Once they introduced Gunn, Angel lost it's edge. by chrisisall

ANGELUS ARCANUM

Once they introduced Gunn, Angel lost it's edge.

POSTED BY: CHRISISALL
UPDATED: Saturday, December 2, 2006 11:08
SHORT URL:
VIEWED: 6328
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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:07 AM

Gunn streetwise? How about streetdork.
The actor was fine, they just couldn't write a real black street kid with smarts and natural leadership ability.
Gunn came off as a comic book character, and they totally mishandled him. He finally got something interesting to do in season 5, but mostly he was wasted IMHO.

Getting a ball rolling Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:25 AM

JAHZARA

I have several problems with Angel, and the way it was handled, but I hardly think that Gunn is to blame.

Angel definitely lost its edge, and arguably before Gunn showed up, of after, depending on the fan, etc.

The major problem I have with Gunn is that he is SO not hard. I mean, I've been in some pretty rough neighborhoods (though not ANYTHING like LA) and Gunn would have SO gotten his ass kicked. I mean, J. August Richards is a good actor, but he got on my nerves as Gunn.

I think Gunn was an attempt to address the large minority populations that are in LA. Um, is that an oxymoron?

I do see, in that universe, street kids fighting vampires, etc., and doing it all on their own simply because no one cared enough to help or believe them, and I wish that had been explored more.

Gunn would have worked better perhaps as an associate or occasional part of the gang, but as a regular, it just seemed he got softer and softer. His gang would have been a hell of a lot more upset that he ran off and started playing Captain America with the white folk. And that's what they would have told him, sad as it is.

I mean, Gunn was sassy and all, but he wasn't hardcore. Several times during the show, my sister and I looked at one another, shaking our heads, knowing that's not how it would have even gone down.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:49 AM

CHRISISALL

Jahzara, you put into words what I...didn't.
Fine analysis. I don't blame the Gunn character for everything, he was just the most distracting thing for me personally.

And the name

Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:57 AM

MAVOURNEEN

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

And the nameChrisisall

Are you referring to her screen name?

"Jahzara" is Ethiopian for "Princess"
My friend named his daughter this...that's how I know...I'm not personally from Ethiopia.

Were you taking it to be a reference to "Al-Jazeera?"

I hope not.

Oh, and I agree with you that Gunn was distracting.

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:03 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

And the nameChrisisall

Are you referring to her screen name?

LOL!!!
No, I was referring to the name "Gunn"- laughably tough for a softy like him.
They could have made him all scarred and angry an' s**t, but he was so fluffy....

Her name is great Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:08 AM

MAVOURNEEN

omg...

See what happens when you jump to conclusions, kids???

You look like a dough head.

And here I was, all offended like!

"Have you ever been with a Warrior Woman?"

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:37 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:

You look like a dough head.

Sure an' ya don't, lass. 'Twas nuthin'.

Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 6:40 AM

GROUNDED

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Gunn streetwise? How about streetdork.
The actor was fine, they just couldn't write a real black street kid with smarts and natural leadership ability.
Gunn came off as a comic book character, and they totally mishandled him. He finally got something interesting to do in season 5, but mostly he was wasted IMHO.

I agree he wasn't handled all that well, but I don't think his introduction had a negative effect on the show beyond the character himself. S2 was an absolute blinder of a season - Gunn as a character had little or no genuine effect on it, so while he was perhaps superfluous he didn't actually degrade the quality of the stories.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:00 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I liked Gunn! Okay, as a character he wasn't always handled brilliantly, but I thought the fact that he wasn't nearly tough enough to lead a gang was sort of the point. He forced himself into that role to help protect his sister. When she died he lost a large part of what kept him fighting, so he didn't have the same fire that made him a natutal leader. Hence him leaving his crew to their own devices and them abandoning him in turn.

It makes sense to me that he would fall in with Angel and the gang rather than stay somewhere that reminded him daily of (what must have seemed to him) his dismal failure to protect his sister. Some of the writing for him was a bit forced at times, but he still wound up being one of my favourites from the show.

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:12 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by DesktopHippie:
When she died he lost a large part of what kept him fighting, so he didn't have the same fire that made him a natutal leader.

Okay, good point...

Both sides Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:33 AM

CYBERSNARK

Besides, the Buffyverse as a whole is filled with badasses who were not actually badass. Spike, Giles, Xander --heck, even Angel himself was a numbskull.

You're right that Gunn wasn't really street-tough, but he does kinda strike me as what, say, Xander might have become if he'd lived in L.A.

Really, Gunn probably wasn't ghetto. Probably grew up in the good part of town, went to school every day, never cut class, wore glasses, wanted to go to college, etc.

