative thing about the year, I'd say that, aside from "Waiting in the Wings" (yay, Summer!), there are really no single standout episodes. It's more of just an overall level of quality that flows smoothly from one to the next, with "Provider" (ep 12) as the only one I'd consider kind of a stinker.

And on the issue of Connor: as brutally annoying as he is in S4, I don't find him hard to take at all in S3. The teenaged version is only around for 3 episodes, anyway, and at that point the writers hadn't yet given him the lobotomy that left him as the most gullible tool on the planet.

S4... There was a lot to like. Angelus, Faith, Willow, some great action sequences, and "Orpheus", one of the 4 or 5 best Angel episodes ever. Even as hard to watch as Cordy and Connor were (not only as a couple--just in general), they were only one portion of the storyline, and the first 2/3 of the year were great, in spite of them.

The problem came when the Jasmine arc started, which turned out to have no relevance to the earlier Beast/Evil Cordy story. Tremendous letdown. But still, there's plenty of Joss-y goodness in the season, and it's absolutely worth watching.

Basically, Angel S4 is still better than Buffy S7, and Angel S3 is definitely better than Buffy S6 (and that's coming from someone who likes S6).

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Basically, Angel S4 is still better than Buffy S7,

Your opinion is perfectly valid, however, I can't personally understand this, as Bs7 is one of my favourites; I don't see how any Angel season (except possibly 5, which I'm still working on at the moment *It's GREAT*) could be better than that.

But then, I'd take Dark Angel over Angel any day of the week, so maybe Angel's just not my 'thing'. If it weren't for Buffy, I'd never have watched an episode.

Chrisisall, Spike fan extrordinaire

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 4:54 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Whisper:
I think you will find season 3 to be on par with the other seasons- it's a personal favorite of mine. The episode "Lullaby" was outstanding. It's still all the characters we love with the addition of Fred.

But you can't get S3 without getting S4; Angel's at the bottom of the sea at the end of the third, and you can't just leave it there in your mind. That's why I go from two right to five.

Well, that AND lack of coin Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:17 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

chrisisall wrote:

Quote:
If you think the seasons went in a wrong direction- then how?
If you think they were fine- then why?

Rant or praise: your choice.

Ok there is a question!

Well Chrisisall I'll tell you now I love Season 3 above all the other seasons; however I will say that both seasons suffered heavily from too much of it's own mythology and a reluctance to resolve any of the issues brought up within.

This I think lead to numerous difficult plot lines where contrivances had to be brought in to clear muddy arcs. As example Wesley's character. I know everyone loves the unshaven 'Crocket style' Wes but really he's a different character, and he was so in order to justify certain plot lines.

Secondly. Charles Gunn... Unfinished and unrealised. They really didn't know where to go with him and it showed. His on/off relationship with Angel was just dumb and unbelievable.

Conor/Cordelia - just too contrived and as such plot lines were cut and it showed the frayed edges.

Having said all that individual episodes were very strong. And really the first four discs of Season 3 are fun, entertaining and energetic and along the mission statement of the show. Thereafter it's a little soapy. But it ends well! Extremely well and part of me wishes that Angel were still at the bottom of the sea, waiting for Joss ten years hence to bring back the show/ a show where the ANGEL character emerges again.

Angel is still a great great show but it is better appreciated on an episode by episode basis. When looked at from a seasonal point of view they become frustrating.

...don't even get me started on season 5.

The
Somnambulist

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:48 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

...don't even get me started on season 5.

You no like the Spike?

Gotta be startin' something Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 6:57 AM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by TheSomnambulist:

...don't even get me started on season 5.

You no like the Spike?

Gotta be startin' something Chrisisall

...and there's more but anyway....

www.cirqus.com

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 7:50 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Your opinion is perfectly valid, however, I can't personally understand this, as Bs7 is one of my favourites; I don't see how any Angel season (except possibly 5, which I'm still working on at the moment *It's GREAT*) could be better than that.

