Is it wrong to like grown-up stuff? At least on this site? by reginaroadie

TALK STORY

Is it wrong to like grown-up stuff? At least on this site?

POSTED BY: REGINAROADIE
UPDATED: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 15:14
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VIEWED: 2934
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Monday, September 18, 2006 6:34 AM

Hey All

Well, last night I finally got through season 5 of ANGEL. It was a true roller coaster of emotions and thought the last scene truly crystalized the whole point of the show. And I was watching and listening to the special features of the DVD and hearing Joss talk about how he prefers to use fantasy to examine the real world and the quote about he doesn't want to make "grown-up" shows. And I wholeheartedly agree with the former sentiment and the proof is in the pudding.

But I can't help but feel a bit isolated by throwing myself into Jossworld and this site and all that. It's just that, while I do enjoy sci-fi and fantasy (especially stuff done this well), I actually happen to like some of the "grown-up" stuff that no one seems to mention here.

I love indie films and stuff that gets their premieres at film festivals like Sundance, Cannes and Toronto. I love political documentaries, as well as rockumentaries. The cable channel I'm getting more and more into nowadays is Turner Classic Movies. At first, I was dubious about the claim, but every time I see it, I'm closer and closer to believing that CITIZEN KANE truly is the greatest movie of all time. I love shows like 24, THE OFFICE, SIX FEET UNDER and THE SOPRANOS. Last night, I saw the premiere of STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET STRIP and loved every minute of it and can't wait to see the next episode.

It's weird, as I get older, I find myself drawn more to I guess more actual grown-up stuff. I seek out true substance over style. Even though my dream project as a filmmaker is to turn the comic book BONE into either a $100 million dollar HBO miniseries, or an animatedserise akin to BATMAN: TAS, my mission statement is to find the extraordinary within the ordinary, because I think people can identify with those stories far more than a group of random people stopping the apocalypse for the umpteenth time.

But I get the sense that if I try to spark up a discussion about any of these things here, that I'd be getting the cold shoulder. That unless if it has anyone from Joss's camp involved with it, than it's sub-par and below our standards.

Am I alone in this? In order to have a discussion about any of these things, do I have to go to another site, or can I have my cake and eat it too by staying with this site? Does anyone here share my fascination with anything on the above list? Or should all my future posts only involve FIREFLY or anything sci-fi related?

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"There's only one "Return" ok, and it ain't "of the King", it's "of the Jedi."

"Maybe we should start calling your friend 'Padme' because he loves 'Mannequin Skywalker' so much, Right? (imitating robot) Danger...danger...my name is Anakin...my shitty acting is ruining saga."

Excerpt of internet teaser for CLERKS 2.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 6:54 AM

EMBERS

of course it is okay to like more serious,
non genre stuff...
but you'll find an emphisis on discussing sci-fi and of course anything else by Joss Whedon here,
since it is a site designed for the discussion of Firefly & Serenity.

Personally I'm the opposite of you:
when I was in my twenties all I read were philosphy books, or novels by Hermann Hesse
or Jean-Paul Sartre.
I watched mostly foreign films, and I loved them...

but now that I'm old I just wanna laugh,
or be taken to strange new worlds
(but I still love 'idea' driven stories with interesting philosphical ideas)

At any rate, if you want to get into deep discussions about something that is not in any way related to Joss Whedon's work,
you might google your subjects and see if you can't find the fandom of whatever you are wanting to discuss....
no one is stopping you from OT topics here, but you'll find fewer takers.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 7:04 AM

PAGANPAUL

I personally love movies like The Manchurian Candidate (the old B&W one, not the crappy recent remake) and have seen Citizen Cane about a dozen times.

There's nothing wrong with starting a discussion about movies, media, etc. other than Joss related or SciFi shows, but do keep in mind that this is FireFlyFans.Net, and the main reason we are all here is because of FF and Serenity.

Quote:
Originally posted by reginaroadie:
That unless if it has anyone from Joss's camp involved with it, than it's sub-par and below our standards.

Well, I never said it wasn't below our standards...

* - * - * - * - * - * -We are the FORSAKEN, and we aim to burn!- * - * - * - * - * - * - *

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Monday, September 18, 2006 7:04 AM

ECGORDON

There's no place I can be since I found Serenity.

