autism the reality of it by boris

I just finished reading the article and as a mother of an "Aspie"(and possibly somewhere on the spectrum myself) I really liked Mr. Ne'eman's ideas. I forwarded a link to my daughter and I'll be interested to see her reaction to it.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Saturday, October 9, 2010 6:54 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

The Wired article mentioned a mother who had murdered her autistic child because she couldn’t deal with the fact that he wasn’t normal. That gave me the thought that River's parents did not rescue River from the Academy because they did not want her back. I imagine they treat her like she is autistic. Or as the Wired article said, “How do we make autistic people behave more normally? How do we get them to increase eye contact and make small talk while suppressing hand-flapping and other stims?”

The usual explanations on fireflyfans.net are that River's parents abandon her because they were intimidated by the Alliance or colluding with it. Instead, if you imagine that her parents were pious Christians while River was a loudmouth autistic anti-Christian (remember her editing Book's bible?) that would explain why her parents don't want her around. If the Alliance falsely promised that River will return home as a good little believer, her parents are happy to let her be indoctrinated in the reeducation camp.

Simon, with his poor social skills, comes across as a high functioning autistic, like I imagine River was before the Alliance got her. And Kaylee can't drag Simon into bed suggests he's a pious Christian. Maybe that's why the parents weren't telling Simon the real reason River was gone. He'd resent it.

Sorry for making this about Firefly. It's what I do.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Saturday, October 9, 2010 11:47 AM

CYBERSNARK

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Kaylee can't drag Simon into bed suggests he's a pious Christian.

In defense of pious Christians, it suggests more that Simon is a boob.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Saturday, October 9, 2010 12:21 PM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Kaylee can't drag Simon into bed suggests he's a pious Christian.
In defense of pious Christians, it suggests more that Simon is a boob.

The formula I was using was that impious Christians fornicate often and feel shallow guilt, whereas pious Christians don't fornicate often and feel deep shame when they fail. I know there's sin, confession, penitence, but some Christians aren't really serious about their Christianity. With Simon, everything is serious as death. He is an overachiever Boy Scout with 50 merit badges for stuff like helping old ladies cross the street.

And Simon is also a boob that doesn't pickup on social signals that are subtle. I guess (can't prove, much like my notion Simon is a serious Christian) Joss put him somewhere on the autistic spectrum.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:27 AM

Hey Two one of the reasons Firefly appeals to me Is that I get where River and Simon are coming from. so feel free to make it about Firefly. :-)

Rose S

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 1:30 AM

As a diagnosed ASD'er I really like what Ne emen had to say. anyone who advocates for acceptance of diversity gets my support.
Some issues of mine: I hate hate hate being referred to as high functioning. It's patronising and essentially excludes us. It suggests we're okay for being able to function as what is regarded as normal which makes us almost as good as so called normal people (who is normal anyway and why would you want to be?)I have some things to offer from my unique perspective. I was genuinely apalled at some of the comments and protests by some of the organisations that say they support people with Autism...I don't know what's happening in the US re Autism research but here in Australia there's a general inclination towards encouraging inclusion and lobbying to ensure families have funding for access to ABA, AAC, and respite care etc. The search for a cure to Autism really disturbs me. I balk at the idea of being "cured" of being....MYSELF.I'm not compltetely locked inside myself like people who are higher up on the spectrum so I'm coming at it from there I can't speak for them. Certainly helping unlock severely Autistic people from their inner confinement is a good thing but trying to ensure Autism doesn't happen anymore is both unrealistic and unacceptable. We've just evolved a bit differently and our senses are primed differently and we connect to people differently, but with the right support our powers can be used for good. I know plenty of people who have benefitted from Temple Grandin's and other Autistic people's perspectives, And I'm told regularly that I inspire people to think outside the box...that's gotta be a good thing right? :-).
Rose S

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 2:33 PM

I happen to agree with your perspective. I've had several long talks with my daughter and she feels just about the same way.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:09 PM