Part of that opinion comes from the fact that while I love Buffy, I love Angel just a little more (I prefer the actors and characters of Buffy, but like the dark atmosphere of Angel better). But Buffy7 spent way too much time on an arc that the writers never really seemed totally clear on themselves. Going back, you'll notice that in earlier seasons (2, with Angelus/Spike/Dru; 3 with the Mayor/Faith; 5 with Glory) the Big Bad's plot wasn't necessarily always real clear or consistent, either, but the difference there was, it was relegated to being a small part of the overall storyline. Most of the time was spent focused on the main characters and their personal ups and downs. In S7, it was all-First Evil-all-the-time, and if you're gonna spend that much time on it, it better be a great plot that flows well, doesn't have any major lulls, and makes sense throughout. In that respect, the Buffy writers were 0-for-3. And those characters that I said I actually preferred over the Angel cast? In S7, only Buffy and Spike got any kind of meaningful character arcs. Willow had her little "Ooh, I'm afraid to use magick" that was about the easiest and quickest cop-out they could get away with after S6; Xander was so criminally under-used that they finally just poked his eye out, if only to give poor Nick Brendon something to do; and Giles' biggest contribution to the year was the uber-lame "Is he the First" thing that they (almost painfully) dragged out for 3 or 4 episodes.

I'll say S4 of Angel is better in three respects:

1) The production quality was great. Between the big fight scenes, the rain of fire, and the Beast, it just has a bigger, more "epic" feel to it than Buffy7.

2) The storyline was better and tighter. As I was watching both seasons as they originally aired, Angel was just blowing Buffy out of the water--I mean, it wasn't even close--until ep 18 (Jasmine), when the writers pretty much give up completely on the first arc and go off in a new direction, with only the weakest of attempts ("they were birth pains," according to Wesley) to tie the two together. That took care of most of that huge lead it had gained over Buffy, but IMO, it still comes out slightly ahead.

3) The character development never suffered the way it did in Buffy's last year. Maybe they didn't get to go as in-depth as they did in other years, but none of the main characters seemed to disappear for ages on end the way they did on Buffy (Why? Easy: no annoying Potentials around to suck up screen-time).

There's a lot to knock about both those seasons, but each one has a lot to love, too. I'd say don't hate on Angel S3&4 until you've tried them. Then, at least, you'll be able to base your criticisms on first-hand experience.

And if I can, I'd just like to respond to something Embers said a few posts up, about Charisma Carpenter. I don't like the "Saint Cordelia" term, because I feel like the gradual disappearance of her bitchiness was just a normal case of growing up and maturing (and also being exposed to the kinds of horrible monsters and helpless people-in-peril that she dealt with every day). I disagree with the idea that she went outside her range trying to play anything but bitchy-Cordy, because I think she was so great, and such a huge part of the show (and warm on-screen presence) in seasons 1, 2, 3, and 5. But if you amend that slightly and say that she was beyond her range trying to play a Big Bad, then I couldn't possibly agree more. She was so arch, so over-the-top, so cheesy, that she became the sort of poorly-acted, poorly-written, laughably-bad villain that you would never expect to see in something by Joss Whedon. To me, that was the one aspect of the season that's hard to watch--not the "eww" of Cordy/Connor, or Connor's unbelievable gullible-ness as he's led around by the... umm, nose (actually thinking of another body part, but 'nose' will do). It's Charisma's awful acting, combined with the lousy material the writers gave her to work with.

And as far as the yuckiness of the Cordy/Connor thing, what's the reason most people feel that way? Is it because (as Angelus--among others--points out) she used to take care of him as a baby, and is almost like his mother? I don't think so, because it's not as though she watched him grow up for 18 years. He was a baby for a few weeks, disappeared, and re-appeared as an 18-year-old. It's hard to consider them (the baby vs. the teenager) as even being the same character.

I think it's the age difference. You look at Cordy and see a woman in her early/mid-30s, and then you look at Connor and see a teenager. Except while the actress was in her 30s (and looked it, especially as her pregnancy started to show), remember that the character is only supposed to be the same age as Buffy, Willow, and Xander--in Angel S4, that would be 22. Connor's 18, so really, you're talking about two people who are (supposed to be) very close in age. But when you see them on-screen, they don't look that way, and with the way Evil Cordy bosses the poor kid around, they certainly don't act that way.

Here's an "eww" that nobody ever seems to mention: in Buffy7, Willow would 22. Kennedy's age is never given, but as a Potential, you can probably assume 15-17. Umm, girl/girl or not, last time I checked that was illegal. But since the actresses both look about the same age (mid-20s), I don't think anyone ever even gives it a second thought.

Just a little perspective...

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:09 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Here's an "eww" that nobody ever seems to mention: in Buffy7, Willow would 22. Kennedy's age is never given, but as a Potential, you can probably assume 15-17. Umm, girl/girl or not, last time I checked that was illegal.

