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Originally posted by G:
Use of cluster bombs by Russia:
http://www.rferl.org/content/syria-russia-hrw-using-cluster-munitions/
27440005.html
"Human Rights Watch (HRW) has accused both Moscow and Damascus of "extensive use" of banned cluster munitions in Syria.

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The estimated death toll from four days of protests in cities across Libya has risen to at least 233 according to information from hospital sources in Libya, Human Rights Watch said today.

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Syria: Government Likely Culprit in Chemical Attack
Available evidence strongly suggests that Syrian government forces were responsible for chemical weapons attacks on two Damascus suburbs on August 21, 2013. These attacks, which killed hundreds of civilians including many children, appeared to use a weapons-grade nerve agent, most likely Sarin.

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In his capacity as an HRW advocacy director, Malinowski contended in 2009 that “under limited circumstances” there was “a legitimate place” for CIA renditions — the illegal practice of kidnapping and transferring terrorism suspects around the planet.

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For example, HRW’s Washington advocacy director, Tom Malinowski, previously served as a special assistant to President Bill Clinton and as a speechwriter to Secretary of State Madeleine Albright.

In 2013, he left HRW after being nominated as Assistant Secretary of State for Democracy, Human Rights & Labor under John Kerry.

In her HRW.org biography, Board of Directors’ Vice Chair Susan Manilow describes herself as “a longtime friend to Bill Clinton” who is “highly involved” in his political party, and “has hosted dozens of events” for the Democratic National Committee.

Currently, HRW Americas’ advisory committee includes Myles Frechette, a former U.S.ambassador to Colombia, and Michael Shifter, one-time Latin America director for the U.S. government-financed National Endowment for Democracy.

Miguel Díaz, a Central Intelligence Agency analyst in the 1990s, sat on HRW Americas’ advisory committee from 2003-11. Now at the State Department, Díaz serves as “an interlocutor between the intelligence community and non-government experts.”

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A double-tap barrel bombing on Saturday 28 November on a Médecins Sans Frontières/Doctors Without Borders (MSF)-supported hospital in a besieged zone in northern Homs governorate, Syria, has caused seven deaths, the partial destruction of the hospital and an influx of 47 wounded patients needing to be transferred to nearby field hospitals, some of whom died en route.

At around 9:40am local time on Saturday 28 November, a barrel bomb was dropped from a helicopter on a populated area of Al Zafarana town, to the north east of Homs city in Syria, killing a man and a young girl, and wounding 16 people.

These patients were admitted to the Al Zafarana hospital in the mass casualty influx.

...

In total these bombings have killed seven and wounded 47 people. Half of the wounded – 23 out of 47 people - were children under 15-years-old and women.

“This bombing shows all the signs of a double-tap, where one area is bombed and then a second bombing hits the paramedic response teams or the nearest hospital providing care,” says Brice de le Vingne, Director of Operations for MSF.

“This double-tap tactic shows a level of calculated destruction that can scarcely be imagined.”

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A report released in May by Amnesty International on the use of barrel bombs in Aleppo concluded that they had killed 3,000 civilians and 35 fighters between January 2014 and March 2015. The weapons had killed more than 12,000 people throughout the country from their deployment in 2012 until the date of the report’s release.

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The predictable attacks on Amnesty and Human Rights Watch from Siggy, attacking the sources criticising Russia with 'evidence' from her pro-Russia blogs.

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Amnesty Publishes a Biased Report About Russia's Campaign in Syria

Alexander Mercouris Subscribe to Alexander Mercouris

Amnesty International has just released a report accusing the Russian authorities of “shamefully concealing” large numbers of civilian deaths caused by Russian air strikes in Syria. The report also says the Russians might be committing war crimes in Syria.

The Russians have responded to the report by saying it is littered with cliches.

Having read the report, I can say it provides no evidence a court could use.

As Amnesty says, its report was researched “remotely”.

That means there was no field work. No investigators visited the six places where Amnesty says the attacks by the Russians discussed in the report took place. The report is based entirely on reports of alleged eye witnesses and video evidence provided to Amnesty by third parties.

