Paranormal experiences & Dreams by piratejenny

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
its starts off I'm walking and I'm barefoot and its so hot that the ground has cracks in it and I'm so thirsty and my mouth is dry and I'm tired

all of a sudden I look up and I see a huge pyramid and behind the pyramid is a huge sun I mean its really huge and its so bright I can't look at it.. then all of a sudden I'm inside the pyramid..I don't know how I got there..but its cool and dark inside and there is hay on the ground..I don't remember much after that..only there is someone there with me an old man and he's showing me these pictures of the landscape and our world and he telling me something only I can't remember what he said

Hmm. Dreams tend to be heavily symbolic, so. . .

The pyramid could mean various things: Historically, the pyramid represents divinity, typically of a sky-god (Ra, Zeus, Quetzalcoatl, Odin, Yahweh, whatever). In this case, the pyramid is a stairway to the god's realm, which makes it a place of enlightenment, a place where initiates go to interact with the god(s).

In the Freudian sense, the pyramid also represents the female womb (i.e., a place where things are born from --you can see how Freud got here from the "place of enlightenment" theme). This makes things interesting though, since the sky (realm of the gods) is typically seen as masculine --it's the Earth (that the pyramids are built from) that's feminine.

Most modern religions are based on "sky-god" mythologies, but they also recall an earlier earth-god religion that had to be marginalized/villified so the sky-god worshippers could gain legitimacy. The hallmark of the earth-goddess was serpent worship (the snake in Eden, the serpent-haired Medusa, modern-day "Reptilian" aliens [a whole 'nother topic, BTW]). In all these cases though, the serpent (and the represented religion) isn't just a Bad Guy; it represents knowledge. Eden's snake gave Eve the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge, Medusa would never have existed or died without Athena's direct interference, etc.

(Don't even get me started on all the motifs and collective unconscious psycho-social "memories" that Stargate taps into. Makes my head spin.)

See where I'm coming back to?

The pyramid is a place of Knowledge, of the Forbidden/Forgotten variety. You went inside (inside the womb, to prepare for a rebirth), where you met a Teacher, who taught you something, something about the world you live in, something that I can only assume is Important. . .

I think you'll have that dream again at some point, but this time you'll remember what he was telling you. If you're lucky, it won't leave you all mind-blown and River-like.

Wait, there's more.

Pop culture, spurred by the iconic pyramids of Egypt, have added another layer of symbolism: the pyramid as time-capsule. In this sense, the pyramid can represent time, either the ancient past (built by ancestors that we don't remember) or the distant future (where the pyramids are all that remain of long-vanished glory and long-forgotten mystery).

Crunching numbers and thinking of time, I have to ask: how old are you? There's a pattern here
6 (first dream),
7, 8 (second dream, after two years),
9, 10, 11 (third dream, after three years),
13, 14, 15, 16 would be the next logical interval, then 21, then 27. . .

The blinding huge sun of your dream might just be dream-logic exaggeration (you think pyramid => desert => unbearably hot sun), but there might be something there. We now know that our sun is aging. Eventually, it'll expand, burning the land and boiling the sea (so to speak

). Could be your mind added that image "intentionally" (as much as your subconscious can have intentions).

When you enter the pyramid, you're walking on hay, which, lest we forget, is the remains of once-living things, turned dead and dry. The Teacher is an old man --almost certainly the pyramid's sky-god, come to impart wisdom. "Old" can mean wise, but it can also mean "near-death."

The far future, then, and your world is destroyed. Dead and dying. Earth-That-Was has been used up, and the old god-man is all that's left.

Could be that the old man is telling you to leave something behind --to remember something from your (or our) past, and deliver it into the future so that it will not be forgotten. Could be Ghoul's right, and you are a special case, maybe predestined to open all our eyes, and the old man's trying to give you your mission.

Maybe my destiny is to be here, saying this, and giving that one little push to look closer. . .

Or maybe it's all bull, dreams are just flights of fancy, and pyramids are just fancy sepulchres.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, November 26, 2004 8:35 PM

DARKJESTER

Thanks for sharing, piratejenny. It can be difficult and a bit frightening opening up like this, letting people know what is going on in your head. But since you've asked, I'll open up a bit too.

As far as recurring dreams, one I have at least 3 or 4 times a year is that in various situations, I'm given a book to read. If I pretend to read it, everything is fine. But once I try to make out what is actually written, the words dissolve into unreadable symbols, and the letters squirm like snakes.

As far as the paranormal, there have been a few things in my life. From a very young age I've had strong bouts of deja-vu (getting less frequent with age). The longest lasted almost 15 seconds, and I could even tell you where and when I had the dream when I first "saw" what would happen. And what is REALLY interesting is that my 11-year-old son asked me about "dreaming things before they happen" earlier this year. Is there a genetic link? I don't know.

There have also been a few occasions when I simply knew that something out of the ordinary was going to happen, but I had no idea of what. The day my grandmother died (of old age, in her 70s) I was in 3rd grade, I woke up and told my mother that something special was going to happen - I just knew it. And one winter evening when I was 15, I was alone in my other grandparents' house (next door to my house) with my electric guitar cranked (they were in Arizona for the winter) when suddenly it got VERY creepy being all alone. I stopped playing, listened, looked around, and no-one was there. About 30 seconds had elapsed when I picked my guitar back up and fingered a chord, but before I could play it the gorram lights went out!!!! Scared the hell out of me!! Grandpa had the lights on a timer.

In college, I had a friend explain to me how to use "retinal overload" to see things you can't normally see. Like when you stare at something so long that all the colors seem to change, especially in low light and your eyes are tired. And later on that year I spent a FASCINATING evening talking with a girl from a different floor of my dorm. I would "look" at her, using the retinal overload trick, and (for example) once I could "see" her hair moving on its own. She told me that for her entire life, as long as she could remember, she had been hearing voices, and had a guardian spirit she could actually feel touching her (he was playing with her hair when I noticed, she said). Sometimes she would ask me to "look" in a corner and tell her if I could see anything (several times I saw hazy figures) and if I noticed a figure somewhere else, I'd ask her if she heard anything, and she could point in the rough direction of a voice she was hearing (it almost always lined up with what I had seen).
I haven't tried any of this in many years - a few times, I saw things that really freaked me out, including a classic ghost-type figure, hooded robe and all, that turned towards me and pointed right at me as soon as I overloaded my eyes and "saw" it.

Lastly, I've occasionally been able to feel other people's emotional states. Once again, back in college, I had a female friend I was VERY close to since high school. She'd complain about her boyfriends, or about not having one, I'd complain about not having a girlfriend, we'd give each other backrubs, and generally hang out. One night she had a date, and I was playing poker with the guys, and suddenly I felt a shiver run down my spine and I got REALLY horny for a few seconds. I noted the time (9:30) and kept playing. Then, about an hour later, I had another very stong feeling, almost like exhaling after holding your breath for a long time.
The next evening, I asked her about her date, and we compared notes and matched up times. The first rush I felt happened about the time they were going down to the basement of his parent's house for what she was hoping would be a pretty intense make-out session (we were all 18, and freshmen at a Christian college, folks, so only R-rated!) And the second feeling was about the time she realized how far things had gotten and decided it was time to back things off.
There ware several other similar things on similar occasions, and something I could COUNT on was feeling nauseous if a girl I was interested in was making out with someone else, whether I knew about it or not.

All of this tended to lessen in intesity as I got older, and from what I can tell from the timing, prescription anti-depressants definitely interefere with these types of perceptions. And now that I've hit 40, I don't even think about it much.
Can I prove any of this? Not a chance. It is ALL subjective, even to the subject experiencing such things. But there are schools of martial arts that train you to feel a coming punch without seeing it, and that is just as subjective. And just as real to the one experiencing it.

MAL "You only gotta scare him."
JAYNE "Pain is scary..."

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Saturday, November 27, 2004 12:37 PM

thanks everyone for sharing, I've always wondered why people don't talk about these things more like in everyday discussions, I agree with the person who said some of these things aren't all that uncommon ..I think its just that we don't give a voice to them... and you really have to wonder why..maybe it could have something to do with being a child..when these things happen..and not really being able to articulate them and the more I think about it..I have to say at the time these things happened to me..it didn't occur to me to think of them as unsual..I mean seeing those pin points of lights everynight..just seemed normal to me... and too the intensity of the memory starts to fade..and you sometimes wonder about what happened.

I love the dream analysis, its funny because I've wondered about that dream all my life since it happens..but I've never sought out any type of meaning

I've heard of remote viewing and I've always been curious about that, I don't know much about how it works..but I think it has something to do with instincts

and I do think that all of us experience clairvoyancy at some point or another I do think its something that comes out in all of us at various times..its so interesting to know that we all have the ablity to see the past and the future..only we don't know how to access that part of us on a regular basis..I guess there is a reason for it!!

and to Darkjester some of your experiences seem fascinating to say the least.

espeically the retinol overload thing..and being able to see the hazy figures..

i do believe that there are so many things going in that we can't normally see that are going on thats in our world but thats outside of are world at the same time does that make any sense..maybe things that can be picked up or seen on another frequency if only we can tune ourselves into that freguency.

speaking of feeling and being able to tune into someone elses feelings...my older sister always mentions this to me.. ( I have no recollection of this)but when I was about five I was up and my sister said I was staring at her, which she said was just weird and gave her the creeps..but as soon as she opened her eyes I said your going to be sick...later that day she was sick..she was sent home from school because she had puked all over herself)

I had actually forgot to mention this one dream I had..because well its really gross.. and it really wasn't a dream...after all it really happened but it was just the weidest thing. I was also five or six when this happened

I had dreamed that there was a mouse in my bed, only I don't remember all of the dream ..I'm scared of mice but as soon as I woke up without hesitation I pulled back the covers and there was the mouse dead

but you know what was so weird about it
the mouse was as flat as a pancake..as flat as a sheet of paper but everything was in tact..the eyes eveything there was no blood no guts not anything messed up on that mouse it was just flat

I ran like lighting speed into my mom's room and told her..I was scared to tell her..but I wasn't going back to that bed

My mom came in saw it, she never mentioned it she just got a dust pan and a broom and got rid of it, I never spoke about that mouse..

but it really creeped me out I guess I rolled over it..but I still don't understand how it got to be flat without there being any blood..even as a child I wondered about that.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 9:48 AM

I have had similar experiences, all of which in my opinion have a direct link with the paranormal.

As a child I made the mistake of telling folks, I thought I could trust, my experiences. They were deemed strange enough that I was dubbed with the name "Demonboy" in grade school, because one of my schoolmate's parents was a psychologist I was taken to see, and she told her son. Since then I've only shared my stories with a scant few. However, since this is the internet and I am unlikely to suffer undue pressures hehe:

I've seen ghosts..some benign and some very malignant. I've experienced poltergeistic activity. I had a recurring dream as a child..many times it we reoccur weeks at a time.

