Blondie Bear Vs. Captain Forehead by deepgirl187

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Blondie Bear Vs. Captain Forehead

POSTED BY: DEEPGIRL187
UPDATED: Friday, December 8, 2006 15:29
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VIEWED: 5165
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Saturday, October 28, 2006 11:49 AM

Well, it's down to the wire. I have two discs left of Angel and then I'll have offically watched everything in the Jossverse (well, except maybe the special features).

This past season has left me with a lot of questions, though. Specifically the relationship between Angel and Spike. The two main questions are this:

1) Why is there so much animosity between the two of them? I could understand Spike's dislike of Angel, but why does Angel seem to hate Spike so much? My mother's theory is that Spike reminds Angel of his time as Angelus. But are there other reasons?

2) Secondly, who do you think is the most moral of the two? Both have souls, both are champions. But does one have more ethics than the other? Is Spike better for actually earning a soul (and yes, I know he did it primarily for Buffy)? Or does Angel's years of "helping the helpless" make him the better vampire?

Some imponderables for our favorite fangbangers.

P.S. - As an unrelated sidenote, after watching "Smile Time", I truly believe Joss and the others are wedded to the forces of darkness.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 1:59 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

You'll see in the final few eps, but basically, much of it has to do w/ Buffy. ( Not all, though ) It really is great chemistry between Spike and Angel.

I can't decide between the 2 which is more 'worthy'. I'll take the lamer's way out and say it's a toss up.

(pssst...it's Spike, really

)

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 3:59 PM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Angel is the more noble of the two, mainly because his actions are intended to atone for all of the bad things he has done even though he knows he can never be redeemed. All of Spike's actions are self-serving, either to get Buffy's attention or to irritate Angel.

I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 6:13 PM

AURAPTOR

America loves a winner!

Yeah, were Spike only more brooding....

People love a happy ending. So every episode, I will explain once again that I don't like people. And then Mal will shoot someone. Someone we like. And their puppy. - Joss

" They don't like it when you shoot at 'em. I worked that out myself. "

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Saturday, October 28, 2006 9:32 PM

AMYEL

1) There's a lot of reasons. I do think that a lot of it has to do with Angel not liking being reminded of his past. But also... Spike is just annoying.

He has that particular talent. Spike is mad at Angel, Spike makes damn sure Angel is mad at him, Angel does more things to make Spike angry, Spike gets more annoying...the circle never ends. It's their thing. Fighting over Buffy is only their current pasttime but I believe they'll find plenty more reasons to hate each other throughout eternity.

2) Once you get through all of the episodes, you'll understand that the both of them are schmucks and both of them are heroes. They have different personalities and they do everything in a different way, but they're in the same place. And they're both jealous of each other (although they would never ever ever admit it). Angel cannot be good without a soul. His personality changes completely, and he's constantly worried about losing control. Spike with or without a soul is just Spike. There's a difference in regards to murders and such, but the personality doesn't change. Angel hates it that Spike doesn't suffer as much as he does. On the other hand, Spike is jealous of what Angel has. The girls always love Angel first. Angel can build a group of friends that would die for him (and all of them pretty much do, but that's another thing). Love is what Spike desperately wants but he can never get as much as he wants.

I just love the dynamic between the two of them. They fight like Itchy and Scratchy but deep down (deep, deep, deep, deep down) they love each other. They are the only two of their kind that exists and they happen to have over a century of shared history. All the reasons I love them together can be found in the last scene of "Damage".

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 1:14 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

I just can't get past the fact that all of Spike's actions are self-motivated. In Buffy 5,6 & 7 he was just trying to impress Buffy, and in Angel 5 he was competing against Angel. The strange thing about Spike is that he doesn't act an awful lot differently ensouled and than he did before. Maybe having the chip was a transitional period before having a soul and stopped him from having Angels 'be a tramp for 100 years' effect? Like methadone.

What about the Shanshu prophecy? Who is the vampire destined to fufil that? That's the one thing I wish Joss had answered before ending the season!!