I already responded to this in your blog entry, so I won't duplicate it here.

wo men ren ran zai fei xing.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 2:19 PM

TRAVELER

Hello Reginaroadie:

Of course we have all different tastes.
My favorite movie of all time is "A Tree Grows In Brooklyn". You'll never find a better story of human endurance than this movie.

Pagan Paul mentioned "Manchurin Candidate", the original. Another fine film. One of my favorites. I thought Pagan Paul and I had something in common.

I have more VHS tapes and now DVD's of scores of excellent movies. Some are westerns like John Wayne's "The Searchers", one of his greatess performances.

How about lost souls, "The Misfits", starring Marilyn Monroe and Clark Gable. Or "Tender Mercies", with Robert Duvall.

You want war stories. "Enemy at the Gates", "Twelve O'clock High", and "Glory".

But I have comedy too. "Bringing Up Baby", "Much Ado About Nothing".

I don't think I'm alone. I'm sure others have movies and TV shows they enjoy.

But Firefly is adult. I did not think much of Jayne until Mal had him in the airlock at the end of "Ariel". Jayne expected to die. But what did he plead for? His life. No. He didn't want Mal to tell the others why. Jayne felt shame. Mal got through to him. It took a wrench to the head, but it worked. I began to see Jayne was a serious part of this show. I should of seen it earlier, but was to dense to notice. That is why I enjoy this site. I have discussed all the Firefly characters with others. Reading their posts about Firefly with true zeal.

I would give you a list of my books, but that would take a week. Lets just say I have books stacked in every corner of my apartment.

So enjoy other things. There is nothing wrong with having a feast. You don't need our approval. Just remember to have some fun along the way.

Browncoats wear many merit badges
Traveler

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Monday, September 18, 2006 2:36 PM

KAYNA

I love my captain

Love whatever you want and feel free to bring it up. As pointed out, there might be a few less takers here but that doesn't mean you're alone.

And actually, I think Firefly and some of Joss' other projects are p;enty grown up. I think he was being a little sarcastic because lots of people think of SciFi/Fantasy as "kids stuff". They don't take it seriously. Listen to Joss' commentary on OiS. He is obviously a fan of all that "grown up" stuff. Maybe if you tie it in with something like that you can attract a few more people and have a wonderful, thoughtful conversation.

And I like the "grown up" (god I hate that term) stuff too. My bookshelves are filled with books on art and history, as well as "classic" literature and poetry (I love Emerson) right along side my Chronicles of Valdemar (long fantasy series) and my comic books and Stephen King books.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Op: You're fighting a war you've already lost.
Mal: Yeah, well I'm known for that.

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Monday, September 18, 2006 3:00 PM

TWITCH

I had to smile, reading this thread. I don't think there's that much of a division between SF and "grown up" stuff. It's having both, and then some, that makes for a richer story.

One of my favorite aspects of Firefly is how neatly its creators side-stepped some of the persistent points of departure in SF. How do you get around faster than light travel? You don't: Make all the destinations exist inside a single solar system. (How'd people get there? No need to explain: it's not a plot element.) What does Serenity sound like? In atmo it goes "Roar!" In vacuum it doesn't make a sound at all. (THANK YOU!) How do the brakes work on a spaceship? The pilot answered this one in a beautiful display of Newton's laws when the Reavers end-for-ended before entering atmo.

Think a kid gives a rat's ass? Probably not. But now the "grown up" physics geeks in the audience get to hoot and holler right along with the kids when Serenity pulls a crazy Ivan, and not even have to go "tsk-tsk" because of any blatant violations of physics. (Though the engineering geeks may still flinch because of the enormous mechanical stresses the airframe is taking, but that's beside the point. She's a good ship.)

It's this same quality that makes the old Bugs Bunny cartoons a hoot to watch. Sure, kids love 'em. But they were written for "grown ups" and a lot of the humor depends on "grown up" things. The end result is that they have wider appeal, and as you re-watch them you get different things out of them.

Enjoying kids stuff doesn't mean you have to set grown up stuff aside or vice-versa. It's when you find something that satisfies both those needs that you know you've struck gold.

-- Twitch

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:00 AM

SERYN

why is Firefly not adult stuff? even the crudest proof (the fairly graphic depictions of sex death and violence for one) not counting, its main themes of family, duty, faith and humanity is pretty adult - far more personal, universal, complex demanding and quietly epic than your average save a patient and sleep with the cute doctor/save the planet from a bunch of terrorists without pissing for 24 hours show.