I always dreamt that I was much older and was walking by my grandfather's home with a bunch of friends (none of whom I knew at the time, I just felt they were friends), when I heard a baby's cry come from the house. I ran inside and up the stairs in complete darkness. I remember that I was completely unafraid. I enetered the room from which the cry had come and saw a woman sitting on a bed crying. I saw a small infant standing in its crib crying. That was when I heard a low guttural laughter behind me. I turned and saw only a dark mist with no physical shape to say of. I remember it came at me and I pummeled it. I slowly turned it so it was in front of me and I grabbed it and pushed it out of an open window in the room. It was then, that the most chilling part of the dream occurred. At first there was only silence. During the fight, I had suffered no injuries and felt confident that the matter was over. It was at this point that I looked out the window and there was nothing. That was when I heard the laughter again behind me. I remember the feeling of utter fear and cold. I turned to face the laughter and the thing bit me.

I woke up, with the smell of charred flesh lingering in the air and a pork chop taste in my mouth. I had this dream approximately 40 times when I was about 11. The psychologist determined I was Super Hyperactive and I had to spend 4 years as a zombie under the effects of Riddlin.

Another situation occurred when I moved into an old old house when I was 19 with some friends. There were six of us who witnessed things flying across the room during dinner. Glasses slid across the dinner table and dumped into 2 of my friend's laps followed by the doorknobs and doors shaking and moving. The empty cans flew off the stove we had cooked dinner on. I stayed in the apartment after they had moved out, because I didn't feel threatened per se. They on the other hand lost it. Things were ok for awhile and it was nice to live alone again. That is until I was rendered immobile several times and experienced severe pain (no markings however) and heard many voices in conversation and laughter. I asked a friend, who knew a medium to come over on a weekend and bring her with him. She brought a couple of people with her. They claimed I was a "sensitive" and quite possibly was channeling a wake that had occurred in the apartment many years ago. Needless to say..I thought I was being possessed and moved the hell out LOL.

I have seen a child ghost. I was about 22 in another apartment I had lived in. She actually came out of my bathroom and walked to the door of my bedroom, turned around and walked into a back closet near the bathroom. I asked the old man who owned the place if there had been a room back there. He said that the house used to be an old farmhouse and there had been rooms on the back of the house in the early 30's. They removed them to make a larger back yard after all the farmland was sold. The weirdest part of the experience was that I felt totally calm and unafraid. She never gave me a feeling of discontent.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 10:19 PM

I'd classify ghosts and hauntings in three different ways.

1) Replayers; An event has taken place in a specific place that left an imprint, like a photographic negative, the event replays itself from time to time when the conditions are right.

2) Revenants; Some has died in a place either violently or with unfinished business pressing upon them. They cannot move on unless this issue is resolved or their murder is solved.

3) Residents; Some people just loved the place they are living in so much that they refuse to move on. They feel a strong attachment to the house and may resent the people who live there now.

Like anybody else these spirits can be good, bad or indifferent. I believe there are also non-human spirits. Animals certainly, especially those domesticated by man and with strong attachments. But also, for lack of a better term, devilish or demonic spirits. These are malicious and can cause great harm.

I've had lots of weird experiences and I don't automatically lump anything that happens into activity of the spirit world, but just into an event awaiting explanation. Sometimes there is a logical, scientific explanation, sometimes there isn't. That could be because our science isn't advanced or open-minded enough or it could be because the event isn't explainable in the rules of this world.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Monday, November 29, 2004 11:42 PM

there are two things I would like to talk about, one of them maybe a little off topic but 1rst I'll start with Connorflynn

I think it was just ridiculous and ignorant that you were labeled Demon boy all because of some strange reocurring dreams that you had, I don't understand why people are so quick to try to villify something they don't understand..it makes you wonder how far we've come since the dark ages..

Again alot of these experiences I don't really think are that uncommon its just that people don't talk about them and its understandable why!!!( I look at what happened to you)..how many other kids are being medicated or labeled hyperactive because of such experiences..I do think children inparticular are alot more sensative and aware of other-worldly things..I think we grow out of it as we get older and are more solidly grounded in the material world where we rely heavily on our five senses..to mold our perceptions of whats real..

Its really to bad that we don't all talk about these things more..I think it would help us and move us further along as a speices..its really sad that you told people you thought you could trust and ended up in a bad spot because of it...

Your dream is really frightening.., it could very well be that it was really happening to you in some way maybe in some other realm...it seemed to fully engage your senses..maybe the person who analylized my dream could do the same for you..maybe it would help..since you had it so often..there is probably something to it.

The old house..sounds as if it had some poltergeist ....or were you or any of your friends playing with a quija board..there are somethings that can open a door to unseen things good and bad, I personally haven't any experience with such things but I heard about it and I believe it.

you seem to have no problem seeing ghost..you must be sensative to such things..

the other thing I thought was interesting was this

Quote:
In all these cases though, the serpent (and the represented religion) isn't just a Bad Guy; it represents knowledge. Eden's snake gave Eve the Forbidden Fruit of Knowledge,

why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)

Now I'm not religious but I've studied up on a variety of diffrent religions to have an understanding of them..

the power that and hold that religion has over people has always fascinated me

Reading up on Lucifer..he is considered the Light Bearer..the Enlighten One the bringer of light and knowlege..he is the snake we still see his symbol used in various forms even to this day, like the medical symbol of two snakes entwined

It seems to me that Lucifer is really the good guy, if not good then certainly not bad or evil as he is labeled

I still don't understand why he was villified, ..why is having knowelge such a bad thing

if anyone would like to discuss this feel free , I've I think its interesting to say the least

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:03 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

how many other kids are being medicated or labeled hyperactive because of such experiences..I do think children inparticular are alot more sensative and aware of other-worldly things..I think we grow out of it as we get older and are more solidly grounded in the material world where we rely heavily on our five senses..to mold our perceptions of whats real..

Well..hehe..it was the 70's. The years of the Riddlin craze LOL. Over 3/4 of my class was on it. When I was in highschool, I used to claim it was mind control methodology LOL.

Quote:

The old house..sounds as if it had some poltergeist ....or were you or any of your friends playing with a quija board..there are somethings that can open a door to unseen things good and bad, I personally haven't any experience with such things but I heard about it and I believe it.

I have never used a Ouija board. Nor did my roommates. They were devout Jehovah's Witnesses. After my experiences there, I would never consider attempting to use one, for fear of possession or other adverse consequences. I'm a firm believer in the after-life in whatever form it takes. I have yet to meet anyone who I felt had a grasp on handling any potential issues that would arise from using an unprotected device.

Quote:
you seem to have no problem seeing ghost..you must be sensative to such things..

It's a possibility I've considered. I almost joined a paranormal group, to make some sense of things. The only hitch to that was the fact that most of the folks were complete charlatans and made it all seem like a big waste of time.

Quote:
why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)

Now I'm not religious but I've studied up on a variety of diffrent religions to have an understanding of them..

the power that and hold that religion has over people has always fascinated me

Reading up on Lucifer..he is considered the Light Bearer..the Enlighten One the bringer of light and knowlege..he is the snake we still see his symbol used in various forms even to this day, like the medical symbol of two snakes entwined

It seems to me that Lucifer is really the good guy, if not good then certainly not bad or evil as he is labeled

I still don't understand why he was villified, ..why is having knowelge such a bad thing

if anyone would like to discuss this feel free , I've I think its interesting to say the least

From Wikipedia:
In Christianity, Lucifer has become synonymous with Satan, nevertheless. From the Christian viewpoint, Lucifer was second in command to God himself, he was the highest archangel in heaven, but he was motivated by pride and greed to rebel against God and was cast out of heaven with the angels who followed his lead. Then he became the Devil and his followers were known as demons.

Then there is Satan LOL: Another interesting piece -
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satan

In Pagan belief..the Snake symbolizes "The Goddess". In Unitarian Churches, I have seen sunday school books portray the story of Adam and Eve in a different light, showing the snake as being not so much a tempter as a bringer of knowledge.

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
I'd classify ghosts and hauntings in three different ways.

1) Replayers; An event has taken place in a specific place that left an imprint, like a photographic negative, the event replays itself from time to time when the conditions are right.

2) Revenants; Some has died in a place either violently or with unfinished business pressing upon them. They cannot move on unless this issue is resolved or their murder is solved.

3) Residents; Some people just loved the place they are living in so much that they refuse to move on. They feel a strong attachment to the house and may resent the people who live there now.

Like anybody else these spirits can be good, bad or indifferent. I believe there are also non-human spirits. Animals certainly, especially those domesticated by man and with strong attachments. But also, for lack of a better term, devilish or demonic spirits. These are malicious and can cause great harm.

I've had lots of weird experiences and I don't automatically lump anything that happens into activity of the spirit world, but just into an event awaiting explanation. Sometimes there is a logical, scientific explanation, sometimes there isn't. That could be because our science isn't advanced or open-minded enough or it could be because the event isn't explainable in the rules of this world.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

I think you hit the nail on the head, Hardware. I am NOT a superstitious person, but I do believe in the supernatural. I am also a firm believer in Psychological energies put forth by humans that can create paranormal energies, both good and bad. When I was confirmed as a Catholic in 1984, The energy that was moving about the church was incredible. When the Bishop walked down the aisle to perform the ceremony, there was a surge of power (if you will, not really sure how to describe it) that followed him and swirled about the church. The feeling was so strong, I remember feeling afraid, and humbled all at the same time, enough so that I actually forgot why I was there. My mother claimed it was the holy spirit, I was convinced it was created by the folks who were there. Now even back then I was never a "devout" Roman Catholic, I was going through the steps for my parents LOL. However after the experience I would have to say, there is definitely something that occurs when you have so many people together who believe strongly in something. There is much that we still have to learn about the capacities and powers of the human mind and psyche.

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 6:48 AM

DIETCOKE

This is really an intersting thread. I really enjoy reading everyone's stories. Thank you.

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 7:48 AM

I'll agree on the Ouija Boards = Badness thing. Ouija Boards are the spiritual equivalent of opening all the door and windows of your house and yelling "PARTY!!! FREE BEER!!!" You have no control or awareness of who (or what) is gonna show up and what they're gonna take it into their hypothetical heads to do.

This is why shamans and mages rely on ritual; it makes sure that the thing/person you're invoking is the one that actually shows up.

Main rule of Summoning: Never summon up anything that you cannot put down. Applicable in so many other things besides.

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
Your dream is really frightening.., it could very well be that it was really happening to you in some way maybe in some other realm...it seemed to fully engage your senses..maybe the person who analylized my dream could do the same for you..maybe it would help..since you had it so often..there is probably something to it.

No promises, but I can try.

My first guess is that this dream is a warning.

You hear someone in need of help and rush to help them (a good move), you encounter a threat that you don't understand and do what you can to counter it (another good move). It's only then that something goes wrong. Could be the dream is warning you that your attempts to help/do good are backfiring --like you have the will, but you lack the training/experience to use it wisely. Or maybe it's your confidence that the dream is warning you against --it was only when you think the matter's over (and, I'd guess, let your guard down) that the thing attacks you.

The scent and taste upon waking are curious. They could be psychosomatic --especially the smell; scent is the most easily-fooled of human senses. What intrigues me is that the burning smell doesn't correspond to anything in the dream. Unless the "dark mass" actually represents a fire, and you're rushing into the building to rescue the mother and child from the flames. . .

The taste is more telling; you say the black mass bites you, then you wake up tasting meat.