@Two - Simon comes across as either agnostic (a believer in the scientific method) or as a follower of Confucianism. Doubt there's any Christian teaching in his background.
Mal - now there's a guy that's been steeped in Christianity, and he shows it a lot, even though he claims to hate God.
As for Simon's hesitance, that I think comes from his upper-class background (raised as an old school aristocratic gentleman) his precarious social position on the ship (imagine the fallout if he hooked up with Kaylee, and not to mention River was his primary concern, and Simon was very self-sacrificing and devoted when it came to her) his AWARENESS of his precarious position and how River's well-being hinged on it, and the fact that he comes from a completely different cultural background than the rest of the crew. Imagine someone from an old school aristocratic Chinese family being dumped in a public school in Detroit, and there you go. Considering all of that, Simon was pretty aware - he was picking up on the cues lobbed at him just fine, he just didn't know how to respond to what to him was unusual behavior, other than how he was taught. Also though you didn't see it all the time in the show, it was probably that Simon spent the overwhelming bulk of his waking hours tending to River - ever had to care for a mentally ill/disabled person? They require more attention than an infant sometimes. And can be much more dangerous to themselves and others , even without being psychic assassins. It's a huge stretch to call Simon autistic, or even on the spectrum, given all that and how he handled himself on the show.
He's a genius himself though, and that can also account for some of the awkwardness - people with IQ's 20pts (I think) or above those around them have a hard time integrating, and also tend to think more logically and analytically than others which also adds to that. Jubal picked up on that immediately with Simon, which is why he took the reasoning approach with him in the first place.

Boris can probably say more on this, but there is in all that still some commonality, or so I've heard, with Autistic/Asbergers kids - they often have high IQ's, but I'm referring more to I've read they get constant input from the environment around them, much more than your average person, which can be distracting to them and cause them to be stuck inside their own brain more so than other people. Boris, if ure still reading the thread, am I off on that?
But if that's the case then River would be the more likely common thread with autism, since she's getting overwhelmed with input all the time.
But Two, I totally got the same impression about River's parents and them being uneasy around her. Since Simon's a genius, and River makes him look like an "idiot child", River must be so far and above, IQ-wise I'm betting she had a hard time communicating at the same pace and level with anyone - Simon was probably the closest match to her. So her parents must have had a hard time connecting with her. You kind of see a hint of that in the flashback in "Safe", the way her father is so dismissive of her - kindly, but he gave off the impression of having already given up on her acting like a normal child at that point, was the impression I got. It must have been a huge relief to them to finally have found a "good place" for her, out of their hair but still respectable, and more of a shock when their otherwise sane, successful, and obedient son started freaking out over it.

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 6:57 PM

Simon might be Christian, I'd have to rewatch but this question came up with me before. When I looked at screen captures, it looks almost like Simon bows his head when Shepherd Book asked if they can have a prayer in the pilot.

Possibly he was just fitting in with Kaylee, who was friendly with him and who he might be able to tell even the captain has a soft spot for.

If Simon does believe, I agree that he doesn't seem very religious. It's kind of like many forms of Christianity have become somewhat secular. His belief in science and medicine (and love for his sister) likely takes precedence over practicing any kind of religion.

As for autism, hmm. I don't see that he has trouble understanding certain social cues, but rather a combination of trained over-politeness and fish-out-of-water. And he has no difficulty in correctly identifying his own emotions and others.

River is more likely to be autistic than Simon. Even seems suggested to be prior to PTSD and brain tampering.

I'd also say Mal and Jayne are also more likely candidates that Simon, except Mal has PTSD and both are the product of a cultural upbringing that leaves their emotional expression and recognition abilities stunted.

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:10 PM

hey featherbunnyman nice observation! yeah we are typically somewhat overwhelmed by outside distractions.The more overwhelming it is the more "locked in" we are. It's difficult to filter all the stimuli we take in and we often need extra explanantions to understand things that don't come across as scientifically sound or safe/ familiar in our brains (e.g. many societal rules and expectations, any new scenario, new experiences, sounds textures) it's all delegated to what I call the "fear sphere" until it's understood and stops being overwhelming. I'm 41 have had excellent support and have been working at it a while so I'm able to work through most things productively. This has helped in my work with ASD kids as I can break things down for them in chunks that are easier to cope with...and it's not an exclusive skill as I've sucessfully taught it to people who don't experience ASD and work in disabilities etc. Works well with kids who have a wide range of isms.On days when it's not completely taking over my brain I do appreciate that I see details others might ignore...makes life a little less mundane.