This in itself is worrying. Given that Syria is in a state of civil war with a long history of evidence being manipulated by both sides - especially by the rebels - in pursuit of their objectives, this is a fragile reed upon which to build a report like this. As it happens, detailed examination of the six incidents shows there is no conclusive evidence linking the Russians to any of them.

An attack on Talbisseh on 30th September 2015 is said to have been the result of “suspected Russian air strikes on Karama Street”. Use of certain munitions is attributed to the Russians because “Syrian government forces are not considered capable of delivering them” (“considered” by whom and what if that assumption is wrong?). An attack on Darat Izzah is attributed to a “suspected Russian sea-launched cruise missile”. Civilian deaths on Nuqeyr “purportedly involved cluster munitions”. An attack on Al-Ghantu involved “suspected Russian air strikes”. Two missiles that attacked Sermin were “fired by suspected Russian warplanes”.

Lastly, the report discusses an attack on Ariha without mentioning the Russians or providing any evidence they were involved at all.

Given the myriad number of air forces now operating in Syria, it is impossible to see how Amnesty can be sure that any of these incidents - if they even happened - involved the Russians... The entire report is in fact riddled with this sort of bad reasoning. Besides its repeated use of the word “suspected” (“suspected” by whom?) exposes it for what it actually is - a tissue of guesses and suppositions.

... The real concern must however be about the provenance of the information - such as it is - upon which the report is based.

When discussing the attack on Maasran the report says it arrived at its conclusions based on “images and reports sent to it by Syrian human rights activists and also documented by military and security organisations”.

... This begs the obvious question of who these “Syrian human rights activists” and “military and security organisations” are, and how much reliance can be placed on them? What criteria does Amnesty use to determine whether someone reporting out of Syria is a “human rights activist”?

The expression “human rights activist” implies someone whose primary concern is for human rights and who is therefore in some way detached from the political struggle.

Anyone who has followed the Syrian conflict with any care knows that no such people exist. Individuals and organisations who report about Syria claiming to be “human rights activists” - such as the Syrian Observatory of Human Rights - turn out invariably to be anti-Assad activists and members of the Syrian opposition. As such they cannot be assumed to be unbiased or impartial reporters of what is going on.

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....SIG

What I heard ... and it was an interesting perspective... is that the USA has gotten itself in the middle of a civil war between Sunnis and Shias. That until/ unless the two sects sort themselves out, there will be constant warfare between the two of them.

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You mean ... like ... the HRW site, which I quoted?

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They "reported" that the Qaddafi government was killing protesters when it wasn't...

...and thumped that the Assad government had conducted Sarin gas attacks on its own people, when it hadn't...

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Any proof it was Russians - aside from the guy simply asserting it?

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Would be nice to find where this information came from. Besides 'pbs'.

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But - nope, no source provided. As usual.

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And for sure the rebels never killed anyone.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2623121/Rebels-level-histo
ric-Aleppo-hotel-Syria.html

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO, your "# of civilians killed" figures are 50% crap.

There have been a documented 250,000 deaths by now in Syria. OF THOSE, more than half are fighting forces ... 125,000. OF THOSE, they are split roughly half-and-half between the Syrian Army and the "rebel" forces. Your sources are apparently claiming that the Syrian government ("regime") is responsible for all of the remaining civilian deaths?

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At least 654 medical workers were killed in attacks on hospitals.

The United Nations has accused the Syrian government of using attacks on hospitals as a “weapon of war.” Physicians for Human Rights documented nearly 300 attacks on hospitals through July, most of them carried out by pro-Assad forces in opposition-controlled areas.

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At least 565 civilians died from starvation, dehydration or lack of basic medical care.

The death toll, documented by the Syrian American Medical Society through January 2015, does not capture the many people — estimates range from 200,000 to more than 600,000 — who have been under siege for more than a year and are at risk of starving to death or dying from other preventable causes. The majority of those besieged are trapped by the Syrian government in the Damascus area, according to Valerie Szybala, the primary author of a report by the Syrian American Medical Society and executive directive of the Syria Institute, a new think tank.

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Originally posted by G:

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Originally posted by THGRRI:

What you two comrades are missing that the rest of us are witnessing, is Putin destroying Russia at a quicker pace than those he is fighting clandestinely in the Ukraine and openly in Syria.