Could be the dream is a warning --that you yourself are a danger to someone you care about. Probably family, both given that they're in your grandfather's house, and that the "woman" ("mother?") and "child" images seem to imply two-thirds of a family.

Your friends in the dream, have you met any of them yet? Did you recognize the woman and child?

Quote:

why is it that the snake is considered evil...or the bad guy..he gave Eve the apple which is a symbol for knowlege..( why is knowlege considered a bad thing..is being ingnorant and stupid good)

It's not so much that knowledge itself is bad, but that knowledge that doesn't come from "Us" is bad. Remember that the Bible, like all history (yes, especially the parts that didn't happen) is written by the victors. The serpent-worshippers were the guys who lost.

In the case of Adam & Eve, the knowledge that the snake offers leads the humans to defy God, which is a Very Bad Thing(tm). The allegory is that knowledge leads to hubris, to thinking that you know better than God (or the gods, or the dully authorized representatives thereof).

Most religions can only function by maintaining a monopoly on "Truth." If Christianity says you can only reach Heaven one way, and someone else comes along with another way, well, then, one of them must be wrong (and therefore must be Converted and/or Killed). See the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Witch Trials, Chronicles of Riddick, etc.

Judeo-Christianity in particular teaches that All Truth comes from God and only from God. Likewise, all Goodness comes from God. Anyone who disagrees can only possibly be Evil, and any "truth" that contradicts what God has "said" (via those dully authorized representatives) must be heresy. And we burn heretics. Or cancel their TV shows, whatever.

The key thing to remember about organized religions is that they're organized. Which means that what God says sometimes has to take a back seat to what the Church says. God might say "Love thy neighbour," but the Church says "Obey your betters because we know what God wants better than you do." The Pope is the head of the Church, who supposedly knows God better than anyone. The Cardinals obey the Pope, the Arch-Bishops obey the Cardinals, the Bishops obey the Arch-Bishops, the Priests obey the Bishops, and the common folk obey the Priests. Anyone who claims to have more Knowledge than their superiors is a threat to the Establishment.

Therefore, they must be discredited, suppressed, and possibly killed to silence them.

This is why Satan is called the Prince of Lies --the Knowledge he offers is all false, either through intentional malice or ignorance & stupidity (both signs of Evil, because the Good Guys are always right

). Yet you'll note that at no point is Satan actually shown to lie. . .

In the particular case of the snake cult, the suppression was so total and merciless and seemingly complete, that we don't know anything about them --most "respectable" scholars don't even like to consider that they even existed.

When I said that sky-god religions recalled "an" earlier religion, I meant it. It looks like all of these religions, including some in the Americas and Asia, were the same serpent worshipping religion. According to "conventional" knowledge, that's just not possible, because it requires a planet-spanning civilization at least 1400 years BC, which is "impossible." It would also require the following civilizations (our "ancestors") to have been less advanced.

Others have speculated that this snake cult might've been the official religion of Atlantis.

In any case, the knowledge that this religion represented was considered so powerful that it crossed the line from just heretical to outright Dangerous.

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:18 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Your friends in the dream, have you met any of them yet? Did you recognize the woman and child?

I never actually saw the faces of the people I was with. I just knew they were friends, though they didn't enter the house. As for the woman and child..the same situation. This dream occurred nightly for several weeks, to the point I didn't wish to go to sleep. I also didn't eat much in the way of meat after they stopped, for quite awhile.

I never found out what brought the dreams on or why they stopped.

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 10:46 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just a quick comment, then back to work for me!
When I was about 16 I dreamt that I and a man were stranded on a half-sunken raft in the middle of a fetid creek. (I know, it was a creek, why didn't I just get up and wade or swim to the shore? All I can say it, it was a dream!) We had been there for a long time and I was in a fever-like state, I knew that if we weren't rescued soon we would die. And there were some black clam-like parasites growing in my skin at the back of my knee...

After I got up that day, I read a story in the newpapers about a couple who had been rescued from the Great Barrier Reef after two weeks or so on a raft that they had cobbled together from the flotsam of their exploded yacht. Their raft, such as it was, was waterlogged and sinking, and the woman has some snail-like parasites growing in her leg...

Boy, now THAT made me sit up and take notice!

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:10 PM

Quote:
Remember that the Bible, like all history (yes, especially the parts that didn't happen) is written by the victors. The serpent-worshippers were the guys who lost.

Its too bad they lost we might have been better off if they had won. Its Ironic..but perhaps its Lucifer and the Serpent -Worshippers..that were really the good guys in this case

Maybe for anwers we should look towards them and see what truths we can find

in the words of Captain Mal Reynold's "may have been the loosing side..but I'm not convinced it was the wrong side"

Quote:
In the case of Adam & Eve, the knowledge that the snake offers leads the humans to defy God, which is a Very Bad Thing(tm). The allegory is that knowledge leads to hubris, to thinking that you know better than God (or the gods, or the dully authorized representatives thereof).

Judeo-Christianity in particular teaches that All Truth comes from God and only from God. Likewise, all Goodness comes from God. Anyone who disagrees can only possibly be Evil, and any "truth" that contradicts what God has "said" (via those dully authorized representatives) must be heresy. And we burn heretics. Or cancel their TV shows, whatever.

I know that the judeo Christian bible is mostly allegory..and that most of the stories were taken from much more older ancient coherent sources and was condensed and also changed..thats why the bible is such a hodge podge of contradictions..and alot of it just doesn't make any sense

what I don't get is how people can think that goodness comes from God when God the Judeo Christian version of God is not good....this is my opinion but he seems like a blood thirsty warmongering ego maniac...even if no one agrees with my opinion of this God..I still don't see how he can be classified as good....just based on the writtings in the bible alone., it seems farfetched that it should be thought of as good people seemed to fear him..more then respect him ...how anyone can come to the conclusion that God is good baffles me.

which I guess brings me back to my original thought..Its insane that Religion has such power and hold on people ..I mean if you take the story of Adam and Eve alone...and see the disservice that was done to them to the human race..its obvious that the God/Gods were afraid of humans getting knowlege because then they would not be able to subject them to their will Knowlege is power..Ignorance is a slave

Basically what the story of Adam and Eve is telling us..is to stay ingnorant..stay stupid and be subjected..be a slave..and if you look at what most religions have done to people its worked..

(when I say slave I wonder what comes to peoples mind)

I'm not saying that religions don't have some good things about them..most do but I think the bad outweighs the good

Religion is such a racket..and its powerful espeically when used as a tool as it so often is, I wish we could do away with it and start fresh and clean

it amazes me that we humans are always looking outside of ourselves for our salvation..we look to God/Gods..when really our only salvation is inside of us..we need to take respossiblity and realize that we have control..that our fate is in our own hands and not outside of us, only we can save oursleves

While I do think the Judeo -Christian bible is a big mess...the further you go back..like say for instance the Summarians..where alot of the stories from the old testament were taken ..you get a much more coherent dialogue..I do believe there are something to those stories

Quote:

When I said that sky-god religions recalled "an" earlier religion, I meant it. It looks like all of these religions, including some in the Americas and Asia, were the same serpent worshipping religion. According to "conventional" knowledge, that's just not possible, because it requires a planet-spanning civilization at least 1400 years BC, which is "impossible." It would also require the following civilizations (our "ancestors") to have been less advanced.

Others have speculated that this snake cult might've been the official religion of Atlantis.

Its really sad, we don't really know our own racial history as a speices on this planet, and sadly religion doesn't encourage this knowing..our own history is a mystery to us..this is crimnal..its not right...

To this day we can't even build the Egyptian Pyramids.. not even with all of our technology to this very day we can't do it..and yet the pyramids are here they exsist..we can see touch and feel them..somebody or something built them..

..why isn't this a main topic of discussion in schools all around the world..why aren't we as a speices as the human race..not fully engaged in finding out these things..why aren't we focused on such important issues this is our planet..the answers have to be out there

Our lives are filled with so much garbage..why is that!!

I guess it all goes back to Lucifer....and Adam & Eve

maybe if Lucifer had suceeded..maybe I wouldn't be asking the question now!!

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 4:51 PM

Quote:
After I got up that day, I read a story in the newpapers about a couple who had been rescued from the Great Barrier Reef after two weeks or so on a raft that they had cobbled together from the flotsam of their exploded yacht. Their raft, such as it was, was waterlogged and sinking, and the woman has some snail-like parasites growing in her leg...

Boy, now THAT made me sit up and take notice!

It seems that you tuned into something that was actually happening

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:15 PM

NEEDLESEYE

Well this is an interesting thread!
These are a are a few real events that happened to me and I've described them as best I could, maybe a little verbose. Well, I tried.

My stories... * clears throat* here goes...

Once I was staying at my grandparents' house for the weekend. The house was originally an army barracks from WWII. It's basically two large rooms wide in front and the rest of the house extended back another 5 rooms length. It had a main hallway that extended from the back door of the house to the front rooms. Here's where it starts. My mother and aunt are sitting at the kitchen table chatting . Meanwhile, I crawl out of the hide-a-bed sofa in the living room across from them. Nature called so I walk through the hall to the bathroom which sits right behind the kitchen. I make sure to lock the bathroom door which is a switch type of latch, that needs a skeleton key to unlock it. Well, I have a seat, for the morning tinkle. I hear footsteps and the creaking floor underneath, coming up the hall from the back of the house where my cousin's room is.
In a split second I hear someone touch the door knob and unlatch the door, and at that moment I say, "Hey! I'm in here!" The door opens determinedly. I feel like screaming at first from the lack of no one there, but then become defensively angry and I quickly gather up my pajamas and swifty walk back up to the kitchen. In denial, I think it was my cousin being a jerk. I asked my mom and aunt if they'd been in the back, and who just walked up this way and opened the door on me in the bathroom!? and didn't they hear whoever it was walk up the hall? They look befuddled. My mom says, "You've missed everybody this morning, everyone else has gone to town." I told them what happened and I was a lovely shade of pale. I couldn't go back to the bathroom that day for a very long time!

Next story...
I'm at my friends house/place of business. It's a two story from about 1910 if that makes any difference. We're standing in the doorway of this bedroom trying to make a decision about a fabric.We're talking and my friend's long skirt swhooshes up at the hem making her jump, and this grayish cat swoops toward me and then under the bed, swooshing the bedskirt as well. We are both surprised. I asked which cat that was and my friend looked sheepish. I looked under the bed and called for kitty here and there, nothing. I know all her cats, and the only gray one she had was her ancient one snoozing in the living room.
She told me that she had seen "it" a couple of other times. She never wanted to say anything because her boyfriend told her she was full of it. Now that I'd seen it with her, she said she felt better knowing phantom kitty was real.

Countless other times I've thought I had seen a cat here and there, various places. I began to ignore it, and just think I'm nutty. Since this "phantom kitty" episode, I've had two other recent experiences.

I was at the dinner table eating lunch with my mother in law. I saw something out of the corner of my eye. My MIL is talking and I just look over to what caught my attention. Her cat is sitting there. The cat had gone to kitty heaven about two months previous. I zoned out for about 30 seconds while the conversation continued, I couldn't swallow or speak, just said "mm-hmm" appropriately. The kitty just sat and stared at me, and finally I had to force myself to turn my head. Of course turning back to look once more and the kitty was gone.