Rose S

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Sunday, October 10, 2010 7:41 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Simon might be Christian, I'd have to rewatch but this question came up with me before. When I looked at screen captures, it looks almost like Simon bows his head when Shepherd Book asked if they can have a prayer in the pilot.

Simon did bow his head (out of respect/politeness) and also showed support for Book praying over the bodies in Bushwhacked, and also protested the desecration of the Buddhist shrine in the comics - he's clearly RESPECTFUL of faith, and rituals/symbols. But I still don't see Simon as Christian. I see him as agnostic with respect for faith and ritual, and probably a background, as I said, in Confucianism as a philosophy, with some possible religious exposure to Buddhism and/or Shinto (his parents didn't strike me as being religious either, what little we saw of them...."show" religious maybe, like C&E Catholics.) If he had any religious instruction, him and River, it was probably through mentors/teachers or via a nanny/governess.

Boris - I'm so glad I got that right! It was a while ago, but I was watching some youtube vids made by "lower-functioning" autistics, one in particular where she was explaining why she made all the weird jerks and movements, her behavior, and frankly why she was so annoyed at people treating her so alien, like she couldn't understand what was being said around her when in reality she understood plenty just fine. She was "speaking" through what she typed b/c apparently typing was an easier way to communicate but she was very articulate and I personally was able to connect with what she said and found it fascinating - such a different way to experience life and the world around, but shades of similarity - there were things she was talking about and even random behaviors that resonated with me, which makes me think we all have these tenancies, but it's just a matter of degree, and as you said, some of us (not me) just have a much, MUCH more heightened awareness, if not additional senses all together. She was talking about sounds/textures, but even other things that maybe can't be explained in common vernacular...like "textures" or patterns/currents in even the air - not the words she used but that's how it translated to me b/c I've had "sensations" like that before...like there were so many more layers there, in everything.

I really need to find those vids again but they provided a lot of clarity and understanding. If I can track them down I'll post them. But I agree over all that autistic people need not be "cured" necessarily - why would you WANT to do that? I think it's better just to find a way to help them communicate and get by in the world, give them those tools, rather than change them all together. I feel like that would be a huge loss, to make them cease to exist, even out of good intentions. Sometimes we don't understand what we seek to destroy.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 1:39 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
@Two - Simon comes across as either agnostic (a believer in the scientific method) or as a follower of Confucianism. Doubt there's any Christian teaching in his background.
Mal - now there's a guy that's been steeped in Christianity, and he shows it a lot, even though he claims to hate God.

All good points about Simon, except that one about Simon being a follower of Confucianism or being a scientific agnostic.

With only his suspicion that River needs help, Simon breaks away from his parents, his friends, his hospital, his bank account. But cutting every goddamn social, financial, and family tie without Simon knowing what is up with River is the extreme opposite of Confucianism, where relationships are everything.

If Simon was a scientific agnostic, he would have a very public and loud confrontation with the Academy that is holding River. Simon could try the following before his Mission Impossible rescue of River: Call the parents of other students at the Academy. Sue the Academy where River is being held incommunicado. Contact Amnesty International & ACLU. Put an advertisement in the newspaper to shame the Academy. Get his friends to hold a protest rally. “Free River Tam! Free River Tam!” Call the TV networks. Make a big stink. If doing any of the above gets Simon jailed, then the Alliance is the Evil Empire or Nazi Germany, contrary to what Joss Whedon says.

Confucius say Joss Whedon made Simon irrational Christian so Firefly episodes easier to write. (If Simon's only enduring connection is River, then the rest of his life need not be in the script. Joss made Simon almost a zero.) When the holy spirit strikes, male Christians are famous for quitting jobs, getting divorced, abandoning parents & children, and escaping to another state to start all over again in secret in a new church. That is our Simon. And a guilty Christian/Jewish conscience is always good for a TV story. Simon would not be as entertaining if he's a neurosis free Buddhist.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 11, 2010 3:44 AM

Religion is about finding comfort and an anchor of belief and faith in a world that's uncertain and frightening. People with neuroses are drawn to religion, to strict rules and observation of traditions and structuring their lives around it, in a desperate attempt to create something calming and familiar, quite a bit more than religion creates neuroses.