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Oh the irony. That hadn't occurred to me - how very interesting T.
I suspect there is a small but growing group of true Russian patriots who do see what's happening, that have enough courage and connections outside of Russia to see beyond the state propaganda machine and are thinking of how to effect a change. It will be interesting to see if there are more open protests in Russia in the coming year.

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……SIG
Given that Russia is in Syria, defending the legally-recognized government against foreign takfiri-wahhabi-jihadists whose mantra is "covert of die", and saving the nation from the same fate as Libya, Iraq, and Afghanistan, and EVEN THEN all you can do is criticize and cavil, your response to the following thread would be particularly apropos;

*WHY I ABHOR RUSSIA*

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Blockade of Madaya

Difficult situation remains in the besieged city of Madaya near Damascus, which suddenly became famous thanks to the recent fakes from the opposition, which were then spread worldwide by the BBC and other 'advocates' of human rights.

Reporting about starving residents, they forgot to mention that the residents are starving due to 600 fighters of Ahrar ash-Sham, Jabhat al-Nusra and Free Syrian army entrenched in the city, who made the residents a bargaining chip in their negotiations with the government, hiding behind them as a human shield.

There is food in the city, but it is available only to those who have money, because the militants inflated the prices, including for "humanitarian aid".

The opposition also failed to mention about the recent demonstrations in the city, where residents demanded that the militants leave and allow the army to enter the city. They don't mention that yesterday the government gave the green light for delivery of UN humanitarian aid to the city

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The supposed ''pretty Syrian girl'' that is ''starving'' in Madaya is fake

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Reporting about starving residents, they forgot to mention that the residents are starving due to 600 fighters of Ahrar ash-Sham, Jabhat al-Nusra and Free Syrian army entrenched in the city... There is food in the city, but it is available only to those who have money, because the militants inflated the prices...

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They don't mention that yesterday the government gave the green light for delivery of UN humanitarian aid to the city

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NOW, as far as the FOOD SITUATION. The last delivered aid was in October. The next UN-scheduled aid was Dec 29 . The delivery was delayed, probably because the aid actually wound up in the hand of the jihadists, who will use that food to extract compliance AND MONEY from the populace.

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Civilians in Madaya confront militant blocking the road: "Don't you have children? Are you not Hungry? We are Hungry!"
https://www.reddit.com/r/syriancivilwar/comments/3znqu7/civilians_in_m
adaya_confront_militant_blocking/

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The rebels were offered to evacuate the town & move to Idlib multiple times, they refused, still refuse while civilians starve

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That is how the Syrian government is trying to resolve the problem: By separating the sheep from the goats

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Originally posted by SIGNYM:
KPO ... BLAH BLAH BLAH. UK government says this. UK government says that. More blah blah blah.

Oh, BTW- OF COURSE Russia is helping Hezbollah! Dood, that's why they call their coalition the four + one. It hasn't been a secret since September. DO try to keep up!

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KPO ... BLAH BLAH BLAH. UK government says this. UK government says that.

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Oh, BTW- OF COURSE Russia is helping Hezbollah! Dood, that's why they call their coalition the four + one.

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Sig, many of us are just as dismissive of what the Russian government says as you are of what the UK or US governments say. And many people are as interested in what the UK/US governments have to say as much as you are interested in what the Russian government has to say.

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Fighting alongside a terrorist group is one thing, giving heavy weapons to a terrorist group that they can use for future terrorist attacks on civilians, is another.

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Not that Putin cares much about civilian lives, as this thread shows.

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I read BOTH sides, and believe neither .

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The difference between you and me is that you read ONE side and believe it

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what western media has to say, you BELIEVE it, despite the fact that western media has lied to you over and over- and you've been fooled over and over.

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Did you not notice that? It's funny how it's "terrorism" when the "other side" does it, but becomes invisible when "your side" does it.

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its the western nations - US, UK, and France primarily; Saudi Arabia and Israel.

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Between us, we've managed to rack up over a million civilian dead since 2003

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Then, in October last year, Russian planes began to scour the skies.

Abdel Rahman was standing outside his family home in the tiny Syrian village of Marayan on a November afternoon when the Russian rocket hit, knocking him to the ground. He felt fine when he came to moments later, he said, and tried to get up. That’s when he realized both his legs had been blown off. “I looked up and my brother was screaming, but I lost consciousness,” he recalled.