My most beloved kitty, gone for about a month at the time, showed up under my chair at the computer. She always liked to brush past my ankles and look up at me from under the chair. I saw her stripey brown head then the long white furry ruff, and the dark brown fur followed when I began to look down. Of course once I looked directly down there was nothing. Not long after that I saw her sitting at the end of the hallway one morning after I got up.
I'm just sitting there on the sofa, and there she is in my peripheral vision clear and out in the day light. I turn after a few moments, and again, no kitty. It upset me then, and still does, writing about it. oh well.

Keeper of Jayne's goggles. 8)

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Tuesday, November 30, 2004 8:22 PM

EBONEZER

This is a cool thread. Thanks for starting it.

I am a firm belever in the paranormal and such, and could go on and on about it, but while we're on reoccuring dreams, I'm gonna share one of mine that I've always kind of wondered about. I had this dream every now and then for a couple of years when I was little, probably around 6-8.

My parents and I are sitting at home watching Wheel of Fourtune and there's a fire comming towards our house. I'm kinda concerned but my parents don't want to leave untill the shows over (which is especialy odd sense they HATE TV). So eventually we do leave and go to this place (I would like to point out that i only dremt this begging part once, after that it picked up from here every time I had this dream) So we go to this place which is pretty much a dungeon, a lot of stone and no windows and very little light. There's also these evil (for lack of a better word) deamons running around, but who mostly stay away except for certain times. When they DO come out, you can get away from them by moving inside these rings painted on the ground. If the deamos try to come inside the ring they turn into 'good' (that is, not evil) deamons and melt into the groud.

It sounds not so terrifing now, but when I was little it scared me too death. It also leads me to wonder, has anybody had a reoccuring dream that WASN'T a nightmare?

I think dreams are very, very cool, and not to be ignored or shoved aside. Its how your brain tries to sort out whats going on in your life.

There's an experiment that I've always wanted to try (you need a partner, preferably a close friend) where, as you both fall asleep, you think about eachother, and concentraite on having a dream together. If all goes according to plan, it is possible to have a simutanious dream where you interact with eachother and both remember (upon awakening) the same dream. Supposidly. Has anyone ever experienced this?

-----------------------------------

Four out of five gynecologists reccomend calling Ebo a girl.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 5:38 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:
which I guess brings me back to my original thought..Its insane that Religion has such power and hold on people

Well, religion provides "absolute truths," things that are "certain" and that we can base our ideas of reality on. Where would we be without "Good" and "Evil?" We need the idea of Absolute Good to justify ourselves and/or tell us what to do, and of Absolute Evil to blame for our problems, failures, and weaknesses. It helps us to think that "Those People" are just Evil, and we have nothing in common with them, and so shouldn't bother trying to understand them, but just kill 'em.

Why, without religion. . . we'd have to be accountable for our own actions.

Kinda like in Jeremiah; no one to teach morals, ethics, laws. . . So what's left?

Incidentally, at least one version of the Eden story specifies that the snake wasn't actually Satan; it was just a pre-existing being that he possessed (or "corrupted"). Possibly this reflected a view that the serpent wasn't inherently Evil, but was using knowledge for Evil/destructive ends.

Quote:

Its really sad, we don't really know our own racial history as a speices on this planet, and sadly religion doesn't encourage this knowing..our own history is a mystery to us..this is crimnal..its not right...

Thus the irony of the whole "religion vs science" debate.

Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be dissassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.

Unfortunately, sometime in the past few centuries, that all went wrong.

The "Scientific Greats" became gods themselves, and their cumulative theories took on the authority of gospel truth.

Nowadays, any evidence that doesn't match the Official Theory is repressed. If the evidence can't be repressed, the means by which the evidence was gathered is dismissed. If the procedure is beyond reproach, the scientist who presents the new data is discredited and "excommunicated" from the scientific community. Like Charles Fort ( http://www.forteantimes.com/mag_info/about.shtml), they tend to be largely dismissed, and known only to those who seek them out.

We may not have public witch-burnings anymore, but people have been known to disappear under mysterious circumstances. No word yet on whether or not blue gloves are involved, but you know how it is.

Quote:

..why isn't this a main topic of discussion in schools all around the world..why aren't we as a speices as the human race..not fully engaged in finding out these things..

Like I said, no one wants to be branded a heretic.

More, no one wants to find out that their world is a lie. It tends to break people (think Mal after Serenity Valley).

Quote:
Originally posted by ebonezer:
When they DO come out, you can get away from them by moving inside these rings painted on the ground. If the deamos try to come inside the ring they turn into 'good' (that is, not evil) deamons and melt into the groud.

Interesting use of symbolism; the protective binding circle is an Earth symbol. Perhaps the demons you're seeing are Earth spirits, inhabiting the (probably subterranean) dungeon.

(Cool trivia: the circle protects what's inside from things outside. Conversely, a triangle imprisons things inside it. Note that the Jewish Star of David is two triangles forming a vaguely circular shape. . .)

The fire could represent anything; likely something that you're aware of, but that your parents/society don't see, perhaps because they've been trained to look the other way. Ironic in a way, because the "wheel of fortune" is a karmic symbol (which, I guess would make Vanna White into Kali. . .).

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 1:05 PM

Note: I've quickly typed this, so if there is any agressiveness, etc in it, please don't take it as such. I just don't have the time to go over it with a fine tooth comb right now to be sure of the politically correctness

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:

Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be dissassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.
[snip]

Actually, initially science was religion. This is especially evident in the fact that the only people that were educated were the priests or whatever the equivalent was called. The more bold amoung them tried to describe god's great creation ("science").

You say that the theories have taken on gospel truth and that is far from the truth. The only reason why people think this is that they have no idea how the scientific community works, nor do they have much of an idea of how science works in general.

So, someone comes up with this theory to try to bring it to a level that they'd understand and people buy it because they understand that theory. After all, if someone doesn't understand something then they are forced to admitt that they aren't as smart as they think they are (or at least lack some knowledge) and that can't be, right? Because we're all special, etc.

As an example, Einstien's relativity has undergone changes since it's original creation. People have found mistakes in it and have fixed them. People are still doing research in relativity as there are still problems with it. This wouldn't happen if Einstien and his theory was taken as gospel truth. This is especially evident in the fact that is is widely regarded as not TOE.

An example of people be skeptical is string theory. The problem people have with it, is that although many find it a pretty, excellent theory, it has yet to produce even one prediction. Since it has been around for some time this makes people skeptical of it.

Also, if it relativity was gospel truth, then it would be the ultimate truth and as such, no problems would be found (or at least they would be justified somehow). Again, this is wrong as stated above.

Would you consider Stephen Wolfram to be a modern day Fort? After all, his work is widely discredited. But then again, if you look into the nature of his book "A New Kind of Science", it is a wide departure from any current way of thinking that was published by his own company and as such didn't undergo any peer review. Also, there is some other things about this man that would make anyone skeptical about his "work." But I'll stop here as it's rather OT.

If you want to get into the "Is science a religion?" discussion then read and post to:

http://www.fireflyfans.net/thread.asp?b=18&t=7799

as much has been done there already and it's rather OT here.

Now onto the topic of this thread. *taking a deep breath*

OK, a couple years ago I had this dream. I'll start here as this seems to be the topic at hand. Here's some background.

I was still living at home and we had a dog. As time went on he started to not know where he was, who people were, etc.

It got to the point, where we let him out to go to the bathroom in the backyard and when done, he'd go to the opposite corner of the yard and wait to be let in. He'd also wander around like he had no clue of where he was or where he was going (this would happen before and after he went).

It kept getting worse until I was the only one that could pet him as he'd just run away from other people. He would run into my room (away from a chasing cat) and would let me pet him and then he'd go away.

As my family tends to be loud, during the day I usually have my door closed and as such this happened typically while I was still in bed and as such had to reach off the side of my bed to pet him (this plays a role later, I swear).

So, after some time of this being the situation I started dropping hints that it was getting time to put him down as no-one else seemed to be willing to bring it up. Of course this lead to some screaming matches the last one of which ended with me screaming "It's not what you want or what your ready to do! It's what's best for the dog!" A few days later my dad came to me and asked me to drive him and the dog to the vet that weekend.

The time came and after an emotional day, I went to sleep that night and dreamed that my dog had ran up to me and let me pet him and then he playfully scampered off which is when I woke up.

The thing is that my arm was hanging off the bed like I was petting him just before (I told you it played a role). The thing is that since I always slept right beside the wall my bed was next to, I never, and I mean never woke up with any appendage off the bed before, nor have I since.

The interesting thing is that the next night (or the same night after I went back to sleep, can't remember, been some time) I had a similar dream. Except this time the dog, when I went to pet him, became vicious and went to attack me. At which point I woke up rather spooked.

I still don't know if my dog came back to thank me, or if he came back pissed, or if this is just my subconcious trying to deal with the whole situation. I hope it's the first one, but the two dreams being contradictory brings questioning to my mind.

At any point, that's all I'm comfortable sharing in public. If anyone is in that boat totally or not, or if some would be more willing to share in a mailing list enviornment (moderated or not), I could set that up. If it is wanted, post here or PM me through this board. And if you think you are alone and don't want to say anything, I already know of two others that are willing. At any rate, it's an option.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 6:55 PM

Quote:
Why, without religion. . . we'd have to be accountable for our own actions.

Would that really be so bad...I think its time we grew up!!

Quote:
Incidentally, at least one version of the Eden story specifies that the snake wasn't actually Satan; it was just a pre-existing being that he possessed (or "corrupted"). Possibly this reflected a view that the serpent wasn't inherently Evil, but was using knowledge for Evil/destructive ends.

there seems to be some discrepancies in the nature of Lucifer/Satan/snake/, it seems that its not clear if he was really evil...these entities seem to be interchangeable and different at times..which I'm sure comes from editing of the stories from their original context

But the Judeo Christian bible never really states what knowledge was given to Adam & Eve/ Humans...or how that knowledge was used for evil purposes..so it seems just the act alone of giving knowlege..was the reason for the punishment

Quote:
Thus the irony of the whole "religion vs science" debate.

Initially, science (and history, by association) was the anti-religion, intended to look at quantifiable, empirical evidence and form logical conclusions based on that evidence. When evidence is found that doesn't fit the model, then the model is to be disassembled and replaced with a new model that accounts for all the evidence.

I don't think that science alone has all the answers..Religion certainly does not..I think the answers lye somewhere in the middle..( one of the big problems are, nobody wants to admit that there is a middle)I think a big part of the problem is that those who understand science don't really want to take seriously or recognize religion.. in the sense that it is based on some facts. as in being based on a reality...I'm not saying its the same reality that has been handed down and packaged and presented to us....but I do think those stories are based on a reality, I think ultimately that science will come to acknowledging this but its going to take time. since truth is the ultimate goal in science...there is a better chance of that happening versus religious establishment

Its the same problem with Religion only more so, those on that side of the issue don't want to admit that science is a reality as if applies to them ,if they did that, they would have to look at those stories in a more realistic and less Supernatural way and this could be destructive to the establishment..it might lessen their hold or power on their subjects and that's not a chance they want to take..The establishment(religion) reasons for keeping knowledge away is purely selfish and self serving, and all about power

the further you look into the situation of it all the more ironic it becomes.