That did cross my perverted mind...

But HEY! They're potentials, outside of normal societal parameters!!!

And I'm a Chinese jet pilot Chrisisall

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:13 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Just a little perspective...

Seriously, you present a detailed and interesting take. I would probably agree with most of your arguments upon viewing.

Chrisisall, doomed to sell more comics....

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:35 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

And as far as the yuckiness of the Cordy/Connor thing, what's the reason most people feel that way? Is it because (as Angelus--among others--points out) she used to take care of him as a baby, and is almost like his mother? I don't think so, because it's not as though she watched him grow up for 18 years. He was a baby for a few weeks, disappeared, and re-appeared as an 18-year-old. It's hard to consider them (the baby vs. the teenager) as even being the same character.

I think it's the age difference. You look at Cordy and see a woman in her early/mid-30s, and then you look at Connor and see a teenager. Except while the actress was in her 30s (and looked it, especially as her pregnancy started to show), remember that the character is only supposed to be the same age as Buffy, Willow, and Xander--in Angel S4, that would be 22. Connor's 18, so really, you're talking about two people who are (supposed to be) very close in age. But when you see them on-screen, they don't look that way, and with the way Evil Cordy bosses the poor kid around, they certainly don't act that way.

Here's an "eww" that nobody ever seems to mention: in Buffy7, Willow would 22. Kennedy's age is never given, but as a Potential, you can probably assume 15-17. Umm, girl/girl or not, last time I checked that was illegal. But since the actresses both look about the same age (mid-20s), I don't think anyone ever even gives it a second thought.

Just a little perspective...

For me, the "ewww" factor has nothing to do with age. It has to do with the fact that Cordy was supposedly in love with Angel. Angel wanted to do it with Cordy, she wanted to do it with him. They probably would've if they had been allowed. Instead, she does it with his son? Blech and double blech. The whole thing really squiggs me out. It's the stuff of Jerry Springer...not my world...and not the world of a TV show that I enjoy. Thus, I didn't like Season 4.

As for Willow and Kennedy? Didn't like that either, but not because of any age difference. They had no chemistry (didn't think Tara and Willow had much either)...and Kennedy was a pushy beyotch. Kennedy does say in one ep (can't remember which) that she's probably too old to be called anyway, so that takes her out of the 15-17 age range. Also, she could order drinks, so I have always taken her to be at least 21, as I think I was intended to.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 8:56 AM

EST120

I thought season 3 was pretty good. While I was not particularlly fond of the Holtz character, he did make for an entertaining head to head with Angel. The beginnings of the Wes transformation was good to. Justine annoyed me to no end. The Loa was absolutely fantastic, though.

Season 4 was not so bad, in my opinion, until the last quarter or third of the season (though it is my least favorite of the 5 and the only one that I do not own). The big rock beast bad guy was pretty cool, stomping through Wolfram and Hart. I agree with many other posters here that the Cordelia-Connor "relationship", even with Cordelia not being of sound mind, was a mistake. It was too weird, even for this show. Jasmine was an interesting idea, though I think better suited to just a short story arc, 2-3 episodes and not a season ender. Especially with that kind of build up, I would have wanted to see a showdown with a senior partner or The Powers That Be.

The appearance of Angelus was..... interesting, but seemed more for the shock value than anything else, having him talk all vulgar and threatening to everyone. I understand why so many people find Connor to be annoying, but he did not bother me so much. It sets him up nicely for his return in season 5.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:
Kennedy does say in one ep (can't remember which) that she's probably too old to be called anyway, so that takes her out of the 15-17 age range. Also, she could order drinks, so I have always taken her to be at least 21, as I think I was intended to.

I don't know... maybe. On the ordering drinks thing, how many times did that happen? The only one I remember was her sipping something on their date in the ep where Willow turned into Warren, but can we be sure it was something with alcohol? The Scoobies were going to the Bronze since they were high-school sophomores, so we know that most of their regular crowd is made up of kids too young to drink, so most of what they serve has to be non-alcoholic. And on the too-old-to-be-called issue, that could be interpreted to be just about anything. Buffy was 15, and Faith was probably 15 or 16. In Kennedy's mind, even 16 or 17 might be "over-the-hill" in this case.

I just think back to the episode where Buffy took them to Willy's. Spike makes some crack about them not blending in very well, and Rona (man, what a bitch she was) answered back with "We're a bunch of 15-year-olds in a demon bar--how much blending did you expect us to do?" I think there were four of them on that trip, including Kennedy, and while maybe all four weren't exactly 15, I don't think she'd make that crack, referring to the whole group, if one of the four was 21.