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Zakaria Ibrahim, 26, an anesthetist at a gynecology clinic in Azaz, was working when a Russian missile struck within 10 meters of the facility, setting parts of it on fire. “Now the hospital is closed,” he said, as he waits for a lift home near the Turkish border after finishing a rotation.
“The idea is to weaken the civilians to make those living under the opposition areas feel life is hell,” he said. “By targeting bakeries, schools, and hospitals, you make people lose all hope.”

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Originally posted by kpo:

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I read BOTH sides, and believe neither .

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Right. That's why your worldview only lines up with Russian propaganda 99% of the time.

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The difference between you and me is that you read ONE side and believe it

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The difference between you and me is that you don't know the difference between free media and state propaganda that comes out of authoritarian regimes in places such as Russia, Syria, Iran, North Korea etc.

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what western media has to say, you BELIEVE it, despite the fact that western media has lied to you over and over- and you've been fooled over and over.

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Give specific examples of Western media lies that I've been fooled by. Please include:

1. Links to the media articles, and the specific 'lies' in question
2. Proof that the 'lies' are in fact lies.
3. Quotes of me that show that I have taken in the lies.

(By the way I could do this easily for YOU being fooled by Russian media lies)

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Did you not notice that? It's funny how it's "terrorism" when the "other side" does it, but becomes invisible when "your side" does it.

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False projection of exactly the kind of hypocrisy that you yourself are guilty of. There is no internationally agreed upon/legal definition of 'terrorism', but any definition that calls state actors 'terrorist' is an incredibly dumb one. Just my opinion. For example, how do you justify calling Saudi Arabia 'terrorist', but not Putin, or Assad? Your inability to answer this question (not the first time I've assked it) shows that it is you who has the half-baked and ultimately hypocritical definition of terrorism.

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its the western nations - US, UK, and France primarily; Saudi Arabia and Israel.

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Saudi Arabia is a Western nation...?

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Between us, we've managed to rack up over a million civilian dead since 2003

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I'm not really interested in your crude and highly biased accounting. Let me guess, Iraqi Shia and Iraqi Sunni militias killing people using AK-47s, you count in the "civilians killed by America" column?

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BuzzFeed is corporate media.

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As such it owes its continued existence... to its money sources, in this case venture capitalists and trending 'news' with attendant ads.

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The 'reporter' who wrote the story did NOT investigate the facts on the ground. He reported from Istanbul (in Turkey)

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BEIRUT — Aid agencies are warning of a worsening humanitarian crisis in northern Syria as sharply intensified Russian airstrikes paralyze aid supply routes, knock out bakeries and hospitals and kill and maim civilians in growing numbers.

Air attacks have escalated significantly since Turkey shot down a Russian warplane along the Turkey-Syria border on Nov. 24, the aid agencies say...

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Hospitals and health facilities also have been struck, reducing the availability of medical care for those injured in the bombings. According to the U.N. report, at least 20 medical facilities have been hit nationwide in Syria since Russia launched its air war on Sept. 30.

“This is an emerging humanitarian crisis. There is extreme suffering, and people are not being protected,” said Rae McGrath, country director for Turkey and North Syria for the American aid agency Mercy Corps, one of the largest providers of food aid in northern Syria. Since the Russian strikes began, the agency has been able to deliver only a fifth of the amount it normally provides, he said.

“We’re also seeing a huge increase in the number of civilian casualties. More and more people are being hurt because the intensity of bombing is greater,” he added. “It’s hard to imagine that the conditions in Syria could have become worse than they already were, but they have.”

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Though it is impossible to confirm that civilians are being deliberately targeted, aid workers say the attacks on civilian infrastructure appear frequent and systematic enough to suggest that they are.

A grain silo that supplied wheat to Idlib province, 10 bakeries that collectively catered to at least 200,000 people and several mills and warehouses that stored flour are among the targets that have been hit since Nov. 24, according to the U.N. report.

...

Among the medical facilities hit since the Russian intervention are 12 in northern Syria that are supported by Doctors Without Borders, said Pablo Marco, who is in charge of the agency’s programs in Syria and does not think the health centers were struck by accident.