Even Buddhists, though if you want to see a really good example of what I'm talking about, look at a born again Christian.

A number of people brought up religious don't become neurotic, although I'm willing to concede there's neurotic elements in religion. That, I think, was introduced and built on by people in religion who DID have neuroses, and being by all appearances the most fervent followers of the religion, other laid back believers kinda went with it in an "oh, that's cool" way.

I wonder if it's common to have a sort of state-sponsored secular Buddhist-Christian hybrid religion in the core worlds. While not core-world, I'm thinking about Nandi's funeral, it's very east-west fusion. That's a possibility for Simon; Nandi was originally from the core as well, but doesn't strike me as particularly religious either. Her girls, on the other hand... *shrug*

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Monday, October 11, 2010 4:31 AM

@Two - I honestly can't tell if you are being serious or not, since nothing you just wrote made the slightest bit of sense. Are you high?

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Monday, October 11, 2010 4:52 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by boris:
hey featherbunnyman nice observation! yeah we are typically somewhat overwhelmed by outside distractions.The more overwhelming it is the more "locked in" we are. It's difficult to filter all the stimuli we take in and we often need extra explanantions to understand things that don't come across as scientifically sound or safe/ familiar in our brains (e.g. many societal rules and expectations, any new scenario, new experiences, sounds textures) it's all delegated to what I call the "fear sphere" until it's understood and stops being overwhelming. I'm 41 have had excellent support and have been working at it a while so I'm able to work through most things productively. This has helped in my work with ASD kids as I can break things down for them in chunks that are easier to cope with...and it's not an exclusive skill as I've sucessfully taught it to people who don't experience ASD and work in disabilities etc. Works well with kids who have a wide range of isms.On days when it's not completely taking over my brain I do appreciate that I see details others might ignore...makes life a little less mundane.

Rose S

This is my experience with my daughter too. Break things down to manageable chunks and she's fine. And the overwhelming stimuli is true too. She hates wool, polyester clothes and prefers loose cotton or cotton blends.
She also can hear things that I can't. Many times she's been in a store and jumped. I'll ask her what's wrong and then I'll realize the store a/c has cycled on and I didn't even notice it.
And she can't stand crowds. They overwhelm her. I imagine it's like 50 million bees buzzing in her head. She's learned to control the resulting freak out and we have a signal that means "I gotta get out of here fast before I explode."
As for social clues etc. I have to keep my sarcasm to a minimum or clearly tell her that it is sarcasm because she takes everything so literally. As a child it led to a lot of bullying because the other kids knew they could get a reaction(mostly negative)from her. At age 21, she's much better but it's come with maturity and the help of a fantastic counselor.

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Monday, October 11, 2010 5:04 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
@Two - I honestly can't tell if you are being serious or not, since nothing you just wrote made the slightest bit of sense. Are you high?

So I'm senseless and high because you can't believe that Joss Whedon might have designed Simon as a Christian? (They are easy to write and easy for Americans to understand Christian motivations on TV) Per fearthebunnyman, the acceptable beliefs for Simon are Scientific Agnosticism and Confucianism. Those are some pretty exotic and cerebral religions for a North American audience. Why not suggest that Simon is a Zoroastrian? It's as unbelievable and explains just as little about why Simon is the way he is.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 11, 2010 5:27 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by two:
Quote:
Originally posted by fearthebunnyman:
@Two - I honestly can't tell if you are being serious or not, since nothing you just wrote made the slightest bit of sense. Are you high?
So I'm senseless and high because you can't believe that Joss Whedon might have designed Simon as a Christian? (They are easy to write and easy for Americans to understand Christian motivations on TV) Per fearthebunnyman, the acceptable beliefs for Simon are Scientific Agnosticism and Confucianism. Those are some pretty exotic and cerebral religions for a North American audience. Why not suggest that Simon is a Zoroastrian? It's as unbelievable and explains just as little about why Simon is the way he is.