But this is getting away from the original topic of the thread. Shutting up now.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 11:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

But this is getting away from the original topic of the thread. Shutting up now.

No, no, no. Don't shut up. I'm bored and need distraction. I can't be expected to work on a day like today.

You've given me some homework. I need to go scan me some Season 7 for Kennedy's age.

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Tuesday, May 23, 2006 9:40 PM

THENCDUCK

I guess im one of the few people who agrees with Joss with the fact that season 4 our favorite after season 5 now. Personally i like all of twist and the entire story line. Plus it had some pretty sweet actions scenes. I know cordy was weird in that season, but she was the big twist giving birth to a power that be that wanted to create a perfect happy world i think thats some good writing. But i do tend to like some weird shit.

Season 3 is probably my least favorite, but i still think its a good season just not as good as seasons 1 and 2.

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Wednesday, May 24, 2006 10:07 AM

Groosalugg, I couldn't come up with anything to support other than I already posted to support my theory that Kennedy is older. Amanda does mention being 17, and I assume Kennedy is older than her, but there's that funny thing about assuming.

As for Season 4 of Angel being better than Season 7 of BtVS. No way, IMHO. I listed my favorite eps from Season 3-4 of Angel and Season 6-7 of Buffy and BtVS came out on top. S6 had 13 or 14 eps that I consider "good or better." Even S7 had 8 or 9. I only came up with 13 total for both season 3 and 4 of Angel.

But then again, I've always been a Buffy fan first...at least until I saw Firefly. Angel was secondary and the only reason I started watching it was because I needed more Buffyverse and the show had ended.

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Thursday, May 25, 2006 12:55 AM

Angel S3:

I think S3 suffers slightly from having poorer standalones to pad the arc. In fact, in the first half of the season I think Billy, Lullaby and Birthday are the only truly great episodes. After Provider, however, things pick up big time. As others have mentioned, I have no problem with Connor in S3, in fact I think A New World is one of the best episodes of the season, but his character as portrayed here is quite far removed from what we see in S4. Cordelia is...off in the latter stages, which is a shame because the final moments of Tomorrow would have been even better with her intact (even though I think another big mistake of the season is Angel/Cordy). Anyone else wish Groo had made a comeback? :(

Angel S4:

Deep Down was a pretty good opener, even if it did have the new not-so-improved Connor on show. After that the season begins to slide into all flash no substance territory with (essentially redundant) pseudo-X-man Gwen showing up and the introduction of the Beast, who must be ME's fourth consecutive invulnerable villain (and they don't stop there...). The show hits a new low with Slouching Towards Bethlehem and Supersymmetry - the former because it's just plain bad, the latter because it mangles canon without a good enough story to justify it.

Spin The Bottle is a mildly amusing breather before Rain Of Fire brings a whole new meaning to the word UNHOLY. Follow that up with a zombie survival horror episode and hte season's in the toilet before it's even halfway through.

Next comes the Angelus sub-arc with it's uber-tenuous justification for his return. Angelus then proceeds to spout some of the worst threatening dialogue ever written and does essentially zero damage.

I was excited for Faith's return, but even those episodes were lacking (not least because Faith was more than a little Pod herself...). Can someone explain to me why Orpheus is so great?

Inside Out totally misses the point of what made Skip such a good character by promptly assassinating him and then...well...assassinating him.

I'm one of the few who think S4 actually took a turn for the better with Jasmine's introduction. Although necessarily hampered by the fact the episodes are the tail end of a shambolic arc, Shiny Happy People to Home holds together quite well in my mind. Unfortunately, this is due in no small part to the fact that Cordy spends these episodes in a coma. I miss S1 :(

Final analysis:

S3: Not as good as 1/2, but still up there.
S4: Train. Wreck.

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Wednesday, June 7, 2006 2:58 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I thought season 3 was amazing, it absolutely blew me away. All the Wesley stuff was fantastic, I really loved the introduction of Fred, I even loved all the Conner stuff and Holtz was possibly my favourite villain of the series.

Season 4 started well, (except for Conner change from confused teenager into stroppy lovesick teenager) loved all the beast/angelus stuff but by the end it just made no sense and was a disspointment.