“Of course it is impossible for us to have certainty, but the frequency with which bombs are falling in hospitals or very close to hospitals is enough to make it really seem that, yes, they are targeting hospitals,” he said.

The attacks cast doubt on the prospects for a peace process launched by world leaders at talks in Vienna last month, said Jan Egeland, secretary general of the Norwegian Refugee Council, one of the groups that has suspended its aid operations in northern Syria as a result of the attacks. He also warned of more misery ahead as winter descends.

“Civilians have been left with nowhere safe to flee. Schools, markets and bakeries are being bombed and women and children are under fire,” he said.

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The Government of Syria and allied forces have surrounded the area of Madaya and Bqine since July 2015. Since September 2015, these forces have imposed increasingly strict restrictions on humanitarian access, commercial traffic on freedom of movement for the civilians inside the enclave, under the control of several non-state armed groups since late 2012. Despite the existence of a local agreement since January 2015, the access restrictions imposed on Madaya have translated into a severe deterioration of the living conditions for the estimated 42,000 people trapped in Madaya and Bqine

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Civilian Infrastructure Hit and Humanitarian Aid Workers Killed in Northwestern Governorates

GoS and allied forces airstrikes reportedly impacted civilian infrastructure in northwestern governorates in Syria from 02 to 22 December. Most recently on 20 December, six airstrikes hit a public market in Idleb City killing more than 50 people and wounding approximately 150 people most of whom were evacuated to Turkey for treatment.

One NGO staff member and two civil defense workers were among those killed while a number of NGO staff were wounded in this attack prompting safety concerns for humanitarian staff working in Idleb City. The airstrikes also destroyed a school, a court building, and a collective shelter housing newly displaced IDPs.

Airstrikes hit a fuel market in Ma’aret al-Nassan in Idleb governorate frequented by civilians on 15 December, killing approximately 16 people and wounding over 50 people. Fuel prices have risen dramatically over the last month in areas held by Non-State Armed Groups (NSAGs) due to repeated attacks on fuel supply lines and infrastructure and the subsequent shortage of fuel. According to local sources, as of 21 December the price of diesel has risen from 250 Syrian Pounds to 375 Syrian Pounds in Idleb governorate since late November.

One NGO staff was killed by artillery fire in Khan al-Shaykhoun and a NGO supported hospital was partially damaged in Taftanaz due to a missile hitting in close proximity to the hospital on 13 December. This resulted in the main generator catching fire and causing subsequent damage. In another airstrike on 11 December, one bread distribution point was hit killing six civilians and wounding at least ten others. According to the Camp Coordination and Camp Management (CCCM) cluster, 2,538 individuals were displaced between 17 November and 18 December bringing the number of IDPs displaced from and within Idleb to 206,254 people as of 18 December.

In Lattakia, GoS and allied forces continued their airstrikes in Turkmen and Akrad mountains in northern Lattakia, an area with the presence of 14 NGO supported IDP settlements hosting 12,882 IDPs. Due to ongoing airstrikes and ground clashes between GoS and allied forces and NSAGs 11,245 people were displaced from 17 November to 18 December in Lattakia according to the CCCM cluster. Approximately 4,000 families living in IDP camps and settlements along the M4 highway near the Turkish border area of Yamadiya are living in close proximity to active frontlines. Protection fears for IDPs in these camps were raised considerably on 09 December after airstrikes and surface-to-surface missiles hit Obein IDP (refugee - KPO) camp in Lattakia, killing seven civilians and wounding many others.
In the southern countryside of Aleppo governorate, airstrikes hit two field hospitals in Khan al-Touman and Zarbah killing five people and wounding an unverified number of people on 09 December and 22 December, respectively.

A medical warehouse containing life-saving aid and medical items was severely damaged in Kafer Hamra town in Haritan sub-district of Aleppo on 07 December, after being hit by airstrikes that killed a number of civilians and wounded one NGO staff. The capacity of health infrastructure and the ability of health NGOs to respond to medical needs in the area have severely deteriorated.

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Does the UN have observers on the ground personally verifying these items?

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Is there an official repository of evidence?

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Otherwise, it's just gossip (or propaganda), wearing an official facade. Like a lot of things we're supposed to accept because some authority said so.

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