No, Two, it was in regard to your remarks and generalizations about christians and agnostic scientists - which btw, the latter is not a religion, I was discussing what I would guess to be Simon's general way of looking at the world and sorting out problems - you just described in in your earlier post what an "agnostic scientist would do" - as if that's a particular religious belief and "adherents" would all do things a certain way. That makes absolutely no sense. "Scientific Agnosticism" is not a religion. So I don't know why you are acting like it is. I don't care if Joss made Simon a Christian, I am stating my theories of why I don't see it as the likely case. There's no "what's acceptable" at play here - it's called a sharing of opinions. So you've mis-characterized that too. Likewise, there's nothing particularly "exotic" about confucionism, or people that are athiests/agnostics, either, and it would make sense in the context of the show since we've already seen that the Core tends to be more "eastern" and the rim more "western". So I would tend to think people from the core have more exposure to what would traditionally be considered "eastern philosophies" and therefore people from the core would tend to come from those religions backgrounds - Confucianism, Buddhism, etc are actually the philosophical systems that even today have some of the most adherents in the world, largely from the East. Inara, for example, is Buddhist, and from the Core. Mal (and I think Jayne) come from Christian backgrounds (the Rim/Border planets).
You also implied that eastern religions are "too cerebral" for an audience that's only been exposed to Christianity, which makes me wonder what sort of christianity you've been exposed to, that you wouldn't characterize any of it as "cerebral". That hasn't been my experience.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:00 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

Very interesting thread. One of my best friends nieces might be autistic (they don't know yet) and I taught a moderately autistic child during student teaching. The child had no iep and I had no clue what to do for him, his mother opted to not have him in special education (which in this area I believe was the right thing to do, despite the extra difficulty it may have given some of us teachers).

I eventually discovered, sort of intuitively with a little trial and error, that if I could write the entire lesson's notes on the board ahead of time in as logical a progression as possible, the moderately autistic child would come in, copy them down, and basically have taught himself via my notes before class began, where he would go back to bouncing his chin on his hands. I also found he worked better when I gave gim extra space from the other students. If we had any support from the specialists, I would be worried they would get on to me concerning least restrictive environment type stuff, but he seemed more comfortable with the extra space. By the end of our 22 day rotation (not long enough for a general music class, but don't even get me started on THAT can of worms) he even raised his hand once or twice and contributed his own rhythms when we wrote some on the board. I like to think I helped, but I was honestly just playing by ear, it could have been any number of other factors that changed things for him.

As for Simon, I don't see autism, more shyness and culture shock. I think it's possible he's Christian, he certainly has respect for religion, but bear in mind, Christianity is very diverse and likely would have evolved over the centuries. Even today, it's important we take the historical context into consideration when interpreting the bible. Also the interpret part is really important. Why do you think Jesus taught with so many parables and analogies? Perhaps I am in the Christian minority, but I believe the bible was meant to be interpreted, explored, thought about and not blindly followed word for word without accounting for the change in culture, time and location. If you just take something as is out of context it even be very wrong.

Case and point, the sex thing. Back in the day (for whatever reason) those kind of rules only applied to women and also folks were typically married about as soon as they were physically capable of 'doing the deed.' Therefore, if they were having sex outside of marriage, they were probably committing adultery. Now we live longer, actually think about who we want to marry and be with, and I'm not entirely sure how important the no sex policy is anymore. Now we can have sex without making babies and we live long enough to wait a while and still get married and make lots of babies. If someone believes this makes me impious, they have every right to think so, but that doesn't make me any less confident in my faith.

I must admit, it does offend me that some people seem to believe you cannot be Christian and intellectual, or that faith is merely a security blanket for folks with some insecurity, but I don't let it bother me. Just because people say things you don't like or agree with, doesn't mean they are trying to be disrespectful. And if the world walked on eggshells in everyday speech, well, that would just suck.

Oh dear, I went and started a novel again... It happens when I talk about faith or music lol. Anyway, just cause he's stiff and awkward, doesn't mean he has to be Christian and just because he's a genius doesn't mean he can't be Christian. I do think if he were Christian, it would be a fairly private and personal thing (especially considering the captain). I suspect the only ones who would know would be River and possibly Kaylee or Inara if Simon and Inara had known each other in the past.