-------------------------------------------------

Pimping my fanfic:
http://www.fireflyfans.net/sunroomitem.asp?i=8267

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Sunday, June 11, 2006 5:14 PM

WTE

Season three is pretty cool, I gotta say. For whatever reason, pregnant Darla annoys me to no end, but I'm willing to blame that on some sort of personal quirk. Overall, good season.

I pretty much have the opposite feeling about Season 4 as most of you. I don't like the start of the season, especially with Cordy being a higher power... the scenes where we see her surrounded by a bright glow are just so so so cheesy. Anyway, I enjoy the Beast bit to a certain extent, but I don't like it when things become so connected that I can't distinguish one episode from another. Not that I want it to be entirely episodic, but I also don't want it to be a six-or-seven hour long movie (sort of). Anyway, I thought the season got better with Jasmine. At first, it's annoying, but especially when they defeat her and suddenly the world FREAKS OUT, I think it's just good old fashioned fun, with some nice questions raised (is it really so bad for her to be ruler, and all that).

So, I enjoy both greatly, three more than four though. And I really liked the Jasmine stuff.

EDIT: Sorry, but I also thought I would mention that I'm in love with Fred, particularly throughout season three. I also think one of the best season four episodes is the one with her physics professor guy... yeah. Not just best of season four, but best of the series. Just so much awesomeness.

HONKS

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Monday, June 12, 2006 1:12 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by WTE:
EDIT: Sorry, but I also thought I would mention that I'm in love with Fred, particularly throughout season three. I also think one of the best season four episodes is the one with her physics professor guy... yeah. Not just best of season four, but best of the series. Just so much awesomeness.

I hated that ep. Nothing to do with Fred, of course, more to do with the story overwriting existing canon. At the end of S2, the gang works out that Fred ended up in Pylea because she read a mystical book aloud, and in fact they use this information to get home. Now we're supposed to believe that this professor guy sent her there because he was jealous of her? Lame.

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Monday, June 12, 2006 2:37 AM

KILGORETROUT

I dont know were to put this and if someone already said this then sorry but everyone is having ago at the jasmine story arc but thats because they didnt intend on it at all but cordilia got pregant in real life and they ahd to ruch and change the story if i udnerstand rightly cordilia wanted to leave the series and thats why she was evil and was going to stay the main bad guy story arc. At least thats what i heard ( i cant prove it though).

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Monday, June 12, 2006 11:22 AM

I'm pretty sure she didn't want to leave the series.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 8:40 AM

DJSOSONUT

I don't know if i'll be able to keep this short, but i'll try. I tend to lurk, so when i finally do speak i suffer from diarrhea of thought.

I came late to Buffy, Angel, and Firefly. Which is a good and bad thing. Good because i didn't have time to grow any real animosity towards the characters that watching it weekly could bring, allowing me to enjoy a complete picture of the journeys more and be far more open to intial change. Bad because i really wish i had been around when the fandoms where at their height so i could've supported the shows (Not being around to support Angel and Firefly hurts the most.)

But to this thread, and what-if anything-was wrong with season 3-4. From reading anything related to the Jossverses that i can get my hands on, from people that watched it weekly to those that came to it late like i did, its seems for the most part you can divide people that watch Angel into 3 categories when it comes to the seasons.

1) Those that like 1-2 (plus didn't care for much after, though some would come back in season 5 when Buffy ended.)
2) Those that like 2+4 (plus feel season 3 was a mess and/or 5 should never happened.)
3) Those that like 3+5 (and feel that season 4 was a mess.)

This isn't foolproof or total, just basically my opinion. Mostly I fall in the third category, though i don't tend to think of any season of a Joss Whedon show as perfect (with the possible exception of Firefly in is pure dvd form.) The only character arch that i feel is flawless from beginning to end as shown is Wes's, and i still think his is incomplete.

I love season 3 and 5. They're the seasons that made me jump ship from being "Buffy is number 1# Wooot!!" and Angel just being an alright show. Season 3 made me stop seeing it as Buffy's spinoff and Season 5 made me retroactively love characters i had been pretty indifferent to before (namely Cordy and Conner.)

What worked for me in season 3.
1) Its the season where the supporting characters stopped just being supporting characters. The show stopped being all about Angel, and more about Angel's flawed family; where everyone's journey started to have equal weight with the title character's, and in a few cases more interesting.