Probably something like a young Carlton from Fresh Prince.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:44 AM

DESKTOPHIPPIE

I can't see Gunn having come from that kind of background, mostly because we would have heard about it at some point. Especially from his crew when he abandoned them - they would have mocked him for "pretending" he was one of them for a while.

Not everybody from a rough background is automatically streetwise and tough. I grew up in a pretty rough area of Dublin, which was surrounded by tough, streetwise kids. The problem was that for some reason I never got tough or streetwise. I just got bullied like hell instead. I learned to survive, and the place I grew up in isn't anything near as rough as where Gunn grew up, but do remember that softies show up everywhere!

More animations available at http://desktophippie.googlepages.com

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:48 AM

EMBERS

yes communication online is hard...
everyone talking to cross purposes.

But I have to say I disagree:

I liked Gunn, and I liked the idea of Gunn (keeping this show set in LA from being all white out-of-towners)
but I do agree that he was under-utilized, but that is a common problem w/the ensamble shows. I mean look at BtVS where Oz, Tara, and in later seasons even Giles and Xander, were totally under utilized.

There were only 13 episodes of Firefly but in a few of them Book and Inara hardly ever appear (actually Book never appears in 'Ariel').

So I guess the question is, how hard edged did Gunn really have to be? Because obviously he did come to trust these people fairly quickly (and loved Fred).....

But I'll admit that I loved his character a lot more in Season 5 when he got all articulate and in the sexy suits

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Monday, August 21, 2006 9:20 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by Jahzara:
The major problem I have with Gunn is that he is SO not hard. I mean, I've been in some pretty rough neighborhoods (though not ANYTHING like LA) and Gunn would have SO gotten his ass kicked.

Wait, wait...you're mad because Gunn wasn't the stereotypical young, black thug? I completely appreciated that aspect of his character. He didn't form his gang because he was looking for power or money or even a little influence in a society that otherwise ignores him...he formed the gang to protect his family and neighborhood. That driving force does not make someone hard. It's a completely different motivation.

You can see the effects of the different motivation in 'That Old Gang of Mine.' There is the same gang lead by someone not trying to make a better neighborhood or world, but someone high on power....

Gunn wasn't my favorite character, but not because he didn't fit some stereotype of a hard inner-city kid.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, August 21, 2006 9:59 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Gunn wasn't my favorite character, but not because he didn't fit some stereotype of a hard inner-city kid.

Not talkin' about stereotypes- he just didn't come off as battle-tested. He didn't have superpowers like Buffy, nor was he a vampire. His strength had to come from, like, STRENGTH. He looked a little soft, and had no scars for his fighting, and was too quick to trust outsiders.
He was like a Superfriend- "Oh, you're a Hero too? Good, let's fight evil TOGETHER!"
It was too easy. His quips were too slick and forced.
He just didn't ring true (to me), as written. Maybe that's a GOOD thing for some folk- I dunno.

As I saw it Chrisisall

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:11 AM

RUGBUG

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
Quote:
Originally posted by RugBug:

Gunn wasn't my favorite character, but not because he didn't fit some stereotype of a hard inner-city kid.

Not talkin' about stereotypes

Nyah, you didn't, but the person I quoted did.

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
He looked a little soft, and had no scars for his fighting, and was too quick to trust outsiders.

I agree. Didn't J. August Richards say something at one point about how they never really showed Gunn without his shirt on because he was skinny with no muscles to speak of? He was suppose to be the muscle and yet he had none. That cracked me up, and then I watched some more eps and laughed 'cause he was right.

***************
"The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." - George Bernard Shaw

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Monday, August 21, 2006 11:26 AM

FUTUREMRSFILLION

Quote:
Originally posted by Mavourneen:
Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:

I'm not personally from Ethiopia.

I AM

Well it WAS Ethiopia at the time! Now it is back to being Eritrea.

Tracywasthereisall

----
I am on The List. We are The Forsaken and we aim to burn!
"We don't fear the reaper"

one of the Forsaken TM

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Monday, August 21, 2006 2:37 PM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Really, Gunn probably wasn't ghetto. Probably grew up in the good part of town, went to school every day, never cut class, wore glasses, wanted to go to college, etc.

errrr... probably not

(from War Zone)
Alonna: "Remember when we were kids - in that shelter on Plummer Street, hmm? Second floor was all rotted out. ... You used to dare kids to cross..."

I've never been to L.A., but I assume that dilapidated homeless shelters usually aren't located in nice neighborhoods.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 2:45 PM

AMYEL

Quote:
Originally posted by chrisisall:
I was referring to the name "Gunn"- laughably tough for a softy like him.
They could have made him all scarred and angry an' s**t, but he was so fluffy....