Edit: Goodness, that was really long... um just one more quick thought. If Simon was Christian, he could be struggling with faith and feeling like God abandoned him during the series (hmmm... kind of like our favorite captain).

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:02 AM

Quote:
"Scientific Agnosticism" is not a religion.

Hmm. I'm a scientific atheist, yet I'm not prepared to deny the possibility that it's a form of religion.

In any case, it's not more or less relevant than any other religion. All belief conflicts tend to be of the misunderstanding or temperamental persuasion.

I don't intend to be offensive when I say religion is a comfort thing. I think it is, but then I don't understand religion very well. I don't have all that much faith in my own, nor take much comfort from it. Others do.

The lack of positivity I feel from my belief system lends to a bias I have that tends to offend other people when I speak about religion. They all seem kind of silly to me. And divisive. Note that I am aware that my thinking something is silly does not mean it actually IS silly.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:05 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

FearTheBunnyman: How many North Americas who aren't Chinese know what Confucianism is? Not enough to support a TV show, even if you count Koreans and Japanese who do know. If Joss wrote down everything he knew about that religion, it would cover the paper in a fortune cookie. But Confucianism is the essence of Chinese! So what? Simon, by cutting all relationships with his hospital, his parents, his friends, is acting very Non-Confucianism.

And as far as Scientific Agnosticism, no scientists would go on a Mission Impossible rescue for their sisters until they tried more sedate methods. Simon went straight for the crazy, first thing: getting in contact with the "Underground", whatever they are. Maybe they are bomb-throwers. And he got himself arrested. Simon doesn't fit the Scientific Agnosticism profile, either.

Simon is a TV secular Christian as written by an Atheist, Joss Whedon.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:07 AM

MSA

Love the article...Thanks:)

To love someone is to see a miracle invisible to others.
--Francois Mauriac
It's fuzzy-minded liberal thinking like that that gets you eaten.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:15 AM

Now that two has explained himself more, I think he might be right. Believing something is right independent of whether honoured mother and father and the country think it is right, and acting on it, is a Christian mindset.

It's also a very good Christian mindset. I don't think two meant any offense when he claimed this.

And... His description of how a scientific atheist/agnostic would act is accurate, unless that person were particularly inclined towards paranoia as well. Simon's conclusion was not the most logical conclusion he might first jump to. It is, however, a conclusion *I* would jump to, being both paranoid AND a scientific atheist.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:29 AM

THEHAPPYTRADER

I'm mostly agreeing with ya byte, save that one comment on running from parents and starting a secret church thing(which may have been a joke I suppose). I don't see running from parents and starting over as being christian. However, running from parents, screwing up, crawling back home and having your whole family rejoice and feast on your safe return, not caring about your mistakes, is rather christian. I believe their was a parable as such.

Also, Simon seems too passive to form his own... anything. The only time he ever takes a stand is for River, and I suppose Kaylee if you count his response to Early's threats. This could change I suppose if Simon ever becomes more confident out in the black and on the rim, but with the exception of Ariel, Simon seems more like a follower than a leader.

EDIT: in case it wasn't obvious, the secret church bit came from two not byte.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 6:45 AM

The Joss Whedon script for Serenity, where Wash lives, is Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/folder/1uwh75oa407q8/Firefly

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Now that two has explained himself more, I think he might be right. Believing something is right independent of whether honoured mother and father and the country think it is right, and acting on it, is a Christian mindset. It's also a very good Christian mindset. I don't think two meant any offense when he claimed this.

Well written, Bytemite, and I believe that. But because you didn't use incendiary language, I never would have written what you wrote. Shamefully, I did mean to get an emotional reaction from FearTheBunnyMan. Proudly, I did not fail.

Getting back to the very first post in this thread: Ari Ne’eman, first autistic Presidential appointee, is a useful public servant. Everyone should read the article.

The Joss Whedon script for "Serenity", where Wash lives, is
Serenity-190pages.pdf at www.mediafire.com/two

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Monday, October 11, 2010 11:30 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Quote:
"Scientific Agnosticism" is not a religion.

Hmm. I'm a scientific atheist, yet I'm not prepared to deny the possibility that it's a form of religion.

Certainly individuals can be militant about their beliefs - ANY beliefs, but that does not make it a "religion" as such. A philosophy, perhaps, but there is a distinction, and one that people tend to forget.