2) Tensions and the epic quality that truly started here. These lasted well into season 4 and 5, and they only worked because of the foundation laid down in 1&2. The events of this season resonate up and down entire run of angel. Making it a strong season with layered episodes, a strong arch and the ensemble cast that for the most part was up to taking that journey.

3) Heroes and Villains. This is where i noticed that the Buffy kind of has it easy, or as easy as risking your life almost every day can get. She's a cut and dry hero, far from flawless, but a hero none the less. And, for the most part, her major villians pretty much just want her dead or out of the way so they can complete their goals. She's good, they're evil. They want her dead, she kills them and/or keeps them from accomplishing their goals. Its what she was born to do, though she can be delightfully unorthodox in her methods. She and her family are clearly in the end on one side and her enemies aren't really interested in overt manipulation or setting long term goals beyond power and/or the destruction of everything.

Then there is Angel. Wolfram & Hart, Holtz, Justine, and Sahjahn really worked for me in this season. Angel isn't a cut and dry hero. He's equal parts hero, villain and victim. By the end of the show no member of his family is a pure white hat so it makes sense that his villains wouldn't be pure black hats. Its alot easier to cope when your enemies just want you dead, instead of being hell bent on hurting and/or manipulating you into goals set into motion so long ago the scope makes your brain ache.

What didn't work for me in season 3

1) Cordy. My problems with the character started well before season 3. Its not that i never liked Cordy cause i did and do now. I loved her on Buffy and digged her near the beginning on Angel. But CC never sold me on the developement of her character starting near the end of season 1. If i distance myself from her acting choices i really do enjoy the character. But i still think Cordy is far more important when she's absent and the show works better for it. I felt bringing her character back in after the 3 episodes absence slowed down the momentum of the third season. Part of it falls on Charisma for missing out of a major turning point in the series,making it hard for the writers to define her role in the new dynamic. The other part is on the writers for not being able to define it anyway. Both hitting false note upon false note. Cordy/Conner never gave me the ick factor that most people got because by that time i was so disinterested in the character it really didn't matter to me. Though tying Conner to her for so long dimmed my interest in him. When he's not with, around, talking about, or reacting to her character in season 4, i remember how interesting a character he can be. Too bad those moments are few and far between.

Cordy as a character interacting with the other characters wouldn't interest me until season 5 and You're Welcome. It made me rewatch the series and her character with a less critical eye. Though i was mad at CC for not stepping up to the plate and giving that much of a multifaceted performance when she was a regular.

2) Fred/Gunn. Nothing against the characters or the actors. Just on my first run didn't like them together in season 3. The actors did a great job with what they were given but i wouldn't enjoy them as a couple until season 4. In plot terms it was great for developing their characters and Wesley's. But nothing would really come of it for these two characters until season 4. And again the events of season 5 would retroactively make me enjoy them as a couple even more. I like my tragedy.

All and all, Season 3 is a landmark season for me. It was the season that Angel started to live up to its potential and with the episode 'Billy' that Wes pushed Spike aside to become my favorite Jossverse character. (Though Wes is pretty much my favorite fictional character period.)

Hmmm. I talk to damn much. Sorry i didn't get to season 4, but the only way i can keep this from getting any longer is to shut up now.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:45 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I realize this thread has been going on for quite a while, but thought I might as well put in a few words since I recently rewathced both Buffy 7 and Angel 5.

For me, Buffy 7 was by far the weakest season, even more so than 1, and Angel 5 was its weakest too. Angel 3&4 are the best IMO, and that includes Cordy/Connor. Just because something happens that you don't think is the greatest thing that could have happened to those characters, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting story. Besides, a lot of the Cordy arc was dictated by Charisma being pregnant. Angel 5 suffered from too many stand-alone eps that did nothing to further the overall story arc.

In any case, the only way to properly assess either Buffy or Angel is to follow the shows in order from the beginning, and I can't understand why Chris skipped over Angel 3&4. I can recall when he asked about that at one time, and I said he should watch them and judge for himself and not let anyone persuade him they weren't worth the time.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 10:56 AM

Ecgordon, seeing as I pray to the altar of Buffy 3, 6 and 7, as well as digging 2, 4 and 5, I'm pretty sure I'll like all of Angel when I get to 3 and 4. The slim sets are due out Nov.28, and guess what I want for X-Mass?

Grrr Argh Chrisisall

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:00 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Angel 5 suffered from too many stand-alone eps that did nothing to further the overall story arc.