Interesting fact, Gunn was named after the brothers James and Sean Gunn. James is a writer/director (Slither) who once worked with Joss on a pilot script that never saw the light of day. Sean Gunn is an actor who played two different parts on AtS (in Hero and She--one demon in heavy makeup, one human, respectively) but is mostly known for playing wacky townie Kurt on Gilmore Girls. They are neither tough or hardcore looking. Actually, they're both geeky looking extremely white Irish-Americans. But they're friends of Joss and he named a character after them.

So the name 'Gunn' wasn't necessarily meant to be a tough-guy nomenclature.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 5:46 PM

GROOSALUGG

I don't like or dislike Gunn, and don't really feel he had either a positive or negative impact on the quality of the show. I hardly think it's fair to say that the whole show "lost its edge" because of him. Especially coming from someone who's only seen 60% of the episodes.

Chris, give those other two seasons a chance before lowering the boom on the show for good.

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Monday, August 21, 2006 7:40 PM

STAKETHELURK

Quote:
Originally posted by Chrisisall:
Gunn streetwise? How about streetdork.
The actor was fine, they just couldn't write a real black street kid with smarts and natural leadership ability.
Gunn came off as a comic book character, and they totally mishandled him. He finally got something interesting to do in season 5, but mostly he was wasted IMHO.

Since when did Angel lose its edge?

As for Gunn, I’ll admit the character was not my favorite but neither was he a drag on the show. Sometimes he managed to pull off the streetwise thing and sometimes he didn’t, but then that aspect of his character is largely dropped by Season Three.

Joss and the other writers mention several times that the character was often troublesome for them because while they liked Gunn and they liked J. August Richards, it could be difficult to place him in the team--he didn’t quite fit into a special niche in the ensemble. He doesn’t have Wesley’s knowledge of demons and magic, nor Cordy’s visions, nor Fred’s knowledge of science, nor Lorne’s empathic abilities, and while he’s often referred to as “the muscle,” he doesn’t have Angel’s superstrength or resistance to conventional weaponry. In seasons one and two, he is able to bring in additional resources as leader of his own crew, but as he becomes increasingly involved in Angel’s cases he loses those outside contacts and resources. His story arc in season two is all about him deciding that he can do more good working with Angel and realizing that means walking away from his old position and his old neighborhood. I suspect that the writers were trying to portray him as “streetwise” to help give him some ability that no one else on the ensemble had, to justify his place on the show as they pulled him away from his old gang. Yet that aspect of him tended to vanish after season two, besides the occasional callback for continuity’s sake.

In seasons three and four, the writers show Gunn grappling with consequences of his decision in season two by using a technique Joss often relies on when he has a problem writing something: he makes the writers’ problem the character’s problem. In those two middle seasons, Gunn begins to feel that he’s extraneous to the Fang Gang, that maybe he made the wrong choice. He’s trying to find his place there, and can’t seem to manage it, and this bothers him a great deal, especially since the only role he seems able to fulfill is that of the “muscle,” which does not please him since anybody who can carry an axe can be “muscle.” Those fears and concerns that were developed over those two season are what underlie his storyline in Season Five, Chris—his well-developed fears of inadequacy and uselessness are what help make him the most eager to accept W&H’s deal, since it finally gave him his own unique space. Made him feel special, and useful.

And as for Gunn lacking natural leadership qualities, I certainly didn’t see him that way. I felt he was capable of being a leader and indeed used to it--although when we first see him, he quickly becomes vulnerable after the loss of his sister and this vulnerability, combined with his deep sense of guilt over failure, undermine his authority and ability to lead. Still, I very much bought him as a leader and also liked that part of his story arc particularly in season two was about him struggling to learn how to follow someone else’s lead after years of being the guy in charge. To see how much Gunn changes from his past self, one need only look at “Spin the Bottle” from Season Four, one of the show’s best episodes. There, we get an example of Gunn being a leader and taking charge, as well as butting heads with another would-be leader. This episodes reveals both his strengths as well as his weaknesses as a leader and as a character pre-Angel.

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 3:58 AM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by StakeTheLurk:
To see how much Gunn changes from his past self, one need only look at “Spin the Bottle” from Season Four, one of the show’s best episodes. There, we get an example of Gunn being a leader and taking charge, as well as butting heads with another would-be leader. This episodes reveals both his strengths as well as his weaknesses as a leader and as a character pre-Angel.

Groosalug is right; I must Netflix S3 and S4.

Knew it would come to this Chrisisall

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Tuesday, August 22, 2006 5:23 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by amyel:
Sean Gunn is an actor who played two different parts on AtS (in Hero and She--one demon in heavy makeup, one human, respectively) but is mostly known for playing wacky townie Kurt on Gilmore Girls.