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How many North Americas who aren't Chinese know what Confucianism is?

Plenty where I'm from.

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Not enough to support a TV show, even if you count Koreans and Japanese who do know. If Joss wrote down everything he knew about that religion, it would cover the paper in a fortune cookie.

So you're suggesting Joss is "dumbing down his show" for the audience? Does that sound like Joss to you?

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But Confucianism is the essence of Chinese! So what? Simon, by cutting all relationships with his hospital, his parents, his friends, is acting very Non-Confucianism.

No True Scotsman fallacy. Look it up.
additionally, I raised Confucianism as a suggestion for Simon's religious/philosophical background, (incidentally I suggested Buddhism as well - basically any common Eastern religion). That doesn't mean he's a regular practitioner as such. Just wanted to make sure we were clear on that.

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And as far as Scientific Agnosticism, no scientists would go on a Mission Impossible rescue for their sisters until they tried more sedate methods.

Again with the No True Scotsman fallacy.

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Simon went straight for the crazy, first thing: getting in contact with the "Underground", whatever they are. Maybe they are bomb-throwers.

That's a huge assumption. How do you know Simon didn't do his research, (recall he was searching for her, and for answers, for at least two years before he got her). I doubt finding the underground movement was even close to the first thing he did, but rather that he was seeking all avenues and slowly uncovered a vast government conspiracy. Going with outlaws was more likely the act of a desperate man who realized there were no other viable options.

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Simon is a TV secular Christian as written by an Atheist, Joss Whedon.

Perhaps, but I doubt it, for the reasons I've outlined.

@Bytemite:

Quote:
Believing something is right independent of whether honoured mother and father and the country think it is right, and acting on it, is a Christian mindset.

It is not, however, a mindset exclusive to Christians.

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And... His description of how a scientific atheist/agnostic would act is accurate, unless that person were particularly inclined towards paranoia as well.

See: No True Scotsman. Also, we're talking about a human being here (well, a character), not a robotic, pre-programmed construct.

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Simon's conclusion was not the most logical conclusion he might first jump to. It is, however, a conclusion *I* would jump to, being both paranoid AND a scientific atheist.

again, that conclusion is contingent upon an assumption which may well be an incorrect assumption - the idea that Simon "jumped to" his method of breaking out River right away, without investigating anything first. I just highly doubt that.

Quote:
Shamefully, I did mean to get an emotional reaction from FearTheBunnyMan. Proudly, I did not fail.

You did, actually - fail that is. I had no idea that's what you were trying to do, you just came across as a little unhinged and I was baffled. And now I'm even more baffled. I suppose that could be considered an emotion?

Back to the original thread topic, I located one of the autism vids I was thinking about, but there was another one I'm still trying to find. This once is "narrated" by an autistic fellow who's basically describing what it's like for him:

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Monday, October 11, 2010 12:16 PM

Actually, I know what the No True Scotsman Fallacy is. I don't recall saying that "Any scientific atheist/agnostic worth their salt would act like Simon did," I seem to recall saying that Simon acts in ways I have seen other scientific atheists/agnostics act, including myself.

The implication is: "His description of how an atheist/agnostic would act is accurate according to my observations." The suggestion is that I identify on some level with how he might act were I in his situation, and that the commonality might be shared belief in scientific agnostic/atheism.

Of course, this does not constrain other scientific atheists/agnostics, so more likely my inclusion of it was an irrelevant factor.

Quote:
again, that conclusion is contingent upon an assumption which may well be an incorrect assumption - the idea that Simon "jumped to" his method of breaking out River right away, without investigating anything first. I just highly doubt that.

This, however, might be true and I concede the point.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 12:23 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Bytemite:
Actually, I know what the No True Scotsman Fallacy is. I don't recall saying that "Any scientific atheist/agnostic worth their salt would act like Simon did," I seem to recall saying that Simon acts in ways I have seen other scientific atheists/agnostics act, including myself.

The implication is: "His description of how an atheist/agnostic would act is accurate according to my observations."

I see, I misread you then. And I don't see Simon as NOT being potentially scientific/agnostic, I think it's a pretty valid theory.