I think that that was actually one of the best elements of S5--standalones. One, it's better for re-watching when you just want to stick a DVD in and watch one or two episodes and get a fix, rather than sitting thru an entire season; and two, by that point, after the messes of Buffy S7 and Angel S4, I'd completely lost confidence in the ME writers to be able to tell a consistent, tight storyline over the span of many episodes. Even the mini-arc they had going on during S5 of Lindsey and his little plot made almost zero sense from episode to episode. Jeffrey Bell even comments on that during the audio commentary for 'Not Fade Away.' Specifically, he says, "We were basically making Lindsey's storyline up as we went along, and maybe some of you out there are saying, 'Well, yeah, obviously.'"

Yeah, Jeffrey, it showed.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:21 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Angel 3&4 are the best IMO, and that includes Cordy/Connor. Just because something happens that you don't think is the greatest thing that could have happened to those characters, doesn't mean it isn't an interesting story.

True, but the writers still have to convince you of the value of said plot development, and S4 falls short of that in many departments for me.

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Wednesday, October 11, 2006 12:48 PM

ZEEK

Season 3 I have no problems with. The characters all have great storylines and grow in new and not necessarily expected ways. The Connor thing didn't bother me at all even though I knew from the get go he'd age incredibly rapidly somehow. The whole season flowed nicely and the end was one of the best cliffhangers Joss ever leaves us with.

Season 4 on the other hand was absolutely terrible. The season starts out with promises of great things to come and ends with a wimper. Now I know Joss is one for pulling crazy twists and turns on us when we think we're going one way. This was just done poorly. I mean the entire lead in to Season 4 was just dropped on the floor and swept under the rug. While it's presented as this big mystery and where is this going type of thing. Then we find out it's going no where and made no sense. I had a lot of faith in the writers until Jasmine showed up. Another part that didn't live up to the hype was the beast and angelus. For how bad these guys are supposed to be they really didn't do all that much damage. I expected more killing than there was.

Of course it had it's bright spots. Like seeing it the first time and being pulled in wondering where it's going. Orpheus is a great episode. You get to see a lot of character conflict and such. Great fight scene in Rain of Fire. Other than that the season was pretty terrible.

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Friday, October 13, 2006 6:19 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Zeek:
The Connor thing didn't bother me at all even though I knew from the get go he'd age incredibly rapidly somehow.

Have you been following The 4400?...

SPOILERS for 4400

...because they used the 'baby ages to adulthood rapidly' plot device in that one and it resulted in about 6 consecutive dud episodes.

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Friday, October 13, 2006 9:43 PM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

Why exactly is the 4400 reference used here??? How about getting back to the series at hand? I can just tell there will be a huge debate about the 4400 now so Im stomping it before its begun...hopefully.

I dont see what everyone has against Cordelia! ok, sure she was a little sickly sweet with the whole "im a higher being, i understand now" bit.... and the Connor/Cordelia issue was a little

but she was hillarious when she went evil-woman-with-a-baby! I mean, cmon! never saw that one comming did you?

And I never understood Jasmine. She did her job i suppose but she kinda lacked Oomph. Also... why is she Mocha skinned and older than Connor??? That makes no sense. Blame it on magic if you will but still: Wierd.

Also: Connor was a major disapointment. I expected
so much from him, and then Pftt!!! Bad actor I reckon. He didnt even look believable.

Finally....I know this is only supposed to be about Seasons 3&4 but... what the heck:Season 5... Set out to be good, there were a few really memorable episodes and then.... they all commit suicide. Can i say- Huh??? That was kinda a let down.... I wish they hadnt cancelled the series.... sob.

That is all.

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Friday, October 13, 2006 10:50 PM

WINDSTRUCK

I got totally lost on season 4.
Well, I was following Angel weekly. I thought Cordelia was laughable though.
I was starting to lose interest in Season 3, don't know why. But I agree with someone that it had a good cliffhanger with Angel in the middle of the sea. I just did not get the Saint Cordy as well.

I was going "oh crap!" with the Cordy and Connor. When Jasmine first appeared, I have no idea what just happened and why. That was all the Angel for me then.

BUFFY

I like Buffy. Season 1 was not that good, but it picks up as the story continues. This is what I like about Buffy, it's the characters and the actors who portray them.
The Buffy characters are very well developed. They are a family.

I liked Glory as a villain. She's really fun. But Cordy as a villain? Not much.

I liked seeing Cordy in Angel and Angel in Angel.