It annoys me that time and time again people seem to have this opinion that science fiction is kiddies stuff. When the reverse is true. Since the first novel posing the grand question of 'what if?' hit the shelf its been dealing with the plight and potential of the human race right to its very basic foundations.

Does C.S.I do that?

It makes me want to scream when people sit there denigrating scifi (oh, no, its not sci fi, its much better than that...) because underneath the flashy ships and aliens (which, come one, are frickin cool) its far deeper and much more pertinent than some of the vacuous rubbish that parades its self as adult drama.

blah blah bitch bitch moan.

one more thing - what is it with this opinion that old is better than new? thats just rubbish. Just becuase its black and white makes it better than new stuff? thats crap - there are some terrible terrible things being shown on TRM (which i've been a regular veiwer of for a long time) same as there some pap being churned out now. The best films of all time, according to 'them' span the whole of cinemas life (Citizen Kane, Space 2001 etc) but the majorty of them are post war, and a large majority of them are scifi, or fantasy at least - the next film likely to join the list (that hasn't even been completed yet) is The Fountain - oh look, another sci fi.

To sum up - Firefly - adult entertainment, but with universal appeal, sci fi - a means to explore the wider ideas and concepts important to the development of our race, with cool gizmos, exciting fun and attractive folks, new movies - when well done, better than most anything else out there.

wow, long rant.

it annoys me tis all.

And If you want to talk about other stuff, theres a grand old spot on this board, two infact, called General Discussions and Other T.V. Shows.

http://www.myspace.com/seryndippyt

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 11:06 AM

MSG

Discuss away. You've done an excellent job creating a thought provoking comment right here...so good job!

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:43 PM

ADAMWANKENOBI

Quote:
But now the "grown up" physics geeks in the audience get to hoot and holler right along with the kids when Serenity pulls a crazy Ivan, and not even have to go "tsk-tsk" because of any blatant violations of physics.

Yes, I am one of those people.

Quote:
far more personal, universal, complex demanding and quietly epic than your average save a patient and sleep with the cute doctor/save the planet from a bunch of terrorists without pissing for 24 hours show.

Those type of shows are actually adolescent-type crap disguised as "grown-up".

Quote:
one more thing - what is it with this opinion that old is better than new? thats just rubbish. Just becuase its black and white makes it better than new stuff? thats crap - there are some terrible terrible things being shown on TRM (which i've been a regular veiwer of for a long time) same as there some pap being churned out now.

I honestly think the philosophy of TCM and all of those pretentious film critics is "If it's black and white and/or old, it automatically gets four stars."

Quote:
At first, I was dubious about the claim, but every time I see it, I'm closer and closer to believing that CITIZEN KANE truly is the greatest movie of all time.

It ties with 2001: A Space Odyssey.

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 12:54 PM

DEEPGIRL187

Quote:
Originally posted by twitch:
It's this same quality that makes the old Bugs Bunny cartoons a hoot to watch. Sure, kids love 'em. But they were written for "grown ups" and a lot of the humor depends on "grown up" things. The end result is that they have wider appeal, and as you re-watch them you get different things out of them.

I find Looney Tunes even more funny as I've grown up. It's amazing how many things go over you're head when you're a kid.

I agree with most that Firefly is an adult series. I started watching Buffy and Angel recently, and one of the most interesting things I've noticed is how Firefly deals with more serious subject matter. It's almost as if you can see how Joss's writing has matured over the years.

It's still okay to enjoy "grown-up" shows though. Personally, I'm a die-hard House fan. It's the only show that comes close to Firefly in my book (well, next to Buffy and Angel).

*************************************************

"It sure as hell ain't normal, but we deal."

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:16 PM

CHRONICTHEHEDGEHOG

I think you're not looking hard enough! Obviously the majority of stuff is JW related (it actually seems to get more Whedon-related as time goes on), but have a good look at all the posts, especially some of the older stuff, and there's a large amount of non-Whedon stuff too. Plus, if you wanna talk about something, post about it! You're bound to find someone else who's interested.

-------------------------------------------------

I do not kill with my hand.
He who kills with his hand has forgotten the face of his father.
I kill with my heart.