Just as another poster said...even religion itself comes from science..priest in the ancient days were the ones that were schooled and educated...they were what we would consider scientist today.

If science were to acknowledge based on evidence, that Gods exist..and they are responsible for this thing we call religion, and that their stories and deeds have been recorded throughout the ages and is what mythologies and bibles are based upon..then we would have to seriously look into the nature of what and who those beings are and our relation to them.

I believe that this will happen eventually if we don't kill ourselves 1rst

But this will still be a big problem for the religious establishment who's reason for keeping knowledge secret or away from their subjects is still the same reasons its always been ..they don't want to lose their power and hold over people

Then we would be looking at a real core problem..the problem of perception.. which I believe is the real problem today...how can the truth be turned into a lie.....it can happen when you can take a reality and change it until its unrecognizable..( this can happen in a variety of ways both intentional and unintentional)I think this is largely what's happened with religion so to speak

and would people even accept the truth if their perception of that truth had to change to fit the reality of that truth( I think this is a real problem)

What if it came out that yes what we have called Gods throughout the ages exist..but they weren't supernatural in nature..they were just more advanced beings with superior knowledge and technology and that they were much like ourselves with faults and imperfections

If our perceptions of what we have been told had to change Could people handle it..Could all those people who go to church every sunday and prostrate themselves before the cross or whatever symbol they hold sacred..could they handle changing their perceptions. or would they break, I mean we have whole cultures that are based upon and revolve around religion,around these stories.

I think ultimately that people could handle changing their perception to fitting a true reality..but again it would have to start with knowledge.

It always amazes me how people who claim to be religious don't know alot about their own religion, alot of people don't know for instance, that alot of the stories in the bible especially the old testament..is really a condensed version of older stories taken from other cultures like Mesopotamia/Sumaria and contain more then one God..that the one God came with monotheism

That christmas is an old pagan holiday that dates back to ancient times that celebrated the winter solstice and has nothing to do with Jesus Christ..ok I think alot of people know about that one but some don't seem to...

People say amen in church after a sermon or prayer..little knowing that it comes from Amen Ra the Egyptian God.

there are a whole host of other examples if anyone else wants to list some please feel free

To give something like religion such power over your life you would at least think people would have full knowledge of it or seek out knowledge of it.. educate themselves and research what they claim to hold so scared, (I suppose if they did that they wouldn't ) but of course they don't...again knowledge is power and ignorance a slave

(I'm not talking about spiritual matters, I'm purely talking about religion based on stories that have been handed down and held sacred..Spirtual matters is something totally different at least from my point of view..I see spirituality and religion as to separate things, we are spiritual beings... that being a fact then nothing can take that away.. and that has nothing to do with religion)Religion might need to take on spiritual aspects... But spirituality does not need religion.

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Wednesday, December 1, 2004 7:14 PM

NEEDLESEYE

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:

... dreamed that my dog had ran up to me and let me pet him and then he playfully scampered off which is when I woke up.

... the next night (or the same night after I went back to sleep, can't remember, been some time) I had a similar dream. Except this time the dog, when I went to pet him, became vicious and went to attack me. At which point I woke up rather spooked.

I still don't know if my dog came back to thank me, or if he came back pissed, or if this is just my subconcious trying to deal with the whole situation.

Just my thoughts on your dream. The first dream was your dog, "free spirited", visiting you. The second one was you dreaming, thinking of the prior dream, but your subconcious possibly feeling guilty for having to put him to sleep, created the angry dog.

Keeper of Jayne's goggles. 8)

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 2:34 PM

PERIDIDDLE

This is a really interesting thread. It's great that you guys are so open about discussing this all in depth.

I don't really think I've had paranormal experiences, though my mom has had a bit of objects moving and things turning themselves on. But that was in my Aunt's house...

I do have a house with a high chance of actually being a place to have a paranormal encounter. A friend of mine's mom told me about her cousin that lived in my house before we moved in. They had two sons, one much older than the other. During the winter, the younger son would play in the snow and would occasionally run out onto the lake to get his toys that rolled out onto the frozen ice. If he ever fell through into the water, his brother had a crane (or something similar, I guess) that could get him out, but I don't think it ever happened. Until I guess one day, the younger son's ball rolled out onto the ice, and he ran out to get it. The ice must've been too thin, because he fell through. He drowned because his brother wasn't around to get him out.

Even though they strained the lake and got the body, I guess it would be an interesting place to explore the different things you could do. I've known the little history of my home since I was in 1st grade (7th, now) and I've always wondered about that lake. The previously mentioned friend and I have talked about doing a séance, but I'm not sure if we could ever get around to it. *Shrug*

Just my little random comment. ^_^

"Bwaa...it's kind of a warrior...strikes fear into the hearts of..."

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 5:38 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

My comments on religion: I always thought it was funny when religious people said the gods are powerful and unknowable, and then said you have to listen to them b/c they had the gods all figured out and under their control. Talk about a fast circular spin. That's why I like the Tao, it starts out: the path that can be named is not the path.

But I do sometimes wonder if some of the religious myths carry a trace of the human transformation: before and after language (~ a mere 100,000 yrs ago), before and after clothes (~ 50,000 yrs ago). Aborigines talk about the 'dream time', the bible talks about knowledge of good and evil (language?), nakedness and shame, and eviction from Eden (human trek out of Africa?).

As to mysterious experiences, I've been pretty deprived. I have had only a few relatively benign experiences (that I couldn't otherwise explain). One example that happened to me when I was awake: I was sitting with a bunch of undergrad and grad students around a table. Then I sort of went away -
- I was a teenager in a small, low, log cabin (dirt floor, one door, one window with a closed shutter next to the door), sitting on the only chair, facing the fireplace with my back to the door, which was closed. It was at night, it was dark except for the fire, and I was alone. I was waiting for someone to come home, and I had a feeling that I would be ready to peacefully wait for ... as long as it took. Then I had the impression of white wings fluttering and bright sunlight. The strange thing was when I came to, it was like I was being boot-strapped from infancy. There was this sensation that was bothering me, which got resolved into light, then color, then shapes (corners and lines), then identifiable objects (books), and from that, an identity (my books) and knowledge of who I was and where I was. I was looking down, but I KNEW that the person sitting next to me had turned to me and was leaning my way to say something (they'd noticed). So to forestall a conversation I didn't want to get into, I yawned and shifted, and I knew that the person turned back to the rest of the people at the table. I knew what other people at the table were doing as well, and I confirmed it later from a couple of others there. It was as if I could sense their electric fields.

Also, I swear, things turn off and things fall down when I get near them - within 30 feet or so.

SigmaNunki - I'd be willing to get into that.

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Thursday, December 2, 2004 8:36 PM

You know there are supposed to be three stages of Deities we have gone through. The first stage deity represents power. The classic "thunder god" such as Zeus.
The second stage deity represents justice. The G*d of Judaism working through Moses to free his people from slavery is supposed to be a second stage deity.

The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.

Myself, I believe there will come a time when our science and mythology will mesh. Religion and the physical world will become one. Physicists are working on a unified field theory that will explain how any sort of energy (and by extension matter) is related to and interchangeable with a like measure of another form of energy.

Take this a step further from the physical world and into the metaphysical and that is where I am aiming. All energy, matter, metaphysical beings or events are related and fungible. I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, December 3, 2004 5:15 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.

Serenity.

(

)

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

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Friday, December 3, 2004 9:23 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.

Aside from the two being completely different, your right. I'll only talk about energy as that seems to be the topic.

Science is a description of what engery is and does by our empirical studies. We then create theory on it and predict more. The cycle continues. It also studies how it might work and be controlled.

Religion is the *belief* of what it all *means*. By definition this is outside the realm of science.

What you are talking about is metaphysics, not science. Very *very* different.

It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It just means that they are different. Some would say complementary. Basically, just because things run in parallel doesn't mean that they are equal. And just because some things use the same word, doesn't mean they are the same thing (ie energy).

As an example, if I hold a coaster at 1 meter above the ground it will have a certain amount of potential energy. If I let it go it's potential will become kinetic energy until it hits the ground. At that time that energy will be transformed into heat, compression of the ground, etc.

This is not the same "energy" that people talk about when they say, "Let's send healing energy to someone that is sick."

Things can be very differnt when spoken about in different contexts.

progress update: The mailing list is almost setup and will most likely be done tonight

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Friday, December 3, 2004 10:10 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Cybersnark:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:
The third stage deity is supposed to represent love and acceptance. If there is a 4th stage it hasn't been quantified yet.

Serenity.

( )

-----
We applied the cortical electrodes but were unable to get a neural reaction from either patient.

Awesome!

I likes

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Friday, December 3, 2004 7:48 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

I have never seen a barrier dividing science and religion and I think those that do are being a bit too literal minded, YMMV.

Aside from the two being completely different, your right. I'll only talk about energy as that seems to be the topic.

Science is a description of what engery is and does by our empirical studies. We then create theory on it and predict more. The cycle continues. It also studies how it might work and be controlled.

Religion is the *belief* of what it all *means*. By definition this is outside the realm of science.

What you are talking about is metaphysics, not science. Very *very* different.

It doesn't mean that one is better than the other. It just means that they are different. Some would say complementary. Basically, just because things run in parallel doesn't mean that they are equal. And just because some things use the same word, doesn't mean they are the same thing (ie energy).

As an example, if I hold a coaster at 1 meter above the ground it will have a certain amount of potential energy. If I let it go it's potential will become kinetic energy until it hits the ground. At that time that energy will be transformed into heat, compression of the ground, etc.

This is not the same "energy" that people talk about when they say, "Let's send healing energy to someone that is sick."

Things can be very differnt when spoken about in different contexts.

progress update: The mailing list is almost setup and will most likely be done tonight

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

Sorry Sigmanuki, this is exactly what I am talking about when I say being too literally minded. Yes, there is energy built up in picking up that coaster. And dropping it releases that energy and the resulting impact (assuming you drop it in a gravity well) results in thermal energy, and kinetic energy transfer. But if I unexpectedly liberate all the atomic bonds in that coaster when you pick it up there will be a mighty big bang and resulting kinetic, thermal and photonic release as well as higher order radiation.

At one time the church refused to believe there was such a thing as vacuum, the prosecuted people as heretics and blasphemers for belief or investigation of the phenomenon. They were being WAY too literally minded. More to the point they were clinging to an outmoded world view. As science advances, the world as we perceive it changes as well.

What I am saying is that one day our science may find a way to explain how events replay themselves or how a person or animal may linger or or return after their death. At one time people looked at the veins in a tree's leaf and saw the hand of God. Our science is advanced enough that it can tell us that those patterns are a circulatory system and describe their function and what they carry, even what the cells do with them and deeper, how the cells work. This doesn't take away the wonder of that leaf, it amplifies it. I see the hand of God more clearly with each baby step forward our science advances.

Doctor Duncan Macdougal, at the turn of the 20th century, tried to weigh the soul. He performed a series of experiments where he placed moribund patients on a bed sized scale and when they expired their weights decreased according to the scale. His experiment was not scientifically valid due to limitations of equipment and small sample size, but he did record a weight change of about 3/4 of an ounce. I consider this an oddity, nothing more. But I wonder why nobody has tried to repeat this experiment?