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 6:30 AM

CYBERSNARK

If the prophecy is still in play, it has to go to Spike; Angel signed it away to W&H.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:14 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

Nope, Angel's signature on the prophecy was different to the ones we had seen previously on season 5. So, way I see it anyway, he bluffed the Black Thorn with that signature! So he's still in the running for Shanshu. Theres a few sites that show pictures of the different signatures. I think this one has them:
http://www.geocities.com/docevampirospike/english/angel/files/
I'm wasted at the moment, I love being a student...

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Sunday, October 29, 2006 7:51 AM

GROUNDED

He put pen to paper in his own blood, which I imagine in this context is a lot more important than what he actually writes. Besides, I doubt the Black Thorn could be fooled by a phony signature.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 12:28 AM

SERENITYINSCOTLAND

They were fooled by his crappy plan in general, why not by a phony signature? If it wasnt about what he wrote, he could have written anything - why his name?

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Monday, October 30, 2006 12:54 AM

BABYWITHTHEPOWER

Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

On topic: The tension between them is almost all Buffy related, though alot of Angel's animosity towards Spike is because of Spike constantly being a pain in the ass (something he does very well).

As to which one is the better person, I'd have to go with Angel. True Spike opted for his soul as opposed to Angel who was cursed with it for murdering a gypsy, it still doesn't compare to all of the good that Angel has accomplished in his quest for redemption. Spike is a very selfish character and up until his (not so) final sacrifice in Buffy, everything he did was motivated by some level of personal gain.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'll be in my bunk.
http://www.myspace.com/babywiththepower
http://members17.clubphoto.com/michael809717/guest-1.phtml

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Monday, October 30, 2006 6:20 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Even if so, are writers not allowed to change their minds?
"You were my Yoda, man!"
"She always did love to dance."

Topic:
Angel tries hard and works at being good, and Spike got Buffy for nothing. Plus what the others said above.

Angel is more noble because of the brooding.

Terse Chrisisall

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Monday, October 30, 2006 7:10 AM

DEEPGIRL187

Great posts so far, a lot of interesting ideas.

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Angel cannot be good without a soul. His personality changes completely, and he's constantly worried about losing control. Spike with or without a soul is just Spike. There's a difference in regards to murders and such, but the personality doesn't change.

Isn't it possible to use this arguement for Spike being the better of the two? Not through actions, obviously, but perhaps through character? I mean, the evil Angelus committed is legendary, whereas Spike, even at his worst, never really ascribed to such heinous behavior. His primary objective was more to have fun and be destructive than to cause pain and torment. I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, but I also think that there is more to Spike's behavior than self-gratification.

*************************************************

"So long and goodnight."

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Monday, October 30, 2006 7:35 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

My opinions are my own, I don't have any information from another source. I did not watch Buffy as it aired, only on dvd after the fact. It appeared to me that Spike was taken by surprise that it was his soul he received following his trials. I have no idea what the writers actually intended or what fans at the time thought.

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Monday, October 30, 2006 8:07 AM

GROOSALUGG

Quote:
Originally posted by ecgordon:
Quote:
Originally posted by babywiththepower:
Quote:
I don't understand why there are so many who actually believe Spike tried to get back his soul in order to be with Buffy. His intention was to get the chip out of his head, not to get a soul, and the writers cheated in Season 7 to make it seem his soul was what he was after all along.

Actually, when Spike left at the end of the season, he said Buffy would get "what she deserves". There was talk from that moment among the fans that Spike was looking for a soul. I'd like to know where you got your information because all the spoiler sites had the soul angle sinse the end of Season 6.

My opinions are my own, I don't have any information from another source. I did not watch Buffy as it aired, only on dvd after the fact. It appeared to me that Spike was taken by surprise that it was his soul he received following his trials. I have no idea what the writers actually intended or what fans at the time thought.

To me, the dead-giveaway that he was after the soul the whole time is that he never specifically tells the cave demon he wants the chip out. The writing--and James' acting--are done in a way to mislead you into thinking that, but when you go back and watch it again, you'll notice he's very ambiguous about the whole thing, and exactly what he wants. When you say that Spike was 'taken by surprise' by the soul thing, I disagree with you--he was screaming in pain, because getting the soul back hurt!