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 1:17 PM

REGINAROADIE

Thanks for all the responses I've been getting on this. It's nice to know that a lot of you guys share the same tastes as I do, and that it's OK to post threads about other non sci-fi or non-Joss shows on here.

I do have to disagree on one thing I've read here in saying that 24 is an adolescent fantasy or something akin to that. Right from the beginning, 24 has been much more complex than a regular action series. I read somewhere in that it's taken the mantle of THE X-FILES in that it's really a show about our cultures collective fears. 24 for me is more of a commentary on the "war on terror" and the complexities that are involved with it. It's neither pro nor anti-Bush and can appeal to both Red and Blue Staters. In a way, it's kind of a spiritual brother to ANGEL in that it deals with the shades of grey that is the battle between good and evil. I mean, Jack Bauer is basically Angel without the fangs and male model looks and attire.

Since Joss likes to have these Shakespeare readings at his house on Sundays with his cast, I think he'd get a kick out of the presidential storylines. In closely looking at them, I've caught references to MACBETH, HAMLET, JULIUS CAESAR, KING LEAR, the list goes on and on.

But the main thing about this show is that it's an honest to God tragedy. The show is basically about a guy who can save the world over and over again, but he can't save the people that are closest to him. At least Buffy, Angel and Mal can fall back on the family they've created. Jack, he can only have fleeting relationships with people before they're cut down.

Nevertheless, it's still a thrilling show. And can't wait for it to start up in January. I hear that Jack's dad is going to be on the show this season. Only instead of him being played by Donald Sutherland, it'll be James Cromwell playing him. Right now, I'm thinking it's a good runner-up. But knowing how kick ass he is as an actor, I know it's going to be so cool. And fan fave Milo from season 1 is coming back. Can't wait for him to sparr with Chloe.

Sweet lord, I'm hijacking my own thread. Back to the topic.

**************************************************
"I have no reason to believe you and every reason not to."
"Why's that?"
"You work in television."

STUDIO 60 ON THE SUNSET STRIP

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 2:02 PM

YINYANG

You were busy trying to get yourself lit on fire. It happens.

Quote:
I do have to disagree on one thing I've read here in saying that 24 is an adolescent fantasy or something akin to that.

Just finished reading all of this, and I don't think anyone said that 24 was a bad show. They said that shows with people who can go for 24 hours without feeling any bodily urges (I'm paraphrasing, of course) are unrealistic, and adolescent in a way.

Or, maybe they are talking about 24. I've honestly never had the urge to see it, so...

::shrugs::

---

"What the world needs now is love, sweet love -
It's the only thing that there's just too little of
What the world needs now is love, sweet love,
No, not just for some, but for everyone."

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 3:04 PM

TWITCH

I'm glad someone else likes Looney Toons as much as I do!

As far as Seryn's observation that SF does not equate to kid's stuff, you're right on the money. There IS SF that's kid's stuff. I tend not to read it twice. It's the SF that makes you stop and go "ARrooo?!" that really gets me. There have been a handful of books that have done that to me. Those are the ones I find myself turning to time and again, and I always get something new out of them. It's not because they've changed. I have.

Glad to see there's at least one other physics geek in the audience! It's a rare thing to find a writer who can stay close to the physically possible and still build really good characters. Only doubles the tears that Firefly's no longer running.

I don't think you can point at a genre and say, "Kid's Stuff" or "Grown Up". It depends too much on the writer. I've found fantasy that was obviously written by a writer who knew their history, their mythology, their ancient cultures, etc. DAMN that's a fine read. I've also run into fantasy writers who obviously gleaned their entire knowlege of the ancient world from too many sessions of D&D. The same holds true for SF, westerns, modern crime capers, mysteries, etc.

I don't watch 24, but that's mostly because I don't watch much TV.

-- Twitch

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 3:13 PM

MSG

I love Loony Tunes...and may I say the Fairly Oddparents are really funny....Cosmo sends me into hysterics

I choose to rise instead of fall- U2

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Tuesday, September 19, 2006 3:14 PM

NCBROWNCOAT

There's a lot of 'grownup stuff" in Firefly/Serenity if you look for it.
The names most of the planets are from Egyptian,Greek and Roman mythology. There are lots of references to the Beatles, Shakespeare, classic literature, pop culture and other scifi references.

If you persued every reference that Joss makes in Firefly/Serenity you'd have a good well rounded "grownup" education

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