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Monday, October 11, 2010 1:08 PM

Erk crowds! discomfort factor+++++++..I'm aiming to go to a Dragon or Comic ocn in the next 5 years and am prepping myself for the inevitable accidental touching-unintentional-in-your-faceness-other-peoples-smells-and-voices...but mostly the touching...and the waiting. I'm going to try and go with people I know so they can buffer me from strangers. My signal for "I need to get outta here" is unsubtle, I just close my eyes and stand still...it pisses other people off but it makes them walk around rather than too close to me so I'm cool if people I don't know think I'm a freak. I always sit at the front of the bus or the class to minimise distractions...it took me about 4 months to get used to the whirring and buzzing of the aircon and sound systems in lecture theatres at university and over the years my classmates have learned to warn me before coming up behind or beside me and not to hug without warning. I actually get most sarcasm unless it's someone new and I don't know what their sense of humour is like. I am apparently pretty sarcastic which I think is funny as It took me so long to work it out in others. I also have a rep for being funny and I think that's because I actively studied what makes different people laugh. ASD kids spend alot of time obsessing about trains and Starwars etc from about 8 or so I used my "obsessive" skills to study human behaviour instead. I had a note book and went about it rather scientifically and even did social experiments to check reactions to various behavioural stimuli. I'm sure peeps didn't like it at the time but I've found it all very useful. I don't do eye contact. I do study peoples faces if I don't know them as I'm a wizz at reading facial expressions. My friends are used to me not looking at them when we talk.

Rose S

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Monday, October 11, 2010 1:31 PM

D*C=Wonderfulness! Also LOTS of Aspies go to D*C.
I've been with my daughter the last 3 years. Crowds are inevitable there and dear daughter almost had a meltdown in the registration line. Fortunately we got our badges just in time.
She prefers not to go to the dealers rooms (talk about crowded) and tends to hang out with the gamers.
We also stay at one of the hotels that are about a block away from the main ones so we both have a quiet space to retreat to when things get too hectic. Plus it's cheaper!
I have ti say that computers have been fantastic for her. Not only does it cure the awful handwriting (she has some trouble with very fine motor skills)she can contact friends all over the world and talk and game etc. The barrier of a computer allows her to come out of her shell and connect with other people.
BTW She's in community college for computer networking and is also a fledgling web designer.
I have to say she's gotten lots more support at the community college than in grade school. Her CC is small with small classes and the have allowed her to go at much of her own pace by taking just shy of a full load. She also has access to peer tutors and the most amazing private math tutor ever. He puts math in context for her and she has really learned a lot (unlike in the public school.)

http://fireflyfaninnc.livejournal.com/

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Monday, October 11, 2010 2:43 PM

The right kind of support is the key...not just for the kid but for the family as well. Despite having a torturously overwhelming childhood and adolescence I've always had good people around me. And very determined parents. They did their own version of ABA on me which I resisted and hated them for at the time but appreciate now (their version was a bit heavy on the punishment side whereas ABA uses a lot of praise/reward). We had family friends who were very patient with me and I had one or two good teachers. Temple Grandin often says good teachers are the most important thing for Autistic kids. High school sucked as I was at an all girls catholic school. At University both now and my first degree I pretty much approached teachers and told them what my learning issues are. I find being unprecious and up front about things works well. I don't tell people I'm Autistic unless it's relevant. I have Tourette's as well so I already stick out anyway.I'm not precious about the Tourette's either and find others tend to stop noticing it because of my attitude. My basic philosophy is we all belong, we should all be accepted and stay outta my way if you don't hold to that. Seems to work well for me...also helps blast some of the myths people believe about Autism e.g. Autistic people don't want to connect or make friends. Poppycock! Haven't met a single Autistic person severe or mild who didn't want friends and connections...we just go about it a bit differently. I'm sure there are ASD'ers who don't want friends just as there are other people who have the same sentiments. I've never been short of friends though I do have to actively remember to ensure they know I care about them and consider their needs...and occasionally let them hug me...and very occasionally initiate a hug.the kids at work have observed I'm more at ease patting them as I would a cat or a puppy than hugging. They don't seem to mind.
Rose S

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Thursday, October 14, 2010 3:42 PM