When I watched Angel, I already knew who Wes, Cordy and Angel were. It was easy to understand them. The return of Faith got me all giddy.

I think Fred is cool. I thought her to be the resident Willow of Angel. The concept of having an Angel Investigations is just really fun.

The idea of having 2 shows in 1 verse is very, very cool. Just irks me that I did not see the finale of Angel.

SOMETHING THAT REMINDED ME OF SOMETHING

I was watching Buffy Season 7. Finale. It was Principal Wood who said that "if they move, kill 'em!"
If anyone remembers, Joss was going all cryptic some months ago. Said exactly the same thing. Maybe it's important.

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Sunday, October 15, 2006 1:40 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:
Why exactly is the 4400 reference used here??? How about getting back to the series at hand? I can just tell there will be a huge debate about the 4400 now so Im stomping it before its begun...hopefully.

I thought it was pretty obvious - I was making the point that Angel and The 4400 both used the same plot device, and in both cases the quality of the series suffered as a consequence. The inference being that said plot device shouldn't have been used on Angel in the first place, which is very relevant to the title of this thread: "Angel seasons 3 and 4; What went wrong?"

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Sunday, October 15, 2006 4:17 AM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

Your trying too hard to make the 4400 reference make sense..... there is no shame in it. (The first step is accceptance)

Anyway, about the baby-ages-rapidly plot they used: that kinda annoyed me. It woulda been kinda cute if Connor had stuk around the show as a baby a little longer. The whole Baby Crime Fighter thing would have been great comic relief in my opinion. Alas- it was not to be.

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Monday, October 16, 2006 12:02 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:
Your trying too hard to make the 4400 reference make sense..... there is no shame in it. (The first step is accceptance)

Are you kidding? It's hard to tell...

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Monday, October 16, 2006 7:22 PM

Grounded, it makes perfect sense to me.

BuffyAngelfreak, if you're struggling to see the connection, then I think you might be the only one...

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 11:49 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:
Grounded, it makes perfect sense to me.

Phew. Thought I was losing it there ;)

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Tuesday, October 17, 2006 2:49 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:

Finally....I know this is only supposed to be about Seasons 3&4 but... what the heck:Season 5... Set out to be good, there were a few really memorable episodes and then.... they all commit suicide. Can i say- Huh???

Now my turn: HUH???
What suicide? If they didn't face them when they did, how long do you think it would've taken for them to be hunted down? They had to make a stand and take their chances!

And besides, most of them survived Chrisisall

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 3:36 AM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

Im going to ignore the previous insults to my extremly high intelligence...

They did not have to commit suicide. Sure some of them managed to survive (barring Wesley which I still havent forgiven Joss for) but then they recklessly head straight into Armagedon with a few rusty old swords for company. Hardly advisable. There are a number of quite nice alternate universes in which they could have settled down and regrouped. But no.... I suppose they had to wrap up the series in some way though, but you never see what happens with the whole prophecy thingo. Is Spike human now or what???

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Thursday, October 19, 2006 8:22 PM

DEEPGIRL187

This is just my take on things, but I think what went wrong on those seasons was the lack of trust. Team Angel stopped trusting each other for various reasons, and they all suffered for it. It allowed their enemies to divide and conquer them, so to speak.

I'll add here that while I never really liked Connor (except when he was a baby, he was sooo cute

), I did feel badly for him. There was really no way for him and Angel to have a good relationship with each other. He was never really able to experience what a real family was like until the end.

If you think about it, season 4 of Angel is a lot like season 6 of Buffy. Each of the characters reaches their darkest point, and it effects how they help people (if they're helping people at all). Everyone has to hit rock-bottom to see the true path.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Friday, October 20, 2006 3:39 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:
Im going to ignore the previous insults to my extremly high intelligence...

"Khan...I'm laughing at the superior intellect."
Sorry- I couldn't resist...

Quote:

they recklessly head straight into Armagedon with a few rusty old swords for company.
Is Spike human now or what???

They had swords...and their strength of will. They cut a path through those beasties straight to the heart of darkness, and a doorway to the Powers That Be who, astonished by their fortitude, postphoned the war to let our heroes recover to battle another day. They did this for their own amusement, not realizing that it would be their eventual downfall.
And both Angel and Spike are given their Humanity back, but this ironically only makes them stronger advocates for goodness.
Or something like that, I imagine.

It is a dream I have Chrisisall

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Friday, October 20, 2006 3:41 AM