Science, like religion has its adherents and defenders of the faith. Like religion it also has beliefs and persecutes those that challenge its established notions. I am saying that you have to remain open to the fantastic possibilities hiding in plain sight.

I have a theory that the spiritual and scientific world will someday meet, that's all.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Friday, December 3, 2004 8:54 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Science, like religion has its adherents and defenders of the faith. Like religion it also has beliefs and persecutes those that challenge its established notions. I am saying that you have to remain open to the fantastic possibilities hiding in plain sight.

I have a theory that the spiritual and scientific world will someday meet, that's all.

I wrote a fair post basically proving that this is wrong. But, whatever. If you want to discuss this then post in the appropriate area (it's OT here). I've linked the thread above. Read the posts I as well as others have made and continue it if you want. The discussion is more towards the bottom of the thread.

Basically, you are confusing science, religion and metaphysics. They *are* different. And I'm not even sure if you have a accurate view of science in general by some of the things you've posted. And some of them are actually wrong.

Your *conjecture* is interesting and could one day be true. But it is conjecture, and *metaphysics* and doesn't fit the established current definitions of either field. And that is what you must realize.

EDIT:
I have set up the mailing list but am unable to iron out the last wrinkles as I'm too tired. So, it'll have to wait till tommorow.

The problems are with the moderation of the emails sent to the list. I'm doing this so that people don't have to worry about ridicul, etc.

Sorry, my self imposed deadline of tonight is unreachable. But, it should be running by tommorow afternoon... I hope

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Sigmanuki:

I wrote a fair post basically proving that this is wrong. But, whatever. If you want to discuss this then post in the appropriate area (it's OT here). I've linked the thread above. Read the posts I as well as others have made and continue it if you want. The discussion is more towards the bottom of the thread.

Basically, you are confusing science, religion and metaphysics. They *are* different. And I'm not even sure if you have a accurate view of science in general by some of the things you've posted. And some of them are actually wrong.

Your *conjecture* is interesting and could one day be true. But it is conjecture, and *metaphysics* and doesn't fit the established current definitions of either field. And that is what you must realize.

Actually Sigmanuki I found your first post insultingly dismissive. You completely missed the entire point of the paragraph you attacked. When I tried to point out you were illustrating a quality that I had identified as personally disagreeable to me you seemed to take offense. Sorry about that, the world is full of folks who don't see it your way. You want to quibble over definitions instead of the thought being offered for consideration.

Additionally, your argument about religion and metaphysics being completely different is falacious. Metaphysics and religion go hand in hand. Aside from studying the nature of being metaphysics attempts to study the nature of God. And since religions started out as science, an attempt to explain the function of the world around those people. In the intervening centuries religion has gotten much closer to parapsychology. Doesn't that even suggest there might be some connection? You seem cemented in judeo-christian dogma. Again, open your mind.

And since you love to harp on scientific method, let me ask you this; what we are doing here is sharing stories of paranormal events. Aren't we trying to make sense of the world around us? Isn't that science by your own definition earlier in this thread? How can parapsychology, metaphysics and religion be science in your rational, compartmentalized world?

After reading that other well and truly hijacked thread I see this is ground you've been over before. A discussion is an exchange of idea where you consider the other party's point, not you beating someone over the head with yours. You should try it sometime.

The more I get to know people the more I like my dogs.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 9:32 AM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi Hardware,

Generally I agree with your posts, but I would like to address the question of 'what is science'.

The problem with 'large' definitions "X is attempting to explain the world around you" is that sometimes valid distinctions are lost.

For example, I remember watching a small child 'get' language: she pointed to a small black paint spot on the floor and said "Dah?" to which I said "Spot". Then she excitedly pointed to a small nail hole in the wall saying "Dah?" to which I said "Hole". Then she scurried to the patio and put a small finger down next to an ant crawling on the cement, said "Dah?" and I said "Ant." And so on. BTW this really happened. It was exciting to watch her comprehend that these 'small dark things' with significant similarities WERE different and had different names.

And so I believe it is true of religion, metaphysics, and science.

I think SigmaNunki is not a disbeliever in the paranormal, but is also a scientist trying to draw dintinctions between the various human endeavors: religion, science, and metaphysics. I don't quite know where the insistence comes from, but as a scientist myself, I understand the position (though I don't think I am so insistent).

I see (this is just my personal observation) an underlying thread in the postings, which is, to prevent non-scientists - who don't do science and don't know the process - from defining 'what is science'.

My personal perspective about why it is so important to maintain these vital distinctions is that without them, the battle in the classrooms between science and religion masquerading as science, is lost.

You may be aware of the education 'evolution v creation' debate in the US. Somewhere I read that 55% of people 'believe' in creation (this is our first and final form, made by god), while only 40% think evolution is a viable theory. (That's scary, and the state of US education is going to be one reason why the US economy will be superceded: like Pakistan, its madrasses, and its economy - but I digress.) And in some states there is a special sticker on the front of science books with a disclaimer that evolution is only a theory.

Two things come to mind: 1) ALL scienctific concepts are only theories - gravity is only a theory, the atomic model is only a theory, light as a wave is only a theory etc, but other theories do not seem to need disclaimers, and 2) science is not about belief. You do not look at one version and another version and decide in which you will 'believe'.

I can't speak for science, or scientists, but I am acutely aware of the limitations of science. Not just because human perceptions are physically limited in scale, energy range etc, but b/c our modeling capability is pre-formed in our primate brain, and our language and culture structure both skew our perceptions and our interpretations (the alpha male theory of society as a failed model comes to mind).

In some sense there is a certain level of 'belief' at the bedrock of science, what SignyM pointed out as 'a priori' assumptions. There is a real world 'out there' beyond our skin, it works through consistent processes, and these processes can be addressed through observation and logic; and probably others I haven't mentioned. But that doesn't make science a 'religion' per se. It puts the explination of our world in OUR laps, available for formulation and testing. Etc. Etc. I'm sure you realize that science is a 'test to destruction' process for ideas.

Anyway, sorry to ramble, and I hope you don't feel as if people are trying to gang up on you. But I think it is important to understand that science, religion, and metaphysics are unique from each other; that they all contribute to human thought; and that one does not perform the function of the other.

Thanks.
Rue

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 9:46 AM

HKCAVALIER

Hey, everyone! It's funny, this really ought to be my favorite thread on the board and I should have posted ten times by now, but I'm finding it hard to find my way in. For me there's a heavy undertone of tragedy to a lot of the stories I've read here. Experiences and visions that could form the basis of a deeply spiritual life full of knowledge and transformative power, instead get tossed in the dustbin of "isn't that weird?"

The other thing is, I'm writing a book about this stuff (or should be

), so whole chapters will spring to mind from reading one sentence! Talk about your bottleneck! Please forgive me if I ramble!

PirateJenny, what if that pyramid dream of yours were a vision of a real life? What if your parents had sent you as a little girl to study with a shaman to bring the full meaning of the old man's measage to light? What if that shaman could have taught you how to travel to the pyramid whenever you wished and study with the old man every night (if you could handle it)? Where would your life have gone? What would you be doing now?

ConnorFlynn, I'm so sorry about that whole "demonboy" thing. Just the idea that your psychologist told her gorram son about your case, floors me and puts me into a minor league rage. That is a serious breach of ethics and she should have lost her license. What the

was she telling her school-age son about one of her patients for??? But as you say, it was the 70's and those were some dark damn times. You see, consciously or not, she was doing her job as one of the guardians of orthodoxy and consensual reality by stigmatizing you and setting your perception up for ridicule. There is nothing more destructive.

I wish I could turn all the "could very well be's" and "in some way maybe's" in these stories to "you better believe it's" and "absolutely's." Seriously, all o' ya's, this stuff is for real. Each recurrance of a dream is a chance, a doorway waiting to be walked through. Before you go to sleep at night, talk to your dreams, ask for the one's you want, don't take no for an answer, and never give up because you're "just being silly!"

A few notes on snakes: The snake/serpent/dragon in ancient times was associated with female power and wisdom. One of the fundamental missions of patriarchy has always been to discredit and demonize female power and wisdom. As major patriarchal religions go, the Catholic Church has a remarkably, I won't say balanced, but at least semi-respectful relationship to the feminine. No other Christian faith now extant venerates the Mother of God as the Church does Mary. Of course, Mary and Eve are both names stollen from Goddesses the Church wanted to co-opt. In Catholic dogma there's a phrase: felix culpa or "happy fault" used to refer to that whole apple eating venture. See, to the Catholics, strictly speaking, eating the apple was the best thing that ever happened to us, because it was the inaugural act of free will and gave us the power to choose God and not just bask in his love like tiny children. The story isn't saying that we're meant to remain stupid and ignorant. It's about that wish we all carry that we we could stay little beloved children forever, but that ain't part of the plan. The snake played an innevitable role, and Eve had the personal courage to challenge God's authority and think for herself.

Quote:
Ouija Boards are the spiritual equivalent of opening all the door and windows of your house and yelling "PARTY!!! FREE BEER!!!"

Priceless! Absolutely! As I understand it, disincarnates gain some kind of sustainance from the emotions of us mortals. The tactic I've observed on more than one occasion and heard countless stories about goes like this: malevolent spirit tells you a bunch of uncanny stuff to get you hooked and then when you've given up all your skepticism and discernment this spirit starts telling you that it's the ghost of Ted Bundy (or some other notorious bogeyman) and you're going to die a horrible death. Emotional feeding frenzy ensues. It's a mediated form of possession, really. One of my favorite ocultists, William Shakespeare, put it this way:

Quote:
And oftentimes to win us to our harm,
The instruments of darkness tell us truths;
Win us with honest trifles, to betray's
In deepest consequence.

PirateJenny, I don't know where to begin with the Lucifer stuff. A truly inspired summary of the Lucifer Rebelion, its success and consequences for the human race can be found in a book called "Nothing in This Book is True, but It's Exactly How Things Are" by Bob Frissell. I just gotta say that people do know how the pyramids were made and the history of our race is available. I'd be willing to bet that the old man from your dreamlife is one of them that knows. You just can't get this stuff from a book or take a course in it. The first thing you gotta learn is discernment and cultivate an unwavering faith in your intuition. You've got to got to find that old man again and tell us what he said!

Anyway, I'm gonna leave it at that for now. I have a bazillion stories I could share but I'll save those for later. Thanks PirateJenny for starting the ball rolling!

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 10:19 AM

SIGNYM

I believe in solving problems, not sharing them.

Just to lob something into the discussion... then I goota go and play tennis, get exercised and all that...

Scientists are beginning to study the brains of people who have unusual experiences or who are trained in various forms of meditation. There are certain types of experiences, such as deja vu, jamais vu, or extreme depersonalization, that are already known to be caused by temporal lobe seizures. THere was a recent report of a person undergoing neurosurgery whose "out-of-body" neurons were stimulated while the surgeons were probing for functional areas. (It happened repeatedly, with each stimulation) I think it was in the deep temporal lobe. Buddhist monks who are deeply trained in a type of meditation aimed at increasing inner peace and outer awareness show a very different pattern of brainwaves (higher frequency than nml, and in different areas) than "regular" people. And certain type of manias (orographia) which tend to focus on religious or spiritual themes, are also a form of seizure. Even that "moving towards the light" that dying people have reported is hypothesized to be a form of neural shutdown.

Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 10:42 AM

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Sorry about that, the world is full of folks who don't see it your way. You want to quibble over definitions instead of the thought being offered for consideration.

And you don't seem to realize that the world is full of people that consider science as a religion because people don't understand science.

They take at face value what the religous experts say about religion, but fail in this regard when it comes to science. Because of course, religous people and laymen know more about science than the scientists, right?

Case and point. If you ask any established scientist (the guys with the white hair) they'll tell you exactly how limited science is and exactly how much we really know (which is not much to put it mildly).

Science doesn't claim to have the answers, religion does. That is one of the *many* major differences. You are talking about philosophy, metaphysics, *not* science.

About the definitions, see below.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

Additionally, your argument about religion and metaphysics being completely different is falacious. Metaphysics and religion go hand in hand.

Metaphysics: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Metaphysics
Religion: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=religion

Perhaps you should look to find out what things *really* are before you start spouting off. They *are* different, *very* different.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

And since religions started out as science, an attempt to explain the function of the world around those people.

You have it backwards. Science started out as religion. Or more correctly, science grew out of religion.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

In the intervening centuries religion has gotten much closer to parapsychology. Doesn't that even suggest there might be some connection? You seem cemented in judeo-christian dogma. Again, open your mind.

Parapsychology: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=parapsychology

What?

And for the record, since you didn't actually read what I've written on this topic before, I would consider my path *far* closer to Wicca, Shinto, Buddhism, etc than *any* Judeo-Christian religion.

My mind *is* open, but I would think by way of what you are typing here that *yours* in not, nor have you done your homework when it comes to such matters as the links I've provided proves.

Don't speak in general terms if you cannot support a general argument.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

And since you love to harp on scientific method, let me ask you this; what we are doing here is sharing stories of paranormal events. Aren't we trying to make sense of the world around us? Isn't that science by your own definition earlier in this thread? How can parapsychology, metaphysics and religion be science in your rational, compartmentalized world?

LOL, you have no idea what my world is like. You are making assumptions about it instead of asking questions. Also, this thread isn't a scientific endeavour. It's sharing experiences, which is rather different.

Of course I (as *everyone*) has put some things in little boxes. But, I have *many* things that are in the "unexplained" box or things that are in the "hope" box.

The problem with your argument is that you have made up your own definitions for these things whereas I've gone out and found that actual defintions and used those.

I've spoken to experts, read books, etc that are in these fields and I've *listened* to them. This is how I've come to my conclusions. I gather as much data as I can and conclude from there. From what you've said, I'd gather that you haven't.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hardware:

After reading that other well and truly hijacked thread I see this is ground you've been over before. A discussion is an exchange of idea where you consider the other party's point, not you beating someone over the head with yours. You should try it sometime.

Actually, to hijack a thread the conversation has to be continuing on the original thread topic. If you would go back and *read* it you would see that the thread went through about 3 topics. And you clearly missed LostInTheVerse's (who started the thread) post:
"But as it was the natural evolution of the thread, I don't see it as a hijacking."

This is what happens in conversations. People start talking about one thing, which inevitably leads to something else, etc until what is talked about has nothing to do with the original topic.

And if you would read that thread, you would see that I presented ideas that contradicted others, presented supporting evidence and in some cases proof. The ones that were "on the other side" then went on as if ignoring what I said and continued on there marry way. That is the reason (if you would read you would see) that I stopped talking to Jasonzzz. He became irrational.

TragicStory also asked for a "our" definition of religion and then he would try to argue his case using "our" definition. I provided many, but then he seemed to disappear. I'd say this is rather telling of the strength of his argument.

After this happened Rue, SignyM, HKCavalier and myself had a productive discussion, which will hopefully continue. But, then again, we all just didn't say that "you are wrong, I'm right here's how it is." We brought in logic and supporting arguments. We linked to documents and quoted.

Sure, I'm probably guilty of that here somewhat, but that's because I'm getting sick of people having unmoving opinions about something that they at most have a passing laymen's knowledge of. ie There is more to science and such than just popular books on the topic. It gets rather more deep than that.

I'd also like to know, that since you seem to want to argue your case using non-standard definitions for these feilds, how do you expect anyone to even have a chance of seeing your point of view? I mean, if you're using some secret definition that only you know, how am I to understand?

And on a last point, if anyone here, in this thread, has done any hijacking, it's you and I've been dragged into it. I've encouraged you to post in a thread that would be *far* more appropriate that this one. So, if you post a reply there, I'll answer you. If you post again about this here, I'll ignore you. I will not be dragged any further into this off topic discussion.

And if you don't want to take my word for it, listen to Rue. He's more diplomatic than I and has created a nice desciption.

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 11:24 AM

I've finished the mailing list. As it turns out, I was doing something wrong to make it behave badly. There *is* something to say about being well rested

To subscribe to the list send an email to majordomo at fireflylabs dot ca.

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----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Saturday, December 4, 2004 5:08 PM

RUE

I have a vote and I'm not afraid to use it!

Hi HK!
Glad to see you here!
(that's all)

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Monday, December 6, 2004 1:24 PM

Hardware wrote:

Quote:
Religion and the physical world will become one. Physicists are working on a unified field theory that will explain how any sort of energy (and by extension matter) is related to and interchangeable with a like measure of another form of energy.

are you talking about spirtual matters or Religious matters....because I don't see how religion and the physical world can become one

religion and spirtuality(metaphyscial arent' the same)

Judiasm Buddism..Muslim...Christanity .... Paganism Zoarosterism Hinduism based on stories handed down from the past..(mytholoy/history)..
those are religions

so they can't join with the physical world

I see this as part of the larger problem..people lumping religion in with spirtuality

we are spirtual beings..our spirt is something that is in us its apart of our make up..its not something that can be taken away..or exsist outside of ourselves..its inside..so the spirt or spituality does not need religion to exsist

Thats why in my previous post, I said we are more likely to find out more about the soul/spirt metaphysical world from science....then we are from the religious establishment..science ultimate goal is to find the truth

The goal of the religious establishment is not so pure..so we as a speices aren't going to find any real answers there..just more of the same old same old!!

the metaphysical spirtual world might become more tangiable at some point in time..as science becomes more focused and knowlegable about it

religion is already a physical thing its something that we help create...

so if you could clarify....

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Monday, December 6, 2004 1:57 PM

Quote:
Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.

Religion is all about power, its about giving up power and giving away power its about looking outside of ones self, for answers instead of looking in, its about giving up respossiblity, and putting that respossiblity onto something outside of ourselves

spirtual matters do not have to be tied to any religion unless the person whoes having such an experience wants to believe that something outside of himself is responssible for the experiences

but we are physical beings we do live in this physical,material world..and our five senses are grounded in this world, totally shaping our perceptions of our world...the brain is part of the physical body...and could very well be an antenna to the metaphysical world..certain drugs could open up path ways to other senses that we don't use..doesn't mean that these experiences aren't happening

I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch

If our spirts survive after our physical body dies, then it would make sense that apart of us, the spirtual part would operate in a totally diffrent way. thats not bound by the laws of the material world..ways that we can't explain at this point in time..but perhaps will be able to in the future

I think we have these experiences to let us know to remind us that we are more then what we see..or appear..we are more then these bodies we inhabit

we as a speices may not understand pyschic ablities or how it works..but we know that it exsist..that it is an abilty that people have..as I'm sure there are other abilites people have , such as moving objects with thoughts etc..etc..

ther are more then just the five senses that we depend so heavily on that grounds our perceptions, just because we only use five doesn't mean there aren't more that may operate on another level and open the door to other worlds that we can't precieve...

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Monday, December 6, 2004 2:31 PM

RUE Wrote:

Quote:
My personal perspective about why it is so important to maintain these vital distinctions is that without them, the battle in the classrooms between science and religion masquerading as science, is lost.

I think this is so important..Religion, Science, Metaphysical

are 3 seperate things

religion is a belife system , science is the study of our physical world and how it operates and to use and manipulate that knowlege for our use, the metaphysical world has yet to be explained

I think people get confused and its easy to see why religion tries to take on science and the metaphysical usually with some supernatural bent

science tries to stay grounded in the physical...and does so for the most part and tries to ignore the metaphysical..which becomes a problem..because as spirtual beings we are operating on two levels the physical and the spirtual, often times when faced with the paranormal metaphysical..science tends to chalk it up to a brain glitch..instead of taking it more seriously.

so yes ..

Is it any wonder that Regilion as been able to take spirtual truths and twist and turn them for their benifit

But unlike religion science readily admits that it does not have all the answers, and their is much to be learned, This is why Science is our best hope ....but its science that is going to have to start laying the ground work...

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Monday, December 6, 2004 3:10 PM

Quote:

PirateJenny, I don't know where to begin with the Lucifer stuff. A truly inspired summary of the Lucifer Rebelion, its success and consequences for the human race can be found in a book called "Nothing in This Book is True, but It's Exactly How Things Are" by Bob Frissell. I just gotta say that people do know how the pyramids were made and the history of our race is available. I'd be willing to bet that the old man from your dreamlife is one of them that knows. You just can't get this stuff from a book or take a course in it. The first thing you gotta learn is discernment and cultivate an unwavering faith in your intuition. You've got to got to find that old man again and tell us what he said!

I'll definetly check out the book thanks

I've wondered about that recurring dream since it started...if I ever have it again, I hope I can remember what the old man said!!

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Monday, December 6, 2004 4:04 PM

Quote:
Originally posted by piratejenny:

I think this is where science often makes its mistake by assuming that if it can't be readily explained..then its little more then a brain glitch

I'd hate to do this as I agree with a lot of what you say, but this statement is rather inaccurate.

It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.

The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.

Perhaps at one point in the future science will stumble across something that will lead in this direction. But until then, this is all *way* outside the realm of science.

There is also the idea of Achems razor...

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Monday, December 6, 2004 10:18 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SignyM:
Just to lob something into the discussion... then I goota go and play tennis, get exercised and all that...

Scientists are beginning to study the brains of people who have unusual experiences or who are trained in various forms of meditation. There are certain types of experiences, such as deja vu, jamais vu, or extreme depersonalization, that are already known to be caused by temporal lobe seizures. THere was a recent report of a person undergoing neurosurgery whose "out-of-body" neurons were stimulated while the surgeons were probing for functional areas. (It happened repeatedly, with each stimulation) I think it was in the deep temporal lobe. Buddhist monks who are deeply trained in a type of meditation aimed at increasing inner peace and outer awareness show a very different pattern of brainwaves (higher frequency than nml, and in different areas) than "regular" people. And certain type of manias (orographia) which tend to focus on religious or spiritual themes, are also a form of seizure. Even that "moving towards the light" that dying people have reported is hypothesized to be a form of neural shutdown.

Religion has long used trances, herbs, meditation and so forth to communicate with the "Spirit world". We now understand that peyote, for example, is a simple hallucinogen. Some of these paranormal experiences, as convincing as they are to the experiencer, may be nothing much more than a brain glitch.