And as far as Angel vs. Spike, and which one's more noble and all that, I always get a kick out of how people compare them by putting present-day Angel up against present-day Spike. You wanna say Angel's better because he's selfless, working for redemption, etc., fine. But remember--he's had a hundred years since getting his soul back to get to this point. Spike's had two.

Instead, why not compare the two of them in their first two years of re-ensoulment? Spike's sacrificed himself closing a hellmouth, helped the helpless for several months in LA (I'm not gonna go episode-by-episode of AtS S5, listing his accomplishments), and possibly sacrificed himself again, helping to bring down the power-elite of the Apocalypse. (And all those things on 'Angel' were hardly done for selfish reasons, to impress Buffy--he didn't even want her to know he was back.)

Angel, meanwhile, was beating up men on the street and dragging their women into alleys. Crawling back to Darla and begging her to take him in. Killing humans (granted, rapists and murderers) to prove to her he could still be a vampire. Eventually disappearing into the gutters for the better part of a century, not helping anyone, until Whistler looked him up. Oh yeah, and why'd he sign on with Whistler's team and start doing the hero-thing? Because he got a look at Buffy, and fell in love. Gee, sound familiar?

Sorry, but I don't think this one's even close. Spike's the better man by a wide margin...

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Monday, October 30, 2006 8:22 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:

the evil Angelus committed is legendary, whereas Spike, even at his worst, never really ascribed to such heinous behavior. His primary objective was more to have fun and be destructive than to cause pain and torment.

Spike was like a cat with a mouse; have your fun, and then dinner.
Angelus was all about the lingering and continuing horror of his deeds. So he HAS to be twice as good to balance his twice as bad.

Spike was full of good, he just didn't use much of it Chrisisall

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Monday, October 30, 2006 8:26 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Groosalugg:

Instead, why not compare the two of them in their first two years of re-ensoulment? Spike's sacrificed himself closing a hellmouth, helped the helpless for several months in LA (I'm not gonna go episode-by-episode of AtS S5, listing his accomplishments), and possibly sacrificed himself again, helping to bring down the power-elite of the Apocalypse. (And all those things on 'Angel' were hardly done for selfish reasons, to impress Buffy--he didn't even want her to know he was back.)

Angel, meanwhile, was beating up men on the street and dragging their women into alleys. Crawling back to Darla and begging her to take him in. Killing humans (granted, rapists and murderers) to prove to her he could still be a vampire. Eventually disappearing into the gutters for the better part of a century, not helping anyone, until Whistler looked him up. Oh yeah, and why'd he sign on with Whistler's team and start doing the hero-thing? Because he got a look at Buffy, and fell in love. Gee, sound familiar?

Sorry, but I don't think this one's even close. Spike's the better man by a wide margin...

Whoah Groos, a very compelling argument, dude.

What he said Chrisisall

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Monday, October 30, 2006 9:09 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by deepgirl187:
I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here,

Well, vampire's advocate, anyway.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, October 31, 2006 5:06 PM

EMBERS

Spike didn't need the chip out,
if he had wanted to hurt Buffy then obviously he could already do that...
with the chip in place.

Joss had James (as Spike) play up the angry guy to fool people...
but they really should have gotten a clue
(and the joke)
once his soul was restored.

oh well, if people persist in not understanding what was clearly bait and switch then there is no point in arguing with them....

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Monday, November 20, 2006 8:28 AM

MRBLUESUN

In my opinion Spike beats Angel in terms of 'goodness' hands down. Firstly Angel had his soul forced upon him and has been nothing but a giant pain in the ass ever since, whearas Spike went and got a soul of his own free will and then set about helping Buffy beat up *insert villain of the week here*.
Also for thise of you who say that Angel fights the good fight for moral reasons whilst Spike does it solely for himself, guess again. The only reason that Angel is good is to try and escape his own feelings of guilt, hmm not so selfless now are we Angel cakes.