Nitpick: Kirk is the wacky townie.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, August 26, 2006 6:11 AM

THEBURNOUTKID

I think that Gunn was usually just distracting or annoying or...there. Just there. But I felt like his character became worth it in the end. He had the place that Xander had in the later seasons: he was just there in a mercenary capacity and had no special abilities to weave him neatly into the story. He was the person standing on the outside looking in. The 5th wheel. Everyone's been in that position at one point or another during their life...where you're no longer useful and wonder "what am I doing here? what's my purpose? do I have one anymore?"

I felt like he was useful and I liked his character. The only thing I really didn't like was his relationship with Fred...not for racial reasons because I've dated interracially before, just because their personalities just didn't fit to me at all and it all seemed kind of silly.

[IMG]

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I'm a leaf on the wind...watch how I soar.

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Friday, October 13, 2006 9:04 PM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

I think Gunn's character was ok to begin with, but when he fell in love with Fred...that started the downslide. He got softer which was sorta ok I guess but he also got mushy. BAD MOOVE. Mushy Gunn is lame Gunn in my opinion, and as segments of him with Fred dotted that season it gave the season a bad taste. Although, mushy Gunn aside, it was a pretty good season.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 12:12 PM

WRATCHIT

Gunn was a good charachter....up until J. August Richards had to act like a hot-shot lawyer.

He does an okay job of it (as he plays to this day) but never really pulled it off IMO. He was better when he just wanted to hit people.

Were there monkeys? Some terrifying space monkeys maybe got loose?

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Friday, November 24, 2006 7:09 PM

CHRISISALL

Funny, season 5 was when I liked him the most...

Gunn-toting Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:40 PM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

Gunn..? Season 5....? LIKED??????

You've got to be kidding.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:49 PM

CHRISISALL

Quote:
Originally posted by BuffyAngelfreak:
Gunn..? Season 5....? LIKED??????

You've got to be kidding.

No, I finally liked him.
You got a problem wit dat?????

Gunn-shooting Chrisisall

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:49 PM

CHRISISALL

Ugghhhhh.......double post....................the pain..................

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Friday, November 24, 2006 9:52 PM

BUFFYANGELFREAK

Huh.... wierd.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 10:34 PM

DAX82

Well said. I couldnt agree with you more.

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Friday, November 24, 2006 11:02 PM

THESOMNAMBULIST

Hey Big G :D

Interesting you and me - we're on different sides of the fence here.

Gunn I thought added - especially in his initial stint - a kind of grounding into some semblance of reality. Not TRUE reality of course, but a an audiece reality, where all the mythos of angel 'past' had to be explained.

He was at his best when in conflict with Angel, and this worked even until the later seasons.

The areas where he didn't work were with the times when he wanted 'in' with the gang. That came about too quickly and a personality like that would never have wanted to stay in an office answering phones...

But it was refreshing that he wasn't some kind of pimp daddy that presented himself as all knowing about LA and prevelant with a entourage of fine looking ladies... er well ok that may have been cool but... No no bad Somnambulist... :D

Er hum... Anyway J August Richards did a great job with Gunn and I especially liked his turn on the character when confronted with Fred. Their relastionship, theough extremely contrived, worked mainly in part because of 'J' he always gave the appropriate amount of pathos...

But as for the writers not being able to write good streetwise characters... I dunno... I mean I haven't the references to be able to make a formative critique, but I think within the boundaries of the show I think they did a pretty good job - I mean I don't think for a show like Angel we want to be looking at a 'Boyz in d Hood' interpretation of the character, it's just too too heavy.

www.cirqus.com

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Saturday, November 25, 2006 2:09 AM

JWHEDONADDICT

Actually, it was around the time Gunn was introduced at the end of Season 1 (but mostly Season 2) that Angel as a show became less of a show that I wanted to see because it was Joss and featured characters I loved from Buffy and morphed into a show I NEEDED to see. I don't think Gunn distracted from that at all. ]

Side note: It was the episode in Season 2 when Angel had the epiphany and they were on the way to save Cordy and Gunn told Angel that if anything happened to her, Gunn might have an epiphany himself regarding Angel that I realized how much I loved Gunn. Angel was the star of the show and at the time my favorite character on the show, yet here I was thrilled beyond belief at newbie Gunn's thinly-veiled threat to dust him if he caused Cordy to get hurt.

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Saturday, December 2, 2006 11:08 AM

CHARLIETHEBLOODY

same here, towards the end of season one was when angel started picking up pace, it never really occurred to me how realistic or not gunn might be, he worked as a character, for me. course being a middle class white girl in suburban england I'm probably not the best judge of what would cut it on the mean streets of LA

and I never felt he was just there, I liked the way he fitted with the group dynamic, his grudging relationship with angel and the whole unlikely friendship with wesley and then the falling out over fred. he wasn't always centre stage but there was always stuff going on.

--------------------------------------
"I'm an artist, with an e and a beret."

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