Signy! "Brain glitch?" Ouch! Seriously, you can be pretty cutting sometimes, you know that? You gotta understand though, from where I sit, your comments on the spirit world and temporal lobe seizures would be pretty insulting if they weren't so...well, silly really.

It's like somebody trying to tell me that Spain doesn't exist because they've never been there. Oh, and then they go on to say that none of the people they respect (who haven't been there either, of course) also deny Spain's existence. Well, I've been there. Several people who have contributed to this thread have been to this "Spain" I'm talking about as well. You seem pretty closed to the idea of "Spain." Is that true?

Yes, there are brain malfunctions that resemble in some ways some aspects of paranormal experience, but an actual experience--such as ConnorFlynn described--is a lot more complicated and coherent than a "brain glitch." To return to my light-hearted metaphor, it's as if my Spain-denying friend tried to prove her point by saying that airports aren't even really airports at all, they're actually just malls. She shows me a picture of a mall and a picture of an airport terminal and says, "See, see, the same!" Well, yeah, it's the same, except for the runways and plains and these two tickets to Spain in my pocket!

Here's a thing: one thing that paranormal experiences have in common, what basically renders them "para" in the first place, is that they are all what I would call phenomenologically "shy." More often than not they involve an encounter with non-human consciousness. This non-human consciousness I would characterize as "choosy." These things don't just manifest for anybody. And they don't have a schedule. People try to "believe" in them and wish them into manifesting, but all too often that just gets them mired in illusion.

So this Spain of mine is "shy." The harsh light of day sends it into hiding. And in the dark of night, of course, it's too dark to see anything. The best time to see "Spain" then, is at Twilight. All the drugs and other devices used by seers over the centuries are designed not to create a "Spain" but to create a kind of mental twilight where Spain is visible. It is a comparatively susceptible state of mind (you're high!), but it is not mere abandonment of reason to the seer. That's why seers practice meditations and such, so that they can exercise the extraordinary discernment needed to see clearly in the twilight.

So, in a way, your "brain glitch" also creates this mental twilight. All of these things come under the general heading of "derangement of the senses." But when there's nothing there to see, all you get is the glitch, the derangement. Similarly, if you take payote without training and purpose, you just get high.

This is the part when I argue for the existence of God. If we argue about the existence of God, one of us is gonna be wrong and one of us is gonna be right and neither of us will truly prove it to the other until the end of time. What I can do is hope to open up the possibility to you that I might be right.

I'll start with a rhetorical question: what kind of a thing is God, anyway? I'm gonna take a stab at this and say, God is a certain kind of emotion. Now of course, you can't force emotions. You can't know when they'll show themselves and when they won't. Sometimes you can't even tell what emotion you're feeling. Some cultures, some individuals have more difficulty than others expressing or even being aware of certain emotions. Some cultures have a real problem dealing with shame. Our culture has a hell of a time with grieving. Some people never cry. Some people will never admit that they're angry, even to themselves.

Here's a thing: most people I've met who deny God, have a real aversion to "surrender." It's hard for them to see anything positive about "surrender." And yet the authentic experience of God is preceeded by an act of surrender. People who deny God tend to see surrender as simply "giving up." So, hypothetically then, if they never surrender, then they will surely never know God.

How can you be sure that God is not simply something you have yet to experience? Or something that you associate with such negative value that you are constitutionally unable and unwilling to explore it?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 12:45 AM

SigmaNunki wrote:

Quote:

It isn't so much that science ignores this, it's that it isn't reproducable. Which is what science is based on. ie I come up with theory X, which I then do experiments to prove. If I am succesful, I publish the results and then other people will do the same experiment testing the results as well as others making other experiments to test the same theory. If all goes well then it is accepted and the cycle continues.

The problem with the experiences described here, is that they are not reproducable. They are different every time. Thus evading science's methodes.

even when I wrote that, I knew it wasn't totally accurate..so I'm going to wax a little.

There is a part of the science community that is reactionary..and what I mean by that is that since the Rennisance days when coming out of the Dark Ages where religion was such a stifling and intergrated part of peoples lives, people couldn't sneeze without there being some religious reason for it.everything had a religious bent, or could be explained or reasoned away by relgion.

The Scientific community took on a reactionary stance to anything that might be misconstured or taken as religion..and that is one of the main reasons why the scientific community does not actively focus on the spirtual/ metaphysical part of life( not to say that there aren't scientist out there who don't have an intrest, but for the most part paranormal spirtual metaphysical matters are not highly looked on so to speak)

but no matter how much the scientific community might like to shuck those matters off, they can't because that is the duelity of our nature..its who we are..

I do believe that in time the scientific community will move away from this reactionary way ..but its not going to happen overnight..scientist aren't going to have a choice, we are spirtual beings in a physical body in the material world there is a duelity there..and by just focusing on one aspect the physical, it is not going to provide the answers nor will the puzzle ever be complete if they do so they will be forced to deal with it eventually one way or another.

Not to say that some things aren't brain glitch's to use that as an example, not every experience that a person has is spirtual metaphysical in nature..but there are a percentage of them that are..and ignoring that or not dealing with it or tossing it aside , isn't going to make it not so..eventually it will have to be dealt with..so I don't exactly know if ignoring is the right word..when it comes to the scientic community, its not even so much that its not being ignored as much as it is just being kept quite , because if its not reproducable then whats the point.

But you can see how this reactionary attitude leave people feeling there is much left to be desired, it just doesn't cut it, telling someone they just had a brain glitch doesn't add up..Its a very glib and sort of arrogant way of dismissing their experience because it can't be reproduced by any current methods or explained..right!!

(There has to be an awareness and an acknowlegement of the spirtual metaphysical, so that everything won't be chalked up to something physical )

Its really sad..because we need science ..we need you guys..and we need you badly

Is it any wonder that people turn to religion, and what a disservice that is, because nothing will screw you up faster and have you more confused then religion.

Its not exspected of the scientific community to have all the answers....this should be a learning process as much as much as it can..we want and need to understand..but what we do need is a concentrated effort and acknowlegement..we don't need your reaction to past events.

I think most people turn to religion, not just out of ignorance and fear ..but also because there is little else to help them to truly understand these things.

We are spirtual beings..but in this civilzation we go about our lives somewhat disconneted from that part of ourselves, we don't really talk about these things we just keep it inside we keep it to ourselves..we should be asking ourselves why?

I said the scientific community is reacting to past events, thats only partly true..they are also reacting to the religious establishment who say they believe in the exsistence of an all knowing all seeing all powerful deity a supreme being they call God/ Christ/ but it seems even they believe more in the idea of this deity then they do the actual God.

So if the establishment doesn't really seem to believe in the God they claim exsist..and is heavily invested in not just the idea of God, but their version of god

Why should the scientific community taint themselves by devulging in such matters..Why when its all so mucky

Because again..The spirtual/metaphysical is not Religion, the spirt is something that exsist inside of us, and is seperate from Religion..Religion may take on spirtuality, but the spirt does not need religion ...and who better to make that distinction then the scientific community...

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 11:22 AM

@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another

My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.

But, to be certain, I think that one day we'll have it figured this all out one way or another. But, I do know that people *are* doing this research. Don't make the mistake that because it isn't in "mainstream science" that it isn't being looked at.

One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.

So, if you have a way to make anything in this realm reproducible, then in all seriousness, I'd like to hear it. I'd like to try it and see if I can do it. If I can, I'll get my wife to try too. If we can then we can try to get others (ones with open minds) to do it to. Once something like this happens then, and only then will it be persuded in earnest by the scientific community.

Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.

And yes, this should be talked about more

----
"Canada being mad at you is like Mr. Rogers throwing a brick through your window." -Jon Stewart, The Daily Show

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 2:38 PM

Quote:

@PirateJenny:
Not to be snide here, but I'm not really sure that you read my post, or at least the part you quoted. It is my belief that you've become reactionary in your response because I've taken a different stance than you have. That or we are having one hell of a time getting across to one another My stance in one sentence is at the end of the post.

I read all of your post and I apolojise if I didn't make myself clear, I have no problem with you having a diffrent stance and I welcome anything you have to say on the subject because I find it interesting, and respect your opinion, so I'll try to address the issue as best I can.

Quote:
One of the problems that you don't seem to be acknowledging is reproducibility. As stated before, this is the reason why most people don't take such things seriously. Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.

I understand what your saying about reproducibilty, and that these experiences aren't reproducable at least at this time..I understand that..and although my response was reactionary, it wasn't to your post...it was to the scientific community as a whole.

I did acknowlege that there are scientist doing research on this subject..of course they are, but I guess what I should have just come out and said was, yes even though its not reproducable..why isn't it main stream..actually my whole post was about the reason why its not mainstream, and I could very well be wrong but I'm of the opinion that it has less to do with reproducablity and more to do with reaction, and thats because the scientific community has taken a reactionary stance to anything that might be miscontrued as religion..wether or not its reproducable or not(because in the past such matters were a high priority to the scientific community)

I understand that your saying unless the scientific community has something to show, the public, that says ..yep..see here..this is true because look we can prove it, that they don't want to come out.

But don't we have to start somewhere!!

as you know and say... this subject is being researched,that being so.. any light that can be shed on it is just as great a benifit to mankind as knowlege of a cure for cancer..more so even.

the point I was trying to make was..wether or not any of the paranormal metaphysical experiences can be reproduced or not, its still something thats going to have to be dealt with..there is no getting around it because its here it exsist..and a way to start doing that is acknowleging it and being aware of it, thats laying the ground work and giving a foundation to build upon..

If the scientific community did this, maybe more people would talk about it and feel ok talking about it and most people would know that this stuff isn't uncommon..and we might be one step closer to figuring this stuff out.

Quote:
Science is based on the idea of reproducibility. If it isn't there, then science can say nothing, nor do anything about it. It's one of its limiting factors.

I'm just a layman, you are the scientist, but I wasn't aware of limitations being put on science, I always thought science was about knowlege and truth..and as a scientist you went wherever that took you , I didn't know as a scientist you said I'm going to limit myself to this or that..

I always thought if something did not work then you searched for something that did work, you didn't say no I can't do this or test that because its outside of the box..no pun intended but I thought science was about going where no one has gone before..if you have to go down the yellow brick road to find answers..then thats what you did..if thats where you have to go to prove something or find answers thats what you did!

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 4:11 PM

HKCAVALIER

Quote:
Originally posted by SigmaNunki:
Basically,
all attempts to reproduce this have yet to be successful. Change that, you create a new field of science.

Rupert Sheldrake is doing all kinds of research with all kinds of repeatable results about ESP in humans and animals, but he is totally marginalized outside the "new age" community and is laughed at. The theory that humans went through a semiaquatic stage of developement during the "missing link" period is overwhelmingly supported by morphology and no one's heard of it. Chromozonal evidence that the oldest humans were from Australia is marginalized because of the Leakey Foundation and common prejudice that the most primitive humans must have been African.

No, the scientific method does not prescribe these prejudices, but human ego and rigidity do. Science can be used just like any other institution to control ideas and information and make the powerful more so.

Why are we still talking about this?

HKCavalier

Hey, hey, hey, don't be mean. We don't have to be mean, because, remember, no matter where you go, there you are.

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Tuesday, December 7, 2004 4:40 PM