Spike: It's bollocks, Angel! It's your brand of bollocks from first to last!
Angel: You can't ever see the big picture. You can't see any picture!
Spike: I'm talking about something primal, all right? Savagery, brutal animal instinct.
Angel: Which wins out every time with you. You know, the human race has evolved, Spike!
Spike: Into a bunch of namby-pamby, self-analyzing wankers who could never hope to triumph against--
Angel: We're bigger, we're smarter, plus there's such a thing called teamwork, not to mention the superstitious fear of your "pure aggressors"!
Spike: You-just-want-it-to-be the way you-want-it-to-be.
Angel: IT'S NOT ABOUT WHAT I WANT!
[Bewildered Wesley enters]
Wesley: Is this something we should all be discussing?
Angel: [pauses] No.
Wesley: It sounded important.
Angel: It was mostly...theoretical...
Spike: Look, if cavemen and astronauts got into a fight, who would win?
Wesley: .....Ah. You've been yelling at each other for forty minutes about this?
[Angel and Spike look at the floor]

Wesley: [thinks for a moment] Do the astronaunts have weapons?
Spike and Angel: No.

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Monday, November 20, 2006 10:12 AM

ZORPRIME01

I agree that the writing in which Spike is regaining his soul is specifically done in a way to mislead the viewer. To make you believe he's having the chip removed, even though he never says it. What he says, specifically, is that he "wants to be what he once was." I saw Angel before Buffy, so when I got to this point in the series I already knew Spike got a soul, so I noticed this style of writing but wasn't thrown by it.

I have to agree that if either of the two re-souled vampires is to become human based on the Shanshu Prophecy, it must be Spike. Angel signed away his right to do so in the last epsiode. Argue all you want about loopholes, but really, would that make any sense within the story? I believe the reason Joss has expressed interest in making a Spike movie the last few years revolves around the Shanshu plot. And even though that would be a huge disappointment for Angel, it makes sense in the context of the story, and certainly a plot point that is brought up in Angel S5. Angel was cursed with a soul, whereas Spike voluntarily earned his, so it makes sense that Spike would be the one to receive the reward.

It's up for debate as far as exactly which of the two is more worthy (I'd probably go with Angel personally), but the narrative certainly points to Spike, albeit without directly stating it.

I guess all this discussion is kind of premature, in that we don't really know whether Blondie Bear or Captain Forehead (best name-calling ever!) even survived the final battle...

"If wishes were horses, we'd all be eatin' steak." - Jayne

"Looks like wishes are horses today." - Spike

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Monday, November 20, 2006 11:33 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by embers:

oh well, if people persist in not understanding what was clearly bait and switch then there is no point in arguing with them....

Having JUST watched the end of 6 and the beginning of 7 these last 2 weeks, I have to agree with ya totally, Em.

Nov. 28, the slim set of Angel season 5!!!

Too much Spike is not enough Chrisisall

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Monday, November 20, 2006 11:48 AM

AMYEL

And the thing is, if Spike got to be human... he'd HATE it! He'd have to cut down on the booze, cigs, and greasy food. All of his very favorite things are "bad" and he revels in it. If the Shanshu went to anyone, it'd be the writerly thing to do to give it to someone who'd hate it.

But I don't think Angel actually wants to be human either. He was human for a day and it went rather badly. He just wants the Shanshu because it means he'd be forgiven. The problem is that he's Angel, therefore he has a lot of guilt. I don't think that would ever go away, even if the Powers That Be themselves descended upon L.A. and said "Hey Angel! You're cool, stop worrying about it!". He'd still brood.

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Monday, December 4, 2006 6:26 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
If the Shanshu went to anyone, it'd be the writerly thing to do to give it to someone who'd hate it.

that's rather good

I was gonna say that I didn't believe either would shanshu because it would be too much of a happy ending with the blue fairy and everything, but I could see it being a new torture device, lol...

seems to me angel doesn't so much want to be human as to be redeemed. when he became human he knew that wasn't his redemption, similarly with the gem of amarra, when he was working towards the shanshu though I think he would have been just as happy if he didn't get to live a human but just got to die with a clean slate and not go to hell, so I do think he wanted it, he scoffed about not believeing in it but you could see how much he really wanted it to be true.

on spike I've said this before, but possibly on another board so I'll give my theory again. I think he was surprised by the soul, sort of. I think on the surface he was so angry (at himself and at her) and thought he wanted to get the chip out to kill her, to 'become what he was' but underneath (subconsciously maybe) all he really wanted was to be be good enough for her, i.e. human in his troubled brain. which is what the demon saw and gave him, maybe deliberately pervesely. so rather than it being re-written, I saw it as that he didn't understand his motives properly at the time, which we often don't in love

so while it was a mislead on the part of the writers I don't think it was dishonest or disrupted the continuity.

and I wouldn't like to say which is better or more noble, but I think spike's case is more interesting, the way he bounced back so quickly. he clearly experiences things much more intensely as he actually went completely crazy and was trying to cut it out and everything. angel, because he never went down that low took longer to work through it, which is sad, in some ways because he coped better it was harder for him

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 6:34 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by charliethebloody:
...

I think spike's case is more interesting, the way he bounced back so quickly. he clearly experiences things much more intensely as he actually went completely crazy and was trying to cut it out and everything. angel, because he never went down that low took longer to work through it, which is sad, in some ways because he coped better it was harder for him

As usual Charlie, I am actually touched by the love you have for the characters.
I am guessing that you are a writer yourself, or a philosophy/psychology major- or just a really cool and insightful person.

Impressed Chrisisall

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Tuesday, December 5, 2006 9:47 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

aw, you make me blush

< see

I did do philosophy and psychology at a-level (high school) but I don't think I learnt that much from them, it was more about what to regurgitate for the essays, (which is probably why I didn't do too well). I think you were right the first time, I just love the characters

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 3:48 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

David Fury believes that while they're both good men, Spike is slightly more noble than Angel because Spike CHOSE to get a soul while Angel had his forced on him in order to feel remorse for his sins, and that's also why Angel hates Spike so much, because he believes it's true. However, I personally don't see that it necessarily makes Spike more noble. He chose to get a soul not because he wanted one, but to impress a woman. He also chose NOT to allow himself to actually feel much remorse for the things that he did until he met the psycho slayer in season 5 of ANGEL. Angel's soul was forced on him, but he CHOSE to feel that remorse.

Basically, they're equal as far as I'm concerned.

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Thursday, December 7, 2006 3:48 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

Sorry!

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Friday, December 8, 2006 4:50 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:

Basically, they're equal as far as I'm concerned.

Apples and oranges, luv.

Seeing your point Chrisisall

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Friday, December 8, 2006 1:12 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

Jane Espenson confirmed a few years ago that Spike's intention all along was to get a soul, not to get the chip removed. The angry way Spike was acting up until that point really was an intentional mislead on the writers part.

I don't think he was actually taken by surprise. We were meant to think that, but actually I think it's supposed to be painful for the soul to be restored. Maybe that was the shocker.

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Friday, December 8, 2006 1:52 PM

BROWNCOATGIRL08

For question 1 i think that everyone forgets about the relationship the two vampires had before angel was turned good.

Spike and Angel had a physical relationship when angel was still bad. Its not really shown for obvious reasons, but thats where alot of the animosity comes from. Plus spike felt abandonded by angel. There were a family in the creepiest sence of the word and although spike would deny it he was hurt. Then there is the buffy thing, but thats been the most talked about so i dont feel the need to mention it any more.

As for question 2, well i never really like angel anyway so i have to go with spike.

-------------------------------------------------
That's the news from Sunnydale, where all the vampires are strong, all the slayers are good looking, and all of the Scoobies are above average."

See, this is a sign of your tragic space dementia. All paranoid and crotchety, it breaks the heart.

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Friday, December 8, 2006 2:17 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

I don't think the animosity comes from their past "relationship" so much as Dru. Angelus got off on torturing Spike (and everyone else), so he slept with Dru. I think the so-called relationship was probably a one-time thing they both choose to forget. I don't think Spike was as hurt by Angel as he was angry. He was hurt by Dru, but didn't love her any less.

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Friday, December 8, 2006 3:15 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by jwhedonaddict:
The angry way Spike was acting up until that point really was an intentional mislead on the writers part.

I knew it.

Uh huh Chrisisall

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Friday, December 8, 2006 3:29 PM

JWHEDONADDICT

Chrisisall:
Yep, me, too. Well, that's what I believed, anyway. It seemed a long time before it was actually confirmed though. I went back and rewatched it after that and even though I got it right all along, that his intentions were all somewhat noble-ish, I still wanted someone to bitch-slap him for the way he talked about her up till then!

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